Small arms and Light Weapons

[Gessler]

If you want to use an 'LMG', you gotta set it down.

If your LMG is in 5.56 you don't have to. You do it if you want to increase your accuracy, but you don't HAVE to. It's still reasonably easy to manage unsupported.

I already posted a video where it shows clearly MG gunner with M249 is seen running around clearing rooms, shooting while moving etc. as he keeps up with his squad - did you not see it?

However the issue becomes different if your MG is in 7.62...the weight, recoil, everything is several leagues above that of a 5.56 M249.

By your logic the M249 becomes a GPMG if it uses it's bipod.

See the inconsistent nature of your arguement.

Lol what? Please show me exactly where I said that if you emplace a certain weapon, it becomes a GPMG?

So we essentially have a SCAR-H class weapon as our primary? That's pretty stupid.

Lol.

So with what kind of weapon do you think we fought '71 war? We fought it with the SLR - a much heavier, more unwieldy 7.62N weapon than the SIG.

You are seriously confusing the role of regular infantry with that of CI/CT units.

You WILL need intermediate rounds for firepower in volume.

And that's where the 7.62 LMG comes in.

Again if the LMG is 7.62×51 in an AK 203 section then you still end up using 7.62×51; 7.62×39; 5.56×45 in the same section.

Any section that has AK-203 as primary weapon (which will be mostly CI/CT units) has no need for a 5.56 carbine to be in the squad as well.

Only those sections of regular infantry who's primary weapon is the 716 MAY show an inclination for the commander (and perhaps the CG operator) to use a 5.56 carbine. And that's a big if.

Either way, there are only 2 primary calibres in a section. Which is consistent with how most armies in the world work.

If you have 2 Assaulter/DMR SIG 716 per section, atleast there is commonality of ammo and will reduce weight per soldier but still allow more per trooper.

Should have attached a NVG scope and used it in the section DMR role.

Don't know how many times I must repeat this.

There is NO DESIGNATED MARKSMAN IN A SECTION OF THE INDIAN ARMY...and there's nothing to indicate there will be in future either.

That's the last time I engage with you on that matter.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If your LMG is in 5.56 you don't have to. You do it if you want to increase your accuracy, but you don't HAVE to. It's still reasonably easy to manage unsupported.

I already posted a video where it shows clearly MG gunner with M249 is seen running around clearing rooms, shooting while moving etc. as he keeps up with his squad - did you not see it?

What a stupid suggestion! "As long as we use the underpowered .223, we can essentially use it as a rifle!" Then WHY have a bloody LMG in the first place!

Simply use this or some other 'jugaad' !

However the issue becomes different if your MG is in 7.62...the weight, recoil, everything is several leagues above that of a 5.56 M249.

So all NATO armies and Russian/Chinese who use 7.62×51/7.62×54 LMGs are fools.
There's a reason why a shift to the 6.8×43 is taking place.

Lol what? Please show me exactly where I said that if you emplace a certain weapon, it becomes a GPMG?

"Having a tripod or not has nothing to do with emplacing a weapon. Like I said you can emplace one on a window sill if you want."

These are your own words!

So with what kind of weapon do you think we fought '71 war? We fought it with the SLR - a much heavier, more unwieldy 7.62N weapon than the SIG.

You are seriously confusing the role of regular infantry with that of CI/CT units.

CT/COIN ops require us to navigate urban combat where CQB us prevalent. Also thick concrete and plentiful cover is present.

You need. 7.62×39 for sufficient penetration and controllable bursts in CQB.

And that's where the 7.62 LMG comes in.

So you finally get back to the 7.62N as an LMG. That's an inconsistent stand point.

Any section that has AK-203 as primary weapon (which will be mostly CI/CT units) has no need for a 5.56 carbine to be in the squad as well.

Only those sections of regular infantry who's primary weapon is the 716 MAY show an inclination for the commander (and perhaps the CG operator) to use a 5.56 carbine. And that's a big if.

Either way, there are only 2 primary calibres in a section. Which is consistent with how most armies in the world work.

The 5.56 was supposed to be issued to only Officers/NCOs/JCOs in the section along with the Radio Operator/Carl Gustav/Vehicle Crew/Paratrooper/Weapon Emplacement Crew/Mortar/HMG crew.

Your logic means to procure a 7.62x39 LMG for AK 203 sections and 7.62×51 for 7.62x51 for SIG 716 operators. That's an even bigger cluster fuck in logistics than weapons as per roles.

There is NO DESIGNATED MARKSMAN IN A SECTION OF THE INDIAN ARMY...and there's nothing to indicate there will be in future either.

That's the last time I engage with you on that matter.

Then there must be one initiated. We need a section level expert marksman ribbon. The same chap can double as an assaulter in CQB when necessary with the SIG 716's full auto in burst fire.

 

[Gessler]

What a stupid suggestion! "As long as we use the underpowered .223, we can essentially use it as a rifle!" Then WHY have a bloody LMG in the first place!

Simply use this or some other 'jugaad' !

For sustained fire ofcourse. You can put a drum mag on AR-15 but it cannot provide the ability to sustain long bouts of sustained fire the way a LMG who's chamber & barrel are designed for that purpose can.

So all NATO armies and Russian/Chinese who use 7.62×51/7.62×54 LMGs are fools.

Lol what NATO army or Russians use 7.62 LMGs tell me?

NATO armies use 5.56 LMGs like M249 or L86 LSW. Russians use 5.45x39 LMGs (RPK-74).

Please don't confuse GPMGs (like M240 or PKM) used at platoon level with LMGs used at section/squad level for probably the 100th time now.

"Having a tripod or not has nothing to do with emplacing a weapon. Like I said you can emplace one on a window sill if you want."

These are your own words!

You don't need tripod to emplace a weapon = emplaced weapon becomes GPMG?

CT/COIN ops require us to navigate urban combat where CQB us prevalent. Also thick concrete and plentiful cover is present.

Which is where AK-203 is coming in!

So you finally get back to the 7.62N as an LMG. That's an inconsistent stand point.

I'm telling you what IA standpoint is.

The 5.56 was supposed to be issued to only Officers/NCOs/JCOs in the section along with the Radio Operator/Carl Gustav/Vehicle Crew/Paratrooper/Weapon Emplacement Crew/Mortar/HMG crew.

Your logic means to procure a 7.62x39 LMG for AK 203 sections and 7.62×51 for 7.62x51 for SIG 716 operators. That's an even bigger cluster fuck in logistics than weapons as per roles.

Where did I make the suggestion to procure 7.62x39 LMG? Do you have a pathological need to put words in others' mouth or what?

7.62x51 LMG will be standardized across IA - whether they are CI/CT troops or regular Infantry troops.

In CI/CT sections: LMG will use 7.62N and everyone else will use 7.62x39 AKs. There is no need for 5.56 carbine, the AK is already comfortably used in CQB roles by RR. That means 2 calibres in COIN section:

> 7.62x39
> 7.62x51

In regular infantry sections: All riflemen as well as LMG will use 7.62x51, while its possible for commander & CG operator to use 5.56 carbine. Again only 2 calibres in infantry section:

> 7.62x51
> 5.56x45

Just where in BLAZES are you getting 3 calibres from?

Then there must be one initiated. We need a section level expert marksman ribbon. The same chap can double as an assaulter in CQB when necessary with the SIG 716's full auto in burst fire.

Hey, if you want to tell IA to create new roles, go right ahead. But don't make the assumption that roles like DMR exist in IA section - they don't.

 

[ArgonPrime]

For sustained fire ofcourse. You can put a drum mag on AR-15 but it cannot provide the ability to sustain long bouts of sustained fire the way a LMG who's chamber & barrel are designed for that purpose can.



Lol what NATO army or Russians use 7.62 LMGs tell me?

NATO armies use 5.56 LMGs like M249 or L86 LSW. Russians use 5.45x39 LMGs (RPK-74).

Please don't confuse GPMGs (like M240 or PKM) used at platoon level with LMGs used at section/squad level for probably the 100th time now.



You don't need tripod to emplace a weapon = emplaced weapon becomes GPMG?






Which is where AK-203 is coming in!



I'm telling you what IA standpoint is.



Where did I make the suggestion to procure 7.62x39 LMG? Do you have a pathological need to put words in others' mouth or what?

7.62x51 LMG will be standardized across IA - whether they are CI/CT troops or regular Infantry troops.

In CI/CT sections: LMG will use 7.62N and everyone else will use 7.62x39 AKs. There is no need for 5.56 carbine, the AK is already comfortably used in CQB roles by RR. That means 2 calibres in COIN section:

> 7.62x39
> 7.62x51

In regular infantry sections: All riflemen as well as LMG will use 7.62x51, while its possible for commander & CG operator to use 5.56 carbine. Again only 2 calibres in infantry section:

> 7.62x51
> 5.56x45

Just where in BLAZES are you getting 3 calibres from?



Hey, if you want to tell IA to create new roles, go right ahead. But don't make the assumption that roles like DMR exist in IA section - they don't.

Dude, you're wasting your time and energy which should be used for something more productive.

 

[Gessler]

Dude, you're wasting your time and energy which should be used for something more productive.

Agreed. I'm gonna follow @binayak95 and put this guy on ignore. Probably for the best.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Agreed. I'm gonna follow @binayak95 and put this guy on ignore. Probably for the best.

So true.Automatic hip fire for cqb/room clearance...........yeah, PUBG commando confirmed.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Dude, you're wasting your time and energy which should be used for something more productive.

Agreed. I'm gonna follow @binayak95 and put this guy on ignore. Probably for the best.

So true.Automatic hip fire for cqb/room clearance...........yeah, PUBG commando confirmed.

GET A ROOM PEOPLE! (^。^)

........

 

[vampyrbladez]

For sustained fire ofcourse. You can put a drum mag on AR-15 but it cannot provide the ability to sustain long bouts of sustained fire the way a LMG who's chamber & barrel are designed for that purpose can.



Lol what NATO army or Russians use 7.62 LMGs tell me?

NATO armies use 5.56 LMGs like M249 or L86 LSW. Russians use 5.45x39 LMGs (RPK-74).

Please don't confuse GPMGs (like M240 or PKM) used at platoon level with LMGs used at section/squad level for probably the 100th time now.


You don't need tripod to emplace a weapon = emplaced weapon becomes GPMG?

You didn't differentiate between the SAW and the GPMG just the LMG. That's on you.

The RFI goes for 7.62x51 not 5.56x45. The US is moving towards an intermediate round aka the 6.8×43 for this very reason. Thus in these circumstances, we have a GPMG acting as an LMG.

The underpowered INSAS LMG is not your SAW. LOL! TRY THIS FOR SIZE!

7.62x54 PKM

Other than the M249 or IMI Negev, no other LMG can switch between SAW and GPMG as well.

Which is where AK-203 is coming in!

With rapid urbanisation, future wars will also see conflict in cities. Syria, Yemen, Iraq, etc all have massive urban warfare. SIG 716 cannot take up this role as effectively and thus have to be complemented with the AK 203. We learnt this the hard way in Sri Lanka and Kashmir.

Where did I make the suggestion to procure 7.62x39 LMG? Do you have a pathological need to put words in others' mouth or what?

Then what do you propose as a SAW?? Babaji ka thullu? We have no other weapon to take up the role. Unless we have a variant of AK 203 in LMG configuration.

7.62x51 LMG will be standardized across IA - whether they are CI/CT troops or regular Infantry troops.

In CI/CT sections: LMG will use 7.62N and everyone else will use 7.62x39 AKs. There is no need for 5.56 carbine, the AK is already comfortably used in CQB roles by RR. That means 2 calibres in COIN section:

> 7.62x39
> 7.62x51

In regular infantry sections: All riflemen as well as LMG will use 7.62x51, while its possible for commander & CG operator to use 5.56 carbine. Again only 2 calibres in infantry section:

> 7.62x51
> 5.56x45

Just where in BLAZES are you getting 3 calibres from?

AK 203 - COIN / Standard Issue 7.62x39

SIG 716 - Assault / COIN (?) 7.62×51 + 7.62N LMG

CAR 816 (?) - Carbine Roles / COIN 5.56×45

If you go by the COIN armament, we end up with 3! The IA clearly wants the Carbine to retake the role of the 9mm Sterling and thus have issued the RFI and the fast track approval for the CAR 816 deal.

Hey, if you want to tell IA to create new roles, go right ahead. But don't make the assumption that roles like DMR exist in IA section - they don't.

USMC, US Army has dedicated rifle qualification ribbons for this very purpose. Either we learn in peace time or we learn the hard way.

 

[binayak95]

So true.Automatic hip fire for cqb/room clearance...........yeah, PUBG commando confirmed.

He means room CLEARANCE. Clear of all life apart from yourself.

 

[Craigs]

He means room CLEARANCE. Clear of all life apart from yourself.

What about ricochet?.............

 

[binayak95]

What about ricochet?.............

Point !

30 CHARSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[vampyrbladez]

The AK 203 kit includes a 50 round magazine so it could probably be used as a wannabe SAW as well.

 

[armyofhind]

Guys.. I'm sure we can have a discussion without calling each other paki, inbred or other such profanity.

Nobody is a paki here anyway. There are ex servicemen here as well. So I don't see a reason to call them paki.

My two cents, I dont think that the 6.8 Grendel is in widespread use. It's used by LAPD SWAT. I am not aware of any military unit using it as standard issue.

 

[binayak95]

Guys.. I'm sure we can have a discussion without calling each other paki, inbred or other such profanity.

Nobody is a paki here anyway. There are ex servicemen here as well. So I don't see a reason to call them paki.

My two cents, I dont think that the 6.8 Grendel is in widespread use. It's used by LAPD SWAT. I am not aware of any military unit using it as standard issue.

Some Eastern European nation adopted AKM clones in 6.8 as standard issue recently. But those are numbers well short of our requirements.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Guys.. I'm sure we can have a discussion without calling each other paki, inbred or other such profanity.

Nobody is a paki here anyway. There are ex servicemen here as well. So I don't see a reason to call them paki.

My two cents, I dont think that the 6.8 Grendel is in widespread use. It's used by LAPD SWAT. I am not aware of any military unit using it as standard issue.

The 6.5 Grendel is highly protected by the OEM and not available for widespread use.

The 6.8 is going to outclass both the 7.62×39 and the 5.56x45 by 2022 when US Army / USMC deploys them to infantry brigades.

 

[uoftotaku]

The 6.5 Grendel is highly protected by the OEM and not available for widespread use.

The 6.8 is going to outclass both the 7.62×39 and the 5.56x45 by 2022 when US Army / USMC deploys them to infantry brigades.

Point to note is that USF are currently testing internally designed 6.5 and 6.8 rounds as well as a 7 Polymer Telescope Cased round for future adoption.

Neither the 6.5 nor the 6.8 however are the commercially available Creedmore, Grendel or Barett SPC. They are both designed and made by US Army Tardec Lab.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Point to note is that USF are currently testing internally designed 6.5 and 6.8 rounds as well as a 7 Polymer Telescope Cased round for future adoption.

Neither the 6.5 nor the 6.8 however are the commercially available Creedmore, Grendel or Barett SPC. They are both designed and made by US Army Tardec Lab.

We should look into it now we have NATO ally status with US.

 

[sydsnyper]

Defence expo from pakistan. If not anything, they have learnt to develop presentable weapons (quite unlike our OFB with exposed rivets and paint chipped bodies). Can anyone comment on the small arms, especially the designated marksman and the bolt action sniper rifle, and the area denial launched mines. Are these licensed manufactured in pakistan or were they developed from the ground up.

 

[Johny_Baba]

New Carbine

This confirms my hypothesis where i have said that it appears like a two piece sectioned receiver similar to SG540/SG550 series of rifles.

It seems to me that this is another design revision of INSAS line of firearms.This time they took SG540 (or better,SG550) series in mind and made a rifle with two-piece sectioned receiver so an uninterrupted picatiny rail could be mounted on top of the receiver,also such design is somewhat more accurate than standard kalashnikov's single piece receiver with dust cover one,as iron sights and optics are mounted on a much sturdier receiver than a simple piece of thin metal.

SG543,compact carbine version of SG540

SG553,compact carbine version of SG550

From stamped sheet metal receiver (standard INSAS) - > to milled receiver (Mk.1C Excalibur) -> to sectioned two-piece receiver (this new carbine),i like this transition,though.

If they can roll out a whole new line of firearms based on this design + incorporate tech/things from recent AK-103M deal,it would be great.

Finally,i'd say this once again,THIS IS WHAT INSAS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AT FIRST PLACE! *rant mode off*

 

[Johny_Baba]

..!., ..!., ..!., ..!., ..!., ..!.,

Thanks,Bro!

Also,it's interesting to see a new design of UBGL under MCIWS,with pistol grip plus provision for other vertical foregrip and finger operated trigger like this Israeli IWI GL for modern versions of Tavor TAR-21 / X-95 rifles and so