Small arms and Light Weapons

[Aditya Ballal]

Sorry the center one is Romanian. Its becauee the flag colour got blurred i thought otherwise. Btw the ones with Ak are said to be from Ukraine.

This seems more plausible

 

[Kchontha]

Big bro of asmi..

 

[FalconSlayers]

Big bro of asmi..

View attachment 99308

APC9?

 

[Kchontha]

Sorry I was referring to this one.

 

[Tactical Doge]

APC9?

APC9 Short barreled version probably

 

[Johny_Baba]

That wasn't my point dude. Fact is: pick any large Army in the world, they will have their own Country's assault rifles as standard.
US: M4A1
Rus: AK-12
China: QBZ 95/191
UK: SA 80

If you see the bigger picture, arming a large army with phoren rifle isn't very good move by any Govt in the world as a lot of funds are given away which are never gonna return back. Another reason is Self Pride. These are particular reasons why India had chosen to go ahead with INSAS.
Now my question: What did we gain with our learnings??
PHASE 1: India adpots INSAS 1A. 1999 Kargil shows INSAS's shortcomings as a poor quality rifle with myriads of issues.
PHASE 2: INSAS 1B gets created that solves most of the issues with 1A instead of jamming and cracking of mags. Root cause: Poor Polymer used for mags that cannot withstand heavy torturous Army usage, poor quality of M85 Ball ammos created by OFB which mostly resulted in failure to feed and eject.
PHASE 3: Ammo quality is improved by OFB and max INSAS rifles are either repaired or replsced by 1B1. No one talks about how much INSAS improved since Kargil and top Army brass cook their Rotis on a false agenda of INSAS being faulty albeit due to phoren maal ka nasha.
PHASE 4: DRDO and OFB improve on INSAS making Excalibur which has vastly improved over INSAS in terms of functionality. Excalibur performs excellently during test but top brass is not impressed.

Finally INSAS's image is tarnished as a Global failure. Fun fact: most jamming of INSAS was due to poor maintenance practice by users themselves as they had previously used low maintenance SLRs and AKs.

I would like to bring all ya'll notice towards our rival CHINA here:

PHASE 1: China gets their AKM pattern rifle TOT from Soviet. They call it the Type 56. Mass production is made of this rifle and given to entire PLA.
View attachment 99037

This serves well for around 20 years but they do not stop.

PHASE 2: Seeing the shortfall of 7.62x39, China tries to modify the Type 56 to get more range by increasing barrel length of existing design alongwith some other mods like retractable stock. They call this Type 81s and intend to use this as their standard rifle.

View attachment 99038

PHASE 3: Again after few years and running a parallel project of 5.8x42mm cartridge(after getting influenced by 5.45x39mm), China tries their hands on a bullpup design rifle using 7.62x39. Idea here is that it should have interchangeable parts with AK like bolt, mags, bolt carrier, etc. They mostly import this to US and get good feedback(be it in limited numbers). This is called Type 86s. The advent of a very popular bullpup rifle.
View attachment 99039

PHASE 4: Norinco goes full scale on QBZ development and the new 5.8x42 mm bullet. All sorts of tests are conducted and finally QBZ-95 gets selected as standard assault rifle for PLA and other forces. Also, a civilian version called T-97 NSR is created that chambers 5.56 NATO. Alongwith this, a sniper of same QB family called QBU-88 gets inducted too.
View attachment 99040
View attachment 99041

PHASE 5: China again does a lot of R&D( espionage) and finally modifies their existing rifle to now use conventional AR design. Not much is known but the rifle is called QBZ-191 and will replace QBZ-95.
View attachment 99043

As you can see, at no point did China abandon their rifle project, neither they got inclined towards Phoren rifles like India is doing.
This has saved them millions of dollars infact.
Had INSAS followed the same route and was supported by Army, we could've saved our money and kept our pride.

This is one of those post that made me do this


Like seriously dude ? The amount of factual errors is just too much...

>Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase this that , INSAS 1A in Kargil ? Phase 2 INSAS 1B solved most problems blah blah ?

It was all 1B INSAS since its induction...just refer to this pic from Hand-In-Hand 2014 Exercise with Choyneez,

Kargil happened in 1999

Phase 3 muh improved INSAS 1B1 ?
Ok then have you read that article ( The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise on IndiansForGuns forum ) where Cottage Cheese wrote extensively about quality of this same 1B1 INSAS ?

and all these choyneez praising for theise so called PHASE WISE development of their firearms from Type-56 to current QBZ-191 and other ramblings...

As mentioned by @Twinblade and others, Type-81 wasn't just Type-56 with long barrel and new stock but actually Kalashnikov-ised-SKS pattern rifle, with short stroke gas piston system from SKS and AK style bolt + bolt carrier+trigger group again in SKS shell...and Type-81 wasn't first such AK-SKS Hybrid from choyneez side, first one was Type-63

This one became their secondary rifle but suffered many problems of cracking mainly due to its wooden construction, hence another project started that aimed to replace Type-56 (both AK and SKS) and these Type-63, result was Type-81

Oh and Type 86S ? It never was supposed to be a mlitary rifle rather a novelty civilian export gun based on bullpup-ised Type-56-1 prototype...they also made Type 84S in 5.56 NATO and Type 88S in 5.45x39mm...all civilian firearms for Amreeki market...SO WHAT IS THIS PHASE 3 SHIT ? "Amreeki feedback" was never point when their own military rejected it and why even bother with US civvie feedback when all the so called feedback they needed they had already received in Vietnam war with Type-56...That too from actual military personnel...They never asked for such phoren feedback (that too civilian one) for Type-81, QBZ-95, QBZ-03 or any other firearm matlab kuchh bhi...

PHASE 4 QBZ PART...i shall talk on it later as most has been covered by @ketaki (Hong-Kong Parade part, choyna being image-conscious with their existing kommie-looking firearms and so) but there are lots of other info here than that, all i would like to inform in brief for now is,
at least this whitecollar guy is factually correct with developmental history of 5.8x42mm being started in early 80s (actually in 1978 but you get the idea) and ended in 1987, but be assured QBZ-95 wasn't first military rifle in 5.8x42mm rather it was again Type-81 made in that caliber, named Type-87 (same year when 5.8x42mm development finished)

This Type-87 was also used to create a parallel LMG version of Type-81 LMG in newer 5.8x42mm calibre and so, was pushed further into development of a "modern looking" rifle for Hong-Kong and so (as far as i know they tried at least 4 different pattern of furnitures and some external tweakings to give it more "modern" look) and in 1989 they even started delivery of Type-87 (with different furniture-buttstock than one shown ^here^ in pic) but ultimately another parallel project that emphasised on Bullpup design won over due to reasons and that too went through external changes and became what we know as QBZ-95...this is why many people who're into guns say it (indirectly) that perhaps QBZ-95 wouldn't have happened if it was not for Hong-Kong and so...
SO WHERE IS THIS "AMREEKI FEEDBACK" FROM TYPE-86S BULLPUP AK COMING AND PLAYING PART IN DEVELOPMENT OF QBZ-95 THING HERE ?!

PHASE 5 THING...imma just avoid it after reading other parts...

so,
> inventing own things outta just wikipedia-level reading, many way factually incorrect
> USING ^IT^ TO ATTACK INDIAN ARMY FOR FAILURES OF INSAS despite having no direct relation, or there being so so many things to cover, AND EVEN BEING FACTUALLY INCORRECT HERE

Now i do approve your POV of using homemade weapons and sense of self-pride in it, prime example being Japanese, who use M1 Garands = their once enemy's firearms in parades instead of their own Arisakas,

But i won't tolerate unnecessary attacking on Indian Army BASED ON SOME SELF-CONCEIVED MYTHS OF THEIR (CHOYNEEZ) SMALL ARMS DEVELOPMENT TO DISS ON OUR ARMY FOR ISSUES ON INSAS!
Discussions, based on logical and factual things are always welcomed but not such things...

and nobody objected to this post except @Twinblade who pointed out error with Type-81...@ezsasa see this is why i once ranted about too much bakchodi on this thread and requested for some moderation...because then THIS kinda posts happen...lots of raita gets felaoed and people keep adding their posts of how army doesn't care army this that reeeeeeee rants.

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Johny_Baba until today i was in the belief that production of SLRs were stopped when the prodcution of insas started. But today i came across one L1 model with OFB 2012 wrotten over it. Also OFB have been producing buttstocks in desert tan colour for SLR unlike the usual orange, plum coloured ones.Also one weapon have green colour paint and sadly it was repainted with orange colour (the very same 'baby poop colour' found in rhodesian Fals which was shown in Larry vickers show).
Couldn't take the pics though due to some reasons.

Yeah i think some factory under OFB still lists SLR on their product list and in past they exported SLR "kits" to west (mainly retired rifles but some were also new stuff) for their civilian market consumption so very well possible that it is still being manufactured,
after all many police units,CAPF units etc are using these SLRs so they may require replacement parts and things for that so yeah.

 

[Johny_Baba]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/06/25/tinck-direct-impingement-ak/
@Johny_Baba @Gessler

This seems like short-storke system using longer 'gas port' (using a tube) than actual Direct Impingement gas system...even in video the guy is referring that piston as 'short stroke gas piston' which is factually correct, neither is that a stoner pattern gas system so yeah...i guess it's marketing gimmick,
apart from them nice system.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

@Johny_Baba is there any scope for modernisation of INSAS like MLOK chassis or other equivalents, like how M4 and AK variants can be modernised ? Are the reliability problems of older INSAS rifles in the newer ones?

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Modernised Bulgarian Arsenal, look at those barrel cover looks good.

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Johny_Baba is there any scope for modernisation of INSAS like MLOK chassis or other equivalents, like how M4 and AK variants can be modernised ? Are the reliability problems of older INSAS rifles in the newer ones?

Already available but people made fun of it citing whatever things they had in mind...

Not a whole replacement chassy but still worth consideration,
but if you're asking for a full package with new receiver etc, then yes it can very well be done, in fact i had some of my own ideas for that but let's just say the ship has already sailed for INSAS.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Modernised Bulgarian Arsenal, look at those barrel cover looks good.
View attachment 99358

The fire selector looks weird

 

[another_armchair]

Any videos of Asmi spitting lead?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why yes it was indeed offered to the French when they were finding a replacement for FAMAS, and finally two contenders were left,
one was HK416A5's custom variant made for French forces,named HK416F
other was of course VHS-2, which had better chance over 416F because basic handling,ergonomics etc were quite similar to older FAMAS
but then like everywhere,politikz got involved and 416F was chosen over VHS-2.

Refer to this article (do use translator for better overview) - https://web.archive.org/web/2016070...amas-le-vhs-2-croate-meme-pas-peur-des-grands

Yes one problem newly formed Iraqi army (of Republic) faced was lack of registration of firearms in armed forces during Saddam times, like they evaluated remaining kalashnikovs post all war stuff and outta bunch of some 1 and half lakh AK pattern rifles of different patterns only 12000 some were found to be registered or so,
this was the 'babu' reason for mass modernisation in post Saddam iraq that pushed for modern firearms, with that Iraqi army opted chance to get a proper modern rifle, comparable to western standards etc and VHS-2 emerged victorious of their requirements, Croats were able to sold about 1 Lakh of these in very first batch.

While same rifle was also "this" near to become next standard issue rifle of the French (because originally VHS, first variant of this rifle, was heavily based on original FAMAS in terms of looks-controll etc) owning to commonality part for training, but then politics got involved and HK416F = a "tailor-made" variant of HK4165 was selected over it.
Some legionnaires who were able to test it in Afghanistan, by courtesy of Croatian soldiers of course, praised it a lot and wished it was selected over HK416's french variant...but....sigh
(^Source of above claim = Youtube comments of Larry Vickers video of VHS-2)

My previous posts on Croatian VHS-2 and the French FAMAS replacement..
...guess we finally get some videos on it from Ian Mcollum himself

 

[FalconSlayers]

Modernised Bulgarian Arsenal, look at those barrel cover looks good.
View attachment 99358

That fire selector looks far better than normal finger tabs on AKs produced by Kalashnikov Concern’s Izhmash factory lol.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I saw a video somewhere...it said that PLA did not want a notorious AK type rifle to be seen during Hong Kong handover in 90s in the hands of their soldiers... Thus... “cool looking” , “futuristic” QBZ 95

Apparently their bullpup wasn't a success story and they have finally moved to conventional AR derivative like us.

 

[Whitecollar]

This is one of those post that made me do this


Like seriously dude ? The amount of factual errors is just too much...

>Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase this that , INSAS 1A in Kargil ? Phase 2 INSAS 1B solved most problems blah blah ?

It was all 1B INSAS since its induction...just refer to this pic from Hand-In-Hand 2014 Exercise with Choyneez,
View attachment 99321
Kargil happened in 1999

Phase 3 muh improved INSAS 1B1 ?
Ok then have you read that article ( The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise on IndiansForGuns forum ) where Cottage Cheese wrote extensively about quality of this same 1B1 INSAS ?
View attachment 99322

and all these choyneez praising for theise so called PHASE WISE development of their firearms from Type-56 to current QBZ-191 and other ramblings...

As mentioned by @Twinblade and others, Type-81 wasn't just Type-56 with long barrel and new stock but actually Kalashnikov-ised-SKS pattern rifle, with short stroke gas piston system from SKS and AK style bolt + bolt carrier+trigger group again in SKS shell...and Type-81 wasn't first such AK-SKS Hybrid from choyneez side, first one was Type-63
View attachment 99339
This one became their secondary rifle but suffered many problems of cracking mainly due to its wooden construction, hence another project started that aimed to replace Type-56 (both AK and SKS) and these Type-63, result was Type-81

Oh and Type 86S ? It never was supposed to be a mlitary rifle rather a novelty civilian export gun based on bullpup-ised Type-56-1 prototype...they also made Type 84S in 5.56 NATO and Type 88S in 5.45x39mm...all civilian firearms for Amreeki market...SO WHAT IS THIS PHASE 3 SHIT ? "Amreeki feedback" was never point when their own military rejected it and why even bother with US civvie feedback when all the so called feedback they needed they had already received in Vietnam war with Type-56...That too from actual military personnel...They never asked for such phoren feedback (that too civilian one) for Type-81, QBZ-95, QBZ-03 or any other firearm matlab kuchh bhi...

PHASE 4 QBZ PART...i shall talk on it later as most has been covered by @ketaki (Hong-Kong Parade part, choyna being image-conscious with their existing kommie-looking firearms and so) but there are lots of other info here than that, all i would like to inform in brief for now is,
at least this whitecollar guy is factually correct with developmental history of 5.8x42mm being started in early 80s (actually in 1978 but you get the idea) and ended in 1987, but be assured QBZ-95 wasn't first military rifle in 5.8x42mm rather it was again Type-81 made in that caliber, named Type-87 (same year when 5.8x42mm development finished)
View attachment 99349
This Type-87 was also used to create a parallel LMG version of Type-81 LMG in newer 5.8x42mm calibre and so, was pushed further into development of a "modern looking" rifle for Hong-Kong and so (as far as i know they tried at least 4 different pattern of furnitures and some external tweakings to give it more "modern" look) and in 1989 they even started delivery of Type-87 (with different furniture-buttstock than one shown ^here^ in pic) but ultimately another parallel project that emphasised on Bullpup design won over due to reasons and that too went through external changes and became what we know as QBZ-95...this is why many people who're into guns say it (indirectly) that perhaps QBZ-95 wouldn't have happened if it was not for Hong-Kong and so...
SO WHERE IS THIS "AMREEKI FEEDBACK" FROM TYPE-86S BULLPUP AK COMING AND PLAYING PART IN DEVELOPMENT OF QBZ-95 THING HERE ?!

PHASE 5 THING...imma just avoid it after reading other parts...

so,
> inventing own things outta just wikipedia-level reading, many way factually incorrect
> USING ^IT^ TO ATTACK INDIAN ARMY FOR FAILURES OF INSAS despite having no direct relation, or there being so so many things to cover, AND EVEN BEING FACTUALLY INCORRECT HERE

Now i do approve your POV of using homemade weapons and sense of self-pride in it, prime example being Japanese, who use M1 Garands = their once enemy's firearms in parades instead of their own Arisakas,

But i won't tolerate unnecessary attacking on Indian Army BASED ON SOME SELF-CONCEIVED MYTHS OF THEIR (CHOYNEEZ) SMALL ARMS DEVELOPMENT TO DISS ON OUR ARMY FOR ISSUES ON INSAS!
Discussions, based on logical and factual things are always welcomed but not such things...

and nobody objected to this post except @Twinblade who pointed out error with Type-81...@ezsasa see this is why i once ranted about too much bakchodi on this thread and requested for some moderation...because then THIS kinda posts happen...lots of raita gets felaoed and people keep adding their posts of how army doesn't care army this that reeeeeeee rants.

Understandable...I'll see myself out of this forum.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Any videos of Asmi spitting lead?

It will spit oil before it spits lead, so that the import lobby can get hold of more MP9s for Indian Army .

 

[Tactical Doge]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

SLR launching Grenades using Blank firing
Cool video

 

[Kchontha]

Everybody from a to z is modernizing their respective assault rifles but except insas. So pity.