Small arms and Light Weapons

[vampyrbladez]

I'd be happy if that were the case. Unfortunately that's not the way we are going down.



Again, these are GPMGs...and their usage is mostly in a static role, where number of rounds in belt is immaterial as all the weight is borne by mother earth and not the soldier. When transporting equipment in a non-combat situation (which are the last 2 pics you posted), soldiers typically carry much more than they would in combat.

In the event of a mobile usage of the GPMG, the aforementioned 50-round pouches/belts are attached:

Absolutely, this photo is simply a fake you say? Or maybe this one?

And you missed the part about which rifle will see use where?...and mistakenly assuming AK-203s and SIGs will be used alongside in the same Section?


Watch from 5:55 till about 7:30

In COIN ops, the SIG 716 will invariably turn up in place of the SLR as a DMR. Look up the COIN ops thread and you will see an absolute hodgepodge of gear.

However the 20 round box magazine for a trooper will invariably cause some heartburn.

 

[binayak95]

SOSA apna baap ko bol raha hai Paki. Chutia saala. Another for the ignored list.

 

[vampyrbladez]

SOSA apna baap ko bol raha hai Paki. Chutia saala. Another for the ignored list.

...................................................................................................

Spoiler: 2 cents

 

[Gessler]

Sure, if you only want to use your squad LMG by a shooter who's laying down with bipod deployed, you can carry a 200-round belt for all the difference it makes.

Unfortunately, that defeats the purpose of a Squad LMG, and effectively becomes an Emplaced weapon...also known as GPMG or MMG, as seen in use here:


Whereas what is expected of a Squad-level LMG gunner is this:


> Shooting while moving
> Room clearing

...and pretty much everything that a regular Rifleman does.

See the problem yet?

Absolutely, this photo is simply a fake you say? Or maybe this one?

That's again the 50-round pouch which I already mentioned (and posted pic of). What's your point?

In COIN ops, the SIG 716 will invariably turn up in place of the SLR as a DMR. Look up the COIN ops thread and you will see an absolute hodgepodge of gear.

There is no Designated Marksman in IA Section as of today. SLR is long gone and we never adopted a Squad-level DM position in the period SLR was in service. We still don't have any such position, and there is frankly nothing to indicate we will in future, either.

Only some CAPF units use SLR in DMR role (with high-power scope), not Army.

But unfortunately the go-to 'Sniper weapon' in IA service is a rifle which was designed for DM role: the SVD. But like I said, that weapon though designed to be a DMR, is not used as such by IA.

However the 20 round box magazine for a trooper will invariably cause some heartburn.

In the intended role it was meant to fulfill, there will be no heartburn. Even SLR only had 20 round mags as standard - as does pretty much every single 7.62N assault rifle in the world, including all AR-10s, SCAR-H, G3 etc. etc.

With the stopping power & penetration it offers, combined with the fact we will be getting magnifier optics for the SIGs, 20 rounds of 7.62N are more than enough per magazine. Don't forget the bulk of IA regular infantry till now are surviving on 20-rounds of 5.56 per magazine with INSAS.

 

[ArgonPrime]

1. LMGs have an acceptable deviation in MoA wrt rifles to allow for better suppression.

Pure bullshit!!If your rounds do not hit close enough, your enemy won't be suppressed, if they happen to be professional soldiers that is.

Higher volume of fire allows for better and increased suppression.

Only if your rounds land within 3 meters of your targets max, otherwise they won't have any effect on your enemies whatsoever!!The only thing one would achieve by committing to such practice would be to waste an awful lot of ammo which could have been put to better use!!

In battle you get less chance to pick targets around the 300 m mark.

Stop copy pasting world war 2 era field manuals you idiot!!This ain't the 40s anymore!!Ever heard of a Trijicon ACOG??!!

This is exactly where the 5.56 and the 7.62x51 trade terminal ballistics you dumb fuck!

Terminal ballistics has got nothing to with our discussion you dumb inbred cucklord!!

2. LMGs fire in an arc to ensure maximum suppression.

This creates a buffer zone where you pin down the enemy and move to neutralize them. Unless you have people running towards LMGs, the fire is used for rapid maneuver warfare.

Great!!You just showed how clueless you really are when it comes to squad tactics, mixing up GPMGs with LMGs like that.

3. You inbred fuck!

You sure you're not mistaking me for your dad, kiddo??

The M4A1 is primarily geared for compact automatic fire to give a degree of firepower on the go for troops. Burst mode is absolutely useless in CQB. You use semi-auto in anything more then 100m to get better grouped shots.

You literally pulled this dogshit outta your butthole you moron!!There is not a single official paper released by anyone in the US military that the M4A1 is 'primarily geared for compact automatic fire' as you so confidently put.In reality, the A1 was introduced, largely to make use of the newer M855A1 cartridges which are packed with higher energetic propellant charge!!
This becomes even more apparent if one is to follow their standard training regime where the recruits are given specific orders by their instructors never to tamper with fire selector setting and failing to obey the same would land you in a heap of troubles!!
There is a reason why firing a rifle/carbine (including the M4A1) in full auto mode is so frowned upon since at a cyclic rate 850 rounds/minute, one would chew through a 30 round box magazine in less than 2 seconds which would inevitably lead to your troops exhausting their ammo supply in the middle of a firefight.Trust me, maintaining proper trigger discipline when rounds are whistling past your ears is next to impossible even for the hardest of the veterans.

Burst mode is absolutely useless in CQB. You use semi-auto in anything more then 100m to get better grouped shots.

Yeah, may be that's why the standard room clearance drill exclusively involves double tap shootings only in every professional army (including Indian Army), right??And also, may be that's why, the Indian soldiers are trained to fire at single shot only even at 25 meters??Guess they've been doing it all wrong and they should hire your highness asap to rectify this grave mistake!!

Most engagements occur at 200m or less.

Not true at all.

In urban ops, you have a very short response time to bring your weapon to bear, aim and fire at a threat at 15 yards. Here hip fire based on M4A1 is considered the best.

Full auto hip fire you say, huh??Like in here??
or here:
or here :
or here:
or here:

Here is a footage of USMC rifle hooting range session :
youtube.com/watch?v=S7BGTY8uy2M
Admit it kid, you don't know what you're talking about.Clearly you're deriving all your knowledge from PUBG and those macho hollywood war movies, just as I had predicted.

M16A1 was replaced by A2 to add the forward assist, heavier barrel for sustained automatic fire and a non triangular barrel shroud for a better grip. Get your facts right!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!Sustained automatic fire!!Hahahahahahahaha!!The M16A2 doesn't even come with a full auto setting!!LMAO!!

View attachment 37494 View attachment 37495

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/03/the-g36-controversy-intensifies/



https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/...kaputten-gewehren-23833380.bild.html#fromWall

In none of these two articles, there is a word on automatic fire!!They are talking about rifles overheating due to sustained fire over a protracted period of time than instructed, but like I've said again and again, sustained fire doesn't mean automatic fire, they are not the same!!Why can't you seem to wrap your stupid head around this simple idea??!!

4. This is a report of the G36 rifle after sustained firefights against Muzzie Pigs in Afghanistan.

Please try to use grown up words.You may think that using those buzz words you picked up while watching some hollywood films make you appear so cool and edgy as shit but in reality, you're fooling no one, kid.You're just a 27 year old fat little squirt with a brain of a 5 year old, screaming at his computer his father bought for him.

The US M4 rifle is known to suffer from similar problems as well!

Every air cooled firearm would malfunction after a period of time of sustained firing.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/back-2008-us-armys-m4-rifle-failed-badly-tough-shootout-44867

This led to a change in barrels being procured for the M4.

And your point being??

“My weapon was overheating,” another soldier said. “I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about half an hour or so into the fight.” In other words, the soldier fired approximately 360 rounds in 30 minutes. That’s 14 rounds a minute—one every four seconds.

Do I need to say more??!!It was 14 rounds a minute - in other words, not automatic fire but sustained semi auto fire as I had been saying from the beginning of the discussion!!Thanks for proving my point and showing how big of a fuckwit you really are.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2014/05/28/US-Army-upgrading-M4-rifles-with-new-barrels/6561401295216/

Well, as they say, words are cheap.Now let's watch what they really practice during active combat, shall we??Here goes nothin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYSCuAfOc5g
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-7XehckHAM
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJf1epaqFa4
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWbqWaQF-M
and
youtube.com/watch?v=pEv8TenzXWo

Now, in all these footage, do you count a single instance where a rifleman discharged his weapon in full auto mode, because I for sure did not!!And where is this 'massive and continuous walls of suppressive fire' you talk about nonstop??Where is it??

Either put up or shut up noob!

I'm the one who's been putting up from the beginning, so it's about time you start doing the same or fuck off.And it's a bazzilion times better to be a noob than being a brain dead imbecile like yourself you moron!!

Unless you're a Paki ****** trolling here,

You know there are people like the the Nuristanis, Burushos, Kalash and a host of different central asian populations residing in different parts of Pakistan, who happen to be many shades lighter in skin tones compared to us Indians??So addressing them as '******s' as an Indian comes off as somewhat silly and outrageous to me but that's just me.And for argument's sake, let's say I AM a 'Paki ******', so what??That would have no bearing on the ground realities at all!!

some basic prerequisite knowledge is necessary to post here.

True, so about time you grab some books, kid.

 

[ArgonPrime]

1. So we should scrap all MMGs, HMGs and use WW2 style Brens only. What a bullshiter!

HMGs are not carried by foot patrols (duh!), so it's irrelevant.
GPMGs are platoon level weapons and they are usually set up in the rear areas to establish a base of fire and do not accompany an assaulting section/squad.So again, irrelevant.
And Binayak never said there should only be Brens, so stop words in others' mouths.

2. A USMC platoon has the M240B,M249, M4A1, M110, EBR 14, 40mm UBGs, 9mm sidearms, Carl Gustavs/SMAW, 12 gauge breacher shotguns for urban ops. Are they fools? I am not even counting separate special ammo types.

First of all, you're talking about platoons while he was talking about sections/squads, both are completely different.For one, an assault section will have a GPMG attachment because they will be set up in the rear.So that goes out of the picture.
Secondly, There is absolutely no way for a section to have both M110 and EBR 14 and even if they did, they use the same ammo type, same for the M240B, so logistics wise, it won't be a problem.
Thirdly, M4s and M249 SAW are shares the same ammo type, so again, there is no problem.

7.62x39 - Standard Infantry Rifle

Not gonna happen, not in a million years.They will only be used for COIN ops.

7.62x51 - DMR/Assaulter/LMG

If everything goes according to plans, this will become the standard small arms caliber for all the infantry formations across the board (yet again) which if you ask me, is a mistake.They should have gone for the 6.5 mm Grendel cause that round provides the perfect compromise between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

 

[ArgonPrime]

You need to punch LVL III+ - IV Chinese and Russian plates you use heavier rounds. There is a reason why the 6.8mm is in such vogue today in the US Army and USMC.

First of all, neither the Chinese nor the Russaian regulars are issued with NIJ level IV body armors, since they are just way too heavy for prolonged use.
Secondly, even the 7.62X51 NATO hardened steel core rounds penetrate a level III+ armor plate at any kind of meaningful distance and the Level IV armor plates are made to resist .30 cal armor piecing rounds, so there is no way in hell a 6.8 Remington SPC can ever hope to penetrate either of those types of plates even at point blank range..............period!!
Carrying an extra ammo canister helps immensely. There was the position of an assistant MG gunner some time ago for this very reason.

7.62x39 ; 7.62x51 ; 5.56x45 ; That's what the army RFIs and RFPs say.

That does not mean those weapons will be used in the same platoon you moron!!

If it were up to me I'd simply replace the 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 with the 6.8x43.

That's cause you're an effing moron as has been already established.I would opt for the 6.5 mm Grendel instead.
Check this out - http://gunworld.com/ammo/bullet-battle-6-5-grendel-vs-6-8-remington-spc/

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

IA is buying 12,000 'sniper scopes' for sig716.Any idea of its role?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Sure, if you only want to use your squad LMG by a shooter who's laying down with bipod deployed, you can carry a 200-round belt for all the difference it makes.

Unfortunately, that defeats the purpose of a Squad LMG, and effectively becomes an Emplaced weapon...also known as GPMG or MMG, as seen in use here:


Whereas what is expected of a Squad-level LMG gunner is this:


> Shooting while moving
> Room clearing

...and pretty much everything that a regular Rifleman does.

See the problem yet?

Every 7.62x51 LMG acts as a GPMG. It's the sheer penetration, firepower and range allow for a wide arc of suppression. You effectively need an intermediate cartridge for a true LMG gunner. 7.62x39 or 5.56x45 or 6.8x43 as an LMG round does well.

That's again the 50-round pouch which I already mentioned (and posted pic of). What's your point?

This is the 50 round pouch.

Here is the 100 round version.

There is no Designated Marksman in IA Section as of today. SLR is long gone and we never adopted a Squad-level DM position in the period SLR was in service. We still don't have any such position, and there is frankly nothing to indicate we will in future, either.

Only some CAPF units use SLR in DMR role (with high-power scope), not Army.

But unfortunately the go-to 'Sniper weapon' in IA service is a rifle which was designed for DM role: the SVD. But like I said, that weapon though designed to be a DMR, is not used as such by IA.

Like I said. Take the SIG 716 and put a longer barrel on it. You now have a DMR. Set up an 'expert marksman' qualification ribbon/badge and create a 'Assaulter/DMR' type member of the squad.

In the intended role it was meant to fulfill, there will be no heartburn. Even SLR only had 20 round mags as standard - as does pretty much every single 7.62N assault rifle in the world, including all AR-10s, SCAR-H, G3 etc. etc.

For your frontline infantry, if all are equipped with SIG 716 then it gives a very limited top heavy scope of the activities the rifle can perform. You need an intermediate round to serve alongside aka the 7.62x39 in this case.

Ideally :

0 - 300 m - CAR 816/AK 203

300 - 500 m - AK 203

500 - 1000 m - SIG 716

With the stopping power & penetration it offers, combined with the fact we will be getting magnifier optics for the SIGs, 20 rounds of 7.62N are more than enough per magazine. Don't forget the bulk of IA regular infantry till now are surviving on 20-rounds of 5.56 per magazine with INSAS.

You need a round to provide automatic fire for taking on targets as well. 7.62 in full automatic all the time will be very top heavy. Complementing it with 7.62x39 is required.

That's the result of 15 years of neglect for the military till 2014.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Pure bullshit!!If your rounds do not hit close enough, your enemy won't be suppressed, if they happen to be professional soldiers that is.

Only if your rounds land within 3 meters of your targets max, otherwise they won't have any effect on your enemies whatsoever!!The only thing one would achieve by committing to such practice would be to waste an awful lot of ammo which could have been put to better use!!


Stop copy pasting world war 2 era field manuals you idiot!!This ain't the 40s anymore!!Ever heard of a Trijicon ACOG??!!

Terminal ballistics has got nothing to with our discussion you dumb inbred cucklord!!


Great!!You just showed how clueless you really are when it comes to squad tactics, mixing up GPMGs with LMGs like that.


You sure you're not mistaking me for your dad, kiddo??


You literally pulled this dogshit outta your butthole you moron!!There is not a single official paper released by anyone in the US military that the M4A1 is 'primarily geared for compact automatic fire' as you so confidently put.In reality, the A1 was introduced, largely to make use of the newer M855A1 cartridges which are packed with higher energetic propellant charge!!
This becomes even more apparent if one is to follow their standard training regime where the recruits are given specific orders by their instructors never to tamper with fire selector setting and failing to obey the same would land you in a heap of troubles!!
There is a reason why firing a rifle/carbine (including the M4A1) in full auto mode is so frowned upon since at a cyclic rate 850 rounds/minute, one would chew through a 30 round box magazine in less than 2 seconds which would inevitably lead to your troops exhausting their ammo supply in the middle of a firefight.Trust me, maintaining proper trigger discipline when rounds are whistling past your ears is next to impossible even for the hardest of the veterans.

Yeah, may be that's why the standard room clearance drill exclusively involves double tap shootings only in every professional army (including Indian Army), right??And also, may be that's why, the Indian soldiers are trained to fire at single shot only even at 25 meters??Guess they've been doing it all wrong and they should hire your highness asap to rectify this grave mistake!!


Not true at all.

Full auto hip fire you say, huh??Like in here??
or here:
or here :
or here:
or here:

Here is a footage of USMC rifle hooting range session :
youtube.com/watch?v=S7BGTY8uy2M
Admit it kid, you don't know what you're talking about.Clearly you're deriving all your knowledge from PUBG and those macho hollywood war movies, just as I had predicted.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!Sustained automatic fire!!Hahahahahahahaha!!The M16A2 doesn't even come with a full auto setting!!LMAO!!


In none of these two articles, there is a word on automatic fire!!They are talking about rifles overheating due to sustained fire over a protracted period of time than instructed, but like I've said again and again, sustained fire doesn't mean automatic fire, they are not the same!!Why can't you seem to wrap your stupid head around this simple idea??!!

Please try to use grown up words.You may think that using those buzz words you picked up while watching some hollywood films make you appear so cool and edgy as shit but in reality, you're fooling no one, kid.You're just a 27 year old fat little squirt with a brain of a 5 year old, screaming at his computer his father bought for him.

Every air cooled firearm would malfunction after a period of time of sustained firing.




And your point being??

Do I need to say more??!!It was 14 rounds a minute - in other words, not automatic fire but sustained semi auto fire as I had been saying from the beginning of the discussion!!Thanks for proving my point and showing how big of a fuckwit you really are.

Well, as they say, words are cheap.Now let's watch what they really practice during active combat, shall we??Here goes nothin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYSCuAfOc5g
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-7XehckHAM
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJf1epaqFa4
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWbqWaQF-M
and
youtube.com/watch?v=pEv8TenzXWo

Now, in all these footage, do you count a single instance where a rifleman discharged his weapon in full auto mode, because I for sure did not!!And where is this 'massive and continuous walls of suppressive fire' you talk about nonstop??Where is it??

I'm the one who's been putting up from the beginning, so it's about time you start doing the same or fuck off.And it's a bazzilion times better to be a noob than being a brain dead imbecile like yourself you moron!!

You know there are people like the the Nuristanis, Burushos, Kalash and a host of different central asian populations residing in different parts of Pakistan, who happen to be many shades lighter in skin tones compared to us Indians??So addressing them as '******s' as an Indian comes off as somewhat silly and outrageous to me but that's just me.And for argument's sake, let's say I AM a 'Paki ******', so what??That would have no bearing on the ground realities at all!!


True, so about time you grab some books, kid.

HMGs are not carried by foot patrols (duh!), so it's irrelevant.
GPMGs are platoon level weapons and they are usually set up in the rear areas to establish a base of fire and do not accompany an assaulting section/squad.So again, irrelevant.
And Binayak never said there should only be Brens, so stop words in others' mouths.


First of all, you're talking about platoons while he was talking about sections/squads, both are completely different.For one, an assault section will have a GPMG attachment because they will be set up in the rear.So that goes out of the picture.
Secondly, There is absolutely no way for a section to have both M110 and EBR 14 and even if they did, they use the same ammo type, same for the M240B, so logistics wise, it won't be a problem.
Thirdly, M4s and M249 SAW are shares the same ammo type, so again, there is no problem.




Not gonna happen, not in a million years.They will only be used for COIN ops.


If everything goes according to plans, this will become the standard small arms caliber for all the infantry formations across the board (yet again) which if you ask me, is a mistake.They should have gone for the 6.5 mm Grendel cause that round provides the perfect compromise between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

First of all, neither the Chinese nor the Russaian regulars are issued with NIJ level IV body armors, since they are just way too heavy for prolonged use.
Secondly, even the 7.62X51 NATO hardened steel core rounds penetrate a level III+ armor plate at any kind of meaningful distance and the Level IV armor plates are made to resist .30 cal armor piecing rounds, so there is no way in hell a 6.8 Remington SPC can ever hope to penetrate either of those types of plates even at point blank range..............period!!
Carrying an extra ammo canister helps immensely. There was the position of an assistant MG gunner some time ago for this very reason.

That does not mean those weapons will be used in the same platoon you moron!!

That's cause you're an effing moron as has been already established.I would opt for the 6.5 mm Grendel instead.
Check this out - http://gunworld.com/ammo/bullet-battle-6-5-grendel-vs-6-8-remington-spc/

Stop screaming like a little incoherent bitch. :biggrin2:

You are incoherently ranting and regurgitating your own arguments. Collect your points and present a useful argument or take a hike!

P.S: @binayak95 is this your alt?

 

[vampyrbladez]

IA is buying 12,000 'sniper scopes' for sig716.Any idea of its role?

DMR - Designated Marksman Rifle...........................

 

[vampyrbladez]

@binayak95 @ArgonPrime you might want to learn about reflexive shooting which is taught by the US Army for situations when you need to switch between targets really quickly and take split second decisions.

https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fm-3-22.9-rifle-marksmanship-m16a1-m16a2-3-m16a4-and-m4-carb

 

[Gessler]

Every 7.62x51 LMG acts as a GPMG. It's the sheer penetration, firepower and range allow for a wide arc of suppression. You effectively need an intermediate cartridge for a true LMG gunner. 7.62x39 or 5.56x45 or 6.8x43 as an LMG round does well.

Obviously we're not buying any LMG in any of those calibres. We're buying 'LMG' in 7.62x51mm. Deal with it.

Either way, the question is not whether said 7.62x51mm machine gun can perform role of GPMG or not. It can very well - considering the OFB-made 7.62 'LMG' is based on FN MAG which is a GPMG through and through.

The question is how well can it perform the role of a LMG/SAW. Which is not very well - primarily due to the excess weight.

The gun we're pitching for a LMG role is heavy enough to fit into a MMG role in most armies. That's the problem.

This is the 50 round pouch.

View attachment 37503

Here is the 100 round version.

Kindly compare the size and thickness of this 100 round pouch to the pic I quoted in earlier post. And tell me that isn't the 50 round one.

Like I said. Take the SIG 716 and put a longer barrel on it. You now have a DMR. Set up an 'expert marksman' qualification ribbon/badge and create a 'Assaulter/DMR' type member of the squad.

Against what requirement?

Has IA asked for such a weapon or creation of such a member of the infantry section?No. So why do anything of what you're saying here?

For your frontline infantry, if all are equipped with SIG 716 then it gives a very limited top heavy scope of the activities the rifle can perform. You need an intermediate round to serve alongside aka the 7.62x39 in this case.

What intermediate round did we have when whole infantry was equipped with SLR back in the day?

Ideally :

0 - 300 m - CAR 816/AK 203

300 - 500 m - AK 203

500 - 1000 m - SIG 716



You need a round to provide automatic fire for taking on targets as well.

Obviously IA isn't using an automatic assault rifle for infantry today (INSAS isn't auto), and if the stopping power of 5.56 in semi was deemed manageable...the power of 7.62 in semi auto will be overwhelmingly capable.

Keep in mind the SIGs we're getting aren't DMRs with 20" barrels or anything. They are run of the mill semi auto assault rifles with 16" barrels - shorter barrel than INSAS has today.

So in room clearing etc. the SIGs will be easier to wield than the INSAS we have now.

And there's no issues with 7.62 semi auto CQB...while not ideal, it's perfectly doable and many SF as well as regular units, even the one across western border, do it very well.

7.62 in full automatic all the time will be very top heavy. Complementing it with 7.62x39 is required.

Nobody fires 7.62N full auto all the time on a non-emplaced weapon unless they want to permanently ruin their shoulder and take early retirement from service.

 

[Gessler]

IA is buying 12,000 'sniper scopes' for sig716.Any idea of its role?

Magnified optic =/= Sniper scope.

The media is sh!t.

What we're getting is more than likely a 4x optic such as ACOG or ELCAN Spectre. The kind US Army & Marines usually fit on their M4s. Though as far as I recall the article, there was no mention of magnification power (which reinforces the idea they're not meant for long-range sniping as that would obviously come with a minimum power requirement).

 

[vampyrbladez]

Obviously we're not buying any LMG in any of those calibres. We're buying 'LMG' in 7.62x51mm. Deal with it.

Either way, the question is not whether said 7.62x51mm machine gun can perform role of GPMG or not. It can very well - considering the OFB-made 7.62 'LMG' is based on FN MAG which is a GPMG through and through.

The question is how well can it perform the role of a LMG/SAW. Which is not very well - primarily due to the excess weight.

The gun we're pitching for a LMG role is heavy enough to fit into a MMG role in most armies. That's the problem.



Kindly compare the size and thickness of this 100 round pouch to the pic I quoted in earlier post. And tell me that isn't the 50 round one.

1. I present the 6.8x43 or a 7.62x39 in that LMG role. Both rounds have a very high energy but 6.8x43 is much better. However the 5.56x45 is not capable of meeting the requirements of armor penetration. Thus we go the GPMG way.

2. In an age where LVL III+ - IV armor is widely dispersed among troopers, 7.62x51 is the only round that can reliably punch through all armor, projected or in service.

3. The box one is the 100 round version. The little flappy one is the 50 round version. Soldier Systems made both of them.

Against what requirement?

Has IA asked for such a weapon or creation of such a member of the infantry section?No. So why do anything of what you're saying here?

What intermediate round did we have when whole infantry was equipped with SLR back in the day?

When SLR was there, the concept of a carbine/assault rifle was still in development. The thought process was still of a semi automatic NATO round than a high caliber automatic/single shot battle rifle compact enough to be used in an assault role but having range for DMR activities.

Obviously IA isn't using an automatic assault rifle for infantry today (INSAS isn't auto), and if the stopping power of 5.56 in semi was deemed manageable...the power of 7.62 in semi auto will be overwhelmingly capable.

Keep in mind the SIGs we're getting aren't DMRs with 20" barrels or anything. They are run of the mill semi auto assault rifles with 16" barrels - shorter barrel than INSAS has today.

The SIG 716 in military configuration are full auto. Besides 20'' inch barrels aren't part of the DMR kit. 16'' inch ones are. SIG 516 precision sniper rifles do have a 20'' barrel.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-review-sig-sauer-716-g2-dmr/

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/822470049

The US arm-maker SIG Sauer's SiG 716 finished with the 'L1' or lowest quote for the army's fast track procurement of 72,000 new automatic rifles.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...equip-indian-army-soldiers-1352324-2018-09-29

The SIG516 is a semi-automatic multi-caliber rifle, intended for civilian and law enforcement markets.

The same family also includes selective-fired (single shot, 3 shot burst, full automatic modes) assault rifles, strictly intended for law enforcement and military use.

https://defence-blog.com/army/sig-sauer-to-produce-72400-sig716-rifles-for-india.html

And there's no issues with 7.62 semi auto CQB...while not ideal, it's perfectly doable and many SF as well as regular units, even the one across western border, do it very well.

Nobody fires 7.62N full auto all the time on a non-emplaced weapon unless they want to permanently ruin their shoulder and take early retirement from service.

7.62 semi auto in an auto rifle environment will only prove why the beloved SLR was shunted out for AKs by the Rashtriya RIfles. The military variants are burst/auto/semi anyways so this is a moot point.

7.62N as non emplaced is fired using a portable bipod. No sense in getting it to fit a tripod in maneuver warfare.

 

[Gessler]

1. I present the 6.8x43 or a 7.62x39 in that LMG role. Both rounds have a very high energy but 6.8x43 is much better. However the 5.56x45 is not capable of meeting the requirements of armor penetration. Thus we go the GPMG way.

2. In an age where LVL III+ - IV armor is widely dispersed among troopers, 7.62x51 is the only round that can reliably punch through all armor, projected or in service.

Well we have painted ourselves into a corner here.

Only 7.62N MG that can pull off the LMG role relatively well is the Negev NG7 (or NG7-SF with shorter barrel), which is the lightest of the lot. Unfortunately that's not enough to get the deal and we will have to go through the proper channels...only for the deal to be scrapped and restarted again for no reason. Just like the previous one and the one before it.

3. The box one is the 100 round version. The little flappy one is the 50 round version. Soldier Systems made both of them.

...So would you kindly admit that this here:

...is a 50-round pouch?

Which is exactly what I said is used with the M240 when in a mobile application?

The SIG 716 in military configuration are full auto.

Full-auto capable. Just like G3 or SCAR-H are, as well.

Doesn't mean they are used in full auto all the while - only when attempting to suppress. When firing for effect, a 7.62N rifle in full auto will have horrible, horrible accuracy. Effectively defeating the purpose of having a magnified optic on it.

Besides 20'' inch barrels aren't part of the DMR kit. 16'' inch ones are. SIG 516 precision sniper rifles do have a 20'' barrel.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-review-sig-sauer-716-g2-dmr/

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/822470049



https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...equip-indian-army-soldiers-1352324-2018-09-29



https://defence-blog.com/army/sig-sauer-to-produce-72400-sig716-rifles-for-india.html

18" is offered on the 6.5 Creedmoor model. The point is the same though - SIG 716 is a shorter, more compact weapon than the INSAS we have today.

7.62 semi auto in an auto rifle environment will only prove why the beloved SLR was shunted out for AKs by the Rashtriya RIfles.

7.62N rifle (SIG) is NOT going to be in the environment where AKs are used today (CI/CT). The AK-203 will be meeting those roles.

The SIG will go where the INSAS is serving today. Where the SLR served in times past.

This much was stated clearly by the Vice COAS.

7.62N as non emplaced is fired using a portable bipod. No sense in getting it to fit a tripod in maneuver warfare.

Once you deploy the bipod...the weapon is emplaced. That's what emplacing means - supporting the weapon's weight on the ground...whether it's done using a bipod, tripod or simply resting the gun on a window sill it doesn't matter.

 

[binayak95]

Well we have painted ourselves into a corner here.

Only 7.62N MG that can pull off the LMG role relatively well is the Negev NG7 (or NG7-SF with shorter barrel), which is the lightest of the lot. Unfortunately that's not enough to get the deal and we will have to go through the proper channels...only for the deal to be scrapped and restarted again for no reason. Just like the previous one and the one before it.



...So would you kindly admit that this here:

...is a 50-round pouch?

Which is exactly what I said is used with the M240 when in a mobile application?



Full-auto capable. Just like G3 or SCAR-H are, as well.

Doesn't mean they are used in full auto all the while - only when attempting to suppress. When firing for effect, a 7.62N rifle in full auto will have horrible, horrible accuracy. Effectively defeating the purpose of having a magnified optic on it.



18" is offered on the 6.5 Creedmoor model. The point is the same though - SIG 716 is a shorter, more compact weapon than the INSAS we have today.



7.62N rifle (SIG) is NOT going to be in the environment where AKs are used today (CI/CT). The AK-203 will be meeting those roles.

The SIG will go where the INSAS is serving today. Where the SLR served in times past.

This much was stated clearly by the Vice COAS.



Once you deploy the bipod...the weapon is emplaced. That's what emplacing means - supporting the weapon's weight on the ground...whether it's done using a bipod, tripod or simply resting the gun on a window sill it doesn't matter.

Respect bruh. You've got some patience.

I havent been this tested since the days of 'reportings' to DIs under the hot sun for some course fuck ups.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Well we have painted ourselves into a corner here.

Only 7.62N MG that can pull off the LMG role relatively well is the Negev NG7 (or NG7-SF with shorter barrel), which is the lightest of the lot. Unfortunately that's not enough to get the deal and we will have to go through the proper channels...only for the deal to be scrapped and restarted again for no reason. Just like the previous one and the one before it.

Ironically the IMI Negev had won the last tender. They will probably win the new one as well.

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/30974

...So would you kindly admit that this here:

...is a 50-round pouch?

Both the box and pouch pack are soft mags developed by Soldier Systems.

Which is exactly what I said is used with the M240 when in a mobile application?

M240B is a mobile platform. It doesn't deploy with a tripod.

Full-auto capable. Just like G3 or SCAR-H are, as well.

Doesn't mean they are used in full auto all the while - only when attempting to suppress. When firing for effect, a 7.62N rifle in full auto will have horrible, horrible accuracy. Effectively defeating the purpose of having a magnified optic on it.

It still gives an option for CQB unlike the SLR. Ironically the automatic variant of SLR was used by vehicle crew and paratroopers was full auto.

18" is offered on the 6.5 Creedmoor model. The point is the same though - SIG 716 is a shorter, more compact weapon than the INSAS we have today.

INSAS is a clusterfuck of OFB proportions.

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131

7.62N rifle (SIG) is NOT going to be in the environment where AKs are used today (CI/CT). The AK-203 will be meeting those roles.

The SIG will go where the INSAS is serving today. Where the SLR served in times past.

This much was stated clearly by the Vice COAS.

We need a battle rifle + assault rifle aka a SCAR-H but cheaper. The SIG 716 fits the bill perfectly. However we need more firepower and with impact. Thus you still need an intermediary round aka 7.62x39 to serve along side it. SLR is a relic fit for DMR only.

Once you deploy the bipod...the weapon is emplaced. That's what emplacing means - supporting the weapon's weight on the ground...whether it's done using a bipod, tripod or simply resting the gun on a window sill it doesn't matter.

Then you effectively need this old Soviet relic. Essentially a rifle - LMG hybrid.

RPD

 

[Gessler]

Ironically the IMI Negev had won the last tender. They will probably win the new one as well.

And like the last tender, this one will probably get nowhere as well.

Both the box and pouch pack are soft mags developed by Soldier Systems.

Did I ask you who makes them?

Wow dude...

M240B is a mobile platform. It doesn't deploy with a tripod.

Mobile application as in when a long belt cannot be carried, either because position is not secure or help of assistant gunner isn't guaranteed or otherwise.

Otherwise the M240 is deployed in a secure, fortified position, with the assistant gunner helping feed the belt, and keeping the 2nd barrel ready for a quick swap.

Having a tripod or not has nothing to do with emplacing a weapon. Like I said you can emplace one on a window sill if you want.

We need a battle rifle + assault rifle aka a SCAR-H but cheaper. The SIG 716 fits the bill perfectly. However we need more firepower and with impact. Thus you still need an intermediary round aka 7.62x39 to serve along side it.

For the last time. The SIG and AK procurements are for totally different requirements, meant to serve totally different forces. The former is for regular infantrymen. The latter for counter-insurgency forces primarily.

They will not be serving alongside in the same section.

It is likely section commanders of infantry would adopt a 5.56 carbine, provided that deal gets anywhere. But no AK and SIG in same section.

SLR is a relic fit for DMR only.

SLR is retired and phased out from active service in IA. It's not fit for anything.

 

[vampyrbladez]

And like the last tender, this one will probably get nowhere as well.

It's under fast track procurement. That's the key to all this. Then there will be a bigger tender to replace everything else.

Just like the SIG 716 and the AK 203 rifle procurement.

Mobile application as in when a long belt cannot be carried, either because position is not secure or help of assistant gunner isn't guaranteed or otherwise.

Otherwise the M240 is deployed in a secure, fortified position, with the assistant gunner helping feed the belt, and keeping the 2nd barrel ready for a quick swap.

Having a tripod or not has nothing to do with emplacing a weapon. Like I said you can emplace one on a window sill if you want.

If you want to use an 'LMG', you gotta set it down. By your logic the M249 becomes a GPMG if it uses it's bipod.

See the inconsistent nature of your arguement.

For the last time. The SIG and AK procurements are for totally different requirements, meant to serve totally different forces.

The fact that they are 2 separate tenders has already been mentioned and understood. Irrelevant point.

The former is for regular infantrymen. The latter for counter-insurgency forces primarily.

They will not be serving alongside in the same section.

So we essentially have a SCAR-H class weapon as our primary? That's pretty stupid. You WILL need intermediate rounds for firepower in volume.

Again if the LMG is 7.62×51 in an AK 203 section then you still end up using 7.62×51; 7.62×39; 5.56×45 in the same section. If you have 2 Assaulter/DMR SIG 716 per section, atleast there is commonality of ammo and will reduce weight per soldier but still allow more per trooper.

It is likely section commanders of infantry would adopt a 5.56 carbine, provided that deal gets anywhere. But no AK and SIG in same section.

CAR 816 is ironically more expensive than the SIG 716 despite having the same father. The HK 416 designers made the SIG 516 and then refined it further in the CAR 816.

SLR is retired and phased out from active service in IA. It's not fit for anything.

Should have attached a NVG scope and used it in the section DMR role.

With the return of the 7.62N , we are essentially back to square one.