Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[SajeevJino]

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:fkidding: DCNS

A SSK can do all these Things ..Impressive Presentation


DCNS - SMX® Ocean Multi-Role Attack Submarine Combat Simulation [1080p] - YouTube

@bengalraider @sayareakd

 

[bengalraider]

It's a great boat, we need to negotiate tough and keep all the lessons of the scorpene fiasco in mind before committing ourselves.

 

[Zebra]

I guarantee you, no matter how tough you try to be or no matter how great care you take, dramas like Scorpene will happen again and again.

It will happen bcz someone from the most powerful authority in India, wants it to happen. IMO.

Get ready for one more similar fiasco......the mother of all defense deals gonna become mother of all defense fiasco. If they manage to get it signed.

 

[Zebra]

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:fkidding: DCNS

A SSK can do all these Things ..Impressive Presentation

DCNS - SMX® Ocean Multi-Role Attack Submarine Combat Simulation [1080p] - YouTube

@bengalraider @sayareakd

Sir, all next generation SSK can do all these things.

 

[Zebra]

Livefist

The Big 'Make In India' Submarine Hunt 3.0

Thursday, October 30, 2014

 

[Abhi9]

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

Indian Navy subs can soon stay longer under water

Indian scientists have developed technology that will enable the navy's conventional non-nuclear submarines stay under water for up to two weeks before replenishing their oxygen supply, thus increasing their stealth capabilities.

"Conventional submarines usually need to come to the surface every three to four days for replenishing their oxygen supply," an official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which has developed the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, told IANS, speaking on condition of anonymity.

For the replenishment, a diesel submarine has to come to periscope depth and raise its snorkel, which makes it vulnerable to detection.

"With AIP, a conventional submarine can stay under water for up to two weeks," the official said, adding that India is the only non-Western nation to have developed the technology.

AIP can replace or supplement the diesel-electric propulsion systems of conventional submarines. It also makes a vessel noise-free.

The system, which is in an advanced stage of development, will be mounted on last two of the six Scorpene submarines being manufactured in India in collaboration with France.

These two submarines are expected to be ready in a couple of years, along with the AIP system.

"We took up the project in 2010, and the work is in an advanced stage. The tests are going on," the official said.

The DRDO is also hopeful that the system will be used in the six conventional submarines that were recently cleared for being domestically manufactured.

"So far it is not clear who will be making the six new conventional submarines, but if it is successful in the Scorpene, it will open the door for its incorporation in other submarines as well," the official said.

The system, which is based on a fuel cell, converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which in turn produces electricity. While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent.

The official said the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) based in Ambernath in Maharashtra, which has developed the AIP, has already tied up with several Indian Public Sector Units (PSUs) and the private sector as partners in the project. Production will start as soon as the final tests are over.

 

[arnabmit]

After completing this, hope DRDO starts work on the next gen AIP which the Russians have developed.

Instead of producing Hydrogen from highly flammable hydrocarbons carried on-board seperately, as in the DRDO AIP, the Russian system produces Hydrogen via Autothermal Reforming from the low inflammable diesel which is anyhow carried on-board.

 

[cobra commando]

Saurav Jha's Blog : A look at the Indian Navy's Project 75I tender to #MakeinIndia six diesel-electric submarines

 

[santosh10]

i always favor India to either have military arms by its own, or it would come with full tech transfer, and we have only Russia in this regard :thumb:

also, Russian arms, including Submarines for Project75I, are always found bit cheaper than what you get from any western supplier, including France. while on long run, Russian arms do match its western rivals, its also true.....

even if we have a look on the Scorpion submarine deal of Project75, which was to be delivered by 2009, as per the agreement made that time in 2004, whose price for 6 pieces from $2.1billion in 2004 has risen well over $6.0billion+ to date, to be delivered by 2015+ now, if not more. hence we would always favor any offer which may help India's domestic submarine projects? :thumb:

 

[lookieloo]

@Kunal -the price is what makes me think that the P75I boats will either be one of the two uber modern types you pointed out (I'd prefer the soryu), however the french might just offer us the very advanced smx 25 ocean based on the barracuda.

To whom it may concern, I posted this awhile back. http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...mps-aip-lithium-ion-submarine-propulsion.html Seems the Japanese are abandoning AIP and going back to batteries since lithium-ions are so good now.

 

[cobra commando]

Three defence PSUs join hands for indigenous submarine project

Mumbai: Three state-run companies—Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd (Bhel), Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd and Hindustan Shipyard Ltd—have come together to form a consortium for building submarines indigenously. The consortium will jointly stake claim with the ministry of defence for being considered as a prospective bidder for the proposed P-75 (I) project of the Indian Navy for building six submarines at a local shipyard. In a statement, Bhel said a memorandum of understanding was signed among the three firms on 26 December. The Indian government has decided to build six submarines locally at a cost of about Rs.50,000 crore. Bhel has five decades of experience in design, development and manufacture of a variety of equipment for crucial infrastructure sectors, while Hindustan Shipyard is engaged in shipbuilding, repairs and submarine retrofitting. Mishra Dhatu is another defence PSU engaged in development and manufacture of alloys and special-purpose steel for applications in defence, aerospace and atomic energy. At 11.50am, Bhel was trading at Rs.257.50 per share, up 1.18%. The benchmark Sensex was trading at 27,373, down 0.08%.
Three defence PSUs join hands for indigenous submarine project - Livemint

 

[nrj]

What design will they be using for new subs?

Looks like hot air to me, not much to read here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cobra commando]

India asks Japan if it’s interested in Rs 50,000 crore submarine project - The Times of India

 

[Bheeshma]

Seems like negotiation tactic. In will not go for Soryu. They want P-75I with DRDO AIP and Brahmos.

 

[Kharavela]

After completing this, hope DRDO starts work on the next gen AIP which the Russians have developed.

Instead of producing Hydrogen from highly flammable hydrocarbons carried on-board seperately, as in the DRDO AIP, the Russian system produces Hydrogen via Autothermal Reforming from the low inflammable diesel which is anyhow carried on-board.

Will any learned member answer my query ?
As we know, oxygen generator in a submarine uses electrolysis method to break water molecules to generate Oxygen & Hydrogen.
Why the AIP fuel cells are not using hydrogen generated from electrolysis instead of hydrocarbons such as methanol or ethanol ?

 

[bengalraider]

Keeping in mind the close personal relation NAMO and Abe share this could actually be much more than a negotiation tactic, add to that the talks of a quadrilateral alliance between Japan , the Aussies , India and the U.S to contain china and the possibility of operating a common SSK across three of these navies suddenly starts to make much more sense.

 

[arnabmit]

Will any learned member answer my query ?
As we know, oxygen generator in a submarine uses electrolysis method to break water molecules to generate Oxygen & Hydrogen.
Why the AIP fuel cells are not using hydrogen generated from electrolysis instead of hydrocarbons such as methanol or ethanol ?

The same reason why "perpetual motion machines" cannot practically exist.

Let's consider the cycle:
1> Hydrogen is used as fuel in Hydrogen fuel cells
2> Hydrogen fuel cells are used to generate electricity
3> The electricity is used to run the propulsion motor
4> The electricity is also used to do electrolysis of sea water
5> Electrolysis of sea water produces Hydrogen
6> Back to step 1

Law of conservation of energy states that "the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor be destroyed, but it can change form."

In simpler words, the amount of energy in the electricity needed (eE) to produce enough energy in the form of Hydrogen (eH) via electrolysis to produce energy via an hydrogen fuel cell (eHFC), even after energy loss due to Electric propulsion motor (eL1) or heat (eL2) or HFC efficiency loss (eL3) or other electronic and electrical equipments (eL4), is much higher than the amount of electricity HFC can produce with the amount of Hydrogen already produced by electrolysis.

eE > eH > eHFC > eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4)

So if the cycle runs a few times (3 times in the following example), the amount of energy in the system would be depleted due to persistent energy losses.

Cycle 1 = eE > eH > eHFC > eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4)
Cycle 2 = eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eH-(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eHFC-(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eE-2(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4)
Cycle 3 = eE-2(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eH-2(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eHFC-2(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4) > eE-3(eL1+eL2+eL3+eL4)

Therefore the system would need regular injection of external energy to make up for the energy lost. This injection is done with hydrogen or hydrocarbons carried on-board.

The German HDW AIP uses hydrogen fuel cells, carries extra hydrogen on-board, uses electrolysis hydrogen, still can only stay underwater for only 14 days at a stretch.

Hope I was able to explain.

 

[Kharavela]

The same reason why "perpetual motion machines" cannot practically exist.

Let's consider the cycle:
1> Hydrogen is used as fuel in Hydrogen fuel cells
2> Hydrogen fuel cells are used to generate electricity
3> The electricity is used to run the propulsion motor
4> The electricity is also used to do electrolysis of sea water
5> Electrolysis of sea water produces Hydrogen
6> Back to step 1

Law of conservation of energy states that "the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor be destroyed, but it can change form."

In simpler words, the amount of energy in the electricity needed (eE) to produce enough energy in the form of Hydrogen (eH) via electrolysis to produce energy via an hydrogen fuel cell (eHFC), even after energy loss due to Electric propulsion motor (eL1) or heat (eL2) or HFC efficiency loss (eL3), is much higher than the HFC can produce with the amount of Hydrogen already produced.

eE > eH > eHFC > eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3)

So if the cycle runs a few times (3 times in the following example), the amount of energy in the system would be depleted due to persistent energy losses.

Cycle 1 = eE > eH > eHFC > eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3)
Cycle 2 = eE-(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eH-(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eHFC-(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eE-2(eL1+eL2+eL3)
Cycle 3 = eE-2(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eH-2(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eHFC-2(eL1+eL2+eL3) > eE-3(eL1+eL2+eL3)

Therefore the system would need regular injection of external energy to make up for the energy lost. This injection is done with hydrogen or hydrocarbons carried on-board.

Hope I was able to explain.

Thank you, Sir.

So, if electrolysis is excluded from the cycle i.e. hydrogen is generated by another source of electricity, HFC cycle in your example should run smoothly.

My point is: there would be no need to carry inflammable materials (methanol or any other hydrocarbon or hydrogen cylinders) onboard of a submarine, when hydrogen can be generated through electrolysis for use in HFC.

 

[arnabmit]

Thank you, Sir.

So, if electrolysis is excluded from the cycle i.e. hydrogen is generated by another source of electricity, HFC cycle in your example should run smoothly.

My point is: there would be no need to carry inflammable materials (methanol or any other hydrocarbon or hydrogen cylinders) onboard of a submarine, when hydrogen can be generated through electrolysis for use in HFC.

No, not really. The Hydrogen generated by electrolysis alone is less than the amount of hydrogen required by the HFC is to do the electrolysis.

So, both the 'electrolysis hydrogen' and the 'on-board hydrogen' is required to power the HFC, to power the electrolysis, along with the electricity required for propulsion, electronic and electrical components, and watt-loss across different systems.

Efficiency of modern hydrogen generators is measured by power consumed per standard volume of hydrogen (MJ/m3), assuming standard temperature and pressure of the H2. A 100%-efficient electrolyser would consume 11.7 MJ/m3; the lower the actual power used, the higher efficiency.

Electrolyser vendors provide efficiencies based on enthalpy. To assess the claimed efficiency of an electrolyser it is important to establish how it was defined by the vendor (i.e. what enthalpy value, what current density, etc).

There are two main technologies available on the market, alkaline and proton exchange membrane (PEM) electrolysers. Alkaline electrolysers are cheaper in terms of investment (they generally use nickel catalysts), but less efficient; PEM electrolysers, conversely, are more expensive (they generally use expensive platinum-group metal catalysts) but are more efficient and can operate at higher current densities, and can be therefore be possibly cheaper if the hydrogen production is large enough. Reported working efficiencies are in the range 60-75% for alkaline and 65–90% for PEM.

If the maximum efficiency of HFC (60%) and electrolysis (90%) is considered, then the efficiency of the cycle (HFC-E-EL-HFC) is very less.

The energy (electrical) as the output of HFC is 40% lesser than the energy (chemical-hydrogen) required by the input.
The energy (chemical-hydrogen) as the output of electrolysis is 10% lesser than the energy (electrical) required by the input.
The total efficiency of energy in the HFC+Electrolysis system is 54%, and looses 46% of the energy.

Now extra hydrogen is required to cover up for this 46% energy loss.

Even with infusion of 46% extra energy (chemical-hydrogen), the system would have 100% output, but it would only run the system (HFC+Electrolysis), and would not have any extra energy to run propulsion and other electrical & electronic systems of the submarine.

So much more extra energy (chemical-hydrogen) is needed to make the system usable in the submarine, which is carried on-board in the form of either pure hydrogen or hydrocarbons.

 

[Zebra]

The Germans are offering Type 214 or Type 218?

I asked it here ----> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-navy/66456-japan-may-sell-india-six-stealth-submarines.html

Type 218 is influenced by class 214 and class 216 (concept).

https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-216.html

Type 216 U-216 Conventional Submarine SSK AIP TKMS HDW Submarine Class 216 Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Royal Australian Navy datasheet pictures images photos video specification

Type 216 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia