New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[fire starter]

I am new to the forum so pardon me if I am wrong. I just don't understand the concept where some soldiers will be trained & equipped with AR style rifle and others will be on AK.

And caracal's car 816 is close quarter carbine, sig sauer 716 is battle rifle then what purpose rifle will be this Ak203 which is chambered in 7.62*39?

it will be used as regular rifle replacing insas from infantry .more specifically as carbine since ranges of both the ak203 and car 816 are same.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

it will be used as regular rifle replacing insas from infantry .more specifically as carbine since ranges of both the ak203 and car 816 are same.

ak 203 and car 816 both have different ranges. But they are chambered in two different kind of ammunition?

Okay quick question. So basically from I what heard that 7.62*39 have a better kill rate than insas which is 5.56*45. So why did the armed forces inducted insas in the first place which chambers a round that can only injure the enemy and not kill it?

 

[Nebula]

ak 203 and car 816 both have different ranges. But they are chambered in two different kind of ammunition?

Okay quick question. So basically from I what heard that 7.62*39 have a better kill rate than insas which is 5.56*45. So why did the armed forces inducted insas in the first place which chambers a round that can only injure the enemy and not kill it?

At that time the 5.56 rifle was presumed to be lighter and has less recoil. In effect the firing accuracy will be better. The 5.56 will be used by regular infantry where the battle rifle will be used in conventional war and we will be facing regular infantry. Considering our terrain it is unlikely that we will see our enemy in close proximity (Assumption). So light weight rifle with good accuracy was preferred.

The counter insurgency units facing terrorists prefer 7.62 because they want to kill tango on fist strike, because they are pigs and has to be killed.

Now we are changing to 7.62 battle rifle because Insas design was neither light weight nor reliable and secondly accuracy and weight is now similar for 5.56 and 7.62. There may be more reasons, just some info from my part.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

I am new to the forum so pardon me if I am wrong. I just don't understand the concept where some soldiers will be trained & equipped with AR style rifle and others will be on AK.

And caracal's car 816 is close quarter carbine, sig sauer 716 is battle rifle then what purpose rifle will be this Ak203 which is chambered in 7.62*39?

AK-203 and AK-103 will be for Mainline Troops meanwhile SIG-716 and CAR-816 will be for Troops Stationed on the frontlines like Troops deployed on the LOC and RR Troops fighting the Islamic Terrorist Insurgency funded by the Porkis in J&K UT and also welcome to the Indian Defense Forum my Friend.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

AK-203 and AK-103 will be for Mainline Troops meanwhile SIG-716 and CAR-816 will be for Troops Stationed on the frontlines like Troops deployed on the LOC and RR Troops fighting the Islamic Terrorist Insurgency funded by the Porkis in J&K UT and also welcome to the Indian Defense Forum my Friend.

I just feel terrified when I think about the Kargil War. The Pakistan army from the hill top were firing 7.62*51 ammunition from G3,right? And Indian army was firing from insas. For Indian army to make a kill against the force of gravity. They have to close enough. But for the pakistani forces to make a kill they would have just taken a shot and the ammunition itself along with the gravity would have done the job.

 

[Chinmoy]

I just feel terrified when I think about the Kargil War. The Pakistan army from the hill top were firing 7.62*51 ammunition from G3,right? And Indian army was firing from insas. For Indian army to make a kill against the force of gravity. They have to close enough. But for the pakistani forces to make a kill they would have just taken a shot and the ammunition itself along with the gravity would have done the job.

But the INSAS gave the ability to a soldier to carry 30% more ammo, which in itself is a major tactical advantage for an Assaulting army. Especially one who is involved in a mountain warfare scenario.

So comparing two different rounds head one is not a logical approach.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

But the INSAS gave the ability to a soldier to carry 30% more ammo, which in itself is a major tactical advantage for an Assaulting army. Especially one who is involved in a mountain warfare scenario.

So comparing two different rounds head one is not a logical approach.

Yeah, that's a valid point. So, God forbid. If anything like Kargil happens again then do you think IA will use the Car 816?

 

[Chinmoy]

Yeah, that's a valid point. So, God forbid. If anything like Kargil happens again then do you think IA will use the Car 816?

No, it would be SIG 716 and AK-203 in that case. Kargil was not just about INSAS. We did infact used AKM too in there.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

No, it would be SIG 716 and AK-203 in that case. Kargil was not just about INSAS. We did infact used AKM too in there.

Okay, thanks for clearing it. Do you know which telescopic sights are being field by the IA?

 

[Atcjurvin]

Okay, thanks for clearing it. Do you know which telescopic sights are being field by the IA?

Velocity of 5. 56×45 bullet is better than 7. 62×39 since it is lighter.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Velocity of 5. 56×45 bullet is better than 7. 62×39 since it is lighter.

I know its lighter and faster. But I didn't asked that in what you quoted.

 

[Chinmoy]

Okay, thanks for clearing it. Do you know which telescopic sights are being field by the IA?

No idea on that front. Our sights are not something which has been standardized. It is a mix of whatever comes cheap in a segment.

 

[Gessler]

A friend from another forum had got into touch with Vladimir Onokoy (Kalashnikov's guy) and asked few questions about the AK-203 procurement effort:

1. I would like to ask you,on whose direction and why were the changes made on India bound AK 203,visible at defexpo.

2.Were there any formal trials conducted of AK 203 in India.

3.Why Indian delegation opted for AK 203 over AK 15.

4. Will you be transferring the metallurgy under TOT.

5. Is Saudi Arabia opting for production of Russian rifles,if yes,then which model.

6 .Will you be selling rifles to Pakistan also,if yes,then which models.

7. My guess is that Indian side asked for the changes,due to cost issues.Is it right or were there any issues related to rifle ergonomics. Your take on it,have they done the right thing as far as rifle ergonomics is concerned.

8. The railed dust cover on ak 203 is stable and able to hold zero.Will it remain the same few years down in service ,after field abuse and heavy use.

++++

His answers :

1. Changes were requested by Indian side.

2. Trials of 100 series were conducted by me in Ishapor in 2017. 200 series is internally the same.

3. I would advice to ask Indian delegation about it, but I think they made a right choice.

4. No comment

5. No comment

6. No comment

7. It is up to the customer to make decisions based on economic situation . As a shooter, I would certainly prefer a standard 203.

8.So far all the testing did not uncover any issues.

@Unknowncommando 2 @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy

 

[vampyrbladez]

At that time the 5.56 rifle was presumed to be lighter and has less recoil. In effect the firing accuracy will be better. The 5.56 will be used by regular infantry where the battle rifle will be used in conventional war and we will be facing regular infantry. Considering our terrain it is unlikely that we will see our enemy in close proximity (Assumption). So light weight rifle with good accuracy was preferred.

The counter insurgency units facing terrorists prefer 7.62 because they want to kill tango on fist strike, because they are pigs and has to be killed.

Now we are changing to 7.62 battle rifle because Insas design was neither light weight nor reliable and secondly accuracy and weight is now similar for 5.56 and 7.62. There may be more reasons, just some info from my part.

In brief :

AK 203 (7.62x39mm) ; Assault Rifle - Replaces INSAS / AKM variants in service for COIN and Rear Echelon Units. Will be the standard assault rifle for the average Indian Army jawan. Effective upto 300m and can penetrate all Level IIIA and to a decent extent Level IV armor. Decent amount of ammunition can be carried.

Sig 716 G2 (7.62x51mm) ; Battle Rifle - Replaces / complements AKM variants used by Northern and Eastern Command. Essentially a 7.62 mm bullet as per the ogive seated in a 51mm casing. It holds more powder and can engage upto 800 m and penetrate all Level IV armor. Hence it is especially useful for mountain warfare and conventional warfare. Less amount of ammunition can be carried.

CAR 816 CQC (5.56X45mm) ; Close Quarter Carbine - Replaces 9mm Sterling Carbines used by Officers / JCOs / NCOs / Radio Operators / Recoilless Rifle Operator / HMG Crew / Mortar Crew / Artillery Crew / Vehicle (Tanks, IFV, Transport Trucks, Jeeps) Crew / Combat Engineer / Combat Medic / Ghatak Platoon , basically anyone who needs more firepower and less weight to maneuver more quickly or for those whose primary duty is to not actively pursue the enemy but to support those who do just that. Effective upto 500m and can penetrate all Level IIIA armor. Most amount of ammunition can be carried.

 

[vampyrbladez]

The AK 200 series rifles for the Russian National Guard have the older hand-grip but the new ergonomic stock and thumb shelf on the selector lever.

Russian National Guard AK 203

Indian Production Variant AK 203

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...dian-cqb-carbine-from-ordnance-factory-board/

 

[rkhanna]

CAR 816 CQC (5.56X45mm) ; Close Quarter Carbine - Replaces 9mm Sterling Carbines used by Officers / JCOs / NCOs / Radio Operators / Recoilless Rifle Operator / HMG Crew / Mortar Crew / Artillery Crew / Vehicle (Tanks, IFV, Transport Trucks, Jeeps) Crew / Combat Engineer / Combat Medic / Ghatak Platoon , basically anyone who needs more firepower and less weight to maneuver more quickly or for those whose primary duty is to not actively pursue the enemy but to support those who do just that. Effective upto 500m and can penetrate all Level IIIA armor. Most amount of ammunition can be carried.

I am not so sure the CAR816 deal is going through. Which would be a crying shame. the CAR and SIGS with shorter barrel lenghts should also become the standard rifles of out SOF units. The TAVORS should be given to MOUT and Tank/Helicopter Crews.

 

[abingdonboy]

The AK 200 series rifles for the Russian National Guard have the older hand-grip but the new ergonomic stock and thumb shelf on the selector lever.

View attachment 43348
View attachment 43349
View attachment 43347
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Russian National Guard AK 203

Indian Production Variant AK 203

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...dian-cqb-carbine-from-ordnance-factory-board/

Every time I will see this shitty downgraded 203 in IA soldiers' hands for the next 30+ years it will p!ss me off. Already this deal was needless but the ret@rds in IA do what they do best and fked it up more with their backwards outdated mindsets. Why they would ask for these downgrades is utterly out of my comprehension but then these are the same clowns that ask for Bayonet mounts on the JVPC.



Just hope this deal falls through because Russians are being boneheads as usual. Indians can't save themselves.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Dont understand why we would have wooden buttstock over adjustable one.

 

[Mangal]

This deal also indicates how the top hierarchy of IA treats normal jawans of Army.

 

[ezsasa]

Dont understand why we would have wooden buttstock over adjustable one.

Probably because you can’t smash faces with adjustable stock.

DHAVA position.

Kidding.. or am I?