Small arms and Light Weapons

[shuvo@y2k10]

And the trials have not been announced yet, I feel the delivery of carbines will start by 2028 to IA if this BS continues. Because CAR-816 was cancelled because MoD said that a Carbine like CAR-816 is more expensive than the SiG-716i (I mean they are such idiots, as I said they don’t have no knowledge on defence, CAR-816 is a Gas operated short stroke piston carbine, while SiG-716i is a Direct Impingement rifle, and DI guns are a lot cheaper than a gas operated short stroke piston guns. But then we live in Babudom of India where Caracal might not have offered good kickbacks.

After clearing the trials, weapons generally move to the contract negotiating commitee (of MOD) for opening bids. There the operating systems, specifications of the weapon does not. Only L1 bid is what counts. After that the files move to DAC.

However, in case for Car-816 other than the prcicng issues two other factors came up. One is the filing of case in delhi HC by Thales and S&T. Second issue is the lobbying by OFB for its own 5.56 mm Sig 5.56 chaap carbine.
These to issues forced MOD to withdraw that earlier RFI and issue fresh RFI which is tailor made for OFB's carbine.

 

[Marliii]

After clearing the trials, weapons generally move to the contract negotiating commitee (of MOD) for opening bids. There the operating systems, specifications of the weapon does not. Only L1 bid is what counts. After that the files move to DAC.

However, in case for Car-816 other than the prcicng issues two other factors came up. One is the filing of case in delhi HC by Thales and S&T. Second issue is the lobbying by OFB for its own 5.56 mm Sig 5.56 chaap carbine.
These to issues forced MOD to withdraw that earlier RFI and issue fresh RFI which is tailor made for OFB's carbine.

Then OFB goes to infinite strike and pisses government and when a carbine is selected will cry we are cheap we are world best randirona

 

[Whitecollar]

Apparently, in late 80s Norinco had also made 5.56 AK by modifying the bolt, gas ports, used an AK-74 style mag, etc of a reversed engineered AKM and sold it to US. If they already had mastered mass production of 7.62 Type 56 and 5.56 Type 84S, wonder why they ditched both the calibers.

 

[Whitecollar]

Apparently, in late 80s Norinco had also made 5.56 AK by modifying the bolt, gas ports, used an AK-74 style mag, etc of a reversed engineered AKM and sold it to US. If they already had mastered mass production of 7.62 Type 56 and 5.56 Type 84S, wonder why they ditched both the calibers.

Just a follow up video by MAC for Type 84s.

 

[Kchontha]

Then OFB goes to infinite strike and pisses government and when a carbine is selected will cry we are cheap we are world best randirona

Do not worry, the army will send one gernail for testing ofb carbine, then he will fire it from the hip one to three rounds and cry recoil is high. Then the ofb carbine will go to crpf or state Police.

 

[Whitecollar]

Do not worry, the army will send one gernail for testing ofb carbine, then he will fire it from the hip one to three rounds and cry recoil is high. Then the ofb carbine will go to crpf or state Police.

I tell you, carbine deal won't be finalized before 2024 unless IA Gernails grab Modi's feet. Already AK-203 is on the verge of finalization.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

AK 203 is far from finalization despite what the Rrussian and paid defence journos would like you to beleive.

From the Iindian side, the deal has been put to cold storage and with be kept on ICU for some more time, till it is finally scrapped like PAK-FA.

 

[Whitecollar]

AK 203 is far from finalization despite what the Rrussian and paid defence journos would like you to beleive.

From the Iindian side, the deal has been put to cold storage and with be kept on ICU for some more time, till it is finally scrapped like PAK-FA.

Does it mean TAR will get selected? Or else more Sig 716s will be ordered??

 

[Kchontha]

I tell you, carbine deal won't be finalized before 2024 unless IA Gernails grab Modi's feet. Already AK-203 is on the verge of finalization.

Carbine is required for replacement of sterling carbine while ak 203 is an assault rifle. Please don't mix up.

 

[Whitecollar]

Carbine is required for replacement of sterling carbine while ak 203 is an assault rifle. Please don't mix up.

When did I mix both? As of current situation, it's not about what type of weapons are being ordered. It's more about how much money will MoD sanction for these. MoD sees deals as deals that require money from reserves.

 

[Whitecollar]

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Does it mean TAR will get selected? Or else more Sig 716s will be ordered??

Both can happen. OFB is lobbying hard for TAR as well as milled Ghatak to the MOD despite Army's reluctance. The dealine for #atmanirbhar list for 7.62*39 mm assault rifle is just 6 months away.

The performance of Sig-716i guns in terms of accuracy, reliability and finish is something which was unimaginable in the Army since Independence. No wonder it is so well received in the Army, where basic Infantry folks consider it as space age weapon compared to OFB stuff. That is why there will be reluctance on Army party for future OFB guns.

Best case scenario would be ordering another 2-3 batch of Sig-716i to cover the whole Infantry.However, these will be follow on order to the initial contract, and hence Sig Sauer can increase the price from above 990$.

If another batch of Sigs does not materialize, chances for OFB R-2 (which is supposedly developed under a project management team from Army) will go up.

 

[Whitecollar]

Both can happen. OFB is lobbying hard for TAR as well as milled Ghatak to the MOD despite Army's reluctance. The dealine for #atmanirbhar list for 7.62*39 mm assault rifle is just 6 months away.

Best case scenario would be ordering another 2-3 batch of Sig-716i to cover the whole Infantry. However, these will be follow on order to the initial contract, and hence Sig Sauer can increase the price from above 990$.

If another batch of Sigs does not materialize, chances for OFB R-2 (which is supposedly developed under a project management team from Army) will go up.

They are pitching Ghatak? Man that weapon is poor person's AK with rivets all over. TAR will do much better, looking at the design language. However, Vladimir Onokoy had said somewhere that a lot of AK replicas fail to reproduce moa accuracy as the designers don't follow Russian measurement standards. As per him, after you dismantle and assemble back an AK replica, chances are the zero will shift and you have to manually adjust your RDS as per that.

I hope TAR has good moa accuracy...cause we are already losing the edge by selecting a sub 300mtr windage sensitive 7.62X39mm.

 

[Suryavanshi]

SSS is really working hard. going from spring manufacturing into armament field isn't that easy.

designing a rifle is generally easy. but large scale production is much difficult.

for example, ensuring exact same quality for 6 lakh rifles is more difficult than manufacturing some 100 tanks.

even a smallest crack in the barrels during machining or heat treatment process implies, the barrel is gone.

you have to change the inspection gauges for every 100 rifles of so.
for rifle machining, you got to change the turning and tapering tools or broaching tools for every 10 to 20 rifles.

and HSS ATSM A600 is generally the standard tool ( HSS = high speed steel; ATSM = american society for testing and materials)

each HSS tool bit costs about 2000 Rs per piece. assuming tool change for every 10 rifles,
2000 x 6,00,000 / 10 = 12,00,00,000 = 12 crores Rs just for tool bits. . again, you got to machine the tool bits themselves to make a desired tool with desired rake angles and orthogonal cutting angles etc.

View attachment 96321

just the engineering design on most common tool itself is complex.

View attachment 96322

Mechanical ke ladke ho.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

No wonder Kalashnikov employs women in their manufacturing plants lol

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

They are pitching Ghatak? Man that weapon is poor person's AK with rivets all over. TAR will do much better, looking at the design language. However, Vladimir Onokoy had said somewhere that a lot of AK replicas fail to reproduce moa accuracy as the designers don't follow Russian measurement standards. As per him, after you dismantle and assemble back an AK replica, chances are the zero will shift and you have to manually adjust your RDS as per that.

I hope TAR has good moa accuracy...cause we are already losing the edge by selecting a sub 300mm windage sensitive 7.62X39mm.

MOA standard is not used in Russia. They have separate standard for accuracy measurements based on vertical spread rather than bullet groupings.

However, if you consider accuracy all types of AK pattern rifles in 7.62*39 mm based on MOA groupings, Galil Ace will come on top.

Also, Ghatak was a AKM derivate that grew out of OFB's experience in producing other AK clones such as MRF-91 (early 90s) and A-7 (early 2000s). Ghatak had a stamped sheet metal receiver in the initial configuration. However, RF Ishapore is also offering Ghatak with milled receiver. Though it will increase its weight from 3.4 kg (currently).

 

[airstrike99]

No wonder Kalashnikov employs women in their manufacturing plants lol

No wonder Kalashnikov employs women in their manufacturing plants lol

ever heard of field stripping a rifle. smh.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

No wonder Kalashnikov employs women in their manufacturing plants lol

She is a kazak gurrrrll

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Can anyone id the gun??
In pic Chinese PAP operator

 

[airstrike99]

Can anyone id the gun??
In pic Chinese PAP operator
View attachment 96475

looks like they converted an AK into 9mm submachine gun with new hand guard, stock and painted it black