Project-17A Nilgiri-class Frigate Thread

[LordofLight]

It's already made of metal, just exposed & shaped to reflect more radar signature. Kinda opposite of stealth!

Warships today may be detected by radar at distances of hundreds of kilometres, not always will it be visually confirmed. Mounted with a radar & 4 LRSAM (2 armytruck's load on land), the Missile-boat's chances to go on pretending to be warship will be even higher.
Very small fishing trawlers or whaling ships go pretty far out into the seas too, I'm sure missile-boats may be used for coastal warfare... They struck Karachi itself.

The submarine pods can be mobile, released by ships or subs. A propelling unit with just enough power to move it at real submarine's speeds, a battery for it, a tiny GPS for locating & retrieving.

I also thought of dropping sonars with underwater cells of long-ranged torpedoes (650km under development) & forming a network all over India's territorial waters, even in International waters if they're not permanent. They can be used to track & hit any surface or submerged vessel within hundreds of kilometres!

Oh no no no no no!!! You have misunderstood me completely.
I didn't mean boarding action, but back in those days, ships used to even deliberately carry extra men to crew & drive a surrendered prize ship to a home port with all the prisoners... With comparatively soft-skinned warships today, either that will happen or the enemy ship will be obliterated by ASM. Towing of immobilized/damaged ship won't be possible.

Anyways, the Chinese ships carry almost 50% more anti-ship missiles even without replacing SAMs in their universal VLS, & in most scenarios Indian ships will run out of ammo first. THEY'LL KNOW WHEN THE FIRING STOPS.

Yes, even I wondered this same thing. Take a look at Kolkata class and even the Vishakhapatnam class, both classes seriously under armed compared to comparable Chinese vessel. But then I feel, that the Indian Navy isn’t stupid, they might have the confidence in their limited number of offensive and defensive systems. Maybe the Chinese are not confident about their own systems and maybe their systems have high rate of failures. So to compensate for this quality, they might have gone for quantity. Just my two cents, I might be completely wrong as well in my assessment.

 

[uoftotaku]

Yes, even I wondered this same thing. Take a look at Kolkata class and even the Vishakhapatnam class, both classes seriously under armed compared to comparable Chinese vessel. But then I feel, that the Indian Navy isn’t stupid, they might have the confidence in their limited number of offensive and defensive systems. Maybe the Chinese are not confident about their own systems and maybe their systems have high rate of failures. So to compensate for this quality, they might have gone for quantity. Just my two cents, I might be completely wrong as well in my assessment.

There is method behind the seeming madness. A ship is equipped to fight today's conflict but designed to fight tomorrow's. Weapon systems wise the country is at a pivot point right now where we are limited by currently available primary items like BrahMos & Barak-8 to a point not far in the future (5-7 years from now) when a whole series of new systems currently in development pipeline will start coming online. The IN's primary surface combatant's weapons suite in 2025 will look VERY different from what it is right now but the space on board has already been allocated to accommodate them. But if you use up that space now with more current systems, it becomes both a costly proposition to equip immediately and an even more costly proposition to justify ripping those still new systems out in 5 years time.

 

[LordofLight]

There is method behind the seeming madness. A ship is equipped to fight today's conflict but designed to fight tomorrow's. Weapon systems wise the country is at a pivot point right now where we are limited by currently available primary items like BrahMos & Barak-8 to a point not far in the future (5-7 years from now) when a whole series of new systems currently in development pipeline will start coming online. The IN's primary surface combatant's weapons suite in 2025 will look VERY different from what it is right now but the space on board has already been allocated to accommodate them. But if you use up that space now with more current systems, it becomes both a costly proposition to equip immediately and an even more costly proposition to justify ripping those still new systems out in 5 years time.

Makes sense. But still the 17A class ships seem under equipped considering the timeline of their commissioning. Will the navy incorporate these new systems during the build phase?

 

[uoftotaku]

Makes sense. But still the 17A class ships seem under equipped considering the timeline of their commissioning. Will the navy incorporate these new systems during the build phase?

The P-17As will all be in service very soon. The methods being employed in construction are cutting edge and all 7 ships will be on the water in record time. In build phase they have therefore been allowed to have what is called reserve buoyancy. So the Nilgiri has sufficient space and buoyancy to accommodate a further 24 UVLS cells but is fitted only with 8 for now. The additional cells can be added within the space of a 15 day light refit period in dry dock once the Nirbhay matures. The fwd battery will be replaced with 12-16 cell BrahMos-NG battery once that system matures (they VLS launch system for that missile is still being conceptualized. Most likely will be a new common launcher shared the naval XR-SAM). For the LR-SAM, the number of cells can be increased to 48 within the same time frame. The VL-Astra / N-QR SAM point defense battery is already allocated space. The P-17Bs once they are conceptualized and ordered will come built in with all these systems from the start. The P-18 cruiser / super destroyer will be the ultimate expression of the IN's offensive firepower vision and a true showcase of indigenous technology where even the propulsion plant will be fully domestic design.

 

[ladder]

For anyone asking why 32 VLS MRSAM and not more, the cost of each of MRSAM is about 1million USD. If you look at installing more 32 VLS in any ship, you are looking at a figure of 60-80 million USD.


DRDO has claimed the cost of Rs 6 crore per missile is cheap, given that it shoots down sophisticated fighters costing hundreds of crores

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-new-missile-ups-navy-s-anti-warfare-capabilities-2750284

 

[uoftotaku]

For anyone asking why 32 VLS MRSAM and not more, the cost of each of MRSAM is about 1million USD. If you look at installing more 32 VLS in any ship, you are looking at a figure of 60-80 million USD.


DRDO has claimed the cost of Rs 6 crore per missile is cheap, given that it shoots down sophisticated fighters costing hundreds of crores

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-new-missile-ups-navy-s-anti-warfare-capabilities-2750284

It is extremely cheap given that an AIM-120D costs close to US$3M each for FMS sales! But yes, cost is definitely a factor...BrahMos is even crazier per round

 

[ladder]

It is extremely cheap given that an AIM-120D costs close to US$3M each for FMS sales! But yes, cost is definitely a factor...BrahMos is even crazier per round

Yes. Akash Mk1 is about half a million USD. Brahmos by some estimate is 3 mil USD.

 

[uoftotaku]

Yes. Akash Mk1 is about half a million USD. Brahmos by some estimate is 3 mil USD.

BrahMos is 30 cr per round...plus the UVLM system itself costs ard 15 cr per set

 

[ladder]

BrahMos is 30 cr per round...plus the UVLM system itself costs ard 15 cr per set

Yes. The point is by limiting the number of rounds of Brahmos or Barak 8 sam, in 7 ships we can save equivalent to the cost of one Talwar frigate or 4 NOPV.

 

[Akula]

7th ship name is going to be Mahendragiri.

 

[Bleh]

Something just dawnee upon me...
Godavari class frigates (3400t) had 4×ASM & 24×SAM.
Talwar class frigates (3850t) has 8×ASM & 24×SAM.
Shivalik class frigates (6200t) has 8×ASM & 32×SAM.
Nilgiri class "frigates" (6670t) will have 8×ASM & 32×SAM.

In comparison:
Delhi class destroyers (6200t) has 16×ASM & 48×SAM.
Kolkata class destroyers (7400t) has 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
Vishakhapatnam class (7400t?) will have 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
GRSE building 10000t capacity dry-dock.

Basically India is developing same frigates, with same firepower, except newer ones get advance tech & are shitfucking larger... Why? Endurance?

Also, now we need to copy China and learn to quickly produce multiple clones of each ships... They've 20 Type-52D (7500t, 64 universal VLS) at various stages, 14 Type-55 (12500t, 112 universal VLS)!!!

 

[aarav]

Something just dawnee upon me...
Godavari class frigates (3400t) had 4×ASM & 24×SAM.
Talwar class frigates (3850t) has 8×ASM & 24×SAM.
Shivalik class frigates (6200t) has 8×ASM & 32×SAM.
Nilgiri class "frigates" (6670t) will have 8×ASM & 32×SAM.

In comparison:
Delhi class destroyers (6200t) has 16×ASM & 48×SAM.
Kolkata class destroyers (7400t) has 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
Vishakhapatnam class (7400t?) will have 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
GRSE building 10000t capacity dry-dock.

Basically India is developing same frigates, with same firepower, except newer ones get advance tech & are shitfucking larger... Why? Endurance?

Also, now we need to copy China and learn to quickly produce multiple clones of each ships... They've 20 Type-52D (7500t, 64 universal VLS) at various stages, 14 Type-55 (12500t, 112 universal VLS)!!!

I think we are looking too much at the numbers it can carry rather than the quality of missile systems and radars onboard especially BEL Bow Sonar,MFSTAR & Indra secondary radar ,we should also remember that public and classified information are very different

 

[Akula]

Something just dawnee upon me...
Godavari class frigates (3400t) had 4×ASM & 24×SAM.
Talwar class frigates (3850t) has 8×ASM & 24×SAM.
Shivalik class frigates (6200t) has 8×ASM & 32×SAM.
Nilgiri class "frigates" (6670t) will have 8×ASM & 32×SAM.

In comparison:
Delhi class destroyers (6200t) has 16×ASM & 48×SAM.
Kolkata class destroyers (7400t) has 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
Vishakhapatnam class (7400t?) will have 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
GRSE building 10000t capacity dry-dock.

Basically India is developing same frigates, with same firepower, except newer ones get advance tech & are shitfucking larger... Why? Endurance?

Also, now we need to copy China and learn to quickly produce multiple clones of each ships... They've 20 Type-52D (7500t, 64 universal VLS) at various stages, 14 Type-55 (12500t, 112 universal VLS)!!!

We lack destroyers, in next decade all Rajput class destroyers will be decommissioned( INS Rajput already decommissioned). The number of destroyers will not increase as 4 Vishakapatnam destroyers will only replace them.

 

[ladder]

We lack destroyers, in next decade all Rajput class destroyers will be decommissioned( INS Rajput already decommissioned). The number of destroyers will not increase as 4 Vishakapatnam destroyers will only replace them.

INS Ranjit is the one that was decommissioned.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Something just dawnee upon me...
Godavari class frigates (3400t) had 4×ASM & 24×SAM.
Talwar class frigates (3850t) has 8×ASM & 24×SAM.
Shivalik class frigates (6200t) has 8×ASM & 32×SAM.
Nilgiri class "frigates" (6670t) will have 8×ASM & 32×SAM.

In comparison:
Delhi class destroyers (6200t) has 16×ASM & 48×SAM.
Kolkata class destroyers (7400t) has 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
Vishakhapatnam class (7400t?) will have 16×ASM & 32×SAM.
GRSE building 10000t capacity dry-dock.

Basically India is developing same frigates, with same firepower, except newer ones get advance tech & are shitfucking larger... Why? Endurance?

Also, now we need to copy China and learn to quickly produce multiple clones of each ships... They've 20 Type-52D (7500t, 64 universal VLS) at various stages, 14 Type-55 (12500t, 112 universal VLS)!!!

The issue is not with regard to firepower but standardisation. The offensive (Anti Ship) and defensive (Air Defence) components in Russian, Indian, European (sans MK 41 VLS) and Chinese warships (till Type 052C) are separate and non modular.


BrahMos uses UVLM launchers which are deck mounted developed by Larsen and Toubro.

This is based on the Russian UKSK VLS.

The system can launch P 800, Klub series missiles, BrahMos, Zircon, etc.

Traditionally SAM/ASROC type weapons have their own clusters of VLS.


This is the Israeli Barak 8 system prominent on the latest generation ships.

The Russians have the Poliment - Redut VLS based on a Naval S 350E Air Defence Complex.

Meanwhile the Chinese have an all in 1 package of their own which is a hybrid of MK 41 VLS and Russian USKS.

Finally you have the MK 41 VLS aka the gold standard of naval armament design.

 

[Bhurki]

One UVLS cell : 0.85m X 0.85m = 0.7225m²
One MK-41cell : 0.63m X 0.63m = 0.3969m²

ratio UVLS cell /MK-41 cell : 0.7225/0.3969 = 1.82
The Chinese UVLS combines the all in one capability of Mk41 and huge size of UkSK( actually exceeds it)
It can almost launch ballistic DF-11 ( liberties taken )

 

[vampyrbladez]

One UVLS cell : 0.85m X 0.85m = 0.7225m²
One MK-41cell : 0.63m X 0.63m = 0.3969m²

ratio UVLS cell /MK-41 cell : 0.7225/0.3969 = 1.82
The Chinese UVLS combines the all in one capability of Mk41 and huge size of UkSK( actually exceeds it)
It can almost launch ballistic DF-11 ( liberties taken )

To be fair the MK 57 VLS is quite comparable to the Chinese one.

 

[Bhurki]

To be fair the MK 57 VLS is quite comparable to the Chinese one.

View attachment 38769

Mk 57 comes in only tactical length (7m), not strike length (9m)
Its essentially designed to house follow on SM3 future variants, since SM3 Block 2 maxes out Mk41 capacity.
USN never felt the need to increase capability of strike length vls, because most of it is used by tomahawk, which is bread and butter for the Navy, and had no problems accomodating newer versions.
The increasing BMD threat, however, meant more capabilities on the interceptor which couldn't be housed without increase in size. Still,
Mk57 cell = 0.71*0.71 =0.5041 ( 7m cap)
UVLS cell = 0.85*0.85 = 0.7225 (9m cap)
Ratio ( cross section) = 1.43
Ratio ( cell volume) = 1.84

 

[vampyrbladez]

DRDO came up with this new Ship Launch System. By it's description it looks like the Lockheed Martin ExLS. Could this be our new VLS for P 18 class?

Lockheed Martin ExLS

Ship Launch System

 

[Bhurki]

Project 18 doesn't exist. So i don't know any of it.
Also a normalised VLS will work when IN has enough of indigenous armament solutions for majority of purposes to introduce some kind of adaptability and common interface that everything can communicate with.
Right now, the ships are like assembled computers. Radars from israel, main gun from italy, SAM from israel, AShM, ASRoC from Russia.
This makes it impossible to marry them all in one interface.There's no flexibility right now. Each weapon has its own launcher. IVLS will be necessary when the ships will have Nirbhay for LACM, Brahmos for AShm, Indian ASROC( integrated, not RBU), some advanced version of Akash as SAM. Also the planners will need to assume that missions will be more diverse in the future and dedicating a certain space to a certain armament will degrade the capability of the ship. Till then, we don't need to hurry into a half baked VLS that falls short of requirements just some years down the future.