S-400 performance in Syria = Paper Tiger

[asianobserve]

Any system has it shortcomings. Don't tell me Patriot is fool proof system.
S-400 has to be deployed as part of multi layered system. What it seems Indian have not purchased Russian short and medium range system to deploy it with S 400.
Can this be an issue as existing system cannot be integrated with S 400. Moreover a point defence CIWS is crucial to protect from small drones.
No idea if this was taken care of.

But US is very selective on who it sells its Patriot and it keeps close eye on its Patriots even in foreign hands to avoid the system being compromised.

Russia on the other hand is so desperate to sell that it sells to enemies, to China, India, then to Turkey, a NATO member...

 

[JBH22]

But US is very selective on who it sells its Patriot and it keeps close eye on its Patriots even in foreign hands to avoid the system being compromised.

Russia on the other hand is so desperate to sell that it sells to enemies, to China, India, then to Turkey, a NATO member...

Selling to Turkey created trouble for unity of the alliance, forced US to kick its largest NATO partner out thr F 35 program and caused tension.
Most likely it is a monkey model exported, China did not get the 400km missile.
All countries are desperate to sell their weapons. If there was no CAATSA more countries would have purchased it.

 

[asianobserve]

Selling to Turkey created trouble for unity of the alliance, forced US to kick its largest NATO partner out thr F 35 program and caused tension.
Most likely it is a monkey model exported, China did not get the 400km missile.
All countries are desperate to sell their weapons. If there was no CAATSA more countries would have purchased it.

No doubt S-400 created a wrinkle between Turkey and NATO but despite Erdogan's humungous ego he will not pull Turkey out of NATO. In fact, Erdogan already climb down from his F-35 demand and now only wants F-16's, but even this request is still being deliberated by the US.

Russia's desperate need for cash on the other hand is turning it's S-400 into everybody's b*tch, and India is paying for everbody's b*tch...

 

[JBH22]

No doubt S-400 created a wrinkle between Turkey and NATO but despite Erdogan's humungous ego he will not pull Turkey out of NATO. In fact, Erdogan already climb down from his F-35 demand and now only wants F-16's, but even this request is still being deliberated by the US.

Russia's desperate need for cash on the other hand is turning it's S-400 into everybody's b*tch, and India is paying for everbody's b*tch...

Actually, we operate Sukhoi which is operated by PLAAF also. If we go for F-16 which US want to shove down our throat then PAF is using it.
Rafale is used by Qatar a not so friendly state. If you want exclusivity build your own thing.
Therefore, your assumption that just because other are using S 400 it is useless for India. That's ridiculous.

 

[asianobserve]

Actually, we operate Sukhoi which is operated by PLAAF also. If we go for F-16 which US want to shove down our throat then PAF is using it.
Rafale is used by Qatar a not so friendly state. If you want exclusivity build your own thing.
Therefore, your assumption that just because other are using S 400 it is useless for India. That's ridiculous.

The difference with F-16 is that with India's order size, India would have a virtual veto on F-16 maintenance. What's more, what was on offer to India is a very different aircraft than that operated by PAF with the new SABR EASA radar and an India-specific EW system. The electronic emissions of the F-21 will be different than PAF's Block 50. Plus Indian F-21 would have a longer service life plus 40% more weapons carrying capacity than PAF F-16.

Had India purchased F-21 it would have essentially paralyzed PAF F-16 fleet, it's most formidable.

France is also another country desperate to sell and would sell to opposing countries. So Rafale is another expensive bad buy.

 

[JBH22]

The difference with F-16 is that with India's order size, India would have a virtual veto on F-16 maintenance. What's more, what was on offer to India is a very different aircraft than that operated by PAF with the new SABR EASA radar and an India-specific EW system. The electronic emissions of the F-21 will be different than PAF's Block 50. Plus Indian F-21 would have a longer service life plus 40% more weapons carrying capacity than PAF F-16.

Yes, giving us veto power on legacy system. Smart move. But here it seems you are not worried about our main adversary operating this plane since 1980s

Had India purchased F-21 it would have essentially paralyzed PAF F-16 fleet, it's most formidable.

Even under embargo iran maintains its F 14 Fleet.
More over, MLU of Pakistani fleet being done by Turkey.

France is also another country desperate to sell and would sell to opposing countries. So Rafale is another expensive bad buy.

It is selling like hot cakes. Plus we have good experience with Dassault planes. No sanction no end user agreement certification. Basically buy and use.

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, giving us veto power on legacy system. Smart move. But here it seems you are not worried about our main adversary operating this plane since 1980s


Even under embargo iran maintains its F 14 Fleet.
More over, MLU of Pakistani fleet being done by Turkey.

The modernized F-21 is better than all modernized Russian fighters and equally competitive with very expensive Rafale. India can induct at least twice the number of F-21s for every Rafale. That's a lot of advantage.

It is selling like hot cakes. Plus we have good experience with Dassault planes. No sanction no end user agreement certification. Basically buy and use.

You're funny. Rafale has lost 100% to F-35 in international sales and is only purchased by those who are not allowed to buy the F-35.

 

[johnj]

Any system has it shortcomings. Don't tell me Patriot is fool proof system.
S-400 has to be deployed as part of multi layered system. What it seems Indian have not purchased Russian short and medium range system to deploy it with S 400.
Can this be an issue as existing system cannot be integrated with S 400. Moreover a point defence CIWS is crucial to protect from small drones.
No idea if this was taken care of.

Air defence guns with rf fcr. spyder. akash. barak8. s400. plus upgraded outdated ones. also anti drone systems.

 

[johnj]

The difference with F-16 is that with India's order size, India would have a virtual veto on F-16 maintenance. What's more, what was on offer to India is a very different aircraft than that operated by PAF with the new SABR EASA radar and an India-specific EW system. The electronic emissions of the F-21 will be different than PAF's Block 50. Plus Indian F-21 would have a longer service life plus 40% more weapons carrying capacity than PAF F-16.

Had India purchased F-21 it would have essentially paralyzed PAF F-16 fleet, it's most formidable.

France is also another country desperate to sell and would sell to opposing countries. So Rafale is another expensive bad buy.

Iaf rejected f16,f18 and f21. Also f35 don't meet iaf or goi requirement.
Goi buying usa weapons for nsg, zero sanctions, support in un. Usa happy to sell f16 to paf, without discount and paf not interested in non discounted f16 and they choose jf17, j10. According to paf, jf17 similar to f16.
Usa failed find enough nsg support for india.
In the case of s400, goi buying ssn, ffg, tanks, missiles, guns,helio etc from russia.

 

[asianobserve]

Iaf rejected f16,f18 and f21. Also f35 don't meet iaf or goi requirement.
Goi buying usa weapons for nsg, zero sanctions, support in un. Usa happy to sell f16 to paf, without discount and paf not interested in non discounted f16 and they choose jf17, j10. According to paf, jf17 similar to f16.
Usa failed find enough nsg support for india.
In the case of s400, goi buying ssn, ffg, tanks, missiles, guns,helio etc from russia.

F-35 is not being offered to India at the moment. So I do not know where you got the idea that GOI rejected it.

The only useful weapon India can buy from Russia right now is nuclear sub.

 

[JBH22]

The modernized F-21 is better than all modernized Russian fighters and equally competitive with very expensive Rafale. India can induct at least twice the number of F-21s for every Rafale. That's a lot of advantage.

Nope it's just old wine in new bottle.
Re inventing the whole for a platform that might just last for another 20 years is not ingenious.
Might as well we focus on our local products and deeply modernise existing fleet. F-21 makes no sense.

You're funny. Rafale has lost 100% to F-35 in international sales and is only purchased by those who are not allowed to buy the F-35.

The fact that arm twisting by US is not factored by you in this equation. On stand alone basis the Rafale is far better option for us. F 35 comes with lots of string attached. Plus we are poor country cannot acquire such platform in large numbers

 

[asianobserve]

Nope it's just old wine in new bottle.
Re inventing the whole for a platform that might just last for another 20 years is not ingenious.
Might as well we focus on our local products and deeply modernise existing fleet. F-21 makes no sense.


The fact that arm twisting by US is not factored by you in this equation. On stand alone basis the Rafale is far better option for us. F 35 comes with lots of string attached. Plus we are poor country cannot acquire such platform in large numbers

Arm twisting? You're really a funny man. The only arm twisting the Americans are doing is to stop countries like Turkey from insisting on buying the F-35. So it's reverse arm twisting.

France has pressured Belgium a lot to buy Rafale. But in the end, Belgium, the seat of the EU, bought the F-35.

 

[Marliii]

Arm twisting? You're really a funny man. The only arm twisting the Americans are doing is to stop countries like Turkey from insisting on buying the F-35. So it's reverse arm twisting.

France has pressured Belgium a lot to buy Rafale. But in the end, Belgium, the seat of the EU, bought the F-35.

Has that F35 under south china sea found yet?

 

[asianobserve]

Has that F35 under south china sea found yet?

The F-35C that crashed was never lost. It fell into the sea in front of an aircraft carrier and its descent into the debts was no doubt monitored by onboard sonars of the aircraft carrier and surface and submarine escorts (CBGs always operate with submarine escorts). Also I think F-35s have on board beacons for such cases.

The challenge is on salvaging it. But considering that the Americans were even able to raise a Soviet nuclear submarine in the 70's then raising that F-35C from the bottom of the SCS is only a matter of time.

 

[JBH22]

Arm twisting? You're really a funny man. The only arm twisting the Americans are doing is to stop countries like Turkey from insisting on buying the F-35. So it's reverse arm twisting.

France has pressured Belgium a lot to buy Rafale. But in the end, Belgium, the seat of the EU, bought the F-35.

I really don't understand what is funny.
In the Swiss, Singapore and South Korea all were arm twisted by Uncle Sam to oust Rafale.
If you recall Australia deal, the French were at the last moment pipped by US.
F-35 nor F-16 meet Indian Air force requirement that is cost effective platform whilst at the same time not losing strategic autonomy.

 

[johnj]

F-35 is not being offered to India at the moment. So I do not know where you got the idea that GOI rejected it.

The only useful weapon India can buy from Russia right now is nuclear sub.

read once more - '' f35 don't meet iaf or goi requirement''. India never asked for it and usa not interested in selling it to india.
In the case of sub, you are right.

 

[asianobserve]

US Special Forces carried out raid on suspected Al Qaeda leader of Syria...

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

The modernized F-21 is better than all modernized Russian fighters and equally competitive with very expensive Rafale. India can induct at least twice the number of F-21s for every Rafale. That's a lot of advantage.




You're funny. Rafale has lost 100% to F-35 in international sales and is only purchased by those who are not allowed to buy the F-35.

Lol. F21 is nothing but a dead horse, just F16 with minor changes and name changed for effects. No use. Better get rafale and be done with it.

Plus buying critical assets from US means we will be forever in the threat of maintainance, MLU etc being denied by employing sanctions, the way US was mulling to do to us and has done to turkey.

 

[asianobserve]

US Navy to receive additional S-400-killer missiles

Defense giant Northrop Grumman Corp. announced a new low-rate initial production contract for its AGM-88G Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile Extended Range (AARGM-ER).

https://defence-blog.com/us-navy-to-receive-additional-s-400-killer-missiles/

 

[blackjack]

AARGM-ER killer. https://www.janes.com/article/89867...ty-commander-dubs-s-350-cruise-missile-killer

Col Muravkin claimed that the Pantsir-S short-range air defence (SHORAD) system had been used to "deal effectively with" Grad rockets fired by the BM-21 multiple rocket launcher system, small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and quadcopters over the last year and a half and had countered air-to-surface missiles and aircraft for a "long time".

The colonel added that the recently unveiled Pantsir-SM will counter future threats such as hypersonic missiles and UAV swarms, stressing that in addition to a new radar, greater processing power, and missiles with greater speed, range, and payload, the Pantsir-SM will use artificial intelligence.

Col Muravkin also stated that because of the proliferation of precision-guided munitions (PGMs), the focus is shifting from area to point air defence with Pantsir systems, while S-400 SAM systems will deal with aircraft before they launch PGMs.

we got killers everywhere.