New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Which Contender`s Rifle has more chances of winning than others?


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Yodha

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Sure buddy, i take it all back... Our soldiers are not some of the worst equipped among its peers around the world, with every defence acquisition being made by visionary legends thinking of decades ahead making India a pioneer in every field.
Never were those decisions impractical or affected by kickbacks & were not ever last minute nor inadequate! Happy?

Again i wasn't shitting on the military but some specific individuals India-special attitude & mentality, so you can put your favourite card back in the deck.
I don't have any cards kid nor I have any favourites. The thing is, before assessing someone or an organisation and fixating things about their character, put yourself in their shoes. If they want to use it without a stock, let them use it. Before speaking about things, you have to put yourself in their shoes(I don't know if you were or are in forces).
 

armyofhind

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Because i was taking about 9mm against 5.56 & 7.62 as carbine calibre for infantry & RR... You kept dragging in SF.

I though it better to just leave you barking.
Diverting the point again. I was talking of SF use of stockless AKs.

Your bullshit has been called out so now your attempts will be to pull facts out of your arse.

Your attempt to quote some obscure opinion piece from a blog, which doesn't even quote a source and speaks of NSG in a derogatory tone from the start shows what your level of knowledge is.



Yes, it does... As jihadis don't have armour & you're talking CQB & SF then even .45 SMGs can be considered. This is exactly the mentality!!!
Oh.. so .45 cal is deadlier than 7.62x39. Lol.
You got issues son. Clear up your basics first.
 

Kchontha

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Is Sig sauer arriving at the front line.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

Anirbann Datta

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Guys pls keep it civil.
AK 203 without stock would be a special purpose gun for special forces and cannot be handled by anyone without special training. Adding low recoil hollow point subsonic rounds (Russia is developing one) with suppressors would make it a perfect assassin's rifle.
Sir, I am a nimble one, just some question arrived in mind--- 1. hollow point/ squash head 2. subsonic 3. + suppressor ( though it might increase the bullet travel, but don't think it will be some thing noticeable). after incorporating all these will the bullet be still able to pass lvl-II/++ ceremic/steel armor at point blank to 50~70 m?
just thoughts, for I am no expert. Please enlighten in this area little more, Thanks.
 

Holy Triad

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Sir, I am a nimble one, just some question arrived in mind--- 1. hollow point/ squash head 2. subsonic 3. + suppressor ( though it might increase the bullet travel, but don't think it will be some thing noticeable). after incorporating all these will the bullet be still able to pass lvl-II/++ ceremic/steel armor at point blank to 50~70 m?
just thoughts, for I am no expert. Please enlighten in this area little more, Thanks.
Any calibre, within 100mts, especially 70mts, easily penetrate level 2 armors. Even if the armor stop the bullet, shock wave alone cause possible internal bleeding.
 

Kay

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Sir, I am a nimble one, just some question arrived in mind--- 1. hollow point/ squash head 2. subsonic 3. + suppressor ( though it might increase the bullet travel, but don't think it will be some thing noticeable). after incorporating all these will the bullet be still able to pass lvl-II/++ ceremic/steel armor at point blank to 50~70 m?
just thoughts, for I am no expert. Please enlighten in this area little more, Thanks.
No idea. The Russians are building a subsonic AK round is all I know. If these AKs are to be used without butts hidden in clothes, then their role would be assassination at close range, possibly on soft targets.
 

Gessler

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Is Sig sauer arriving at the front line.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Yes, first deliveries expected within next few months.

Sir, I am a nimble one, just some question arrived in mind--- 1. hollow point/ squash head 2. subsonic 3. + suppressor ( though it might increase the bullet travel, but don't think it will be some thing noticeable). after incorporating all these will the bullet be still able to pass lvl-II/++ ceremic/steel armor at point blank to 50~70 m?
just thoughts, for I am no expert. Please enlighten in this area little more, Thanks.
There is nothing to indicate there will be subsonic ammo and/or suppressors to be used in conjunction with the stock-less AK. A suppressor would increase the length of the weapon considerably, not a wise choice when concealment is key.

No idea. The Russians are building a subsonic AK round is all I know.
There is nothing special about subsonic rounds. Any factory that produces normal (supersonic) 7.62x39mm ammunition (we have many of those in the country) can produce subsonic versions as well.

All you have to do is reduce the amount of powder filling in the cartridge.

If these AKs are to be used without butts hidden in clothes, then their role would be assassination at close range, possibly on soft targets.
"Assassination" is not the word. If at all such role is to be conducted against possible separatist leaders who are marked by the Intel agencies for elimination, then it is performed by Special Forces personnel, and no way they announce their plans to use a stock-less AK in such ops on the public domain.

The stock-less AKs have three possible use-cases:

1) Close protection of important person(s).
2) Discreet security of location/event.
3) Laying ambushes at suspected terrorist meet sites.

In any of those use-cases, there is absolutely no need for a suppressed weapon.
 

Kay

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Yes, first deliveries expected within next few months.



There is nothing to indicate there will be subsonic ammo and/or suppressors to be used in conjunction with the stock-less AK. A suppressor would increase the length of the weapon considerably, not a wise choice when concealment is key.



There is nothing special about subsonic rounds. Any factory that produces normal (supersonic) 7.62x39mm ammunition (we have many of those in the country) can produce subsonic versions as well.

All you have to do is reduce the amount of powder filling in the cartridge.



"Assassination" is not the word. If at all such role is to be conducted against possible separatist leaders who are marked by the Intel agencies for elimination, then it is performed by Special Forces personnel, and no way they announce their plans to use a stock-less AK in such ops on the public domain.

The stock-less AKs have three possible use-cases:

1) Close protection of important person(s).
2) Discreet security of location/event.
3) Laying ambushes at suspected terrorist meet sites.

In any of those use-cases, there is absolutely no need for a suppressed weapon.
Subsonic rounds have to be heavier than normal bullets. Also, 9mm subsonic rounds are common, but subsonic rounds for AK are not.
Agree that "assassination" does not sound nice. "Close range discreet infiltration operations" it is then.
 

Gessler

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Subsonic rounds have to be heavier than normal bullets.
Not necessarily. Unless one is going to create truly specialized ammo for specialist applications - but that is akin to making an Armor Piercing variant, an Incendiary variant etc.

A regular subsonic load is pretty basic stuff. With a reloading press, a die set and some scales, one can make it at home in fact.

Many hand-loaders in the US civilian community make home-made subsonic loads out of existing supersonic loads for all calibres.

Also, 9mm subsonic rounds are common, but subsonic rounds for AK are not.
In the retail market yes, but that's more to do with the lack of a market for such rounds rather than lack of any technological feat needed to create subsonic AK rounds - the process is no different from creating a subsonic 5.56 round, or any other calibre for that matter.

The most suppressed rounds in the US market (and the world) are the 5.56x45/.223, the 7.62x51/.308, the .300 BLK and the various pistol calibre rounds. Naturally that is where most of the manufacturers are focused.
 

Vorschlaghammer

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The popular term is "wetwork" I believe.

Proven platforms like Val/Vintorez/Vykhlops are probably better suited for serious wetwork.
 

sorcerer

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Australia wants to sell India its next CQB rifle — here’s what they’re offering

Since 1989, the Australian Army has used a domestically produced version of Steyr Arms’ Armee-Universal-Gewehr (Universal Army Rifle, or AUG), officially known as the F88 Austeyr, as its standard-issue service weapon.

A joint partnership between Thales Australia and the Kalyani Group now plans on offering the Indian military an export version of the F88 for the country’s new carbine requirement.

India is currently in the midst of a massive rearmament program that will see its army phase out older weaponry in favor of a combination of newer westernized hardware, popular with NATO member states, as well as Indian-designed and produced guns and kit.

Gear Scout earlier reported that India would be buying 72,400 SIG716 battle rifles and an unknown number of Caracal CAR816 carbines as part of a $503 million contract. Later on, The Firearms Blog reported that the expected tally of CAR816s was just around 95,000.

The F88 export variant, dubbed the F90, was originally offered as a competitor to the CAR816, but will now be entered into a separated competition geared towards supplying the Indian Army with a new closer quarters battle (CQB) carbine.


The F90 with an optional SL40 40mm grenade launcher (Photo Lithgow Arms)
According to the solicitation posted by the Indian Ministry of Defence, the CQB carbine needs to be chambered in 5.56x45 mm NATO, must possess a minimum effective range of 200 meters (218 yards), and has a 5 Minute Of Angle accuracy or better, out of the box.

Thales Australia and the Kalyani Group hope that the F90 will be exactly what the Indian military is looking for. Built under license from Steyr by Lithgow Arms, the F90 is designed to be highly modular and can field a 40 mm SL40 under-barrel grenade launcher as well as a slew of other accessories and optics on its Picatinny rails.

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The F90 comes with three barrel lengths -- 360 mm, 407 mm and 508 mm. Thanks to its bullpup layout, the maximum length of the gun with its longest barrel is 802 mm. For a comparison, the M4 carbine comes in at 840 mm with its standard 370 mm barrel. A two-stage trigger gives the operator the ability to fire in either a semi-automatic mode with the first stage of the pull, or a 3-round burst with the second stage.


The F90 can fit a number of optics on its upper rail, including holographic and magnified sights (Photo Lithgow Arms)
A considerable part of the Australian decision to buy and field the original Steyr AUG as the F88 was the fact that it’s a bullpup rifle, meaning that the receiver, firing mechanism and magazine were located behind the pistol grip and trigger. This allows for a longer barrel to be used on a more compact frame, making the gun far more maneuverable and accurate.

As revolutionary as the F88 may have been at the time of its adoption by the Australian Army, it hasn’t exactly gone without criticism, especially from Australian special operations units.

In fact, the rifle was so poorly received by the country’s elite Special Air Service Regiment, modeled after the UK’s top-tier SAS, that the unit opted to buy more M4 carbines and limit their usage of the F88.


Special operators found themselves tangling with a rifle that wasn’t ergonomically suited towards being comfortably wielded by an end user kitted out with body armor, thanks to the F88′s oversized butt stock.

Additionally, magazine changes often pried away the user’s eyes from the fight due to the awkward positioning of the mag well.


These issues could potentially pose a threat to the F90′s candidacy. However, should the F90 be successful, the Indian government plans to buy over 360,000 rifles, all of which would hypothetically be produced in Indian factories.

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...ts-next-cqb-rifle-heres-what-theyre-offering/

Nothing doing..
Its australia and they are assholes of china!
 

Aaj ka hero

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Australia wants to sell India its next CQB rifle — here’s what they’re offering

Since 1989, the Australian Army has used a domestically produced version of Steyr Arms’ Armee-Universal-Gewehr (Universal Army Rifle, or AUG), officially known as the F88 Austeyr, as its standard-issue service weapon.

A joint partnership between Thales Australia and the Kalyani Group now plans on offering the Indian military an export version of the F88 for the country’s new carbine requirement.

India is currently in the midst of a massive rearmament program that will see its army phase out older weaponry in favor of a combination of newer westernized hardware, popular with NATO member states, as well as Indian-designed and produced guns and kit.

Gear Scout earlier reported that India would be buying 72,400 SIG716 battle rifles and an unknown number of Caracal CAR816 carbines as part of a $503 million contract. Later on, The Firearms Blog reported that the expected tally of CAR816s was just around 95,000.

The F88 export variant, dubbed the F90, was originally offered as a competitor to the CAR816, but will now be entered into a separated competition geared towards supplying the Indian Army with a new closer quarters battle (CQB) carbine.


The F90 with an optional SL40 40mm grenade launcher (Photo Lithgow Arms)
According to the solicitation posted by the Indian Ministry of Defence, the CQB carbine needs to be chambered in 5.56x45 mm NATO, must possess a minimum effective range of 200 meters (218 yards), and has a 5 Minute Of Angle accuracy or better, out of the box.

Thales Australia and the Kalyani Group hope that the F90 will be exactly what the Indian military is looking for. Built under license from Steyr by Lithgow Arms, the F90 is designed to be highly modular and can field a 40 mm SL40 under-barrel grenade launcher as well as a slew of other accessories and optics on its Picatinny rails.

Sign up for GearScout Weekly
Get your fill of tactical coolness with guns, gear, bullets and moto content each week.

The F90 comes with three barrel lengths -- 360 mm, 407 mm and 508 mm. Thanks to its bullpup layout, the maximum length of the gun with its longest barrel is 802 mm. For a comparison, the M4 carbine comes in at 840 mm with its standard 370 mm barrel. A two-stage trigger gives the operator the ability to fire in either a semi-automatic mode with the first stage of the pull, or a 3-round burst with the second stage.


The F90 can fit a number of optics on its upper rail, including holographic and magnified sights (Photo Lithgow Arms)
A considerable part of the Australian decision to buy and field the original Steyr AUG as the F88 was the fact that it’s a bullpup rifle, meaning that the receiver, firing mechanism and magazine were located behind the pistol grip and trigger. This allows for a longer barrel to be used on a more compact frame, making the gun far more maneuverable and accurate.

As revolutionary as the F88 may have been at the time of its adoption by the Australian Army, it hasn’t exactly gone without criticism, especially from Australian special operations units.

In fact, the rifle was so poorly received by the country’s elite Special Air Service Regiment, modeled after the UK’s top-tier SAS, that the unit opted to buy more M4 carbines and limit their usage of the F88.


Special operators found themselves tangling with a rifle that wasn’t ergonomically suited towards being comfortably wielded by an end user kitted out with body armor, thanks to the F88′s oversized butt stock.

Additionally, magazine changes often pried away the user’s eyes from the fight due to the awkward positioning of the mag well.


These issues could potentially pose a threat to the F90′s candidacy. However, should the F90 be successful, the Indian government plans to buy over 360,000 rifles, all of which would hypothetically be produced in Indian factories.

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...ts-next-cqb-rifle-heres-what-theyre-offering/

Nothing doing..
Its australia and they are assholes of china!
I say sir don't worry that day is not far WHEN PAKISTANIS(by no mean I am pegging pakistan to Australia here) TOO WILL WANT TO SELL US and import lobbyists will say "well this weapon system is good".
 

Hari Sud

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UAE built and German designed CQB is better and $1100 is better in every respect.
 

Gessler

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UAE built and German designed CQB is better and $1100 is better in every respect.
Absolutely.

55c0f6e107a92c09aa538f0914b6dbe6.jpg


EDIT:

The CAR-816 is my No.1 preference for the carbine MII deal. If not for anything else, then simply because of commonality's sake. Even qualitatively, if it was good enough in the FTP deal, it's good enough now.

Second preference would be the SIG 516. With frontline infantry toting the 716, this rifle again makes a lot of sense commonality-wise, the 516 shares a lot of components with its big brother. Again, it's also a gas piston AR-15 just like the Caracal one, plus is already used by a lot of SF units in the world. There are however still many components which any & all modern AR-15s can use interchangeably.

Either way, I certainly would prefer a conventional rifle layout for this role. Bullpup rifles are great, don't get me wrong...but we're talking about usage by regulars here, they don't get the kind of range time or kill house courses that SFs can put in. And Bullpups take quite some getting used to.
 
Last edited:

aarav

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If the Caracal deal was to happen it would have happened like Sig 716 and now decision would be pending till next govt forms ,govt is also looking ak203 as having a role in CQB category as well
 

samsaptaka

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Why is JVPC not even being considered ?
 

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