New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[ashdoc]

ak 203 and car 816 both have different ranges. But they are chambered in two different kind of ammunition?

Okay quick question. So basically from I what heard that 7.62*39 have a better kill rate than insas which is 5.56*45. So why did the armed forces inducted insas in the first place which chambers a round that can only injure the enemy and not kill it?

It was a copy of western liberandu ideas of that time . The westerners said that 5.56 mm rounds will injure enemy soldier and two of his comrades will be involved in carrying him back . So better to wound than kill as it neutralizes 3 soldiers. Of course in the heat of real fighting no one has time to bother about injured soldiers. Especially if they are crazed jihadis. But Indians blindly copied the west . Now both Indians and westerners have realised their mistakes and are moving back to 7.62 after learning some hard lessons.

 

[samsaptaka]

... but then these are the same clowns that ask for Bayonet mounts on the JVPC.

Any source for this ? Would like to understand why they would need a bayonet on a CQB carbine ? Never seen them on the existing ones in use ..

 

[Blue Water Navy]

It was a copy of western liberandu ideas of that time . The westerners said that 5.56 mm rounds will injure enemy soldier and two of his comrades will be involved in carrying him back . So better to wound than kill as it neutralizes 3 soldiers. Of course in the heat of real fighting no one has time to bother about injured soldiers. Especially if they are crazed jihadis. But Indians blindly copied the west . Now both Indians and westerners have realised their mistakes and are moving back to 7.62 after learning some hard lessons.

US is going for the 6.8 not 7.62

 

[ezsasa]

Any source for this ? Would like to understand why they would need a bayonet on a CQB carbine ? Never seen them on the existing ones in use ..

There were tenders for bayonets for JVPC, safe to assume same with happen with CQB.

 

[abingdonboy]

Dont understand why we would have wooden buttstock over adjustable one.

It's not wooden, it will be polymer at least

As to why? the response below sums it up pretty well- these clowns have NO idea how to fight in the 21st century. They are firmly stuck in the 19th, not even 20th, century.

This deal also indicates how the top hierarchy of IA treats normal jawans of Army.

Pretty much, soldiers are expendable to these jokers.

Any source for this ? Would like to understand why they would need a bayonet on a CQB carbine ? Never seen them on the existing ones in use ..

As per IA requests JVPC has bayonet mount

https://www.thetenders.com/All-Indi...shtra/Tender-for-Supply-Of-Bayonet-Mk-Ii-Jvpc

The reason why? Ask the IA generals that come up with these ret@rded ASQRs that are a mixture of fiction and WW1 era.


Irony is the IA isn't even interested in the JVPC, they just want their fancy imports.

 

[Shaitan]

It was also a requirement to have it fire with one hand like a pistol.....

 

[piKacHHu]

rony is the IA isn't even interested in the JVPC, they just want their fancy imports.

Even with import, they know how to make mess out of a decent product on offer i.e. AK 203. I feel this has potential of ruining 200 series brand image as most of the people will see it as the old AK 103 with different flash suppressor and rails.
I believe that their apple cart got upset due to ridiculously low offer price of SIG 716 battle rifle which happened to be winner of Fast track Procurement of Assault Rifle. The impact is so big that it almost destroyed the carbine procurement from CARACAL and made Kalashnikov concern-MOD to adopt petty cost reduction measures like removal of collapsible butt stock etc. to bring the price of a rifle down below $1000.
IMHO, we should get the best modern rifle available in the market for our infantry whether imported or indigenous. Making a indigenous rifle is not matter of prestige for an army which imports majority of its equipment. Moreover, INSAS and its recent avatars show no signs of improvement other than picattiny patches. Getting SIG, CARACAL, Kalashnikov concern etc. to set-up their shop in India is also a good proposition but then one must not compare per unit price of rifle produced domestically with the imported off-the-shelf one. Any sane JV management will try to spread the capital cost (cost of machining tools, land etc. ) over the production cost initially to achieve break-even.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Every time I will see this shitty downgraded 203 in IA soldiers' hands for the next 30+ years it will p!ss me off. Already this deal was needless but the ret@rds in IA do what they do best and fked it up more with their backwards outdated mindsets. Why they would ask for these downgrades is utterly out of my comprehension but then these are the same clowns that ask for Bayonet mounts on the JVPC.



Just hope this deal falls through because Russians are being boneheads as usual. Indians can't save themselves.

Given that this is a high profile political deal for Russians and MoD with Modi mentioning it frequently in his speeches, the deal will go through.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I am not so sure the CAR816 deal is going through. Which would be a crying shame. the CAR and SIGS with shorter barrel lenghts should also become the standard rifles of out SOF units. The TAVORS should be given to MOUT and Tank/Helicopter Crews.

Refer to my earlier post explaining the CAR 816 situation.

Until recently the Indian Army was exploring the use of the AK 204 for it's carbine requirements. However it looks like the CAR 816 CQB variant has been down selected for the Carbine role as intended previously. This is apparent by the DRDO lifting it's objections to the import of a foreign carbine over the OFB/ARDE one and IRRPL having been confirmed to be making only AK 203 rifles.

AK 204 ; AK 203

CAR 816 CQB

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EL4WDEfUUAEdUdk?format=jpg&name=900x900



We are essentially buying a Russian variant of the Bulgarian M5F41 in practice. For comparison :


View attachment 43233

M5F41

AK 203 Production Variant


I believe that the ergonomic buttstock, 50 round magazine and Picatinny rail on the upper handguard were removed to reduce the price for 100% indigenisation. After all the military equipment you use is the cheapest of the best not the best of the best.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/feb...nic_assault_rifle_of_indian_armed_forces.html

 

[Chinmoy]

Dont understand why we would have wooden buttstock over adjustable one.

Because AK-203 is not an only IA requirement, it is going to replace the INSAS variants of state police and other users across the geography.

So a fixed stock would make it easier to shift from the current INSAS, SMLE, FN-FAL(SLR) inventory rather then a adjustable/ folding butt stock.

 

[Knowitall]

Dont understand why we would have wooden buttstock over adjustable one.

Wait a second our ak203 have wooden buttstock oh god please tell me it's wrong please.

 

[Anikastha]

Wait a second our ak203 have wooden buttstock oh god please tell me it's wrong please.

i checked on internet but didnt find any images with wooden stock....if true then yes

 

[Knowitall]

Let's not elude ourselves to the facts of the AK-203 deal though.

This isn't about receiving ToT for Kalashnikov design. We already knew how to reproduce the AK design just fine (Ishapore's Ghaatak and Trichy's TAR are examples). And the AK-203 is not the AK-15, as in it doesn't have any major differences to the legacy AK design, the improvements made are functional, but easily doable on Ghaatak/TAR as well (provided OFB could be a bit more proactive and keep up with the times).

So tech-wise there's nothing in this deal that justifies spending $500 worth of forex per rifle (adds up to about $335 million going into Russia's pocket over the course of the 670,000 production run) if we assume a 50% or close to 50% stake in IRRPL for Kalashnikov/Rosoboronexport.

This deal is simply about keeping both the Russians and the OFB happy with one move. That's all.

But for this money, we could have gotten away with a much much better weapon platform from the West or Israel. Imagine the sheer sums of money we could have saved if we just went with one family of guns with a lot of common parts for the whole requirement like:

ACE 22/23: Carbine requirement (5.56N)
ACE 52: Frontline battle rifle (7.62N)
ACE 32: CI/CT & non-frontline regulars assault rifle (7.62K)

...all from one company PLRS (Punj Llyod-IWI JV) and produced in India.

Wait a second so you are telling me that we could have more modern SIG rifles for a cheaper price which is much more accurate and can field much more accessories but we decided to go back to ak200 series not even ak-15 instead of just buying the SIG series in bulk.

And from what I know the SIG rifle has much greater range and accuracy.

Right??

 

[vampyrbladez]

Wait a second our ak203 have wooden buttstock oh god please tell me it's wrong please.

No. It's still polymer side folding stocks.

 

[Knowitall]

No. It's still polymer side folding stocks.

It looks so much like ak103 even the fab upgrade looks better.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

I just feel terrified when I think about the Kargil War. The Pakistan army from the hill top were firing 7.62*51 ammunition from G3,right? And Indian army was firing from insas. For Indian army to make a kill against the force of gravity. They have to close enough. But for the pakistani forces to make a kill they would have just taken a shot and the ammunition itself along with the gravity would have done the job.

G3 is excellent Rifle and was way superior than so called “Newer” INSAS at that time. G3 can also switch between Semi-Auto and Auto like normal assault rifles of time while INSAS is stuck between Semi-Auto and 3-Rounds Burst. We were very under prepared on the infantry side of Kargil.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It looks so much like ak103 even the fab upgrade looks better.

That's the point................................................

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

Yeah, that's a valid point. So, God forbid. If anything like Kargil happens again then do you think IA will use the Car 816?

I am pretty sure it’s going to be a mix of Rifles not just CAR-816

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

Wait a second our ak203 have wooden buttstock oh god please tell me it's wrong please.

It’s Polymer Buttstock not Wooden bro

 

[Blue Water Navy]

It’s Polymer Buttstock not Wooden bro

I heard that carbines will be replaced by Car 816. Apparently, Govt is looking to procure 360K carbines which I think Caracal will offer to open up a joint venture with MKU to produce them locally.