Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[Punya Pratap]

The only concern I have regarding the 75 (i) is the delivery schedules especially when all six subs will be built in India.... we all know the delays with Scorpenes and MDL's struggles to come to grip with something as complex a platform as a sub.... submersibles are always complex and take time and experience to master! Once you have mastered it you should continue working on it.... I wont mind if MDL along with the Naval Design Bureau comes up with a new design and builds it with experience gained from Scorpene!! 3 or 4 Indian designs tailor made for our IN after learning how to make Subs from the French is a good idea!!

I think MDL should be asked to build more subs (at least 3-4) to ensure that the whopping amount of money spent on the Scorpene project (especially the TOT) does nt get wasted!! These extra subs shall shore up our underwater arm while the Project 75 (i) materialises !! As it is their hull assembly unit is lying idle as all the six Scorpenes' are in outfitting stages!

To be frank Project 75 + Project 75 (i) - (6+6) are just going to take care of the attrition as all the Four Shishumars are at the fag end of a submarines life cycle and so are the early Sindhughosh's also as they are all 1980's era boats!! Arihant class shall give us a total of 4 SSBN's with two Chakra class to add more teeth!!

I would be delighted if we get the Soryu as it is a formidable platform - not only bigger than the rest but with greater operational reach and payload >>> 2 of the most important criteria for a large operational area like IOR!! I am sure Japanese will be most accommodating knowing that a strong IN will help check the PLAN and also that Japan and India are natural partners against an aggressive China!

 

[grampiguy]

Anyone has any info on Japanese reaction to Modi's offer of building Soryu subs in India?

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

GOVT SHORTLISTS LARSEN & TOUBRO, PIPAVAV FOR RS 6,000 CR SUBMARINE CONTRACT

The government has shortlisted Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company, in which the Anil Ambani group firm Reliance Infrastructure has recently acquired management control, for award of a R6,000-crore contract to build six conventional submarines under its Project 75i.

According to highly-placed sources, a high-level committee headed by vice-admiral Subhedar, which had inspected both public and private shipyards to shortlist candidates to issue the request for qualification (RFQ) for Project 75i, in its final presentation to the ministry of defence (MoD) last week, selected the two private sector shipyards — L&T's Katupalli yard and Pipavav unit.

The tender, the sources said, would be a 'buy and make (in India)' one, which implies tie-ups for technology with foreign collaborators with substantial manufacturing in India. Pipavav Shipyard has entered into some agreements recently with some global majors with a view to diversify into the submarine market and also has the capacity to build many boats simultaneously. At a Defence Acquisition Council meeting last year, the MoD was directed to set up a committee to identify shipyards in India capable of building submarines.

The committee, with representatives from the Navy and MoD, conducted a survey of shipyards along both the coasts, including Garden Reach Ship-Builders, Hindustan Shipyard, Goa Shipyard, L&T, Mazgaon Docks, ABG Shipyard and Pipavav Shipyard.

According to the government's decision all six submarines will be built in India on the lines of the predecessor P75 Scorpene production line at MDL, Mumbai. Bids were invited from Indian shipyards to build the six submarines using transferred technology from a foreign partner.

Project 75i is designed to purchase 6 next generation diesel submarines with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) technology for Indian Navy by 2022. While conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries, AIP systems will help the submarines to stay submerged for longer periods. Apart from AIP, the new submarines will have advanced detection range and combat management systems and better sensors for optimum performance. The weapon system would be a mix of torpedoes and missiles.

Among the potential foreign submarine contenders in the race for Project 75i are French DCNS `Scorpene', Russia's Rubin Amur 1650, the German HDW Type 214, Spain's Navantia S-80 which broke its partnership with DCNS a while ago has been offering the S-80 design with an ethanol based AIP supplied by Abengoa.

Navantia also has a tie-up with Lockheed Martin for combat management systems and on India, it is known to have been working closely with L&T albeit on surface ship projects. The Swedish Kockums Archer-class is also in the race. Interestingly, DCNS of France, already has a technology tie-up with Pipavav Defence. Sembcorp Marine (Singapore), part of Temasek of the Singapore government and a leading global marine engineering group, has a strategic and equity partnership with Pipavav Defence.

For Reliance Infrastructure, which will spend Rs 819 crore for an 18% stake in Pipavav Defence and is slated to acquire an additional stake from the latter's promoters to increase the shareholding to above 25%, winning Project 75i will be crucial step in getting into defence manufacturing, an integral part of Narendra Modi government's Make in India campaign.

As per sources, in addition to the leased Russian nuclear-propelled submarine (INS Chakra) and the indigenously built Arihant, India's navy currently has 13 aging diesel-electric submarines, only half of which are operational at any given time due to refits. Last year, a submarine sank after explosions and a fire while docked in Mumbai.

The delays in the `Scorpene' (project 75) at Mazgaon Dock Limited (Mumbai) which was intended to induct the vessels at the rate on one ship per year since 2012 has left the Submarine force well below requisite levels. further, previously planned induction of 05 midget submarines and also the fresh impetus on the strategic submarine program constitute a work-load that is far beyond the capacity of existing public sector shipyards.

The six new submarines in P-75 I project will outline various critical parameters including the weight and design of the submarine. The Project 75I submarines are expected to be bigger than the 1800-ton Scorpene class being built for P-75 project. The AIP systems will enable greater underwater endurance and land-attack missiles. Besides, they will also incorporate stealth, land-attack capability and other technological advancements.

While indigenous sources can provide most sub-systems, packing all this together in a hull form that achieves contemporary quietening standards will require foreign collaboration for the selected yards.

Anil Ambani wants to make Pipavav Defence the biggest defence manufacturer

 

[Punya Pratap]

Suggest you all to take this with a pinch of salt as this comes from IDRW but none the less I am surprised. Was hoping that more orders will go to the private ship yards and wishing that MDL will be contracted to build an Indian designed sub to retain the tech knowhow they have earned while building the Scorpene..... it does nt make sense to allot only one sub each to Pipavav or L&T as its not cost effective!

L&T, Pipavav will get orders for 1 submarines each under Project 75i
Published March 14, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)



The government of India recently shortlisted Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company which can compete with Public sector companies to build 6 AIP equipped Conventional Diesel Submarines under Project 75i for Indian Navy.

Reliance Infrastructure which belongs to Anil Ambani recently brought stake in Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering just before the government announced that Pipavav Shipyards have been shortlisted. According to sources close to idrw.org both Private shipyards for the first time will be awarded to built 1 submarines each and four submarines will be awarded to PSU shipyards owned by Ministry of Defence.

Recently high-level committee headed by vice-admiral Subhedar, which had inspected both public and private shipyards shortlisted candidates to issue the request for qualification (RFQ) for Project 75i. idrw.org already has confirmed in earlier report that Goa Shipyard which is based in Defence minister Manohar Parrikar Home state has already confirmed to idrw.org that they are opting out of Project 75i since their shipyard lacks infrastructures for building Submarines and Shipyards is focusing on construction of eight minesweepers for the Indian Navy which recently has been awarded to them.

Garden Reach Ship-Builders, Hindustan Shipyard, Mazgaon Docks are Public sector units which will bag orders to construct remaining 4 submarines and Mazgaon Docks might take the cake with orders to build 2 Submarines in their shipyards.

Under Project 75i, all six submarines will be built in India on the lines of the predecessor P75 Scorpene production line at MDL, next generation diesel submarines will come with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) technology. Potential candidates for Project 75i are French DCNS 'Scorpene', Russia's Rubin Amur 1650, the German HDW Type 214, Spain's Navantia S-80

 

[grampiguy]

Suggest you all to take this with a pinch of salt as this comes from IDRW but none the less I am surprised. Was hoping that more orders will go to the private ship yards and wishing that MDL will be contracted to build an Indian designed sub to retain the tech knowhow they have earned while building the Scorpene..... it does nt make sense to allot only one sub each to Pipavav or L&T as its not cost effective!

L&T, Pipavav will get orders for 1 submarines each under Project 75i
Published March 14, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)



The government of India recently shortlisted Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company which can compete with Public sector companies to build 6 AIP equipped Conventional Diesel Submarines under Project 75i for Indian Navy.

Reliance Infrastructure which belongs to Anil Ambani recently brought stake in Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering just before the government announced that Pipavav Shipyards have been shortlisted. According to sources close to idrw.org both Private shipyards for the first time will be awarded to built 1 submarines each and four submarines will be awarded to PSU shipyards owned by Ministry of Defence.

Recently high-level committee headed by vice-admiral Subhedar, which had inspected both public and private shipyards shortlisted candidates to issue the request for qualification (RFQ) for Project 75i. idrw.org already has confirmed in earlier report that Goa Shipyard which is based in Defence minister Manohar Parrikar Home state has already confirmed to idrw.org that they are opting out of Project 75i since their shipyard lacks infrastructures for building Submarines and Shipyards is focusing on construction of eight minesweepers for the Indian Navy which recently has been awarded to them.

Garden Reach Ship-Builders, Hindustan Shipyard, Mazgaon Docks are Public sector units which will bag orders to construct remaining 4 submarines and Mazgaon Docks might take the cake with orders to build 2 Submarines in their shipyards.

Under Project 75i, all six submarines will be built in India on the lines of the predecessor P75 Scorpene production line at MDL, next generation diesel submarines will come with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) technology. Potential candidates for Project 75i are French DCNS 'Scorpene', Russia's Rubin Amur 1650, the German HDW Type 214, Spain's Navantia S-80

I would take this news with a bucket load of salt. IDRW has to mature with their own reporting and start giving some evidence while dealing with critically important issues. The news is good for stock market manipulation but horrible for their credibility of reporting.

 

[Bheeshma]

I would take this news with a bucket load of salt. IDRW has to mature with their own reporting and start giving some evidence while dealing with critically important issues. The news is good for stock market manipulation but horrible for their credibility of reporting.

True..there is novpoint making 1 sub. I would rather L&T focus on the A class and the new SSN's.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[uoftotaku]

Interesting how similar she looks to a mini-Virginia class! Beautiful lines really. Maybe they can take some tech cues from that program for future upgrades, modified front end sonar done with a "chin" array, conformal water backed primary array to mirror that wonderful "smile" instead of the simple disc currently used. A lockout chamber for SF divers would also be welcome along with a hull plug for AIP module and extra accommodation

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

JAPAN UNLIKELY TO JOIN INDIAN SUB TENDER

NEW DELHI and TOKYO — Japan has shown little interest in competing its Soryu-Class submarines in the Indian Navy's $12 billion tender for six conventional air independent propulsion (AIP) subs, an Indian Defence Ministry source said.

Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar asked his counterpart, Gen Nakatani, during their March 30-31 meeting in Tokyo, to offer the Soryu but the Japanese side remained "non committal," the MoD source added. Indian Navy officials and submarine experts are also divided about whether the Soryu class could serve Indian Navy requirements.

"To make a comparison with German 214 or Scorpene, the Soryu-class is considerably larger than either the Type 214, Scorpene or even the Russian improved Kilo, and can carry a much heavier weapons load," said Probal Ghosh, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation. "They are seemingly quieter and longer-ranged than the other boats on the market. Cost-wise it is comparable to the other subs. But the designed life of Japanese subs is only 20 years, which is much less than what the other subs are designed for."

Some officials also wondered whether the Soryu can fire Indian-made missiles.

"Soryu-class submarines are a recent induction in Japan." said Shyam Kumar Singh, a retired Indian Navy captain. "It is a conventional diesel electric submarine with AIP from Kockums. They are very potent and capable of carrying torpedoes and Harpoon missiles. They seem to be at par with German submarines. The only catch is that the Indian Navy would like to have bigger and indigenous missiles."

According to a senior Japanese defense analyst, officially no talks were conducted on the issue during the meeting between the two defense ministers. While the Japanese side is aware of India's position and interest in Soyru-based technologies, Japan is taking a cautious approach to any additional deal with India because it is focused on finalizing the sale to New Delhi of some 15 to 18 ShinMaywa US-2amphibious search-and-rescue planes before tackling new business.

"Japan is new to complex arms and technology agreements with third countries, and it has no experience in offsets," the source said. "It has been said that India wants up to a 30 percent offset for the US-2 deal, and Japanese negotiators are unsure how to conclude the agreement."

Alessio Patalano, a Japanese naval expert at King's College, London, said part of the problem is that the Soryu class is more technologically advanced and stealthier than competitive diesel vessels, meaning there might be limited commercial advantage in a deal for submarines that were perhaps beyond what India needs, would be difficult for India to build and difficult for an experienced Japan to work out technology transfers.

"There are three reasons that make Japanese reluctance understandable," Patalano said. "The first is operational. The Soryu's design is maximized to favor longer patrols and operational flexibility [hence the larger size], both features being not particularly relevant to India's requirements. The second concerns the limited commercial advantage of this deal. Indian shipbuilding industry has limited capacity and a track record that is less than stellar. ... The third aspect concerns reputation. Japan is still learning its ropes in defense-related cooperation/sales, and an Indian experience might be problematic. If you're the new kid in town, you don't want your reputation to be tarnished before you have established it."

Meanwhile, overseas defense shipyards including France's DCNS, Germany's HDW, Spain's Navantia and Russia's Rosoboronexport are likely to forge tie-ups with domestic shipyards to compete in the upcoming submarine tender, but none have been settled.

An Indian Navy official said that while the Soryu-class submarines are quieter and can take a heavier load, it is still not certain India would buy the heavier vessels. After coming to power in May 2014, the Narendra Modi government canceled an earlier proposal to acquire the submarines from the global market under Project 75-I and reserved the acquisition only in the Buy and Make (India) category.

Under the Buy and Make (India) category, the overseas shipyards will have to transfer technology to the domestic shipyard to compete in the tender but the Japanese are known to be reluctant to part with advanced technology, the Navy official said.

"I do not see that [transfer of technology] as a problem since there are indicators that the Japanese would transfer the design to the Australian Navy," Ghosh said. "In case they are not willing to give the design, then they would not be considered for P75."

The acquisition of conventional submarines under Project 75-I is already delayed by seven years, and so are the French Scorpene submarines being license-produced by Mazagon Docks. Purchasing submarines in the Buy and Make (India) category also causes delays because the whole process has begun afresh, the official added.

India's submarine strength has fallen from 21 in 1986 to 14, which includes Russian Kilo-class vessels acquired between 1980 and 2000, four aging HDW-class submarines and one nuclear submarine bought on lease from Russia two years ago.


Japan Unlikely To Join Indian Sub Tender

 

[Bheeshma]

Thank god. IN never wanted that submarine. We need something that can fire Brahmos and Nirbhay for the P-75I.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is strange that it has life of only 20 years ? ..

Though it is a non nuclear sub with such endurance is very attractive ..

Thank god. IN never wanted that submarine. We need something that can fire Brahmos and Nirbhay for the P-75I.

 

[Zebra]

It is strange that it has life of only 20 years ? ..

Though it is a non nuclear sub with such endurance is very attractive ..

It is Japanese navy who use it for 20 years only. After it they prefer to buy new sub.

Does it mean Japanese submarines has life of only 20 years!

 

[Immanuel]

Actually instead of wasting time building a new type of sub, MDL should be given a direct order of the larger Scorpene being offered, makes no sense to start this whole process of ordering afresh, would take another 3 years before anything is ordered if this process continues. While a direct order of 6 more large Scorpenes with additional abilities would allow for MDL to just continue producing and the next 6 subs can be delivered by 2025. The way things are going now, I doubt a deal will be signed for another 2 years minimum. Then by 2025 we would have 12 Scorpenes and a few Arihant class subs while the oldest Kilos are sent out of service, meanwhile perhaps we can work on our own home made electric subs. This whole competitive deal is a waste of time.

 

[Bheeshma]

Check the endurance of Collins with Soryu class. The Soryu class doesn't have a very good endurance like Collins.

 

[nrj]

Hope my Pipavav stocks pay up well, if only chota ambani does not screw up this company as well

btw anyone got peeps into MoD's global maritime security landscape 2005-2030 report, which was in study for years now? It was pre-requisite for p75(i/ii) subs.

 

[Bheeshma]

Ideally More scorpene with DRDO AIP and VLS for Nirbhay or Brahmos-M should be ordered (4-6)? The P-75I can be either Russian based design or Type-214 (but only if Brahmos-M & Nirbhay can be fired from it.) Germans are already providing Israel with subs capable of firing Popeye cruise missiles.

 

[Adux]

Ideally More scorpene with DRDO AIP and VLS for Nirbhay or Brahmos-M should be ordered (4-6)? The P-75I can be either Russian based design or Type-214 (but only if Brahmos-M & Nirbhay can be fired from it.) Germans are already providing Israel with subs capable of firing Popeye cruise missiles.

Scorpene when operational in Indian Navy, will be having technology that is dated and atleast 15 years old. The First Scorpene Submarine sailed in 2005, that means most technology in it will be Late 1990's .

 

[Bheeshma]

The scorpene is as new as they come. The soryu is bigger but otherwise offers no advantage and comes with lot of restrictions. Yes Type-216 would be ideal but we would be the first customers and am not sure if its worth the risk.

 

[uoftotaku]

Ideally More scorpene with DRDO AIP and VLS for Nirbhay or Brahmos-M should be ordered (4-6)? The P-75I can be either Russian based design or Type-214 (but only if Brahmos-M & Nirbhay can be fired from it.) Germans are already providing Israel with subs capable of firing Popeye cruise missiles.

Several points to give you some better understanding:

1.) AIP - Scorpene can only be equiped with DRDO AIP when that system is seen to be fit for operation. At the moment it exists only as a theoretical concept and NO actual physical progress has been made. Given the normal pace of operations at our PSU's, the Scorpene could be near retirement by the time the system is ready to be acceptable. The ONLY solution for AIP right now is MESMA which is custom made for Scorpene. If the IN was serious about its need for AIP it would have put its foot down and asked for it. As such, with our short duration patrols and relatively shallow water operation against a fairly unequipped and incompetent enemy ( PN has laughable anti-submarine expertise) there is no serious need for AIP in the Western Command zone. Some Retd folks may make noise about it in the media at the behest of whoever is pulling their strings but for Scorpene it would be a waste of time and money. For Eastern Command with longer duration patrols and deeper operations, yes AIP makes some sense. This is an area that the IN has so far essentially stayed out of for lack of available resources so it desperately needs assets to assert its authority. But an AIP equipped SSK is NOT the solution. By their very design, SSK's are not meant for blue-water operations. Only Japan and Australia use SSK's for such operations and they use very expensive, highly customized and ultimately unique designs for their use. A design like the SMX-Ocean or HDW Type-216 would run into the $1.4-1.8B per hull zone which is a ludicrous price to pay for an SSK because most nations build full scale SSN's for similar price tags. Hence the recent welcome decision by RM to make 6 SSN's and also get additional Project-971 SSN from Russia which will neatly solve the Eastern conundrum. P-75i will most likely end up with more Scorpene's from MDL, most likely with MESMA but only IF the IN insists on AIP.

2.) VLS - There is currently only 1 SSK in the world known to have VLS system and that is the Chinese Yuan-class derivative displayed at a Naval Expo couple of years back which may or may not actually exist. There are immense physical restrictions in play on an SSK which make it impractical if not impossible to successfully integrate a useful VLS into the hull. Even the Type-216 and SMX-Ocean but have only a SINGLE tube VLS in their concept art and certainly are not able to accommodate BrahMos but rather the VL version of Exocet, SCALP-N, NSM and similar. The Russians showed off an Amur derivative with plug in BrahMos VLS tubes ( 10 I believe) but this required considerable lengthening of the hull and a "hump" to accommodate the massive missile all of which would severely effect performance. BrahMos-M you mentioned is still on drawing board stage only AND if you look carefully at its design dimensions you will realize that it is meant to solve the VLS conundrum...as it is being designed to fit inside and be fired from a standard 21.inch torpedo tube in the way that Klub is used by our Kilo's today. Nirbhay also is proportioned to fit in this way (as it uses the Klub design as a base point). So in case both these systems become operational, all existing SSN and SSK will be able to use them without need for modifications.

FYI - The Dolphin-class Type-214 derivatives that are used by Israel also lack any VLS. They in fact have been fitted with additional 26-inch torpedo tubes ( to supplement the standard 21-inch) that allows them to fire the Popeye Turbo missile which by the way is a Nuclear Strike Weapon rather than a conventional cruise missile. Note that the Russian's employ a similar missile (the Granat-N) from similar 26-inch tubes on their Project-971 SSN's ( these larger tubes were removed from INS Chakra to fulfill MTCR restrictions)

 

[NLD]

Source:Idrw

Russians smell blood on India’s
Project (P)-75I

While India is yet to formally issue Request for
proposal (RFP) for the Project (P)-75I, under
which Indian navy plans to acquire 6 modern
Conventional Stealth submarines. Russian Rubin
Design Bureau
who is responsible for Amur class Submarine
design have briefed Russian media that they
have completed technical flexibility of Integrating
BrahMos missiles system and Air Independent
Propulsion if desired by Indian Navy.
Chief designer at Rubin Design Bureau Mr. Igor
Molchanov believes that Integrating BrahMos
missiles system and Air Independent Propulsion
(AIP) are expected to be two key requirements
which Indian navy might request in RFP for
P-75I.
Molchanov added that Integrating Submarine
variant of BrahMos missiles system, which was
first test-fired from an underwater pontoon off
Visakhapatnam nearly two years ago will be
natural choice for Indian Navy as it could add
much needed offensive surface attack options
for anti-ship as well as for land-attack roles .
BrahMos in vertical launch configuration is
capable of being launched from submarine from
a depth of 40-50 metres. The missile can be
installed in a modular launcher vertically in the
pressure hull of the submarine.
Molchanov also said that Russian designed Air
Independent Propulsion (AIP) have been tested
successfully on land and they are currently
planning to carry out sea trials of the units,
which they plan to complete by the end of 2016.
He also pointed out that Rubin Design Bureau
and DRDO are ready to explore cooperations in
case Indian navy requested integration of Indian-
designed AIP module.
Rubin Design Bureau and DRDO are
independently developing liquid oxygen and
hydrogen based fuel cell Air Independent
Propulsion (AIP) systems which negate need for
storing hydrogen and are very similar technically
and both organisations have exchanged visits to
each other facilities and have also identified
common solutions if need arises for
collaboration.
Taking a potshot at rival German camp who are
also in the race to offer their latest HDW
Submarines with AIP technology, Molchanov said
that ThyssenKrupp developed air-independent
propulsion (AIP) require use of hydrogen and
liquid oxygen which needs to be stored on board
and considers Russian and Indian system to be
much safer and superior .
Molchanov standing by his previous statement,
which was also reported by idrw.org in our
previous report he again said that regardless of
who is awarded contract for Project (P)-75I by
India, at least one or ideally two submarines
should be allowed to be built at OEM facilities
and rest in India which will allow Indian
engineers and Docks workers in job experience
while working at OEM premises which can
certainly avoid delays and similar fate which lead
to Project (P)-75/ Scorpene missing delivery
schedules due to lack of building expertise at
MDL .