Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[Leibstandarte]

@mods can't access my account @Poseidon, is it blocked?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

What is your problem with vote bank ? If 26/11 cab labeled as Hindu terrorism, Army Colonel jailed and labeled terrorists, etc for vote bank. Why are you loosing your mind over it, Politician do politics over everything.

When a porki says their 1 soldier is as good as 10 troops from our side, Hindus are kutta(dog), and they won 1965, etc they do it for propaganda. Then there is psychological aspect to it, they show their people that they are invincible, no one can touch them. Indians are coward and only shell civilians while we do Bat operations and bring trophies.

I say why shouldn't we counter this ? Many people here also agree and hence they spend time digging internet about their casualties and exposing them to bust their propaganda. And show them that they are being told lie and their Army is not invincible, far worse they get killed like dogs and run away when challenged, like they did in the last raid.

While what many here are doing by showing the photo of their dead troops, It remain only upto internet users, Pakis being mostly backward don't get to know. But when our politicians talk about it, they do a debate on their TV. And many Indian channels which pakis pick through DTH shows what is the reality. I say our TV should take these pictures from DFI and show them on TV also.

Its all about breaking the Myth on which Pakistan is standing and everything will come crashing down. How do you think a country as sold out in debt and doing nothing has been surviving so long. Its all Myth of falsehood and fake bravado, propaganda etc.

About defaming Army, let them do it, people will respond to that when their time comes through ballot. You should remember what happened to those who questioned last years SS.

Don't ever be ashamed of our troops, they hardly get any medal or extra pay for taking the risk and doing these raids. Even then they do it for Morale, Izzat of Paltan and their reputation. Their effort must be acknowledged and rewarded. The question we should be asking the Government through media is what are we doing to reward our brave hearts, not why are they glorifying them.

Indian Army kisi party ki baap ki jageer nhi hein ki election jeetne k liye operations karwa diye.

Indian Army is apoliticial just like Supreme court of India and most Indians like me didnt vote for Modi to ban cow meat or put Indian Army in election posters but for development.

I have a fucking huge problem if Army is brought into politics as this gives chance to Congress and AAP to make silly comments about Army.

Indian Army when declares it did surgical strike is the truth for me.No debate,No discussions no BC chest thumping over it.

Surgical strikes were also conducted by muslim soldiers who might not believe in hindu ideology.

I am not a hindutva agenda guy here and to be honest i hardly care about anyones religion unlike many people here.Its my upbringing and i am proud of it.

This Army also belongs to Abdul Hameed and Abdul Qayuum and also to Bana Singh.

By putting religion card in everything we have only corrupted the system.

And i dont expect even 2% of the audience here to understand this.Had this been the case there wouldnt be any extremists..would they?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

These tweets from a veteran sum up the difference b/w very well;




.............................

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Screambowl

I can cite 3 awards from cross border raids but i wont.

My good friend died in one such raid taking a RPG hit..anyway whatever floats the boat of the agenda on twitter.

Is this officer from Infantry?

 

[pmaitra]

Yes, covert actions have been carried out in the past in response to TSPA's action @ LC. But, the point is that then the people had not asked for answers from the then establishment and the media wasn't as strong as it is currently. Also, the need for boasting of Army's action is necessary to tell the public that we have avenged and we will do what's necessary in response to TSPA's misadventures.

Actually that's the best strategy. Hit them hard catch them by balls and then yell out from top that we did this. What this does its putting pressure on Pak army which is being exposed in front of their population which thinks Pak army is invincible due to decades of lie propoganda fed by Pak army that India is a coward nation and 1 PA men is equal to 10 IA personnel. Their population still is under illusion that Pak won 1965 and Kargil war. That illusion and propoganda has to be broken to bring down morale of porki Army and public both.

Also we have to cater to world audience that we are no more sissies and we will hot pursue our enemies right into their own territories. This will also put pressure on Pakistan as world will ignore our actions as response to Pak actions and if Pakistan cries in front of world they will simply tell them to mend their ways first.

That is debatable, however, my comment was in defence of anyone, in this case Lt. Cdr. Gokul, who criticizes the boasting, and people, either due to ignorance or malice, add their own interpretation as to criticism of the military action.

 

[pmaitra]

If your enemy knows, it is no longer covert. Since this operation is known by Pakistan, why call it covert?

Hiding from your own people while your enemy knows what is going in is highly disgusting behaviour.

I think you are missing the point.

You say if the "enemy" knows, then it is no longer covert. How do you define the term "enemy?" Do you mean the Pakistani public or the Pakistani government? Please clarify and re-read my comment again.

During the Bangladesh Liberation War, a lot of things were hidden, and I do not see anything disgusting in it. Celebrations can come after victory. I don't know how to define victory in a conflict that is ongoing with no territorial fait accompli.

 

[delbruky]

DELETE 3000000000000000000000000000

 

[hit&run]

Indian Army kisi party ki baap ki jageer nhi hein ki election jeetne k liye operations karwa diye.

Indian Army is apoliticial just like Supreme court of India and most Indians like me didnt vote for Modi to ban cow meat or put Indian Army in election posters but for development.

I have a fucking huge problem if Army is brought into politics as this gives chance to Congress and AAP to make silly comments about Army.

Indian Army when declares it did surgical strike is the truth for me.No debate,No discussions no BC chest thumping over it.

Surgical strikes were also conducted by muslim soldiers who might not believe in hindu ideology.

I am not a hindutva agenda guy here and to be honest i hardly care about anyones religion unlike many people here.Its my upbringing and i am proud of it.

This Army also belongs to Abdul Hameed and Abdul Qayuum and also to Bana Singh.

By putting religion card in everything we have only corrupted the system.

And i dont expect even 2% of the audience here to understand this.Had this been the case there wouldnt be any extremists..would they?

Army is subservient to political dispensation. So stop this juvenile eulogising. No one is child here not see as the things are actually.

There are many instances when army obeyed political orders, which were made to fall into the garb of national security but were purely political.

Since Modi is an outcaste untouchable for self hating Lindus, everything he does become sinister even wearing army uniform during his visit to one of the forward post. Then use the pimp card of secularism; has become quite a predictable rejoinder.

For last 7-8 odd years we have been crying to make aggressions against Pakistan open. The advantages were discussed to donkey details. People were sick of these hearsay "my Uncle told me so" nonsense that Indian army was doing this and that.

What kind of coward government that will be who do not publicly decorates its men died in an action in enemy territory ?

It is so depressing that the things we fought against old dispensation are now taking shape in theory and practice but some random cocoon raids in to discredit it using same old sickening hysterics.

The mistake we did (was actually quite visible when Congi tools of this forum remained mum) was not taking account of the compromised internal burden of Lindus that only caters narrative of Congress-I; and it should have been weighed upon.

It is political will that asks Army to go public like they did last Surgical Strikes. The preparations and execution was finest example of coordination between Forces and Government. The follow up as population was evacuated from borders and diplomatic channels were made busy round the clock was continuity of the same coordination. The advantages outweighs disadvantages. Nothing that was done by Congress-I in last 2 decades.

 

[srutayus]

The whole point of such an operation is to be able to proclaim it publicly. Killing a few Pakistani soldiers privately and keeping it secret is pointless. There are many many more where they come from and they generally do not acknowledge their casualties.
Making the retaliation public is key to its effectiveness.

Besides the so called boasting is just the overblown discussion from our TV channels. The army has issued a professional statement and the government has been mostly quiet, letting the DGMO to do the talking.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

That is debatable, however, my comment was in defence of anyone, in this case Lt. Cdr. Gokul, who criticizes the boasting, and people, either due to ignorance or malice, add their own interpretation as to criticism of the military action.

The same Lt. Cdr Gokul criticized the PM for having SPG protection in the Army camp when he visited them during Deepawali. If I ain't wrong, he also questioned the authenticity of the SS last year. If you would ask me, I would put him in the same category of Ajai Shukla in terms of trustworthiness.

 

[Kshithij]

I think you are missing the point.

You say if the "enemy" knows, then it is no longer covert. How do you define the term "enemy?" Do you mean the Pakistani public or the Pakistani government? Please clarify and re-read my comment again.

During the Bangladesh Liberation War, a lot of things were hidden, and I do not see anything disgusting in it. Celebrations can come after victory. I don't know how to define victory in a conflict that is ongoing with no territorial fait accompli.

Either the public or government of Pakistan, both are enemies. This operation is clear cut without anything hidden. What is there to hide? If Pakistan can know, so can Indian public. It is always important to tell your people what you are doing so that the enemy is not able to spread rumours against you or because the public can be sure of your intentions.

In Bangladesh war, everything was hidden. The fact that it was a hindu genocide was hidden. Obviously, had that been told, tehre would have been riots and war in India and India would have freed of muslims forever and would have been much more beneficial. Bangladesh war only resulted in splitting of Pakistan into two without making them suffer any losses as such. The nations can reunite again. It i indeed disgusting as misinformation has resulted in poor decision making. Had people been better informed, people would have informed better.

Betrayal by rulers is a common thing. Rulers/Government is not divine. They are just another bunch of people with some responsibility. It is impossible to put full trust in anyone and hope that they don't betray. Every action which is not covert must be disclosed. Even when action is not possible to be disclosed, intention must be. Only when the intention of government is accepted by people, will the government be legitimate

 

[pmaitra]

The same Lt. Cdr Gokul criticized the PM for having SPG protection in the Army camp when he visited them during Deepawali. If I ain't wrong, he also questioned the authenticity of the SS last year. If you would ask me, I would put him in the same category of Ajai Shukla in terms of trustworthiness.

Yes, I am very much aware of that and I am not remotely impressed.

Lt. Cdr. Gokul was also abused. I have responded accordingly. Follow this link.

 

[Guest]

Indian Army kisi party ki baap ki jageer nhi hein ki election jeetne k liye operations karwa diye.

Indian Army is apoliticial just like Supreme court of India and most Indians like me didnt vote for Modi to ban cow meat or put Indian Army in election posters but for development.

I have a fucking huge problem if Army is brought into politics as this gives chance to Congress and AAP to make silly comments about Army.

Indian Army when declares it did surgical strike is the truth for me.No debate,No discussions no BC chest thumping over it.

Surgical strikes were also conducted by muslim soldiers who might not believe in hindu ideology.

I am not a hindutva agenda guy here and to be honest i hardly care about anyones religion unlike many people here.Its my upbringing and i am proud of it.

This Army also belongs to Abdul Hameed and Abdul Qayuum and also to Bana Singh.

By putting religion card in everything we have only corrupted the system.

And i dont expect even 2% of the audience here to understand this.Had this been the case there wouldnt be any extremists..would they?

You totally got the wrong impression, Army is not being used by any Political party here. Military is an institution used for political moves but that is another thing which I am sure will confuse you more and spoil everything. If you are insisting that Surgical Strikes took place after some political party insisted then It is totally wrong perception, the sooner you get that out of your head the better. Our Army is a National force, they don't take orders from the party, they simply say no we can't do that, just like Sam told Indira that he was not ready. Last time someone tried to do that in 62 by changing the commanders we all know what was the result.

Now what Army does is definitely used for politics, and It will be used.From Ancient era, remember Julius Caesar, Napoleon ? Lets say God forbid If last year's Strikes had turned into disaster what do you think would've happened ? Now don't say some party is different from others and they are holy(BJP) etc. All are same, I remember 2004 election was fought on Coffin ghotala and won. What happened to that ? Where is George Fernandes today? probably holidaying on an Island he bought from the ghotala money.

If you have problem, If someone bad mouths Army then counter them, whats the point in hiding the achievements just that someone doesn't abuse them, coz they'll abuse them anyway. How far should we go ? strip them off their medals so that some JNU turd doesn't bad mouth Armed forces coz that will be the next step, they'll start having problem with that also. Infact they celebrated the death of 75 CRPF personnel and do that every year only recently It was stopped.

It is very healthy If Army has dedicated soldiers from various religion and good thing for our country and that's It, these people join Army as Indians and not representatives of their caste or religion.This nonsense about Muslims joining the Army and gloating over it must stop.

You also seem confused about religion, what most of us follow is dharma, It is same for all Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhist etc. You seem to believe that Supreme court is apolitical you should read their Judgement on Hinduism. Take that definition as key and you will not see any problem. Those who don't understand It have problem due to their oxymoron misconceptions.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

Yes, I am very much aware of that and I am not remotely impressed.

Lt. Cdr. Gokul was also abused. I have responded accordingly. Follow this link.

Remotely impressed with Modi or him?
He was abused by me, yes. But, you have posted the reply to a totally different incident.

 

[pmaitra]

Either the public or government of Pakistan, both are enemies. This operation is clear cut without anything hidden. What is there to hide? If Pakistan can know, so can Indian public. It is always important to tell your people what you are doing so that the enemy is not able to spread rumours against you or because the public can be sure of your intentions.

In Bangladesh war, everything was hidden. The fact that it was a hindu genocide was hidden. Obviously, had that been told, tehre would have been riots and war in India and India would have freed of muslims forever and would have been much more beneficial. Bangladesh war only resulted in splitting of Pakistan into two without making them suffer any losses as such. The nations can reunite again. It i indeed disgusting as misinformation has resulted in poor decision making. Had people been better informed, people would have informed better.

Betrayal by rulers is a common thing. Rulers/Government is not divine. They are just another bunch of people with some responsibility. It is impossible to put full trust in anyone and hope that they don't betray. Every action which is not covert must be disclosed. Even when action is not possible to be disclosed, intention must be. Only when the intention of government is accepted by people, will the government be legitimate

I think you are missing the point again. If the public is unaware and the information remains within the government, then there is less pressure on the government to carry out further attacks.

Coming to Bangladesh, what you say might be correct, but you are forgetting the most important thing. India could not have made anything public until situations were favourable. It is a long discussion, but my point is, making covert actions public is not in the best interests.

Then there is the case of plausible deniability. We are also governed by international laws. This was true in 1971 and is true today.

Look at the screenshot below. I am glad we have professionals handling the public relations department of the army. Here is an example below.

 

[pmaitra]

Remotely impressed with Modi or him?
He was abused by me, yes. But, you have posted the reply to a totally different incident.

Oh, it was you? Interesting. I didn't quite bother to remember who did it. I responded and moved on.

The answer to your question lies in my post.

Yes, I meant every word I said in that post. Not interested in arguing it with anyone. Let's move on with each others' beliefs.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

but my point is, making covert actions public is not in the best interests.

Some operations are covert, and are meant to be so. Now, take for instance, we will never hear the actions of TSD, because they are not meant for public consumption. But, the SS was meant to be told to the public, infact, it was already decided that it will be announced the to public when the plans were drawn. Coming to cross-border raids, it need not be told to the public, but the public should hear about it, to know that the Army is giving back and avenging rather than just facing casualties.

 

[pmaitra]

Some operations are covert, and are meant to be so. Now, take for instance, we will never hear the actions of TSD, because they are not meant for public consumption. But, the SS was meant to be told to the public, infact, it was already decided that it will be announced the to public when the plans were drawn. Coming to cross-border raids, it need not be told to the public, but the public should hear about it, to know that the Army is giving back and avenging rather than just facing casualties.

That is a subjective conclusion. You may be right or wrong.

Let me give you the example of the 1971 war, if I may use 1971 instead of 1972.

• The covert action that was taking place was in violation of international laws. The military cannot contravene those laws.
• India was not only pitted against Pakistan, but there was a serious possibility of PRC and USA invading. We needed the backing of a superpower. So, we had to wait for the official backing of the Soviets.
• India had to wait for the summer to end and cooler weather to emerge. Indira Gandhi wanted to start the invasion, but Maneckshaw, not swayed by emotional outbursts, put his foot down and even offered to give up his rank.

After considering these, do you think all this boasting is done for the interests of the country or just to offer an emotional placebo for the public to munch on?

What counts is minimizing our casualties and maximizing their casualties.

I am very much in favour of transparency, if that is a justification, but it should be equitable. I don't like the idea of making this massive hullabaloo about Surgical Strikes when we have been doing this for decades. When we cherry pick instances, it trivializes the efforts and achievements of the predecessors.

 

[Guest]

I think you are missing the point again. If the public is unaware and the information remains within the government, then there is less pressure on the government to carry out further attacks.

Coming to Bangladesh, what you say might be correct, but you are forgetting the most important thing. India could not have made anything public until situations were favourable. It is a long discussion, but my point is, making covert actions public is not in the best interests.

Then there is the case of plausible deniability. We are also governed by international laws. This was true in 1971 and is true today.

Look at the screenshot below. I am glad we have professionals handling the public relations department of the army. Here is an example below.

View attachment 22247

In 1971 international laws prohibited any cross border action and It was seen as an act of war. After 9/11 UN adopted a resolution which allows the members to attack the area controlled by terrorists even If that involves crossing the international Border. It is through this resolution that USA attacked Afghanistan then. And this resolution is still being used by various countries to punish or harm various terrorist organizations and those who aid them.

Which is why after SS last year no country in the P5 came to the aid of Pakistan. Today all the P5 have satellites and monitor every move in conflict zones. Nothing is hidden, probably in 5-10 years even common civilians may have real time imaging, subject to reasonable restrictions by their respective Governments.

 

[pmaitra]

In 1971 international laws prohibited any cross border action and It was seen as an act of war. After 9/11 UN adopted a resolution which allows the members to attack the area controlled by terrorists even If that involves crossing the international Border. It is through this resolution that USA attacked Afghanistan then. And this resolution is still being used by various countries to punish or harm various terrorist organizations and those who aid them.

Which is why after SS last year no country in the P5 came to the aid of Pakistan. Today all the P5 have satellites and monitor every move in conflict zones. Nothing is hidden, probably in 5-10 years even common civilians may have real time imaging, subject to reasonable restrictions by their respective Governments.

You are right about that resolution. Does it help India?

The USA, Russia and PRC can do a lot of things that we cannot.

On top of that, we are not talking about only the international border. We are talking about the international border and the LoC. Even if we cross, how is the world going to react?

When the US invaded Afghanistan, all its allies lined up behind the big boss. That ain't happening with India.

No country came to the aid of Pakistan at various points in time, depending upon the situation. Remember Kargil and Sharif's meeting with Clinton?

The international community will go soft on India when some countries are trying to sell their weapons to India. The moment they realize we are not buying, they will start making a lot of noise. This is just one example.

We should not take these flip-flops as a permanent achievement. The international community still regards J&K as a disputed territory. We do not have the economic clout to change that.

Pakistan is an asset for many countries, especially the US, PRC, and KSA.

 

[Guest]

You are right about that resolution. Does it help India?

The USA, Russia and PRC can do a lot of things that we cannot.

On top of that, we are not talking about only the international border. We are talking about the international border and the LoC. Even if we cross, how is the world going to react?

When the US invaded Afghanistan, all its allies lined up behind the big boss. That ain't happening with India.

No country came to the aid of Pakistan at various points in time, depending upon the situation. Remember Kargil and Sharif's meeting with Clinton?

The international community will go soft on India when some countries are trying to sell their weapons to India. The moment they realize we are not buying, they will start making a lot of noise. This is just one example.

We should not take these flip-flops are a permanent achievement. The international community still regards J&K as a disputed territory. We do not have the economic clout to change that.

Pakistan is an asset for many countries, especially the US, PRC, and KSA.

I was taking about the International Law which is with us.

Why can't we don what USA, Russia and PRC can do, why is that or what stops us. Are we militarily incapable or do we lack international support even when we are doing thing prescribed by their law.

Pakistan crossed LoC in 1998/99 Kargil, How did the world react ? Compare that with SS 2016, agreed we didn't hold territories in PoK like Pakistan did back then, But It did involve firefight between regulars of Pakistan Army.

When India refused to attend SAARC in Pakistan almost all members stood by our side, two major countries in our region Bangladesh and Afghanistan supported our actions. Are we deliberately underestimation ourselves when It comes to international support ? Why didn't the Government allow targeting of terrorists camps in Pakistan after 26/11 when many killed were Americans and Israeli themselves, and they allowed us to interrogate their double agent for helping our case ? Do we expect others ton do our dirty Job and sacrifice their men for our benefits ?

No one supported Pakistan during Kargil because she was the aggressor, which she again was in 26/11 and in Uri last year.

International relations doesn't only depend on weapon's sale, How many countries sell weapon to China ? Why don't we use our Huge market and international trade as leverage as China does ? or our Huge diaspora in various countries holding important places in state offices and Politics like Israelis do.

International community will regard J&K as disputed, because of our own weakness or I would say not using our full potential, back in early 2000 China's economy was as big as ours and they took a stand on Tibet, today no country wants Dalai Lama, whatever lime light he gets is due to our efforts. Today after 3 years of hard work Kashmir dispute is no longer the top issue the top issue is cross border terrorism in the subcontinent, and the effect has been so strong that even Pakistanis are trying desperately to show themselves as victims of terrorism to counter the Indian narrative. Kashmir only gets cosmetic treatment in OIC meetings and Trump's baits.

The whole thing boils down to "Are the forces ready ? Are we capable enough ? Do we have the Political will ?", Soviet Union hardly exceeded 2.5 trillion USD GDP nominal. And faced immense international pressure, today Russia is far below that has much less influence and support. Under sanctions they hardly have much effect on international trade, other than perhaps reducing or increasing oil prices by regulating her own production and export.