S-400 performance in Syria = Paper Tiger

asianobserve

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AARGM-ER killer. https://www.janes.com/article/89867...ty-commander-dubs-s-350-cruise-missile-killer

Col Muravkin claimed that the Pantsir-S short-range air defence (SHORAD) system had been used to "deal effectively with" Grad rockets fired by the BM-21 multiple rocket launcher system, small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and quadcopters over the last year and a half and had countered air-to-surface missiles and aircraft for a "long time".

The colonel added that the recently unveiled Pantsir-SM will counter future threats such as hypersonic missiles and UAV swarms, stressing that in addition to a new radar, greater processing power, and missiles with greater speed, range, and payload, the Pantsir-SM will use artificial intelligence.

Col Muravkin also stated that because of the proliferation of precision-guided munitions (PGMs), the focus is shifting from area to point air defence with Pantsir systems, while S-400 SAM systems will deal with aircraft before they launch PGMs.


we got killers everywhere.

You mean this Pantsir that Israelis destroy routinely will stop AARGM-ER?



Note that the AARGM-ER has twice the speed of the latest AARGM which is touted to be at Mach 2, so AARGM-ER is Mach 4 at terminal phase.

 
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blackjack

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You mean this Pantsir that Israelis destroy routinely will stop AARGM-ER?



Note that the AARGM-ER has twice the speed of the latest AARGM which is touted to be at Mach 2, so AARGM-ER is Mach 4 at terminal phase.


doesnt seem operational in that video to me here are better results.

pantsir drones.jpg


turk cope 5.png

turk cope 9.jpg

turkish drone downed for days.png

evil toyota..jpg

evil fuso.png

BREAKING! Russian Pantsir Took Down More Than 40 Turkish Drones Bayraktar and Anka - YouTube

since you like Israel maybe you will like them praising the systems with the U.S. as well:hehe:


But AARGM-ER is not even hypersonic
 

asianobserve

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doesnt seem operational in that video to me here are better results.

View attachment 136989

View attachment 136990
View attachment 136991
View attachment 136992
View attachment 136993
View attachment 136994
BREAKING! Russian Pantsir Took Down More Than 40 Turkish Drones Bayraktar and Anka - YouTube

since you like Israel maybe you will like them praising the systems with the U.S. as well:hehe:


But AARGM-ER is not even hypersonic
There were 2 Pantsirs destroyed by Israelis in that video. The first Pantsir shown at the start of the video fired 2 missiles.
 

Tshering22

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This will be interesting. S-400 did not function in Syria because Russians are not concerned about what Israelis or Turks do with Assad's property. the S-400s there are being manned by Russian personnel. Given Israel's close political engagement with Russia, they would have notified the Russians that the target is not their asset. Otherwise it is impossible for the Russians to not react.

On topic, these things are difficult to say whether the S-400 can shoot down F-35s or this new S-400 killer is really the killer they claim it to be. Till either of them take out the other, we are just being bombarded with marketing material from either side. :lol:

The S-400 should be enough in dealing with either China or Pakistan for our immediate requirements. It will also be probably the last collective air defense system we import.
 

Wisemarko

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these things are difficult to say whether the S-400 can shoot down F-35s or this new S-400 killer is really the killer they claim it to be.
Agreed. See first, shoot first. Here's what S-400 can do:


The engagement range is different than "when S-400 can track the F-35" which could be much higher if UHF band radars are used. It was reported that Turks tracked F-35 with their S-400 radars at 200km. This is entirely possible using stealth detecting long wavelength radars. These radars lack precision and hence cannot be used to guide the missile to target. For engagement, L band or S band radars are used which are very accurate (S more than L) but not that good at detecting stealth.

Now, the most basic ARM has a range in excess of 50nm and new AARGM-ER has range over 100nm. So if S-400 is not protected by other assets, it will be blown to smithereens by F-35 before it can take on F-35. However it will detect the presence of F-35 (but not precise coordinates) much earlier.

F57D795B-ED11-486F-9DB0-474524BA9EA5.jpeg
 
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asianobserve

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This will be interesting. S-400 did not function in Syria because Russians are not concerned about what Israelis or Turks do with Assad's property. the S-400s there are being manned by Russian personnel. Given Israel's close political engagement with Russia, they would have notified the Russians that the target is not their asset. Otherwise it is impossible for the Russians to not react.

On topic, these things are difficult to say whether the S-400 can shoot down F-35s or this new S-400 killer is really the killer they claim it to be. Till either of them take out the other, we are just being bombarded with marketing material from either side. :lol:

The S-400 should be enough in dealing with either China or Pakistan for our immediate requirements. It will also be probably the last collective air defense system we import.

It's unlike ly that India can hide behind its S-400 against China since China by now has mastered 100% S-400's vulnerabilities and blind spots since China also has S-400. And unfortunately for India, China will most likely let Pakistan in into these secrets and even train against S-400 system in exercises.

S-400 really is a very bad buy for India in the same league as that rubbish Russia aircraft carrier... :creepy:
 

asianobserve

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Agreed. See first, shoot first. Here's what S-400 can do:


The engagement range is different than "when S-400 can track the F-35" which could be much higher if UHF band radars are used. It was reported that Turks tracked F-35 with their S-400 radars at 200km. This is entirely possible using stealth detecting long wavelength radars. These radars lack precision and hence cannot be used to guide the missile to target. For engagement, L band or S band radars are used which are very accurate (S more than L) but not that good at detecting stealth.

Now, the most basic ARM has a range in excess of 50nm and new AARGM-ER has range over 100nm. So if S-400 is not protected by other assets, it will be blown to smithereens by F-35 before it can take on F-35. However it will detect the presence of F-35 (but not precise coordinates) much earlier.

View attachment 137199

You mean the US operated an F-35 close to a Turkish S-400 with the F-35's Lunenberg lense removed in peacetime? That's highly unusual.

Can a Lunenberg lense's power be dialed up and down?
 
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blackjack

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ahh that meme image of how close stealth can get to S-400, good times. Although it is funny because they said the F-35 is more stealth than the F-22 so there goes the meme image. also lower frequencies are good enough its the tracking homing host radars tracking capabilities to worry about. There are Nebo-m, nebo-t radars for s-400 and Nioby in developement

And Israrli weapons used to defeat Pantsirs were subsonic.
or reloading we saw many examples of what happens when they are actually being used.
 

asianobserve

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ahh that meme image of how close stealth can get to S-400, good times. Although it is funny because they said the F-35 is more stealth than the F-22 so there goes the meme image. also lower frequencies are good enough its the tracking homing host radars tracking capabilities to worry about. There are Nebo-m, nebo-t radars for s-400 and Nioby in developement



or reloading we saw many examples of what happens when they are actually being used.

The biggest problems with S-400 are that it is stationary and is in use by several countries including US allies thus its weak spots are most likely already well mapped out.

So a top tier country like the US can easily avoid or dismantle an S-400 with a combination of platforms and methods of attack. Note that the F-35 is not the only asset that will attack an S-400. A more potent platform in B-2 and another which soon come online in the form if B-21 will further shrink the engagement distance against S-400. We are not even talking yet of the space based sensors, stealth cruise missiles, AARM-ER, swarming glide bombs, swarming UAVs, etc. that will be unleashed on a stationary S-400.
 

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The biggest problems with S-400 are that it is stationary and is in use by several countries including US allies thus its weak spots are most likely already well mapped out.

So a top tier country like the US can easily avoid or dismantle an S-400 with a combination of platforms and methods of attack. Note that the F-35 is not the only asset that will attack an S-400. A more potent platform in B-2 and another which soon come online in the form if B-21 will further shrink the engagement distance against S-400. We are not even talking yet of the space based sensors, stealth cruise missiles, AARM-ER, swarming glide bombs, swarming UAVs, etc. that will be unleashed on a stationary S-400.
Yes the purpose of long range air defenses are to track and intercept missiles and aircrafts. but only units that are mobile are the short range air defense systems, there are EW systems present.

Based on the battalions of the amount of S-300s, S-400s, S-350s and soon to be S-500s(S-550s are only for space) there are probably more surface to air missiles than there are aircrafts with the combination of short range air defenses. passive detection, ew systems, short range SAMs bumping up to 48 missiles for drones. etc there are methods to improve missile defenses like pantsirs having twice the radar range and engaging hypersonic targets. B-21 is smaller than B-2 but the Su-70 is smaller than the B-21 with options of carrying Larva-MD hypersonic air to ground missiles meaning it is stealthier with more dangerous weapons which I think they themselves might have ran some combat scenarios about effectiveness. Amount of air defense resources to amount of air to ground resources is important.
 

asianobserve

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Yes the purpose of long range air defenses are to track and intercept missiles and aircrafts. but only units that are mobile are the short range air defense systems, there are EW systems present.

Based on the battalions of the amount of S-300s, S-400s, S-350s and soon to be S-500s(S-550s are only for space) there are probably more surface to air missiles than there are aircrafts with the combination of short range air defenses. passive detection, ew systems, short range SAMs bumping up to 48 missiles for drones. etc there are methods to improve missile defenses like pantsirs having twice the radar range and engaging hypersonic targets. B-21 is smaller than B-2 but the Su-70 is smaller than the B-21 with options of carrying Larva-MD hypersonic air to ground missiles meaning it is stealthier with more dangerous weapons which I think they themselves might have ran some combat scenarios about effectiveness. Amount of air defense resources to amount of air to ground resources is important.

SAM missiles are 100% useless if the SAM sensor and targeting system can be jammed, spoofed, blinded, avoided or its detection distance shortened (plus long range ARM and/or stealthy cruise missiles). And Pantsirs have been proven too vulnerable in Syria and Lybia by less powerful countries. How much more the US or China with their full compliment of offensive sensors, electronic and kenetic weapons.
 

blackjack

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SAM missiles are 100% useless if the SAM sensor and targeting system can be spoofed, blinded, avoided or its detection distance shortened (plus long range ARM and/or stealthy cruise missiles).
dont know about avoided, an israeli F-16 couldn't avoid an S-200 missile despite having modern EW systems, air to ground missiles can be blinded and spoofed as well since the purpose of the krasukha-4 is not to stand around and look pretty. if SAM radars get jammed there is a purpose to having passive detection like moskva-1, The czechs have seemed confident they detected stealth aircrafts like Germany did but that no one can comment on.

Pantsirs have been proven too vulnerable in Syria and Lybia by less powerful countries. How much more the US or China with their full compliment of offensive weapons. S-400 does not stand a chance.
dont know about vulnerability because Israel has to use multiple waves of attacks to overwhelm pantsir-s1s meaning they had used more resources for a location in Syria, than the Syrians who are tasked to defend the entire country by themselves. No data on S-400 because they have not used them.
 

Tshering22

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It's unlikely that India can hide behind its S-400 against China since China by now has mastered 100% S-400's vulnerabilities and blind spots since China also has S-400.

And unfortunately for India, China will most likely let Pakistan in into these secrets and even train against S-400 system in exercises.
S-400 really is a very bad buy for India in the same league as that rubbish Russia aircraft carrier... :creepy:
Russia being the manufacturer won't be that stupid that it would sell everyone the same thing. There are bound to be tweaks and customization. The Chinese and we have shared our weapons platforms with Russia as a common supplier for the last 60 years.

While external appearance and extreme performance envelopes might be the same, we usually ask for modifications when using similar products to suit our needs or integrate with the indigenous SAMs. S-400 as you know, is not a monolithic missile. It has tiered missiles that are designed to hit targets at different distances and types. I don't know whether we have specifically asked for the changes here, but given that China got them before us, I am willing to guess that we would have.

S-400s also protect critical Russian installations and Russia's air defense systems have a reputation worldwide. These marketing fluff items are just corporations playing mind games. Do you really think that Putin won't factor in NATO capabilities and put AD systems around his cities? Come on!

Israelis keep lobbying Russia not to give S-300PUs to Iran and Syria for a damn reason. And those are older systems.
 

asianobserve

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Russia being the manufacturer won't be that stupid that it would sell everyone the same thing. There are bound to be tweaks and customization. The Chinese and we have shared our weapons platforms with Russia as a common supplier for the last 60 years.

While external appearance and extreme performance envelopes might be the same, we usually ask for modifications when using similar products to suit our needs or integrate with the indigenous SAMs. S-400 as you know, is not a monolithic missile. It has tiered missiles that are designed to hit targets at different distances and types. I don't know whether we have specifically asked for the changes here, but given that China got them before us, I am willing to guess that we would have.

S-400s also protect critical Russian installations and Russia's air defense systems have a reputation worldwide. These marketing fluff items are just corporations playing mind games. Do you really think that Putin won't factor in NATO capabilities and put AD systems around his cities?
Yes the S-400 has several kinds of missiles, but it has similar radars. And the key to SAMs is the radar. If the radar comoromised then the whole SAM is compromised no matter how impressive its missiles are.
 

Tshering22

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Yes the S-400 has several kinds of missiles, but it has similar radars. And the key to SAMs is the radar. If the radar comoromised then the whole SAM is compromised no matter how impressive its missiles are.
China hasn't had enough time to reverse engineer the S-400s. They were already very capable in cyber-espionage and would have not even bothered ordering it had they stolen the blueprints through hacks. Chinese are good but not that good. 3 years is too short.

In our case, THAAD was definitely not an option here since we don't want end-user controls on something that critical. And Pradyumna ADS was 5 years away (in 2018). So S-400 was the only thing we could have.
 

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Concern "Almaz-Antey" presented a new mobile complex to combat drones (topwar.ru)

Concern "Almaz-Antey" presented a new mobile complex to combat drones

Enlarge this image Click to see fullsize
Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 9 Rosc-1-belyj-1

Complex ROSC-1

The Russian concern VKO Almaz-Antey has developed a mobile version of the ROSC-1 radar-optical complex, designed to protect objects from drones.

The website of the Lianozovo Electromechanical Plant, which is part of Almaz-Antey, reports that the ROSC-1 complex is designed to provide comprehensive monitoring of the air situation, to detect and recognize various types of air objects, including small and low-speed UAVs.

The complex is located on the KamAZ chassis, the radar and equipment are built into the body, and the operator's station is also located there. In addition, the complex can be controlled remotely. The radar of the complex can detect drones at a distance of 15 km, thermal imagers and cameras also allow you to detect unmanned aerial vehicles 360 degrees around the car. The range of impact on intruder drones, according to a press release, is 2 km, reports TASS.

Earlier it was reported that the ROSC-1 complex is an export version of the new 117Zh6 RLC-MC Valdai radar complex, created for the Russian army. A prototype of the Valdai was first shown at the Army forum in 2018. Outwardly, both complexes are very similar, the differences are in the "stuffing".


Enlarge this image Click to see fullsize
Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 9 1614617542_5

Complex "Valdai"

RLC-MC "Valdai" is able to independently deal with detected drones. To do this, it includes an interference module capable of suppressing control and navigation signals. In addition, a drone interceptor can be introduced into the composition.
 

asianobserve

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China hasn't had enough time to reverse engineer the S-400s. They were already very capable in cyber-espionage and would have not even bothered ordering it had they stolen the blueprints through hacks. Chinese are good but not that good. 3 years is too short.

In our case, THAAD was definitely not an option here since we don't want end-user controls on something that critical. And Pradyumna ADS was 5 years away (in 2018). So S-400 was the only thing we could have.
China does not need to study S-400's radar part by part to learn its weaknesses. It just need to conduct tests against it.

As to THAAD, it's an ABM. Patriot is much suited for anti aircraft duties. And since these items are purely defensive I son't see a scenario where US will sanction these weapons in the future.
 

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