New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Veiled V I P E R 2]

Final contract for AK203 assault rifle set to be finalised shortly - top Indian defence official .

 

[Veiled V I P E R 2]

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[Bleh]

Wouldn't such shotgun be more effective in COIN that the Ak itself!?.. Where stopping power is off the only concern in less than 200m range.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Wouldn't such shotgun be more effective in COIN that the Ak itself!?.. Where stopping power is off the only concern in less than 200m range.

Need spraying power at close range.

 

[JBH22]

Some points I would like to discuss;
The acquisition of small firearms is getting crazy like IAF process, may be a logistic nightmare at the horizon.
a) Assault Rifle : AK 203 plain vanilla model
b) Carbine: Caracal
c) DMR: Sig Sauer
d) LMG: Negev
Now why not a single set of family weapons is inducted, afaik AK200 series provides for carbine,assault rifle, SAW etc. Having a single set of weapons improves logistic commonality, reduce production cost through economies of scale etc.

Second point wrt AK-203 plain vanilla models. For COIN troops or combat troops the AK 203 with all the gadgets makes sense but the logistic fellows etc can do decent job with the plain vanilla model. Save lots of unnecesary expenditure to give the gadgets etc.

 

[ezsasa]

Some points I would like to discuss;
The acquisition of small firearms is getting crazy like IAF process, may be a logistic nightmare at the horizon.
a) Assault Rifle : AK 203 plain vanilla model
b) Carbine: Caracal
c) DMR: Sig Sauer
d) LMG: Negev
Now why not a single set of family weapons is inducted, afaik AK200 series provides for carbine,assault rifle, SAW etc. Having a single set of weapons improves logistic commonality, reduce production cost through economies of scale etc.

Second point wrt AK-203 plain vanilla models. For COIN troops or combat troops the AK 203 with all the gadgets makes sense but the logistic fellows etc can do decent job with the plain vanilla model. Save lots of unnecesary expenditure to give the gadgets etc.

This old trope of “logistical nightmare” because of multiple calibers must stop. With digitised logistics supply chain management systems available, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Aa far as multiple calibers itself is concerned, nature of war has changed. War is not bunker busting like old days, there is a component of urban warfare which is relevant these days.

AK for regular infantry, others are for specialist operations.

But one relevant question still remains, pakis still use G3 for infantry. So will it be G3 vs AK 203, experts plz comment.

 

[piKacHHu]

Some points I would like to discuss;
The acquisition of small firearms is getting crazy like IAF process, may be a logistic nightmare at the horizon.
a) Assault Rifle : AK 203 plain vanilla model
b) Carbine: Caracal
c) DMR: Sig Sauer
d) LMG: Negev
Now why not a single set of family weapons is inducted, afaik AK200 series provides for carbine,assault rifle, SAW etc. Having a single set of weapons improves logistic commonality, reduce production cost through economies of scale etc.

Second point wrt AK-203 plain vanilla models. For COIN troops or combat troops the AK 203 with all the gadgets makes sense but the logistic fellows etc can do decent job with the plain vanilla model. Save lots of unnecesary expenditure to give the gadgets etc.

AK200 / 7.62 round for carbine role is too much. Prevailing trend is for 5.56x45 carbines; more punch and range than 9mm. I doubt whether AK 200 series offer anything in 5.56. Also, I think that carbines have higher rate of fire ( distinguished from MG in sense that it offers sustained rates of fire rather than burst); for that I doubt one could handle muzzle climb in short barreled Ak203 after firing couple of rounds.

 

[JBH22]

This old trope of “logistical nightmare” because of multiple calibers must stop. With digitised logistics supply chain management systems available, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Aa far as multiple calibers itself is concerned, nature of war has changed. War is not bunker busting like old days, there is a component of urban warfare which is relevant these days.

AK for regular infantry, others are for specialist operations.

But one relevant question still remains, pakis still use G3 for infantry. So will it be G3 vs AK 203, experts plz comment.

Exactly urban warfare is the future of any conflict Fallujah or Grozny. But my point is that if you decide to equip an million plus army why not select a single family set of rifles. The aim is to reduce cost whilst offering decent capability. Of course, specialist units will be given specialised tools.

AK200 / 7.62 round for carbine role is too much. Prevailing trend is for 5.56x45 carbines; more punch and range than 9mm. I doubt whether AK 200 series offer anything in 5.56. Also, I think that carbines have higher rate of fire ( distinguished from MG in sense that it offers sustained rates of fire rather than burst); for that I doubt one could handle muzzle climb in short barreled Ak203 after firing couple of rounds.

My understanding is that AK 200 series rifle can be availed in different roles like carbine, SAW etc. The same is true for the AK-12 series.

 

[ashdoc]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-g3-battle-rifle-and-its-legend-reason-38187

About the G3

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

This old trope of “logistical nightmare” because of multiple calibers must stop. With digitised logistics supply chain management systems available, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Aa far as multiple calibers itself is concerned, nature of war has changed. War is not bunker busting like old days, there is a component of urban warfare which is relevant these days.

AK for regular infantry, others are for specialist operations.

But one relevant question still remains, pakis still use G3 for infantry. So will it be G3 vs AK 203, experts plz comment.

I mean G3 used by Porkis are modernized versions that can mount optics, Under barrel grenade launchers and other gear. So it will be more of even fight. The Porkis have made different versions of the G3 because it’s a such robust platform.

 

[ezsasa]

I mean G3 used by Porkis are modernized versions that can mount optics, Under barrel grenade launchers and other gear. So it will be more of even fight. The Porkis have made different versions of the G3 because it’s a such robust platform.

I don’t think I have ever seen paki G3 with UBGL, please post a pic if you have one.

 

[asianobserve]

32 M4A1s will go into Indian military with NASAMS purchase.

Not the best battle rifle. But good enough.

 

[abhay rajput]

32 M4A1s will go into Indian military with NASAMS purchase.

Not the best battle rifle. But good enough.

Bro you are posting like 32 will make a difference.. we have way more than 32 in our inventory already..

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I am new to the forum so pardon me if I am wrong. I just don't understand the concept where some soldiers will be trained & equipped with AR style rifle and others will be on AK.

And caracal's car 816 is close quarter carbine, sig sauer 716 is battle rifle then what purpose rifle will be this Ak203 which is chambered in 7.62*39?

Ak 203 will be used mostly in counter insurgency, while caracal will be given to those personnel who handle other heavy equipment, or who don't fight primarily with their rifles, such as truck drivers, artillerymen, base guards, communication personnel, etc.

 

[Gessler]

This old trope of “logistical nightmare” because of multiple calibers must stop. With digitised logistics supply chain management systems available, this shouldn’t be a problem.

The logistical problem is not in terms of management (i.e. sending correct ammo for correct unit), its with regard to cost of production on the ammo side, and cost of production, maintenance, training etc. on weapon side.

Each type of ammo requires a unique set of infrastructure (dies, presses etc on industrial scale) to produce.

Same goes for the guns. You need separate infrastructure and contracts in place with separate vendors to produce all the multiple types of firearms, which share no commonality in terms of production or components with each other.

Whereas it was possible to get all 3 requirements (7.62N, 5.56N, 7.62K) met with a single line of products like Galil ACE (available in all 3 calibres), dealing with a single company (IWI-Adani JV) and with maximum commonality with regard to parts & training. The economies of scale are huge, thousands of crores could have been saved.

Look at situation as it is now:

> Fast track 7.62N with SIG 716
> Fast track 5.56N with Caracal 816
> Regular issue with Kalashnikov 203
> MII 5.56N, who knows, no guarantee Caracal win again, could be different company
> Potential MII 7.62N, again no guarantee SIG win again

We're potentially looking at dealing with 5 companies, with potentially 5 different products with no commonality. This is madness.

Aa far as multiple calibers itself is concerned, nature of war has changed. War is not bunker busting like old days, there is a component of urban warfare which is relevant these days.

US forces (regulars/SOF) have been using 2 basic rifle calibres for entirety of infantry/small-unit operations for well over 50 years now.

The 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. With these calibres, American forces fought both regular forces (Saddam's army, NVA, Central American armies etc.) as well as irregular forces (Taliban, Iraqi insurgency, IS, VC, countless others) in both open, mountainous terrain like Afghanistan and urban anti-insurgency fighting in cities of Iraq.

I don't see why we can't, if at all we learn to properly identify and fix the problems we have with the weapons involved.

Yes, Americans are going with 6.8x51mm for future. But that's keeping in mind conventional wars of tomorrow where enemy infantry will be wearing Level III or above hard armour plates. Not for fighting insurgents. The 5.56 is considered more than sufficient for the purpose by both Army/Marine regulars as well as SOCOM/JSOC units (which actually have freedom to buy whatever they want unlike regulars).

First off, I feel it was a terrible plan to buy large numbers of assault rifles in 3 different calibres.

But fine, whatever...but second problem is that we're not even doing what we're doing in the most logical way that makes most economic sense (while still respecting the requirements, however flawed or poorly thought-out they may be). You can't blame someone for feeling things could've been better.

But one relevant question still remains, pakis still use G3 for infantry. So will it be G3 vs AK 203, experts plz comment.

On the frontlines, it will be G3 vs SIG716 first. And I'm pretty sure numbers of 716 will increase by quite a bit, I expect at least 1L.

On their own, of course the 716 is a vastly superior platform to G3. But it's true potential can only be tapped when we start employing magnified optics as part of service-issue kit.

I mean G3 used by Porkis are modernized versions that can mount optics, Under barrel grenade launchers and other gear. So it will be more of even fight. The Porkis have made different versions of the G3 because it’s a such robust platform.

These G3Ms exist, but as far as I know, mostly only in arms expos. Rarely if ever seen such modernized G3 in real world use by PA. In fact, vast majority of PA seems to be switching over to AKs (Type-56 and variants).

Now that IA is getting new rifles, I fully expect them to procure 2 new platforms (7.62N as G3 replacement and 7.62K as AK replacement) in near future. Most likely Czech/Polish but hard to say as everything depend on decisions of PA Gernails (kickbacks). Could even be Russian (AK-308 and AK-203/AK-15).

If IA gets watered-down AK103/203 and PA ends up with AK-15, that will surely be joke of the century. And let's not think the Russians won't pull it off, if they get a good deal (to include leverage over PA generals, you can bet Russian intel would love that), they will certainly sell.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

The AK 200 series rifles for the Russian National Guard have the older hand-grip but the new ergonomic stock and thumb shelf on the selector lever.

View attachment 43348
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Russian National Guard AK 203

Indian Production Variant AK 203

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...dian-cqb-carbine-from-ordnance-factory-board/

Our army top brass need some mental treatment. You further downgraded a rifle that was already a baseline budget rifle.

 

[ram singh तोपची]

what is the cost of trichy assault rifle , ak 203 and AK type ghatak assault rifles

 

[Blue Water Navy]

On the frontlines, it will be G3 vs SIG716 first. And I'm pretty sure numbers of 716 will increase by quite a bit, I expect at least 1L.

On their own, of course the 716 is a vastly superior platform to G3. But it's true potential can only be tapped when we start employing magnified optics as part of service-issue kit.

I agree, there should be a standard 4x scope like M4A1 has.

 

[JBH22]

The fighting troops should be equipped with the best ak203 version. The watered down version for rear troops is ok. But COIN troops should be given the rifle with optics and all chills and thrills.
After seeing how Russia reconstructed their army post Georgia conflict 2008 is mind boggling. I mean their budget is more or less same as Indian budget.
The only thing that can explain it is incompetence, corruption and lack of strategic planning.

 

[Harry101]

The fighting troops should be equipped with the best ak203 version. The watered down version for rear troops is ok. But COIN troops should be given the rifle with optics and all chills and thrills.
After seeing how Russia reconstructed their army post Georgia conflict 2008 is mind boggling. I mean their budget is more or less same as Indian budget.
The only thing that can explain it is incompetence, corruption and lack of strategic planning.

Their real available budget is much more than ours because they don't import stuff like us