Small arms and Light Weapons

[Vishalreddy3]

@Gessler thanks for some suggestions for purchasing US firearms manufacturers by Indian companies mate, I pointed it out, including some of the companies I felt pointing out to SSS defence ceo, and he reacted to it!!

 

[airstrike99]

I remember somebody saying in this forum:
Once IA Jernail was asked by OFB "Why do you want orange color on INSAS, sir?"
To which he replied "Our soldiers must be able to find the rifle in pitch dark conditions also."

even under a moonlight, you could technically see lighter orange etc.

orange INSAS isn't that bad. the caliber is bad. they should have made an upgunned 7.62 from 5.56 mm.

 

[Marliii]

even under a moonlight, you could technically see lighter orange etc.

orange INSAS isn't that bad. the caliber is bad. they should have made an upgunned 7.62 from 5.56 mm.

5.56 aint a bad round people are comparing 5.56 as if it is a airosoft projectile.a nato 5.56 will do more tissue damage than 7.62x39

 

[Johny_Baba]

Do you recall the noises made by Pakistanis that they were all but signed on to a deal with the Polish for rifles like the whole SCAR fiasco it too faded away.

lol yeah they tried their best to get an AR-18 derivative there...FN SCAR; Cz Bren 2 and MSBS perhaps...but seems nanga punga bhikhari desh couldn't afford either of it

 

[Marliii]

lol yeah they tried their best to get an AR-18 derivative there...FN SCAR; Cz Bren 2 and MSBS perhaps...but seems nanga punga bhikhari desh couldn't afford either of it

Johny baba which is the best ar18 derivative rifle out there?

 

[airstrike99]

@Gessler thanks for some suggestions for purchasing US firearms manufacturers by Indian companies mate, I pointed it out, including some of the companies I felt pointing out to SSS defence ceo, and he reacted to it!!
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SSS is really working hard. going from spring manufacturing into armament field isn't that easy.

designing a rifle is generally easy. but large scale production is much difficult.

for example, ensuring exact same quality for 6 lakh rifles is more difficult than manufacturing some 100 tanks.

even a smallest crack in the barrels during machining or heat treatment process implies, the barrel is gone.

you have to change the inspection gauges for every 100 rifles of so.
for rifle machining, you got to change the turning and tapering tools or broaching tools for every 10 to 20 rifles.

and HSS ATSM A600 is generally the standard tool ( HSS = high speed steel; ATSM = american society for testing and materials)

each HSS tool bit costs about 2000 Rs per piece. assuming tool change for every 10 rifles,
2000 x 6,00,000 / 10 = 12,00,00,000 = 12 crores Rs just for tool bits. . again, you got to machine the tool bits themselves to make a desired tool with desired rake angles and orthogonal cutting angles etc.

just the engineering design on most common tool itself is complex.

 

[Whitecollar]

5.56 aint a bad round people are comparing 5.56 as if it is a airosoft projectile.a nato 5.56 will do more tissue damage than 7.62x39

A non nato 5.4X39mm will literally tear up the internal organs. It has more penetrating power compared to 5.56 due aerodynamic design and the tumbling effect causes very heavy casuality to enemies. With higher velocity compared to 7.62X39, a steel tip 5.45 can even pierce thru the best of BPJ used by Chinese and Pakistanis, that too from longer ranges(>200mtr)

 

[FalconSlayers]

A non nato 5.4X39mm will literally tear up the internal organs. It has more penetrating power compared to 5.56 due aerodynamic design and the tumbling effect causes very heavy casuality to enemies. With higher velocity compared to 7.62X39, a steel tip 5.45 can even pierce thru the best of BPJ used by Chinese and Pakistanis, that too from longer ranges(>200mtr)

Ya, that’s why Russians love 5.45x39, plus it’s cheaper to produce.

 

[Whitecollar]

Ya, that’s why Russians love 5.45x39, plus it’s cheaper to produce.

Don't forget the best thing. It is much lighter compared to a 7.62X39mm. this makes an average soldier carry more bullets per person compared 7.62 one. Other factor is follow up shots. With much lesser recoil, even newly trained soldiers can fire much accurately and in control. Follow up shots are better and precise. With a Red dot sight, the 5.45 AK becomes a dominating beast.

Ofcourse the significance of 7.62 is still there due to sheer stopping power, but if you have more BOOLETTs, you can compensate for that power. There is a reason why Chinese and Russians ditched the 7.62x39 which was their Primary caliber.

 

[Marliii]

Don't forget the best thing. It is much lighter compared to a 7.62X39mm. this makes an average soldier carry more bullets per person compared 7.62 one. Other factor is follow up shots. With much lesser recoil, even newly trained soldiers can fire much accurately and in control. Follow up shots are better and precise. With a Red dot sight, the 5.45 AK becomes a dominating beast.

Ofcourse the significance of 7.62 is still there due to sheer stopping power, but if you have more BOOLETTs, you can compensate for that power. There is a reason why Chinese and Russians ditched the 7.62x39 which was their Primary caliber.

5.45 is almost a non existent calibre for us as we don't use it.we got shit ton of 5.56 that's why army wants them for carbine.

 

[Whitecollar]

5.45 is almost a non existent calibre for us as we don't use it.we got shit ton of 5.56 that's why army wants them for carbine.

As I said, ditch the carbines and get AK-101 instead. It will be much cheaper as Ruskies are not getting any buyers for it. This solves both the problem of having a carbine(Soldiers are well versed with AK operation so no additional training reqd) and usage of excessive Ball 5.56X45mm bullets will also be ensured.
My logic for 101 instead of 102: Himalayan regions need better range and accuracy that can be achieved by longer barrel.

 

[Pig benis on sushy]

It might be funny but I think army is going for 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 and carbine 5.56 just not to create logistics issue

 

[Marliii]

As I said, ditch the carbines and get AK-101 instead. It will be much cheaper as Ruskies are not getting any buyers for it. This solves both the problem of having a carbine(Soldiers are well versed with AK operation so no additional training reqd) and usage of excessive Ball 5.56X45mm bullets will also be ensured.
My logic for 101 instead of 102: Himalayan regions need better range and accuracy that can be achieved by longer barrel.

Another ak? One got downgraded to 1970s.better go for ar15 SBR and carbines aren't gonna be used long range.

 

[Marliii]

It might be funny but I think army is going for 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 and carbine 5.56 just not to create logistics issue

All these rounds are already in use so it makes sense

 

[Tactical Doge]

It might be funny but I think army is going for 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 and carbine 5.56 just not to create logistics issue

Umm yeah I think so too

 

[Whitecollar]

Another ak? One got downgraded to 1970s.better go for ar15 SBR and carbines aren't gonna be used long range.

As you know bro, Army has relied on AK pattern since the 90s as it proved to be the best and most rugged rifles for them. Be it a Chinese Type 56, be it Darra 1st copy AK. If it passed the Ordinance trials, soldiers swapped their INSAS for even that(be it in worn out conditions).
Trust me, AK is not going anywhere anytime soon. So a 5.56 muching AK is much better as an alternative to 7.62 for those long range shots. Plus AK-100 series have options of Picatinny rails and modern optic installation options(design of AK-103 is inherent).

Being an Armchair general, I know nobody will respect my opinion. But note this: AK-203 and AK-101(or any AK 5.56 equivalent) may be a long term option seeing that Soldiers deserve a better proven rifle platform).

Reference of AK-103 and 101

 

[airstrike99]

the comments were straight up cancer. how can a bolt action rifle not have recoil. the bolt literally locks the cartridge in place. there is no recoil spring mechanism for any bolt action gun.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The choice for AK-47 in early 90s (at start of J&K terrorism) was made since Army lacked a proper carbine then, and only had 9mm Sten gun. Thus AK made up the shortage of carbine. Typical engagement in J&K hinterlands rarely exceed 100-200 m, and in urban areas it is 50-100 m.

That carbine shortage existed for 30+ years and is supposed to be met by the newly announced tender for 5.56 carbine.

 

[FalconSlayers]

the comments were straight up cancer. how can a bolt action rifle not have recoil. the bolt literally locks the cartridge in place. there is no recoil spring mechanism for any bolt action gun.

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[FalconSlayers]

The choice for AK-47 in early 90s (at start of J&K terrorism) was made since Army lacked a proper carbine then, and only had 9mm Sten gun. Thus AK made up the shortage of carbine. Typical engagement in J&K hinterlands rarely exceed 100-200 m, and in urban areas it is 50-100 m.

That carbine shortage existed for 30+ years and is supposed to be met by the newly announced tender for 5.56 carbine.

And the trials have not been announced yet, I feel the delivery of carbines will start by 2028 to IA if this BS continues. Because CAR-816 was cancelled because MoD said that a Carbine like CAR-816 is more expensive than the SiG-716i (I mean they are such idiots, as I said they don’t have no knowledge on defence, CAR-816 is a Gas operated short stroke piston carbine, while SiG-716i is a Direct Impingement rifle, and DI guns are a lot cheaper than a gas operated short stroke piston guns. But then we live in Babudom of India where Caracal might not have offered good kickbacks.