Small arms and Light Weapons

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Johny_Baba

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When I meant similar I meant , that barring the charging handle, the externals are similar to existing Sig firearms as mentioned by themselves in their own promotional videos and they them selves have said there are common parts with the MCX and 7.62 nato pattern rifles of sig which I’m assuming is the 716, so it won’t be a massive training jump for troops if and when they switch to this.
Their rationale of using 6.8x51mm round is to maintain commonality with existing 7.62 NATO platforms. Again not my words, this is the words of the Sig rep on the YouTube channel Task and Purpose.
I see, what this Sig rep might try to convince was perhaps that overall handling and basic field-strip level maintenance of their NGSW-R would be similar to existing AR pattern rifles (MCX, 716/716i etc) from their side, i think, so yeah commonality would be there in terms of basic training-handling and such things,

rest based on my observation of their patents of NGSW-R and existing designs of MCX, SIG716i etc so it doesn't seem to me that there is much common between the two - a salesman chhap rep might not be aware of all these details he may just blabber whatever was told to him by his superiors etc
 

ezsasa

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Do you guys think we dropped the ball to early on the MCIWS platform(not talking about the multi caliber feature), since it’s one of the few ARDE platforms that can be modernised or do we just give up on indigenously designed firearms and atleast hope for indigenously manufactured firearms instead?
Will we face any problems with spares for firearms if we ever face sanctions or blockades if we buy or locally manufacture firearms like the SIG 716i? Are they as dependent on foreign spares like high end weapon platforms like fighter jets etc, can they weed out a long time without needing too much imports?
@Johny_Baba and other senior members what do you guys think?
At a high level, In 2015 your concern might have been valid. But 2021, Indian industry has reached a stage where they can deliver anything MoD asks them to deliver spare parts wise. so blockade will not be an issue.

as far building a domestic assault rifle platform is concerned, even if MCIWS was missed in the last round whenever IA wants this project reopened it would not be an issue. valid product may not have come out of it, but all the IP is still there with ARDE. but globally it looks like multical chapter is closed.

Since the global military theatre is shifting to Indo-Pacific, now requirements will be as per this theatre.
 

FalconSlayers

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At a high level, In 2015 your concern might have been valid. But 2021, Indian industry has reached a stage where they can deliver anything MoD asks them to deliver spare parts wise. so blockade will not be an issue.

as far building a domestic assault rifle platform is concerned, even if MCIWS was missed in the last round whenever IA wants this project reopened it would not be an issue. valid product may not have come out of it, but all the IP is still there with ARDE. but globally it looks like multical chapter is closed.

Since the global military theatre is shifting to Indo-Pacific, now requirements will be as per this theatre.
Do we produce the ammo of the Russian guns here or we import it?
 

Aditya Ballal

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ALBY

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@shuvo@y2k10 remember previous chats on AEK-971 // A-545 pattern balanced recoil rifles ?
now there is an english video on AK-107 civilian version, Kalashnikov SR-1
Too complicated to strip off.
If its too slick to shoot why its not mass produce d or even given for Special forces atleast if cost is an issue. Iirc there was some article some years back that due to its balanced recoil mechanism its not that much reliable for general use unlike competitive shooting. I dont recall the exact specifics as i am not that aversed in tech data.
Btw its too dusturbing to see an Ak with that AR kinda foregrips which hides the gastube and mounting of foresight above the gastube/foregrip.😄.. Utter crap if looked from a purist's pov🤭
 

Johny_Baba

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Too complicated to strip off.
If its too slick to shoot why its not mass produce d or even given for Special forces atleast if cost is an issue. Iirc there was some article some years back that due to its balanced recoil mechanism its not that much reliable for general use unlike competitive shooting. I dont recall the exact specifics as i am not that aversed in tech data.
Btw its too dusturbing to see an Ak with that AR kinda foregrips which hides the gastube and mounting of foresight above the gastube/foregrip.😄.. Utter crap if looked from a purist's pov🤭
naa bhaee koi komplicated nhi hain...AK jaisa hi hain bas upar ke counter-recoil piston assembly part ko upar uthana hain toh uske saath waale ratchet se alag ho jaaega neeche wala,
fir aage kr ke nikal lo counter-recoil piston assembly ko,
aur neeche ka AK jaisa hi hain remove spring-pull out bolt carrier etc...
if you want actual vdo then i happen to have an android app with AK-107 in it 😪 only i don't have peecee powerful enough to run current gen android emulator on it to run whole thing in it, record it etc, will still try.

as for "AR kinda foregrips"...well...didn't you ask for 'free-floating barrel' on a Kalashnikov (barring usual gas piston limitations, of course) then just observe this design, it is exactly what you asked for - handguards are locked on receiver rather than barrel + no iron sight block or other such fixature on barrel...rather the place where typical iron sight block would be is now being utilised as a boxy-"U"-shaped holder to keep working parts together when it is covered with handguards+top cover...so it's even more simplified than an AK in terms of parts...
1625407740453.png

...hope it answered some of the parts of AK free-floating barrel setups
 
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shuvo@y2k10

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naa bhaee koi komplicated nhi hain...AK jaisa hi hain bas upar ke counter-recoil piston assembly part ko upar uthana hain toh uske saath waale ratchet se alag ho jaaega neeche wala,
fir aage kr ke nikal lo counter-recoil piston assembly ko,
aur neeche ka AK jaisa hi hain remove spring-pull out bolt carrier etc...
if you want actual vdo then i happen to have an android app with AK-107 in it 😪 only i don't have peecee powerful enough to run current gen android emulator on it to run whole thing in it, record it etc, will still try.

as for "AR kinda foregrips"...well...didn't you ask for 'free-floating barrel' on a Kalashnikov (barring usual gas piston limitations, of course) then just observe this design, it is exactly what you asked for - handguards are locked on receiver rather than barrel + no iron sight block or other such fixature on barrel...rather the place where typical iron sight block would be is now being utilised as a boxy-"U"-shaped holder to keep working parts together when it is covered with handguards+top cover...so it's even more simplified than an AK in terms of parts...
View attachment 98183
...hope it answered some of the parts of AK free-floating barrel setups
Can the counter-recoil psiton assembly be integrated with short-stroke piston and DI based rifles?
 

ALBY

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naa bhaee koi komplicated nhi hain...AK jaisa hi hain bas upar ke counter-recoil piston assembly part ko upar uthana hain toh uske saath waale ratchet se alag ho jaaega neeche wala,
fir aage kr ke nikal lo counter-recoil piston assembly ko,
aur neeche ka AK jaisa hi hain remove spring-pull out bolt carrier etc...
if you want actual vdo then i happen to have an android app with AK-107 in it 😪 only i don't have peecee powerful enough to run current gen android emulator on it to run whole thing in it, record it etc, will still try.

as for "AR kinda foregrips"...well...didn't you ask for 'free-floating barrel' on a Kalashnikov (barring usual gas piston limitations, of course) then just observe this design, it is exactly what you asked for - handguards are locked on receiver rather than barrel + no iron sight block or other such fixature on barrel...rather the place where typical iron sight block would be is now being utilised as a boxy-"U"-shaped holder to keep working parts together when it is covered with handguards+top cover...so it's even more simplified than an AK in terms of parts...
View attachment 98183
...hope it answered some of the parts of AK free-floating barrel setups
Can u make a comparison between this one and AEK-971? In videos these weapons are super cool but other than just few pieces distributed for some units no major purchase for any units even in Russia. Even Kalashnikov is not displaying Ak-107/08 series in their stalls nowdays.
 
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Johny_Baba

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Can the counter-recoil psiton assembly be integrated with short-stroke piston and DI based rifles?
Short-Stroke gas system, maybe, in essense AK style system is also short stroking in terms of push provided by expanding gases (once they are vented outside there isn't gas pressure impinging upon piston-or in extension-working parts) but the attached piston having its own mass+momentum adds upon entire cycling parts giving it slight momentum and so, creating this pattern of longer stroke,

so in essense if one detaches gas pistons attached to working parts and puts opposite-facing gas pistons on some sorta interlinked working parts set-one is normal recoiling+bolt and firing parts and other is counter-recoiling one with equivalent mass to mitigate recoil, then yes it *might* be possible, albeit complex.

As for DI, not sure, but mostly nay bekoze DI, and here i mean AR pattern one with reverse piston on its bolt type system, requires pushes of expanding gases impinging upon working parts to push it rearwards and here push of expanding gases is inline to the barrel...how could you link a counter-recoiling mass in this case is a mechanical challenge i.e. an inline counter-recoiling mass to barrel itself, getting my point ?

But owning to its inline rearward push to the barrel itself i don't think it would be feasible to put such complex thing together to mitigate excess recoil...just strengthened recoil spring (to dampen recoil if it's hard) or better, a gas regulator (to control flow and amount of gases impinging upon working parts) would be enough.

Though i'd also like to say that i'm not a mechanical engineer or expert on the subject so miracles can very well happen with such things i'm just not aware of it or rather able to think about such mechanical arrangement.
 

Johny_Baba

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Can u make a comparison between this one and AEK-971? In videos these weapons are super cool but other than just few pieces distributed for some units no major purchase for any units even in Russia. Even Kalashnikov is not displaying Ak-107/08 series in their stalls nowdays.
Difference is in kind of gas pistons arrangement used in both,
AK-107 (i'd like to mention here AK is not Avtomat Kalashnikova = Kalashnikov's Automatic but Aleksandrov/Kalashnikov = Alexandrov/Kalashnikov's, named after a junior engineer Yury Alexandrov who worked in then Izhmash plant, designed this pattern of counter-recoiling mass system but used AK pattern rifle to implement it, so yeah) one uses two separate pistons+two separate recoil springs (and of course dual-venting gas block to provide push to each oppositely facing pistons) interlinked together sorta system, syncronised using a set of rack-and-pinion mechanism

1625428148446.png

1 = bolt carrier with recoiling pison, AK style long storke one in essense
2 = recoil spring of number 1, very much AK styled
3 = Counter-Recoiling Piston + circular rack-surace on it
4 = Return Spring pf number 3
5 = pinion mechanism for interlinking number 1 with number 3, having circular gear/pinion, housed inside this H-shaped block

6 = U-shaped mount to affix everything in place, number 5 sandwiched between number 1's gas piston+rack surfaces below and number 3's gas piston+rack surfaces above, everything affixed on number 6 mount
7 = NOT A GAS TUBE but Π - shaped Top Cover to cover number 1+ number 5 + number 3 sandwich mounted on number 6
8 = another Top Cover, this one is very much AK styled as you could see it
9 = double-venting gas block, T-shaped, vents gases on opposite top sides that impinges upon pistons attached to number 1 and number 3 in respective sides etc



AEK-971 (Avtomat, Yedinyy, Koksharov = Koksharov's common rifle) or its current version A-545//A-762 (number denote calibers) system is simliar in operation but differs only in the way recoiling-counterrecoiling set of pistons are attached,
Here instead of having separate recoil springs attached to each pistons and a double venting gas block Koksharov utilised single but larger gas block that is given opposite facing gas tubes on its top and it vents from middle, at a place where there is this collar-piston that is recoiling part (attached to bolt carrier) and a counter-recoiling piston interlinked with collar-piston (by extension the bolt carrier too) via inside-housed rack-pinion mechanism.


1625426926975.png

A-545 disassembled, notice number 1 denoting larger gas block which has this opposite-facing gas tubes attached on it ( number 2(X) is just showing end of gas tube for counter-recoiling piston, there isn't any gas venting happening here it's just a mechanical linkage with front iron sight block)
1625426692148.png

AEK-971's bolt carrier (sorry for lack of high quality pic of A-545 one but both are very much similar firearms), number 1 showing recoiling collar-piston attached to bolt carrier, very much AK style except it's hollow one housing counter-recoiling piston that is number 2 and there is this mechanical arrangement of rack-pinion inside, number 3 showing the moving linkage of pinion, you could also see those notched-rack surfaces below

So when it is fired, gases vented from middle impinges upon both pistons, one is recoiling backwards (collar-piston one) and operating working parts of bolt-bolt carrier etc while at same time other ( attached counter-recoiling one) moves forward, effectively eliminating recoil and so,

Now, advantagesdisadvantages parts of both, of course + is advantage and - is disadvantage,

Alexandrov/Kalashnikov one
+ relatively simpler working than Koksharov's as separate pistons interlinked with external rack-pinion set is easy to work with
+ disassembly is having extra step of removing counter-recoiling piston but is still very much AK-like
- since it's an ope system (and has that larger AK style ejection port) outside gunk sticking on rack-surfaces of the interlinked working parts could cause jams
- requires extra spring for counter-recoiling piston

Koksharov one
+ Primary Disassembly is very much AK like, you don't need to remove counter-recoiling piston unless required
+ Since rack-pinion set of interlinkage is practically housed inside the gas piston (albeit rack surfaces on top-bottom still exposed) there is less chances of outside gunk going inside and clogging them, although still somewhat susceptible to it
+ Doesn't require extra spring for working of counter-recoiling piston due to its design
- if shit goes inside and you needs to clean up rack-surfaces inside the bolt carrier etc, you might need some proper brush and something i mean just look at it disassembled further
1625428866615.png

so you see, you might need a longer brush to scrap off shits accumulated inside collar-piston's cavity or worse thing, if that small cross-pin of pinions-set gets lost or breaks then entire mechanism fails

So yeah, this is some basic technical explanation of their working,
i wish there was some way to demonstrate it all in some video or animation 😪 but am not that much talented to create such things, also very much limited in terms of resources

having said all these there is also another common complaint about such systems, that is since after pushing the pistons gases are vented out from middle section of the rifle (being more near to a shooter's face) many soliders testing these kinda weapons complained about hot gases venting out on their faces causing discomfirt, or overheating handguards more quicker than a regular AK
^This is applicable to both Alexandrov/Kalashnikov design and Koksharov one

So yeah, both designs have some plus and some minuses
As of now, Koksharov's design is selected for many Gendarmarie pattern units of Russian Armed Forces in both A-545 and A-762 designs, full production was supposed to start in 2020 but after choyneez virus scamdemic am not sure what is current status,
while AK-107 design is also being tested and adopted by some small units, some Kazakhstani units also obtained about 100 of them and so,
 

Johny_Baba

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Difference is in kind of gas pistons arrangement used in both,
AK-107 (i'd like to mention here AK is not Avtomat Kalashnikova = Kalashnikov's Automatic but Aleksandrov/Kalashnikov = Alexandrov/Kalashnikov's, named after a junior engineer Yury Alexandrov who worked in then Izhmash plant, designed this pattern of counter-recoiling mass system but used AK pattern rifle to implement it, so yeah) one uses two separate pistons+two separate recoil springs (and of course dual-venting gas block to provide push to each oppositely facing pistons) interlinked together sorta system, syncronised using a set of rack-and-pinion mechanism

View attachment 98243
1 = bolt carrier with recoiling pison, AK style long storke one in essense
2 = recoil spring of number 1, very much AK styled
3 = Counter-Recoiling Piston + circular rack-surace on it
4 = Return Spring pf number 3
5 = pinion mechanism for interlinking number 1 with number 3, having circular gear/pinion, housed inside this H-shaped block

6 = U-shaped mount to affix everything in place, number 5 sandwiched between number 1's gas piston+rack surfaces below and number 3's gas piston+rack surfaces above, everything affixed on number 6 mount
7 = NOT A GAS TUBE but Π - shaped Top Cover to cover number 1+ number 5 + number 3 sandwich mounted on number 6
8 = another Top Cover, this one is very much AK styled as you could see it
9 = double-venting gas block, T-shaped, vents gases on opposite top sides that impinges upon pistons attached to number 1 and number 3 in respective sides etc



AEK-971 (Avtomat, Yedinyy, Koksharov = Koksharov's common rifle) or its current version A-545//A-762 (number denote calibers) system is simliar in operation but differs only in the way recoiling-counterrecoiling set of pistons are attached,
Here instead of having separate recoil springs attached to each pistons and a double venting gas block Koksharov utilised single but larger gas block that is given opposite facing gas tubes on its top and it vents from middle, at a place where there is this collar-piston that is recoiling part (attached to bolt carrier) and a counter-recoiling piston interlinked with collar-piston (by extension the bolt carrier too) via inside-housed rack-pinion mechanism.


View attachment 98241
A-545 disassembled, notice number 1 denoting larger gas block which has this opposite-facing gas tubes attached on it ( number 2(X) is just showing end of gas tube for counter-recoiling piston, there isn't any gas venting happening here it's just a mechanical linkage with front iron sight block)
View attachment 98238
AEK-971's bolt carrier (sorry for lack of high quality pic of A-545 one but both are very much similar firearms), number 1 showing recoiling collar-piston attached to bolt carrier, very much AK style except it's hollow one housing counter-recoiling piston that is number 2 and there is this mechanical arrangement of rack-pinion inside, number 3 showing the moving linkage of pinion, you could also see those notched-rack surfaces below

So when it is fired, gases vented from middle impinges upon both pistons, one is recoiling backwards (collar-piston one) and operating working parts of bolt-bolt carrier etc while at same time other ( attached counter-recoiling one) moves forward, effectively eliminating recoil and so,

Now, advantagesdisadvantages parts of both, of course + is advantage and - is disadvantage,

Alexandrov/Kalashnikov one
+ relatively simpler working than Koksharov's as separate pistons interlinked with external rack-pinion set is easy to work with
+ disassembly is having extra step of removing counter-recoiling piston but is still very much AK-like
- since it's an ope system (and has that larger AK style ejection port) outside gunk sticking on rack-surfaces of the interlinked working parts could cause jams
- requires extra spring for counter-recoiling piston

Koksharov one
+ Primary Disassembly is very much AK like, you don't need to remove counter-recoiling piston unless required
+ Since rack-pinion set of interlinkage is practically housed inside the gas piston (albeit rack surfaces on top-bottom still exposed) there is less chances of outside gunk going inside and clogging them, although still somewhat susceptible to it
+ Doesn't require extra spring for working of counter-recoiling piston due to its design
- if shit goes inside and you needs to clean up rack-surfaces inside the bolt carrier etc, you might need some proper brush and something i mean just look at it disassembled further
View attachment 98246
so you see, you might need a longer brush to scrap off shits accumulated inside collar-piston's cavity or worse thing, if that small cross-pin of pinions-set gets lost or breaks then entire mechanism fails

So yeah, this is some basic technical explanation of their working,
i wish there was some way to demonstrate it all in some video or animation 😪 but am not that much talented to create such things, also very much limited in terms of resources

having said all these there is also another common complaint about such systems, that is since after pushing the pistons gases are vented out from middle section of the rifle (being more near to a shooter's face) many soliders testing these kinda weapons complained about hot gases venting out on their faces causing discomfirt, or overheating handguards more quicker than a regular AK
^This is applicable to both Alexandrov/Kalashnikov design and Koksharov one

So yeah, both designs have some plus and some minuses
As of now, Koksharov's design is selected for many Gendarmarie pattern units of Russian Armed Forces in both A-545 and A-762 designs, full production was supposed to start in 2020 but after choyneez virus scamdemic am not sure what is current status,
while AK-107 design is also being tested and adopted by some small units, some Kazakhstani units also obtained about 100 of them and so,
BTW about Koksharov's design,

it seems that practically it could be possible to implement similar counter-balance recoil mechanism to common AK designs as done by this hobbyist named citizen-21 on reddit with his AK-74M
1625429718726.png

1625430053158.png

1625430066244.png

1625430134889.png

1625429841063.png


mind you i am not able to see any synchonisation device (i.e. rack-pinion unit) between recoiling-counterrecoiling pistons set here so am not sure how this one actually balances but at least seems like a base model is prepared with this AK-74M, perhpas it is a closed expansion system where gases are expanding inside that hollow (but heavier ?) tube and push generated by it is pushing both common AK style piston (to rearwards) and that hollow (heavier ?) tube (forwards), trying to counteracting upon recoil or something ?
am still not sure about effectiveness of the design but if it could be fine-tuned and made into a working design then yay there is a solution for common AKs too

OFB goys, you're listening ?
 

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