S-400 performance in Syria = Paper Tiger

[StealthFlanker]

Yes the purpose of long range air defenses are to track and intercept missiles and aircrafts. but only units that are mobile are the short range air defense systems, there are EW systems present.

Based on the battalions of the amount of S-300s, S-400s, S-350s and soon to be S-500s(S-550s are only for space) there are probably more surface to air missiles than there are aircrafts with the combination of short range air defenses. passive detection, ew systems, short range SAMs bumping up to 48 missiles for drones. etc there are methods to improve missile defenses like pantsirs having twice the radar range and engaging hypersonic targets. B-21 is smaller than B-2 but the Su-70 is smaller than the B-21 with options of carrying Larva-MD hypersonic air to ground missiles meaning it is stealthier with more dangerous weapons which I think they themselves might have ran some combat scenarios about effectiveness. Amount of air defense resources to amount of air to ground resources is important.

At this point Larchinka-MD is still a research project and we don't have any specification of it yet .We don't know what the speed it will have, whether it is Mach 6, Mach 7 or Mach 8. We don't know what the range it will have whether it is 50 km or 100 km or 220 km. It not even done the prototype flight test like HAWC or AHW
Regarding B-21, it literally have 1 weapon bay of B-2 (B-2 has 2 weapon bay), so it will be capable of carrying not only AARGM-ER but also HAWC and ARRW as well

 

[JBH22]

It's unlike ly that India can hide behind its S-400 against China since China by now has mastered 100% S-400's vulnerabilities and blind spots since China also has S-400. And unfortunately for India, China will most likely let Pakistan in into these secrets and even train against S-400 system in exercises.

S-400 really is a very bad buy for India in the same league as that rubbish Russia aircraft carrier...

Your statement are very broad.
How does China buying S 400 makes it a better user than India. If system has gaps to exploits, I think both sides will know and therefore tactics will dictate victory. S-400 is better than no system in view of IAF dwindling squadron levels.

 

[Wisemarko]

an israeli F-16 couldn't avoid an S-200 missile despite having modern EW systems

Correct. Having modern EW but not using them can lead to unintended consequences. The pilot and navigator of that F-16I failed to deploy countermeasures despite ample warning from their electronics. Seven other F-16I made it back without any issues despite fired at by 27 missiles.

IAF INVESTIGATION FINDS THAT THE F-16I WAS SHOT DOWN BECAUSE ITS CREW "FAILED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES SUFFICIENTLY" - The Aviation Geek Club

IAF INVESTIGATION FINDS THAT THE F-16I WAS SHOT DOWN BECAUSE ITS CREW "FAILED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES SUFFICIENTLY"

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[Tshering22]

China does not need to study S-400's radar part by part to learn its weaknesses. It just need to conduct tests against it. As to THAAD, it's an ABM. Patriot is much suited for anti aircraft duties. And since these items are purely defensive I son't see a scenario where US will sanction these weapons in the future.

There are just multiple layers of air defense systems that will be deployed for PLAAF strike. The Himalayas are not that easy for them to breach, both in terms of man-made defense as well as the natural barriers.

Here is an area of what the Indo-Tibetan border looks like. This lake is 18,000 feet ASL. The mountains you can see here are another 3,000 - 5,000 feet higher. There is only 5% oxygen in the air even when winds are blowing at over 40-70 Km/hour with no vegetation to block it (at its highest). The angle where the photographer is standing, behind him about 1 KM away is the border. Troops are rotated every 15-20 days. Anything beyond that and you basically lose a year of your life.

This second picture is the "lower areas" of the border at ~13,000 feet along the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh on the far northeast (only Kingdom of Bhutan & a bit of Chinese-occupied Bhutanese territory separates my state from this place).

S-400 is just one factor; plenty of other elements are there that would affect our fight.

 

[blackjack]

At this point Larchinka-MD is still a research project and we don't have any specification of it yet .We don't know what the speed it will have, whether it is Mach 6, Mach 7 or Mach 8. We don't know what the range it will have whether it is 50 km or 100 km or 220 km. It not even done the prototype flight test like HAWC or AHW
Regarding B-21, it literally have 1 weapon bay of B-2 (B-2 has 2 weapon bay), so it will be capable of carrying not only AARGM-ER but also HAWC and ARRW as well

im still waiting for HAWC to be considered operational, its like that one time I thought MSDM would be the worlds 1st missile APS system for an aircraft but it turns out such a system is already operational on the tu-160M which of course is now operational. Carrying a hypersonic missile externally is as exciting to me as an aircraft carrying kinzhal, nothing internal.

 

[Op Kahuta]

Is it true what he says?

 

[THESIS THORON]

Is it true what he says?

he is halwai

biggest dephynse exfart ever present ......... period.

 

[Op Kahuta]

he is halwai

biggest dephynse exfart ever present ......... period.

Could you explain me in a little technical detail if possible how he is wrong. I am pretty new to air defenses so I'd like to learn about things.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Could you explain me in a little technical detail if possible how he is wrong. I am pretty new to air defenses so I'd like to learn about things.

ok,

first thing he says that in order to integrate you need to know how to build it, he is wrong because we have homemade world class air defense systems akash, akash ng, mrsam, qrsam, xrsam (it is in developement stage, last year there were tenders for the antenna and other things)



he also says that we need to integrate the s400 with the American systems

but where the heck are american air defense systems in our inventory ?? we dont have nasams-2, patriot, thaad.....

Now regarding the integration work.

we have high experience in doing this thing, we have integrate western python 5, derby, astra to our own tejas.

I dont remember the agency who does it but there is one. they look after all this integration work

 

[Op Kahuta]

ok,

first thing he says that in order to integrate you need to know how to build it, he is wrong because we have homemade world class air defense systems akash, akash ng, mrsam, qrsam, xrsam (it is in developement stage, last year there were tenders for the antenna and other things)



he also says that we need to integrate the s400 with the American systems

but where the heck are american air defense systems in our inventory ?? we dont have nasams-2, patriot, thaad.....

Now regarding the integration work.

we have high experience in doing this thing, we have integrate western python 5, derby, astra to our own tejas.

I dont remember the agency who does it but there is one. they look after all this integration work

Thanks for the explanation bro. One more question though, is p8i iff feeded into s400? Cuz I read on internet that US wouldn't allow their critical data to be feeded into s400?

 

[THESIS THORON]

Thanks for the explanation bro. One more question though, is p8i iff feeded into s400? Cuz I read on internet that US wouldn't allow their critical data to be feeded into s400?

imo we have done some kind of arrangement so that russian systems cant get the ew information of us systems.

ofc, I dont know much abt it.

btw, p8i was used in india china 2020 skirmish.

and this might also be the reason why goi has stopped the process of acqiring more p8i, drdo is making a c295 based mpa and istar platform.

 

[StealthFlanker]

im still waiting for HAWC to be considered operational, its like that one time I thought MSDM would be the worlds 1st missile APS system for an aircraft but it turns out such a system is already operational on the tu-160M which of course is now operational. Carrying a hypersonic missile externally is as exciting to me as an aircraft carrying kinzhal, nothing internal.

Rear launching missile is NOT operational on Tu-160M yet, what we know now is that Tu-160M will have a radar at the rear so that it WILL be able to aim and launch a rear firing missile. Similarly, MSDN is still very far from production, there is no test that we know of either.
By contrast,the first APS on fighter is IRIS-T and has already been tested and went to full production for 17 years

 

[jackprince]

Is it true what he says?

The joke is that this moron gets invited to debates for his 'eggspurtise'!

But then TV debates are full of morons.

 

[blackjack]

Rear launching missile is NOT operational on Tu-160M yet, what we know now is that Tu-160M will have a radar at the rear so that it WILL be able to aim and launch a rear firing missile. Similarly, MSDN is still very far from production, there is no test that we know of either.
By contrast,the first APS on fighter is IRIS-T and has already been tested and went to full production for 17 years

IRIS-T was not what I meant, I was talking about a hardkill APS system with missiles the physically destroys other missiles.

Источник: Ту-160М станет первым самолетом с ракетами обратного старта - РИА Новости, 04.02.2022 (ria.ru)

Source RIA Novosti: Tu-160M will be the world's first aircraft with reverse launch missiles

MOSCOW, February 4-RIA Novosti. The upgraded Tu-160M strategic bomber will become the world's first aircraft with reverse launch missiles - they are capable of intercepting targets located "behind its back", a source in the aircraft industry told RIA Novosti.
As reported, the first built from scratch strategic bomber-missile carrier Tu-160M made its debut 30-minute flight on January 12 this year. The new aircraft received upgraded engines, updated avionics and avionics, as well as new weapons control systems.
"The first newly manufactured Tu-160M is equipped with a rear-view radar station, which will allow the aircraft to use so-called reverse launch missiles for self-defense against air-to-air, surface-to-air missiles and fighters. Such air-to-air missiles will target targets in the rear hemisphere, that is, those located "behind" the Tu - 160M, according to the target designation of the bomber's tail radar, "the source said.
The source added that " the use of rear-view radar on heavy bombers is most appropriate, since these are low-maneuverable vehicles that simply may not have time to turn their nose to the enemy."
On the basic version of the Tu-160, there is no tail radar. The source also clarified that reverse launch missiles can hit targets in the front hemisphere. When hitting targets in the rear hemisphere, according to target designation from the tail radar, they turn 180 degrees in flight.


ASB News / MILITARYPart alternation mark
@ASBMilitary
·
6h
Russia’s Defense Ministry will receive the first newly-built Tu-160M strategic missile-carrying bomber at the end of the second quarter of this year for subsequent state trials and operational service — initially it was supposed to be delivered 2024

 

[StealthFlanker]

IRIS-T was not what I meant, I was talking about a hardkill APS system with missiles the physically destroys other missiles.

That exactly what IRIS-T capable of. Read the last line.

View attachment 137725
Источник: Ту-160М станет первым самолетом с ракетами обратного старта - РИА Новости, 04.02.2022 (ria.ru)

Source RIA Novosti: Tu-160M will be the world's first aircraft with reverse launch missiles

MOSCOW, February 4-RIA Novosti. The upgraded Tu-160M strategic bomber will become the world's first aircraft with reverse launch missiles - they are capable of intercepting targets located "behind its back", a source in the aircraft industry told RIA Novosti.
As reported, the first built from scratch strategic bomber-missile carrier Tu-160M made its debut 30-minute flight on January 12 this year. The new aircraft received upgraded engines, updated avionics and avionics, as well as new weapons control systems.
"The first newly manufactured Tu-160M is equipped with a rear-view radar station, which will allow the aircraft to use so-called reverse launch missiles for self-defense against air-to-air, surface-to-air missiles and fighters. Such air-to-air missiles will target targets in the rear hemisphere, that is, those located "behind" the Tu - 160M, according to the target designation of the bomber's tail radar, "the source said.
The source added that " the use of rear-view radar on heavy bombers is most appropriate, since these are low-maneuverable vehicles that simply may not have time to turn their nose to the enemy."
On the basic version of the Tu-160, there is no tail radar. The source also clarified that reverse launch missiles can hit targets in the front hemisphere. When hitting targets in the rear hemisphere, according to target designation from the tail radar, they turn 180 degrees in flight.


ASB News / MILITARYPart alternation mark
@ASBMilitary
·
6h
Russia’s Defense Ministry will receive the first newly-built Tu-160M strategic missile-carrying bomber at the end of the second quarter of this year for subsequent state trials and operational service — initially it was supposed to be delivered 2024

Yes, we read the same article about Tu-160M. The rear launch missile is the incoming capability, not what currently in use. Tu-160M literally have just make the debut flight.

 

[blackjack]

Yes, we read the same article about Tu-160M. The rear launch missile is the incoming capability, not what currently in use. Tu-160M literally have just make the debut flight.

you sure? i bolded the 2nd line because it seems they said the tu-160 had frontal capabilities of it.

 

[blackjack]

more random info i found.

Р-73 / РВВ-МД - АA-11 ARCHER | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

- R-73M / R-73 RMD-2 - a version of the missile with improved performance characteristics and a new seeker (with the characteristics of the Mayak GOS), first shown at the MAKS-1997 air show. According to the exhibition - missile tests began at the end of 1994, the missile is ready for mass production. In general, the creation of a modification of the K-73 with an expanded zone of destruction began by the decision of the military-industrial complex under the Council of Ministers of the USSR of February 13, 1984. Later, work on the rocket was set by the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR of December 28, 1984 In 1988-1989, the first 16 prototypes of new missiles were manufactured. The R-73 RMD-2 rocket model has the ability to be launched into the rear hemisphere of the carrier and can be used against air-to-air missiles.

Was Iris-T used against rear targets or was it just frontal like the Tu-160?

 

[StealthFlanker]

more random info i found.

Р-73 / РВВ-МД - АA-11 ARCHER | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

- R-73M / R-73 RMD-2 - a version of the missile with improved performance characteristics and a new seeker (with the characteristics of the Mayak GOS), first shown at the MAKS-1997 air show. According to the exhibition - missile tests began at the end of 1994, the missile is ready for mass production. In general, the creation of a modification of the K-73 with an expanded zone of destruction began by the decision of the military-industrial complex under the Council of Ministers of the USSR of February 13, 1984. Later, work on the rocket was set by the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR of December 28, 1984 In 1988-1989, the first 16 prototypes of new missiles were manufactured. The R-73 RMD-2 rocket model has the ability to be launched into the rear hemisphere of the carrier and can be used against air-to-air missiles.

Was Iris-T used against rear targets or was it just frontal like the Tu-160?

Iris-T can be used against both frontal and rear hemisphere targets

 

[Wisemarko]

Iris-T can be used against both frontal and rear hemisphere targets
View attachment 137753

AIM-9x Sidewinder can also engage targets at 180 degrees.
"Raptor next round of upgrades around 2019, which allow it to field the AIM-9X block II. This second iteration of the AIM-9X is already operational and features lock-on-after-launch capability. This will allow Raptor pilots to engage a target without locking the AIM-9X's gimbaled seeker onto that target before firing. The missile is equipped with a data-link and upgraded autopilot that receives information from the launch aircraft as to where the target is located in space and time so that it can fly-out toward it once it has left the jet's launch rail. In some cases, the missile can make a nearly 180 degree turns to engage targets behind the aircraft, and then lock onto them once headed in that opposite direction."
-the Drive
F-16/15/18 have this ability since 2015.

 

[StealthFlanker]

AIM-9x Sidewinder can also engage targets at 180 degrees.

Yes it can, so is Mica, ASRAAM, Python-5..etc