RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

[Bheeshma]

Will never happen. The new carriers will likely go for PAK-FA mod than F-35.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Bheesham & Sanjeev please Google Juan Carlos which is a STOVL and they're gunning for Harriers as fixed wing component on it. It has a short take off ski jump that can only work with F 35 or Harriers.

Now since it's a STOVL the only worth while option that is left is F35 B STOVL and I think Juan Carlos's fixed wing compliment will be 10/12 fighters which is a pretty decent one especially if you get Fifth Gen fighters.

Now knowing we'll get 4 Lhd's then that means IN will get 40/48 F 35's ! Pretty decent combo if you want to rule the roost in the IOR when you know China will have 4/5 A/C in or above the Liaoning category meaning atleast 30 fighter's each so to counter those numbers go for F 35!!

By the way the I wish they'd replace the Zhuk ME radar on Mig 29 k and maybe replace it with something more powerful like the BARS on our MKI's..... Mig 29 is STOBAR and FGFA is too huge for a LHD and as of now not compatible with A/C ops so not gonna happen for Lhd's such as Juan Carlos 1 !!

Again as I said wr are discussing options so all the pros and cons should be discussed and all options explored such as making our LHD'S mini A/C carriers so that they become autonomous and can defend as well as strike hard over air while carrying out their amphibious assaults. Secondly these 4 mini A/C carriers mean we don't have to build more than 3 A/C carriers.

 

[SilentKiller]

Arnabmit & Jackprince LM has already given a presentation to IN - ON REQUEST!

F 35 B is the only 5th Gen STOVL capable aircraft that can counter PLAAN in IOR and hence the interest.

As I had earlier mentioned if Juan Carlos is selected than F 35 B's are automatic choice for fixed wing ! Second thing I mentioned.... we are DISCUSSING SO EXPLORING ALL OPTIONS ARE ALLOWED!

You cannot counter J 15's with Mig 29's (STOBAR) and more importantly what options do you have for a capable STOVL except for Harriers (Dead) and F 35B's?

What is J-15?? Its a heavier fighter and inferior copy to Su33, even russians are replacing Su33's with Mig29k.
F35 is expensive option right now and it has its own issue, particularly F35B.
I guess this will answer all your doubts.

 

[SilentKiller]

We should not mix roles of an aircraft carrier and LHD.

 

[Bheeshma]

IN will never order the spanish LHD. It will be indigenous design or Mistral. IN has no plans for any STVOL aircrafts. Period. This is a pointless discussion and waste of time. IN is happy with Mig-29K and it will be complemented by N-LCA till PAK-FA and AMCA mature in 15-20 years. F-35 will never fly in IAF or IN's colors. People just need to accept it.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Like it or not Spain's Navantia is a contender since L&T has tied up with it for the LHD bid so be prepared for Juan Carlos

Here is a link for the Bid : Indian Navy Multi-Role Support Vessel programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List includes L&T + Navantia - Juan Carlos 1 (STOVL Capable)
List includes Pipavav + DCNS - Mistral (pure Hele ops) but after the Scorpene I think they have shot themselves in the foot (The 'miscellaneous' blunder in India's Rafale deal - Rediff.com India News)
List includes ABG + Alion USA - never heard and cant find anything on them so need help.....only RN's Albion class comes close

For the bids to build the ships in India, Larsen & Toubro has tied up with Spain's Navantia, while Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering has teamed with France's DCNS, and ABG Shipyard with US company Alion.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Like it or not Spain's Navantia is a contender since L&T has tied up with it for the LHD bid so be prepared for Juan Carlos

Here is a link for the Bid : Indian Navy Multi-Role Support Vessel programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List includes L&T + Navantia - Juan Carlos 1 (STOVL Capable)
List includes Pipavav + DCNS - Mistral (pure Hele ops) but after the Scorpene I think they have shot themselves in the foot (The 'miscellaneous' blunder in India's Rafale deal - Rediff.com India News)
List includes ABG + Alion USA - never heard and cant find anything on them so need help.....only RN's Albion class comes close.

Indian Navy is looking for a Amphibious Vessel. Not an Aircraft Carrier.
Why should we get Juan Carlos with Carrier capability when we already have an Indigenous Aircraft carrier programme?
We dont need anymore Aerial power projection,They are expensive to maintain. Sure we can still get Carlos but IN will most probably modify the structure to remove the Ski-Jump.
We have a longterm requirement of 6 Aircraft carriers. Any more will be unfeasible.
I still believe that chances are in favor of Mistral more.
As far as F35 is considered , they will never see Indian Service. We dont need that kind of capability.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Indian Navy is looking for a Amphibious Vessel. Not an Aircraft Carrier.
Why should we get Juan Carlos with Carrier capability when we already have an Indigenous Aircraft carrier programme?
We dont need anymore Aerial power projection,They are expensive to maintain. Sure we can still get Carlos but IN will most probably modify the structure to remove the Ski-Jump.
We have a longterm requirement of 6 Aircraft carriers. Any more will be unfeasible.
I still believe that chances are in favor of Mistral more.
As far as F35 is considered , they will never see Indian Service. We dont need that kind of capability.

Agreed with most of your points Dhairya but LHD/LPD with Stovl like the Juan Carlos become that much more attractive due to the fixed wing fighters that can provide a fail safe CAP and also strike....helos cannot do that effectively.

As a hypothetical scenario if IN has to insert MARCOS/infantry and supporting light armor at Karachi a Juan Carlos type can handle its own defenses via F 35's while the Mig 29 k's can perform strike and bombings. As mentioned Juan Carlos's biggest advantage is that it can carry independent ops like these without the need of AC carriers hanging about with Mig 29 k's running to and fro !!

As for Mistral you must have noticed the row going on with Russia and besides I had also put a link with my previous post regarding the ongoing Scorpene delays. I personally feel DCNS is out of the race.
Also every bit of capability is welcome coz policing the IOR is a huge huge task !

For the rest its just a discussion of possibilities not a propaganda exercise or a "end all-be all" option put in by me so relax!!

 

[Immanuel]

True, IN loves it Harriers, it did request the F-35B RFI and is very keen on it, moreover, since these ships will only realistically entire service post 2020, the F-35B is ideal, 12 F-35Bs per ship i.e 48 F-35B is a great addition to IN's arsenal. The F-35 with its avionics will allow IN to have great views of the battlefield. IN is also interested in the F-35C for the INS Vishal which will also come post 2025 and the only 5th gen carrier borne aircraft in game at that time is the F-35C. As for PAKFA Naval, let's first wait for India specific AF version to take of, with engine fires and other failures we are still far from getting a AF version on time. The Naval version of PAKFA is still not even on the drawing board.

I say 4 Juan Carlos is the way to go.

 

[Immanuel]

As for ABG tying up with Alion is also interesting since they helped in the design and archietcture of the Dokdo class, perhaps an India specific design is on the offing, could be ineresting since they could offer something very customized.

Dokdo Class Amphibious Assault Ship | Military-Today.com

ALION - International Naval Programs

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

True, IN loves it Harriers, it did request the F-35B RFI and is very keen on it, moreover, since these ships will only realistically entire service post 2020, the F-35B is ideal, 12 F-35Bs per ship i.e 48 F-35B is a great addition to IN's arsenal. The F-35 with its avionics will allow IN to have great views of the battlefield. IN is also interested in the F-35C for the INS Vishal which will also come post 2025 and the only 5th gen carrier borne aircraft in game at that time is the F-35C. As for PAKFA Naval, let's first wait for India specific AF version to take of, with engine fires and other failures we are still far from getting a AF version on time. The Naval version of PAKFA is still not even on the drawing board.

I say 4 Juan Carlos is the way to go.

IN is not interested in F35s for INS Vishal. Why are they funding AMCA then ?

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Agreed with most of your points Dhairya but LHD/LPD with Stovl like the Juan Carlos become that much more attractive due to the fixed wing fighters that can provide a fail safe CAP and also strike....helos cannot do that effectively.

As a hypothetical scenario if IN has to insert MARCOS/infantry and supporting light armor at Karachi a Juan Carlos type can handle its own defenses via F 35's while the Mig 29 k's can perform strike and bombings. As mentioned Juan Carlos's biggest advantage is that it can carry independent ops like these without the need of AC carriers hanging about with Mig 29 k's running to and fro !!

As for Mistral you must have noticed the row going on with Russia and besides I had also put a link with my previous post regarding the ongoing Scorpene delays. I personally feel DCNS is out of the race.
Also every bit of capability is welcome coz policing the IOR is a huge huge task !

For the rest its just a discussion of possibilities not a propaganda exercise or a "end all-be all" option put in by me so relax!!

I think you mixed up roles between MiG29K and F35. F35, If considered, is much better than MiGs when Strike Missions are considered (Joint Strike Fighter)

 

[Immanuel]

IN is not interested in F35s for INS Vishal. Why are they funding AMCA then ?

Funding a project has little to do with anything, AMCA is still on the drawing board, finalization of configuration is expected in 2018 and then the eventual prototyping, by the time it realistically enters flight testing it will be well beyond 2020-2021, by the time it recieves FOC, we are looking at 2030. Let me explain why, firstly the design is far from frozen, keeping mind with changing dimensions and Chinese deploying what they think is a '5th gen bird', IAF/IN will want atleast a bird with 5.5 gen+ tech and they will alter requirements till they get what they want.

AMCA as a concept is still fluid and far from being concrete. Naval AMCA will probably enter service 2030 on the next INS Vishal 2 carrier. No Way around this, when it comes into active service it will be cutting edge no doubt.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I think you mixed up roles between MiG29K and F35. F35, If considered, is much better than MiGs when Strike Missions are considered (Joint Strike Fighter)

Well it might be called the JSF but with limited internal pylons and 6 external ones (if you wish to compromise its stealth advantage) I d rather have them escorting Mig 29 ks who would do the dumping ordnance job with F 35 flying top cover..... Since I had given Karachi as a scenario I suppose F 35's would be better suited at swatting the JF 17's / F 16's while 29 K's go about pounding the ground targets!! What say to that??

 

[Punya Pratap]

As for ABG tying up with Alion is also interesting since they helped in the design and archietcture of the Dokdo class, perhaps an India specific design is on the offing, could be ineresting since they could offer something very customized.

Dokdo Class Amphibious Assault Ship | Military-Today.com

ALION - International Naval Programs

Thanks Immanuel... was trying to figure out what had Alion dished out so far!! Anyways RAN is also getting Juan Carlos as Canberra Class all with the Ski Jump and STOVL capacity so I suppose that''s a good recommendation !!

 

[Kranthi]

Thanks Immanuel... was trying to figure out what had Alion dished out so far!! Anyways RAN is also getting Juan Carlos as Canberra Class all with the Ski Jump and STOVL capacity so I suppose that''s a good recommendation !!

Australia does not have aircraft carriers so the Juan Carlos could help them in that front as well. Also the australian air force will operate F-35 in good numbers, providing a platform commonality.so this is a logical choice for them. And above all australia is a dear ally of the US so they will have relatively far less clauses attached with the fighters regarding their wartime usage and supply of spares.

IN is less likely to go for F-35 unless the IAF is also planning so, and the US providing us tech to manufacture critical spares. Enough of the spare troubles IN had with the harriers.. Though the F-35 spare supply line will not face a fate as that of the harriers, the US is less likely to cooperate during wartime, unless we are fighting china, or some other nation of the US's interest..

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Well it might be called the JSF but with limited internal pylons and 6 external ones (if you wish to compromise its stealth advantage) I d rather have them escorting Mig 29 ks who would do the dumping ordnance job with F 35 flying top cover..... Since I had given Karachi as a scenario I suppose F 35's would be better suited at swatting the JF 17's / F 16's while 29 K's go about pounding the ground targets!! What say to that??

Both Tejas and MiG29K have limited bombing capability. The radar for ground attack was added to MiG29 as a update only. F35 is much more capable of ground attack jobs. Just because Mig has more pylons, doesnt mean it can be used for bombing runs. Hardware, software also matter.
And actually there is no purpose of discussing a plane which is not being considered by Govt.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Funding a project has little to do with anything, AMCA is still on the drawing board, finalization of configuration is expected in 2018 and then the eventual prototyping, by the time it realistically enters flight testing it will be well beyond 2020-2021, by the time it recieves FOC, we are looking at 2030. Let me explain why, firstly the design is far from frozen, keeping mind with changing dimensions and Chinese deploying what they think is a '5th gen bird', IAF/IN will want atleast a bird with 5.5 gen+ tech and they will alter requirements till they get what they want.

AMCA as a concept is still fluid and far from being concrete. Naval AMCA will probably enter service 2030 on the next INS Vishal 2 carrier. No Way around this, when it comes into active service it will be cutting edge no doubt.

I was just making a point. Navy is not interested to procure F35. We already have chosen MiG29 and Tejas for a job. procuring F35 will be both expensive and will remove commonality. Navy is showing a tiny bit of interest in Rafale, but nothing can be told so soon.

 

[arnabmit]

Arnabmit & Jackprince LM has already given a presentation to IN - ON REQUEST!

F 35 B is the only 5th Gen STOVL capable aircraft that can counter PLAAN in IOR and hence the interest.

As I had earlier mentioned if Juan Carlos is selected than F 35 B's are automatic choice for fixed wing ! Second thing I mentioned.... we are DISCUSSING SO EXPLORING ALL OPTIONS ARE ALLOWED!

You cannot counter J 15's with Mig 29's (STOBAR) and more importantly what options do you have for a capable STOVL except for Harriers (Dead) and F 35B's?

Under UPA, American Arms lobbyist Ajay Shukla had clout enough to be a part of the group that almost made GoI give away Siachen to Pak. You think consideration of F-35 was any big deal?

India is not interested in STVOL for Navy. NLCA, Mig-29k upgraded to Mig-35 standard and NAMCA is the future of IN. A the most, Rafale-M as a stop-gap for NMRCA till the time NAMCA is ready.

Why would IN want a fighter which is not VLO, doesn't supercruise, has max speed just above Mach 1, puny weapon's bay, not maneuverable, good for only BVR and small PGM strikes?

 

[arnabmit]

Dear Bheesham & Sanjeev please Google Juan Carlos which is a STOVL and they're gunning for Harriers as fixed wing component on it. It has a short take off ski jump that can only work with F 35 or Harriers.

Now since it's a STOVL the only worth while option that is left is F35 B STOVL and I think Juan Carlos's fixed wing compliment will be 10/12 fighters which is a pretty decent one especially if you get Fifth Gen fighters.

Now knowing we'll get 4 Lhd's then that means IN will get 40/48 F 35's ! Pretty decent combo if you want to rule the roost in the IOR when you know China will have 4/5 A/C in or above the Liaoning category meaning atleast 30 fighter's each so to counter those numbers go for F 35!!

By the way the I wish they'd replace the Zhuk ME radar on Mig 29 k and maybe replace it with something more powerful like the BARS on our MKI's..... Mig 29 is STOBAR and FGFA is too huge for a LHD and as of now not compatible with A/C ops so not gonna happen for Lhd's such as Juan Carlos 1 !!

Again as I said wr are discussing options so all the pros and cons should be discussed and all options explored such as making our LHD'S mini A/C carriers so that they become autonomous and can defend as well as strike hard over air while carrying out their amphibious assaults. Secondly these 4 mini A/C carriers mean we don't have to build more than 3 A/C carriers.

LHDs will be LHDs only. They will carry only Attack, Recce, ASW & SAR helicopters. IN's envisaged future is a 3 career fleet: Vikki, IAC1 & IAC2 for the next 20-30yrs. IN is not interested in STVOL capability any more. STVOL has severe drawbacks.

As for PRC, you forget that we already have a ultra-mega-super-duper Aircraft Carrier ready for them called INS Baaz which can carry P8I, AWACS & MKIs, and in future FGFA in numbers greater than 3 Nimitz-class carriers.