New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Which Contender`s Rifle has more chances of winning than others?


  • Total voters
    317

Knowitall

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
738
Likes
1,733
Country flag
Honestly i was hoping we would finally get over the ak platform and move over to an at platform but..
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
Amethi factory to get orders for 6.7 lakh Kalashnikovs soon


New Delhi: The rifles factory in Amethi is set to get an order to manufacture a record 6.7 lakh Kalashnikovs soon, with the Army clearing the technical gates and commercial bid likely to be submitted by next month. The Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited joint venture for production of AK 203 assault rifles is likely to get the go-ahead at an acquisition meeting later this month and will move to the next stage of signing of the contract to start manufacturing.

While the factory in Amethi was formally inaugurated in March, orders are yet to be placed as they had to go through the acquisition process of negotiating technical and commercial terms. ET has learnt that as per the plan, Russia will transfer complete technology on the modern assault rifle to India.

In the initial phase, 6.7 lakh rifles will be made for the Army and the number will increase later to at least 7.5 lakh as requirements of other forces are also added to the order. To achieve technology transfer, it is planned that after the first one lakh rifles, all components of the weapon system will be produced in India.

A top Army officer said the joint venture is a good example of how India has achieved technology transfer through planned acquisitions. The joint venture to produce Kalashnikov rifles has been described as the ‘fastest’ created by Russia for an Indian venture. The factory has already started getting functional with the supply of equipment to manufacture weapons and in an exception, a serving Major General of the Army has been tasked to head it.

The project is expected to produce AK 203 rifles that will cost close to $1000 each.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...cial&utm_campaign=socialsharebuttons&from=mdr
Let's not elude ourselves to the facts of the AK-203 deal though.

This isn't about receiving ToT for Kalashnikov design. We already knew how to reproduce the AK design just fine (Ishapore's Ghaatak and Trichy's TAR are examples). And the AK-203 is not the AK-15, as in it doesn't have any major differences to the legacy AK design, the improvements made are functional, but easily doable on Ghaatak/TAR as well (provided OFB could be a bit more proactive and keep up with the times).

So tech-wise there's nothing in this deal that justifies spending $500 worth of forex per rifle (adds up to about $335 million going into Russia's pocket over the course of the 670,000 production run) if we assume a 50% or close to 50% stake in IRRPL for Kalashnikov/Rosoboronexport.

This deal is simply about keeping both the Russians and the OFB happy with one move. That's all.

But for this money, we could have gotten away with a much much better weapon platform from the West or Israel. Imagine the sheer sums of money we could have saved if we just went with one family of guns with a lot of common parts for the whole requirement like:

ACE 22/23: Carbine requirement (5.56N)
ACE 52: Frontline battle rifle (7.62N)
ACE 32: CI/CT & non-frontline regulars assault rifle (7.62K)

...all from one company PLRS (Punj Llyod-IWI JV) and produced in India.
 

piKacHHu

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
168
Likes
475
Country flag
Let's not elude ourselves to the facts of the AK-203 deal though.

This isn't about receiving ToT for Kalashnikov design. We already knew how to reproduce the AK design just fine (Ishapore's Ghaatak and Trichy's TAR are examples). And the AK-203 is not the AK-15, as in it doesn't have any major differences to the legacy AK design, the improvements made are functional, but easily doable on Ghaatak/TAR as well (provided OFB could be a bit more proactive and keep up with the times).

So tech-wise there's nothing in this deal that justifies spending $500 worth of forex per rifle (adds up to about $335 million going into Russia's pocket over the course of the 670,000 production run) if we assume a 50% or close to 50% stake in IRRPL for Kalashnikov/Rosoboronexport.

This deal is simply about keeping both the Russians and the OFB happy with one move. That's all.

But for this money, we could have gotten away with a much much better weapon platform from the West or Israel. Imagine the sheer sums of money we could have saved if we just went with one family of guns with a lot of common parts for the whole requirement like:

ACE 22/23: Carbine requirement (5.56N)
ACE 52: Frontline battle rifle (7.62N)
ACE 32: CI/CT & non-frontline regulars assault rifle (7.62K)

...all from one company PLRS (Punj Llyod-IWI JV) and produced in India.
True indeed! What appears to be a innocuous deal for replacing standard issue INSAS/SLR of non-frontline troops is proving to be a major armament change at lowest level of IA. The way they are proposing absurd idea of replacing sterling with short barrel AK 203 is a solid proof that they are slowly consolidating their position as the biggest small arms supplier to IA. Provided that the OFB has got MHA as their captive market where else the excess AK 203 will get absorbed? Moreover, we are introducing SIGs with entirely different design philosophy to our infantry. It makes me wonder how we are transitioning from a single hodgepodge INSAS to a hodgepodge of multiple service rifles of different calibre and design model. Only time will tell which option was the worst one!!
 

Holy Triad

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
2,557
Likes
16,073
Country flag
Any idea why Indian Army went for AK-203 and not AK-15 ?
Imo, per unit cost is the primary factor,
Ak12/15 designing went on for few years,where it took few drastic turns(design wise) along the way...
Here are earlier variants...





Now it looks like this...





Just look at the vickers video which was posted 3 yrs before...


The earlier design featured western style fire selector,non reciprocating charging handle etc...
But now,they thrown away the older prototypes and fell back on relatively older design(with handful of minor changes).

These r&d flip flops,do cost pretty penny and them want to "charge" it on per unit cost.


Tid bit: idk how many of you noticed,traditional rear sight post was entirely removed in the earlier prototypes but restored in the final variant with modifications. New one is slimmer and sleeker(now just retains the dust cover since rear iron sight is moved to the dust cover)

Traditional sight post




Ak12/15

 

Attachments

Last edited:

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
6,948
Likes
8,488
Country flag
Russia to speed up co-production of AK-203 assault rifles
Russia has agreed to hasten the co-production process of AK-203 assault rifles with India during Rajnath Singh`s maiden visit to the country as Defence Minister, officials said here on Wednesday. India and Russia had entered into a deal in February this year to jointly manufacture 7.5 lakh AK-203 rifles, which are yet to be produced. Singh is on a three-day official visit to Russia where he met the country`s Defence Minister General Sergey Shoigu on Wednesday at the 19th India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military and Military Technical Cooperation meeting in Moscow. “Our partnership with Russia will give a major boost to @makeinindia initiative. Received Strong support from Defense Minister Shoigu for @DefExpoIndia 2020. I also welcome the strong Russian support for early operationalisation of Kalashnikov Joint Venture,” tweeted Singh. India had entered into an Inter-Governmental Agreement with Russia in February 2019 to set up a joint venture for co-production of 7.5 lakh AK-203 assault rifles, which will primarily be handed over to Indian Army troops in the border and insurgency-hit areas to replace the unreliable home-made INSAS rifles. The state-run Ordnance Factory Korwa in Amethi district of Uttar Pradesh has been selected as the joint venture partner with a 50.5 per cent equity stake for co-production of the AK-203 along with Russian firms. Production of the rifles will take place in five phases with the indigenous content planned to be increased from 5 to 15 per cent in Phase I to 100 per cent in the fifth and final phase during which the bulk of the rifles will be produced. “The Russian side affirmed its readiness to operationalise the joint venture Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited for the manufacture of world class Kalashnikov AK 203 rifles in India at the earliest,” said a statement released by the Defence Ministry. During the meet, General Shoigu underlined Moscow`s commitment to extend all possible support to enhance India`s defence capabilities, including cooperation in advance and cutting-edge technology. The Russian Defence Minister assured Rajnath Singh of robust participation of the country`s defence firms in DefExpo 2020 which is scheduled to be held in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh in February 2020. “Shri Rajnath Singh emphasised that the special and privileged strategic partnership between the two countries was further strengthened following the Vladivostok Summit in September 2019. He highlighted the importance of the Inter-Governmental Agreement on manufacturing of spares, components and aggregates in India through joint ventures that would reduce cost, timelines of supply and result in progressive indigenisation,” the statement further said. As per officials, Singh held an in-depth discussion on a range of international issues of common concern with his Russian counterpart General Shoigu who also briefed about the Russian operations in Syria. The Russian side reaffirmed its strong support to India in the field of counter-terrorism and stated that it accords priority to New Delhi`s security interests in the region. The two defence ministers reviewed progress of the two working groups on Military and Military Technical Cooperation. It was agreed that the forthcoming Tri-Service Indra Exercises will be a major milestone in military cooperation between the two countries. Russia affirmed that they would be deputing an officer for the prestigious National Defence College course in New Delhi from the academic year commencing in 2020. India and Russia directed their respective teams to work closely for early conclusion of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Agreement on Reciprocal Logistics Support. Reciprocating an invitation, Rajnath Singh assured that an Indian military contingent will participate in the Army Parade of Russia on the occasion of the 75th anniversary of the victory in World War II. Singh will travel to St Petersburg on his third and final day in Russia on Thursday where he is likely to visit a few defence manufacturing facilities.
https://idrw.org/russia-to-speed-up-co-production-of-ak-203-assault-rifles/#more-214698
 

Prashant12

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
2,984
Likes
14,444
Country flag
ARMY TO SIGN MOU FOR AK-203 ASSAULT RIFLES IN A MONTH




The rifles will be manufactured by the Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited at Korwa in Uttar Pradesh. They are to be manufactured locally by an Indo-Russian joint venture

The Army is likely to sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in a month for the procurement of over 7.5 lakh AK-203 assault rifles, which are to be manufactured locally by an India-Russia joint venture (JV), a Defence source said.

“About 1 lakh rifles will come directly from Russia and the remaining will be manufactured by the JV in India. The MoU should be signed in a month,” a Defence official said.
Inter-Governmental Agreement

The rifles will be manufactured by the Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited (IRRPL) at Korwa in Uttar Pradesh. The facility is being set up between the Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) from the Indian side, and Rosoboron Exports and Kalashnikov on the Russian side. The OFB owns 50.5% equity and Russian side holds the remaining 49.5%. The JV was formed following the Inter-governmental Agreement between India and Russia in February 2019.



To have oversight over the process and ensure timely deliveries, the Army has appointed Major General Sanjeev Senger as the Chief Executive Officer of IRRPL. Officials said the JV has obtained all the requisite licences for production and export. The Ministry of Defence has already floated a Request For Proposal (RFP) to the JV for the supply of 6.71 lakh rifles.

Reviewing the operationalisation of the project few months back, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had stressed on the need “for 100% indigenisation of the rifle as per the project understanding, and focusing on the export of the rifles from IRRPL to other friendly countries”.
Other Small Arms

In addition to the AK-203, the Army recently began inducting the first batch of 10,000 SIG-716 assault rifles. Troops engaged in counter insurgency operations in the Army’s Northern Command have started receiving these rifles, sources said. The rifles are being procured under a contract signed in February 2019 with Sig Sauer of the U.S. for 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles worth over ₹700 crore.

The initial idea was to equip the entire Army with the SIG-716, one officer said. He added that given the huge cost, it was decided that the rifles would be provided to frontline troops, while the remaining forces can be equipped with AK-203 rifles. “It was decided based on the requirement,” he stated.
Replacing INSAS

The Army has been looking to replace the indigenous INSAS (Indian National Small Arms System) rifles in use with a modern rifle. The MoD had approved the procurement in January 2018 through the Fast Track Procurement route. Of the 72,400 rifles, 66,400 are for the Army, 2,000 for the Navy and 4,000 for the Air Force. The entire quantity is expected to be delivered within 12 months from the date of signing the contract.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2020/01/army-to-sign-mou-for-ak-203-assault.html
 

Wisemarko

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
556
Likes
783
Country flag
The initial idea was to equip the entire Army with the SIG-716
Interesting. Entire army with 7.62×51mm NATO is unlikely. That means 20 round mags, higher recoil and compromised CQB.

I think combination of AKs and SIG is great.
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
That means 20 round mags, higher recoil and compromised CQB.
Two of these drawbacks are true with regard to the existing issue service rifle (INSAS) as well.

In terms of actual usability, the SIG is actually an upgrade over the INSAS. It's more compact length-wise, the rounds have a lot more stopping power, is infinitely more adaptable thanks to the Rails & M-LOK, and the option of full-auto fire is available in a given situation (probably won't hit shit firing for effect but useful to suppress).

Sure, a 5.56 weapon (or AK for that matter) is definitely easier on the soldier especially in a counter-insurgency setting, but the drawbacks you went over are far more relevant to a soldier who's switching over from a M4 carbine platform to an AR-10 platform. What's happening here is that soldiers are gonna be switching over from an M16A2-type platform (INSAS) to an AR-10.

Yes the step-up in calibre will be felt for those who're replacing their current INSAS/AKs with 716s, but in terms of actual functionality, at least as far as the INSAS users go, this is a tremendous upgrade.

In addition to the AK-203, the Army recently began inducting the first batch of 10,000 SIG-716 assault rifles. Troops engaged in counter insurgency operations in the Army’s Northern Command have started receiving these rifles, sources said.
This is incorrect. The rifles were inducted into Northern Command yes, but for use by units manning the LoC and their relevant Ghatak teams etc. and not by units in counter-insurgency (like RR).

RR will receive AK-203s (whenever they come) as a direct replacement for their existing older AKs.
 
Last edited:

abhay rajput

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
606
Likes
1,260
Country flag
Two of these drawbacks are true with regard to the existing issue service rifle (INSAS) as well.

In terms of actual usability, the SIG is actually an upgrade over the INSAS. It's more compact length-wise, the rounds have a lot more stopping power, is infinitely more adaptable thanks to the Rails & M-LOK, and the option of full-auto fire is available in a given situation (probably won't hit shit firing for effect but useful to suppress).

Sure, a 5.56 weapon (or AK for that matter) is definitely easier on the soldier especially in a counter-insurgency setting, but the drawbacks you went over are far more relevant to a soldier who's switching over from a M4 carbine platform to an AR-10 platform. What's happening here is that soldiers are gonna be switching over from an M16A2-type platform (INSAS) to an AR-10.

Yes the step-up in calibre will be felt for those who're replacing their current INSAS/AKs with 716s, but in terms of actual functionality, at least as far as the INSAS users go, this is a tremendous upgrade.



This is incorrect. The rifles were inducted into Northern Command yes, but for use by units manning the LoC and their relevant Ghatak teams etc. and not by units in counter-insurgency (like RR).

RR will receive AK-203s (whenever they come) as a direct replacement for their existing older AKs.
I have fired insas, and the only thing I liked about that rifle is it's accuracy. Insas is and will be more accurate than ak203. Other than that it's shit.
What about the price of Sig saucer , .??
 
Last edited:

Hari Sud

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,718
Likes
2,114
Country flag
My guess is that 7.62x51 rifle selection by the Army for front line soldiers on LOC is most likely to put the Pakistani posts and their movements within the rifle range. The Sig rifle is effective to 400 to 500 yards which INSAS and AK type rifle were not able to reach. The whole idea is also psychological and let the Pakistani army know that a better rifle in Indian possession will outsmart their G3 rifle which is an antique anyway.

It is now advantage india.
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
I have fired insas, and the only thing I liked about that rifle is it's accuracy. Insas is and will be more accurate than ak203. Other than that it's shit.
Forget INSAS, it's dead now. And no one can bring it back to life as far as Army usage goes.

What about the price of Sig saucer , .??
Was bid at $990 per piece in the competitive tender. An incredible discount over the retail price of the same (which is in the $2,100-2,300 range). And SIG Sauer is offering a follow-up deal for up to 50% the quantity of the original deal, at the same price. So we can buy another 36,200 rifles for the same $990 quote.

In comparison, there isn't any apparent bulk discount in the AK-203 deal thanks to them being nominated by GoI instead of a competitive tender. We'll be getting AK-203s at approx $1,000 per piece...which is pretty much the same as the price for buying a proper Russian-made AK like Saiga in the US retail market.
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
How come not even a single pic of IA's SIGs?
Army is not in the business of releasing them. ADG-PI doesn't consider such things as worthy/necessary to inform the public about.

Even the Victrix sniper rifles which have been serving for quite a while now, still have seen only low-quality images from ad-hoc/third party sources.

PR isn't one of our strong suits.
 

Hari Sud

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,718
Likes
2,114
Country flag
Forget INSAS, it's dead now. And no one can bring it back to life as far as Army usage goes.



Was bid at $990 per piece in the competitive tender. An incredible discount over the retail price of the same (which is in the $2,100-2,300 range). And SIG Sauer is offering a follow-up deal for up to 50% the quantity of the original deal, at the same price. So we can buy another 36,200 rifles for the same $990 quote.

In comparison, there isn't any apparent bulk discount in the AK-203 deal thanks to them being nominated by GoI instead of a competitive tender. We'll be getting AK-203s at approx $1,000 per piece...which is pretty much the same as the price for buying a proper Russian-made AK like Saiga in the US retail market.

Published reports earlier said that AK-203 is priced under $500 and if you upgrade to the same level as Russian Special forces then price jumps up $400 to $500 for a telescope, pointer light, muzzle break and possible under barrel launcher.

The only thing great about Sig rifle is that it is precisely machined and new technology of the receiver and higher shooting range puts it much ahead of others. The value of AK rifles is that it works every time, all the time. It is less precisely machined and possibly stamped receiver but its reliability puts it way ahead of others.
 

rone

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Messages
568
Likes
1,119
Country flag
Published reports earlier said that AK-203 is priced under $500 and if you upgrade to the same level as Russian Special forces then price jumps up $400 to $500 for a telescope, pointer light, muzzle break and possible under barrel launcher.

The only thing great about Sig rifle is that it is precisely machined and new technology of the receiver and higher shooting range puts it much ahead of others. The value of AK rifles is that it works every time, all the time. It is less precisely machined and possibly stamped receiver but its reliability puts it way ahead of others.
Ak 203 coming to IA don't have sights in all they are add-on only foldable but stock and pistol grip all other are add-on not standard suit out, the mil ak 203 cost 850$ per piece the 1000$ price come becoz of the 50 bullet mag and new foldable but stock
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
Published reports earlier said that AK-203 is priced under $500
Please provide the said reports.

The current production version of INSAS rifle (1B1) is procured by the Army for approx Rs. 55k per ($760+) per piece. State Police units have reportedly bought INSAS variants (not 1C, that's not in production) for well over $1,000...all thanks to overhead charges and poor management on part of OFB (not to mention, captive market).

Offering AK-203 for less than $500 is frankly unbelievable.

On the other hand there are multiple sources saying the price is in neighbourhood of $1,000. Here's one:

https://theprint.in/defence/amethi-...-203-rifles-this-year-for-indian-army/260562/

The only thing great about Sig rifle is that it is precisely machined and new technology of the receiver and higher shooting range puts it much ahead of others. The value of AK rifles is that it works every time, all the time. It is less precisely machined and possibly stamped receiver but its reliability puts it way ahead of others.
Not exactly.

A modern piston-driven AR-15/AR-10 from a reputed manufacturer is equally good if not better than any AK in such metrics as Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) or Stoppages (MRBS), which form part of selection criteria when a competent body (like an Army evaluation team) conducts competitive trials.

So 'reliability' is not the correct word.

The advantage of AK is that it is generally easier to recover from a given malfunction (especially a Type-2/3/4) without necessarily taking the gun to the armourer's table. Note that even this is a generalization, and there are always exceptions.
 

Hari Sud

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
1,718
Likes
2,114
Country flag
Please provide the said reports.

The current production version of INSAS rifle (1B1) is procured by the Army for approx Rs. 55k per ($760+) per piece. State Police units have reportedly bought INSAS variants (not 1C, that's not in production) for well over $1,000...all thanks to overhead charges and poor management on part of OFB (not to mention, captive market).

Offering AK-203 for less than $500 is frankly unbelievable.

On the other hand there are multiple sources saying the price is in neighbourhood of $1,000. Here's one:

https://theprint.in/defence/amethi-...-203-rifles-this-year-for-indian-army/260562/



Not exactly.

A modern piston-driven AR-15/AR-10 from a reputed manufacturer is equally good if not better than any AK in such metrics as Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) or Stoppages (MRBS), which form part of selection criteria when a competent body (like an Army evaluation team) conducts competitive trials.

So 'reliability' is not the correct word.

The advantage of AK is that it is generally easier to recover from a given malfunction (especially a Type-2/3/4) without necessarily taking the gun to the armourer's table. Note that even this is a generalization, and there are always exceptions.

i will post the reference when i find it, it is a year old , but i do not believe your The Print reference. it is anti government Luytenite and unreliable.

Again if both guns are priced the same then no need to order 203.
 

Gessler

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
1,312
Likes
3,324
Country flag
i will post the reference when i find it, it is a year old , but i do not believe your The Print reference. it is anti government Luytenite and unreliable.
It's a source-based news, hence all reports will quote the same, whether from Print, ET, or even OpIndia which is pro-Right Wing:

https://www.opindia.com/2019/10/ind...lakh-ak-203-assault-rifles-in-amethi-factory/

Again if both guns are priced the same then no need to order 203.
It's not a question of price but of technical requirement and platform familiarity. When OFB-Kalashnikov combine was nominated, the prices of 7.62x51 fast-track tender were still unknown, commercial bids weren't submitted yet.

Secondly, the AK platform in 7.62x39 can never give you the kind of capability 7.62x51 can at ranges beyond 300 meters. With proper optics, the 716 can leverage its round out to 600+ meters with tremendous accuracy and effect which makes it ideal for frontline conventional units.

AK-203 purchase is about getting a weapon that many soldiers can feel at home with (as the platform is already extensively used, production of ammunition doesn't need new infrastructure and a host of other considerations like satisfying OFB lobby and Russian lobby). It was never about getting it cheap otherwise it wouldn't be nominated - we would have gone for competitive evaluation and bidding.
 

likewise1129

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2020
Messages
739
Likes
1,750
Country flag
I am new to the forum so pardon me if I am wrong. I just don't understand the concept where some soldiers will be trained & equipped with AR style rifle and others will be on AK.

And caracal's car 816 is close quarter carbine, sig sauer 716 is battle rifle then what purpose rifle will be this Ak203 which is chambered in 7.62*39?
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top