RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

[Punya Pratap]

An article that is couple of years old but it does say something..... IN is indeed looking at NLCA & Mig 29 K's to do the job for Vikramaditya and IAC 1 but the fact is IN had sent an RFI requesting LM for a presentation with details about F 35.

Lockheed to offer fifth generation F-35 fighters to Navy


PTI | Jun 28, 2010, 09.20PM IST
NEW DELHI: US defence major Lockheed Martin said on Monday that it will offer its latest fifth generation F-35 fighters to meet Indian Navy's requirements for carrier-based combat aircraft.

"We have received the Request for Information (RFI) from the Navy seeking information about the F-35 aircraft, which are capable of taking off from aircraft carriers. We are going to offer our aircraft to them," Lockheed Martin vice president Orville Prins said.

He said presentations had been given to the Indian Navy about both the 'B'and 'C' versions of the aircraft in the recent past.

In defense sector you just dont go to a shop and ask the shop keeper to show all his wares without having a specific need / interest. IN is interested in F35 for IAC 2 on wards (my wish list- CATOBAR/Nuclear Powered/ minimum 80000 tonne / atleast 15 F 35's and 25/30 Mig 29k's)

IN does nt care about commonality with IAF alone and deck based FGFA will take atleast 20 years to come but I think its too big for Carrier ops anyways!! If indeed FGFA is modified than it will mean that 1 FGFA = 3 F 35/Mig 29 hangar space but I dont think there will be a Naval FGFA!

F 35 will have a global supply chain of spares so that should take care of our worries. IAF & IN will have separate requirements coz operating from a A/C carrier is a different ball game all together!

As for commonality Mig 29 k is an exception in IN's inventory which has commonality with IAF fleet .... IAF had No Harriers/ No Sea Hawks ! NAval & Air Force fighter requirements and specs are different!

IAC 2 onwards will be our long distance strike weapons and Mig 29 K's and NLCA cannot face a hostile situation in South China Sea if we go to war with China .... we need an "armed to the teeth" IAC 2 with a 5th Gen fighter like F 35 to face any land based / carrier based fighters China throws at us there.

If not South China Sea - IAC 2 should be able blockade the Gulf of Malacca to cripple Chinas oil supplies' and that too will need a 5th Gen fighter. Also we need to counter the "String of Pearls" China is developing around us because it has the money muscle to influence Sri Lanka / Myanmar / Pakistan - Sure we are developing Chabahar port in Iran but dont count on it more than a logistical base for India/Afghanistan trade and military supplies. A Bigger and Better armed Aircraft Carrier with 5th Gn fighters is needed to do all this! Plaan is getting assertive in IOR since they have the money & more numbers in every dept. we need to go for the best and class leading weapons like F 35 to counter them.

We do have enough money for IN to go for F 35 B/C for the IAC 2 on wards Aircraft Carriers besides IAC 2 onwards will be our real offensive Carriers - Vikramaditya and Vikrant will be more of defensive role taking care of our two coasts.

As for the other point being about ordnance delivery you have to remember your most capable fighters will always fly top cover while the others can roll in and take care of ground assault. During Kargil Mig 29's were flying top cover with 2000/27 etc doing the bombing. By the way SEAD will also need F 35s more than NLCA or Mig 29K's!

Dont forget IN is also required to plan for its future air arm composition just like IAF is with FGFA/AMCA .... Naval AMCA is again atleast 25/30 years off so F 35's can come in the next 5/10 years to fill the gap! Besides IN deserves to be rewarded with F 35's simply coz they are the only ones who are supporting domestic arms development!

I will always support IN getting more teeth since the IOR is going to get really really HOT with PLAAN also trying to secure China's supply routes..... besides a stronger and better equipped IN will be out trump card to ensure China does nt get too adventurous with us over Air and Land coz China's weak point is the Supply Routes through IOR and Malacca straits.

War is more often like chess - you counter the others move by hitting where it hurts the most and hitting at the enemies weak spots...if they hurt us over land and air we hurt them where they are weak - The IOR ..... and we need to stay the dominant power in IOR and hold China over land and Air with defensive tactics!! Which is indeed our policy with China as of now...holding them!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

LHDs will be LHDs only. They will carry only Attack, Recce, ASW & SAR helicopters. IN's envisaged future is a 3 career fleet: Vikki, IAC1 & IAC2 for the next 20-30yrs. IN is not interested in STVOL capability any more. STVOL has severe drawbacks.

As for PRC, you forget that we already have a ultra-mega-super-duper Aircraft Carrier ready for them called INS Baaz which can carry P8I, AWACS & MKIs, and in future FGFA in numbers greater than 3 Nimitz-class carriers.

Arnabmit - INS Baaz is not a Aircraft Carrier but Andoman & Nicobar ANC Base located near Campbell Islands right on the Straits of Mallaca!!

STOVL will always be there as long as Aircraft carriers will be!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Under UPA, American Arms lobbyist Ajay Shukla had clout enough to be a part of the group that almost made GoI give away Siachen to Pak. You think consideration of F-35 was any big deal?

India is not interested in STVOL for Navy. NLCA, Mig-29k upgraded to Mig-35 standard and NAMCA is the future of IN. A the most, Rafale-M as a stop-gap for NMRCA till the time NAMCA is ready.

Why would IN want a fighter which is not VLO, doesn't supercruise, has max speed just above Mach 1, puny weapon's bay, not maneuverable, good for only BVR and small PGM strikes?

When did GoI give away Siachen..... Army opposed the proposed "Mountain of Peace" senile idea of Manmohan Singh the most worthless PM we ever had. Ajai Shukla never proposed this idea and if you have link please let me see it! All Ajai Shukla has said about Siachen can be seen here :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/05/pak-formally-proposed-siachen-pullback.html

Siachen demilitarisation: Could PM gift away to Pakistan what Army has won? : Cover Story - India Today

Gen VK Singh went ballistic over the Mountain of Peace idea ....another reason why he was never the Apple of the Eyes of MoD or PMO that cooked up the stories about the troop movement to Delhi initiated supposedly by VK Singh!!

I have already given the link that says Indian Navy sent a Request for Information to Lockheed Martin for F35 !! go check it again and let me know!!
As I have already defined the roles of F 35 I suggest you go through the previous post I have written....F 35 shall fly top cover while Mig 29ks do the bombing!!

I dont know where you get your facts from ... the specs you are giving for F 35 are 5 years old!!

 

[DivineHeretic]

LHDs will be LHDs only. They will carry only Attack, Recce, ASW & SAR helicopters. IN's envisaged future is a 3 career fleet: Vikki, IAC1 & IAC2 for the next 20-30yrs. IN is not interested in STVOL capability any more. STVOL has severe drawbacks.

As for PRC, you forget that we already have a ultra-mega-super-duper Aircraft Carrier ready for them called INS Baaz which can carry P8I, AWACS & MKIs, and in future FGFA in numbers greater than 3 Nimitz-class carriers.

The 3 carrier fleet plan is no longer valid, I'm afraid. This plan, like many others, was drafted in the late 80s (perhaps even earlier). The only envisaged roles for these carriers then were fleet air defense and limited power projection in the Indian Ocean. That plan never took into account threats from hostile carrier forces in the IOR, or for that matter extended Indian interests in SCS and beyond. Over and above that, the 3 carrier plan was drafted at a time when the PLAN was opposed to carriers.

All that's changed now. In addition to the current requirements, The carrier force of the future will also be expected to provide strategic strike capability in the IOR, air cover to amphibious forces operating outside the air cover of the IAF and even counter-carrier operations in the IOR and beyond. This will require at-the-ready forces 24x7, 365 days a year on both sides of the Indian peninsula, a requirement that cannot be met by a three carrier fleet.

We need only wait till the PLAN carrier plans become more transparent. There will be a scramble for more carriers over and above the three, as soon as the scale of PLAN carrier force becomes evident. Unfortunately, we will again be reacting, instead of taking a proactive stance.

 

[bengalraider]

As far as controlling the malaccas goes I second arnambit about INS BAAZ, but we really need to beef up the andamans with S-400 class systems and long range Glcm systems while increasing the aircraft deployed manifold to ensure that the straits are impenetrable without crippling losses to the PLAN.
The LHD is primarily going to be utilised for disaster relief operations and amphibious landings,for both of these the Juan Carlos with its ability to carry more troops and tanks than the dokdo while also being able to provide aircraft for CAS to these troops is the clear leader.
My money on the Juan Carlos

 

[jackprince]

I think you mixed up roles between MiG29K and F35. F35, If considered, is much better than MiGs when Strike Missions are considered (Joint Strike Fighter)

F35B hasn't yet been deployed, and you know it is much better in strike mission? Why? Because of stealth alone? What are the specification that has been 'proven' to be included in JSF that makes it so much better a platform to justify shelling out almost 3 times the price of other potential strike fighters?

Please clarify in detail or else keep your peace. Just calling a platform JSF doesn't make it a God's gift of fighter plane.

 

[Punya Pratap]

As the RFP has also gone to Navantia I assume (and pray) we get Juan Carlos which is "over qualified" LHD/LPD ! IOR will need a strong IN for force projection !

As for INS Baaz its best to supplementary assets in case INS Baaz is bombed beyond meaningful contribution to blockading Mallaca Straits.... hence you have the need for better equipped and armed IAC 2.

As for the LHD/LPD roles....its a mute point with IN that you will need them to counter the Strings of Pearls. You will have to have very very capable LHD/LPD to neutralise String of Pearls if PLAAN uses them against us. If you think IN is just looking for humanitarian angle than you are mistaken !

Do a bit of analysis here.... We can easily sort out Pakistan without the need for buying LHD/LPD which in themselves are harbingers of aggressive tactics of any country. What do you think IN is going to do with the LHD/LPD..... invade Bangladesh or Pakistan??? The answer is beyond these two countries whose combined Navy cant take on the present capabilities of IN..... These LHD/LPD are specific to countering China's String of Pearls!! You will only realise this if you read about how many troops/armoured/aerial assets the contenders like Mistral/Juan Carlos/ Dokdo carry to realise why we need them!

IN will use LHD/LPD for offensive tactics so we need the best in the business.... again my vote for Juan Carlos!! (Remember we are allowed to a right to vote and right to have an opinion!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Even Dokdo has an option for operating VSTOL A/C via a Ski Jump as per below details:

The Dokdo Class of LPH are named after islands deemed important or symbolic to the ROK Navy. Three ships were planned at first, but the third ship was cancelled during the period of Lee Myung-bak government.[3]

ROKS Dokdo (LPH-6111) is named after the Liancourt Rocks, which are called "Dokdo" in Korean but "Takeshima" in Japanese. Although the South Korean Coast Guard took control of the isles in 1954, Japan still disputes the sovereignty of the rocks.

The second unit, the ROKS Marado, is named after Marado Island, commonly thought of as being both the ending and beginning point of Korea. Today a monument stands there recognizing it as the southernmost point of the country. This ship was cancelled once, but the budget was restored in 2012.[7] A ski ramp for operations of V/STOL jet fighters is being considered for Marado.[8]

I assume IN will go for a VSTOL capable LHD/LPD

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

F35B hasn't yet been deployed, and you know it is much better in strike mission? Why? Because of stealth alone? What are the specification that has been 'proven' to be included in JSF that makes it so much better a platform to justify shelling out almost 3 times the price of other potential strike fighters?

Please clarify in detail or else keep your peace. Just calling a platform JSF doesn't make it a God's gift of fighter plane.

I neither like F35 nor love it. F35 will replace the the much older F111 (Strike aircraft) in USAF and RAAF.
Super Hornet , one of the best Strike aircraft at present , is considered much inferior to F35.

This is what Australians give as a reason to buy F35 even after its ridiculous rising costs.

"In the strike fighter role the F-35 is a far more capable aircraft than the Super Hornet and would give greater capability against a more capable adversary,
including the ability to penetrate sophisticated air defences,"

Because of its stealth capability, F35 is an ideal Aircraft for deep behind the enemy lines strike missions.
Moreover, with highly advanced software on F35, Its a treat for pilot for switching between roles from Air to air to Air to ground, An issue that plagued F/A-18 and Harriers.

The combination of the stealth features, the F-35's active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology,
and the aircraft's ability to carry weapons internally means that F-35 pilots can engage ground targets at long ranges without detection,
using precision weapons to complete air-to-ground missions.
In this configuration, the F-35 will enter the battlespace first, paving the way for others.

And any guy who has read about MiG29 even on Wiki, can easily figure out its inferior nature when Air-to-Ground configuration is considered.
F35 was designed for that purpose.
MiG29K is a very capable fighter, but it was never built for Air-to-Ground role, it was built mainly for Air-to-Air combat. The radar on MiG29 had to be upgraded to include some capability of strike missions.

In Air-to-Air combat, MiG29 can be considered more than equivalent (if we remove the factor of stealth) when compared with F35, but sadly F35 is a generation ahead of MiG29 when Air-to-Ground mission are considered.

Just for you Information, F35 doesnt always mean F35B. F35C is also capable of operating from STOVL carriers, this is why Royal Navy also considered it as a candidate for operating on Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft carriers.

 

[Immanuel]

The IN has always had its eyes on the F-35B/C, they will most likely find their way into the inventory. The 3 carrier plan is old, by 2030 India will have 4 and a 5th one coming soon, Vishal Class will have used up a lot of resources for us to stop after building 1, with a very strong defensive/guardian role in IOR + offensive needs against China, we are looking at an eventual fleet of 7-8 and by 2040 or more.

Smartest thing to do is to order another 2 INS Vikrant Classes bringing the total to 3 (for Defensive roles around IOR and the motherland) and atleast 3 Vishal Class nuclear ships for offensive roles against China. The lone INS Vikra can be used for offensive roles against Pak (1 is more than enough for them). I find it silly that we spend too much time/money designing a new gen light carrier and do not exploit this to have some numbers.

 

[arnabmit]

Arnabmit - INS Baaz is not a Aircraft Carrier but Andoman & Nicobar ANC Base located near Campbell Islands right on the Straits of Mallaca!!

STOVL will always be there as long as Aircraft carriers will be!!

Who told you INS Baaz is not an Aircraft Carrier???

As far as IN is concerned, STVOL is dead.

 

[Bheeshma]

F-35 will never fly in IN or IAF colors. People just need to accept it. That piece of shit is can only carry 2 harpoons at best internally and is no way a superior striker to either Mig-29k or rafale or F-18E/f

 

[arnabmit]

When did GoI give away Siachen..... Army opposed the proposed "Mountain of Peace" senile idea of Manmohan Singh the most worthless PM we ever had. Ajai Shukla never proposed this idea and if you have link please let me see it! All Ajai Shukla has said about Siachen can be seen here :

Broadsword: Pak formally proposed Siachen pullback, says Antony

Siachen demilitarisation: Could PM gift away to Pakistan what Army has won? : Cover Story - India Today

Gen VK Singh went ballistic over the Mountain of Peace idea ....another reason why he was never the Apple of the Eyes of MoD or PMO that cooked up the stories about the troop movement to Delhi initiated supposedly by VK Singh!!

I have already given the link that says Indian Navy sent a Request for Information to Lockheed Martin for F35 !! go check it again and let me know!!
As I have already defined the roles of F 35 I suggest you go through the previous post I have written....F 35 shall fly top cover while Mig 29ks do the bombing!!

I dont know where you get your facts from ... the specs you are giving for F 35 are 5 years old!!

Hmmm you depend too much on UPA narratives. Google some more about Ajay Shukla. Here is a hint: The simmering Siachen and Indo-Pak ties - IBNLive

The air superiority role you defined for F-35 is of the "A" type. STVOL version is the "B" type, which is capable of taking off with only very light armaments. Then again, the Air Superiority role of F-35A is limited to only BVR combat, with pathetic WVR & maneuverability.

Mig-29K beats F-35 variants in every flight performance parameters. F-35 is superior in avionics, data fusion and RCS (not VLO though) only.

 

[arnabmit]

As far as controlling the malaccas goes I second arnambit about INS BAAZ, but we really need to beef up the andamans with S-400 class systems and long range Glcm systems while increasing the aircraft deployed manifold to ensure that the straits are impenetrable without crippling losses to the PLAN.
The LHD is primarily going to be utilised for disaster relief operations and amphibious landings,for both of these the Juan Carlos with its ability to carry more troops and tanks than the dokdo while also being able to provide aircraft for CAS to these troops is the clear leader.
My money on the Juan Carlos

I don't have anything against the Juan Carlos class, it is a good ship, and would be a great addition to IN (minus the ski jump).

Anyway, the RFP specifies LPD, and not LHD.

Navantia might present Galicia class LPD instead of the Juan Carlos class LHD.

[PDF]http://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfiles/files/lineas_act/Fichas_antiguas%20ingl%C3%A9s/LPD.pdf[/PDF]

 

[Punya Pratap]

Who told you INS Baaz is not an Aircraft Carrier???

As far as IN is concerned, STVOL is dead.

If you insist then INS Baaz is the worlds biggest Aircraft Carrier... in fact 4 times the size of Nimitz class!

Let the future decide regarding STOVL... personally as long as there are Aircraft Carriers STOVL will be alive and kicking including for IN!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Hmmm you depend too much on UPA narratives. Google some more about Ajay Shukla. Here is a hint: The simmering Siachen and Indo-Pak ties - IBNLive

Good Article and I might add something the new government ought to look into to ensure that idiots like ACM Tyagi who incidentally has covered himself with "glory" in chopper scam and his ilk be brought to answer.... I think an investigation should be taken up to ensure no political leadership acts in an arbitrary manner again on such sensitive issues without taking the Parliament in confidence!

The air superiority role you defined for F-35 is of the "A" type. STVOL version is the "B" type, which is capable of taking off with only very light armaments. Then again, the Air Superiority role of F-35A is limited to only BVR combat, with pathetic WVR & maneuverability.

Mig-29K beats F-35 variants in every flight performance parameters. F-35 is superior in avionics, data fusion and RCS (not VLO though) only.

Well since you say I agree to this also the same way I agreed to INS Baaz being a A/C

 

[arnabmit]

It is. Not world's biggest, but B.I.G.

Do you know what US' biggest aircraft careers are? Diego Garcia and Guam.

IN is getting another HUGE aircraft career, in MiniCoy.

BTW, you know that "B" is for Marines, and not for Navy, right? "C" is for Navy.

If you insist then INS Baaz is the worlds biggest Aircraft Carrier... in fact 4 times the size of Nimitz class!

Let the future decide regarding STOVL... personally as long as there are Aircraft Carriers STOVL will be alive and kicking including for IN!

 

[Immanuel]

Galicia falls short in terms of meeting minimum RFP requirements.

 

[arnabmit]

On which parameter?

Galicia falls short in terms of meeting minimum RFP requirements.

 

[Immanuel]

The Navy wants a ship of atleast 200m length, the Galicia is 40m shorter.