MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[Armand2REP]

Based on everything that has come out, this original report appears to be correct.


Can't believe we are still waiting for a shortlist this long after the technical evaluation.

 

[Parthy]

We know Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon has evolved as front-runners in the competition..

Lets compare both these head-to-head,

BASIC DESIGN

"¢ Rafale C and Typhoon share the same aerodynamic configuration, means same CL
(lift) and CD (drag) coefficients law [Cx(Mach, AoA)]. This is known as not realistic,
but I do not have reliable data to differentiate them.

– Subjective position may give less Drag at high Mach number to the Typhoon and better

Lift at high AoA (>20) for the Rafale.
"¢ M88-2 and EJ-200 share same Thrust Profile (coefficient between static thrust and
actual thrust at a given altitude and Mach number configuration) under M=1.8 ,
even mounted behind 2 very different air intake, EJ-200 thrust is assumed to
decrease only after M=2.2. This is known as not realistic, but I do not have reliable
data to differentiate them.

"¢ Rafale C and Typhoon share Fly Control limits (AoA limitation versus G factor). This
is known as not realistic, but I do not have reliable data to differentiate them.
– Non confirmed information indicated higher AoA values allowed for the Rafale (Flight
envelop of the Typhoon is still not fully open)

Turn Rate Diagram at Sea level with 50% internal fuel (2/2)

Rafale C main data for Turn performance at sea level are:
– Maximum Turn Rate (CAT-I AoA limit) 30.00 deg/s at M=0.50
– Maximum sustained Turn Rate (Ps=0) 23.9 deg/s at M=0.60
"¢ Typhoon main data for Turn performance at sea level are:
– Maximum Turn Rate (CAT-I AoA limit) 29.33 deg/s at M=0.50
– Maximum sustained Turn Rate (Ps=0) 23.4 deg/s at M=0.60
"¢ Very small, quite un-significant, advantage to the Rafale in turn performance
in such configuration.

Horizontal evolution capabilities of the two planes are very similar.

Maximum Excess Specific Power with 50% internal fuel

Typhoon demonstrate higher Excess Specific Power than the Rafale at all altitude (around
10% higher at sea level) in this configuration (no external loads, 50% internal fuel).
Vertical evolution capabilities of the Typhoon are better (10%).

Energy (Ps) / Mach Diagram with 50% internal fuel

Rafale C gross weight is less (25,200lbs) but due to extra thrust, Typhoon demonstrate
superior Energy (Ps) at quite all altitude and Mach giving him advantage in climb and acceleration

"¢ Maximum Mach number of Rafale is 1.8 compared to Mach 2.0 for Typhoon, mainly due to
stealth characteristics of Rafale Air Intake and lack of mobile devices leading to loss of thrust
for higher mach number

Configuration for 45' Cruise

Cruise is supposed to be at FL300 and Mach=0.9, no external loads, and without
after burner (fuel consumption is supposed to be the best specific one gave by
engine manufacturer)
"¢ Rafale C (M88-2)
– cruise configuration sustained with a thrust of 3,737 lbs leading to a fuel flow of 2,933
lbs/h,
– 45 minutes of fly in such condition require 2,200 lbs of fuel, given a gross weight of
22,175 lbs

"¢ Typhoon (EJ-200)
– cruise configuration sustained with a thrust of 4,040 lbs leading to a fuel flow of 3,289
lbs/h,
– 45 minutes of fly in such condition require 2,467 lbs of fuel, given a gross weight of
26,749 lbs

Turn Rate Diagram at Sea level with with 45' cruise (2/2)

Rafale C main data for Turn performance at sea level are:
– Maximum Turn Rate (CAT-I AoA limit) 32.10 deg/s at M=0.45 (R= 895 ft)
– Maximum sustained Turn Rate (Ps=0) 26.25 deg/s at M=0.55 (R=1,340 ft)
"¢ Typhoon main data for Turn performance at sea level are:
– Maximum Turn Rate (CAT-I AoA limit) 30.2 deg/s at M=0.50 (R=1,060 ft)
– Maximum sustained Turn Rate (Ps=0) 25.1 deg/s at M=0.60 (R=1,529 ft)
"¢ Better Turn rate (Maximum and sustained) at lower speed (so with lower Turn radius), give to the Rafale a significant advantage in horizontal evolution in such configuration.

**Horizontal evolution capabilities of the Rafale are better.

Maximum Excess Specific Power with 45' cruise fuel

Excess Specific Power (Ps) at 1G, it indicates mainly the initial climb rate and vertical evolution capability in
dogfight.
"¢ Typhoon still demonstrate higher Excess Specific Power than the Rafale at all altitude
(around 5% higher at sea level) but advantage is lower in this configuration.

**Vertical evolution capabilities of the Typhoon are better (5%).


Source - http://topolo.free.fr/Compare/Rafale vs Typhoon

 

[SHASH2K2]

Held hostage to CISMOA, MMRCA forced towards Euro fighters

The Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement or "CISMoA" is a facet of bureaucratic and sometimes political attributes of doing business and allying with the United States. The CISMoA provides guidance on how the systems will function with other systems. Without signing the CISMOA Bharat may be ineligible to purchase advanced US technology.

A CISMoA can be a powerful tool to help operations, but it can be horribly tainted and twisted into a hindrance or a scapegoat of policy because of politics. Right now th CISMOA remains unsigned, and this remains a colossal impediment to a merit based decision.

The CISMoA attempts to facilitate agreements on how each nation's radios will communicate with each other effectively. For example, India troops may want to call in an air strike with U.S. air assets, this will require Indian ground radios to be compatible with U.S. strike aircraft radios to include encryption. Likewise, U.S. Special Ops may want to call in Indian long range artillery. The U.S. SpecOps on the ground will need their radios to communicate with Indian ground based artillery batteries.

Communications such as these are only a fraction of what CISMoA can cover. Going back to the air strike scenario, if laser guided bombs are employed, the Indian ground troops may require a laser designator. It's not just point and the aircraft shoots as the press and media will have you believe. That laser designator must be set to a specific agreed upon frequency of invisible laser light. The laser guided bombs loaded on the aircraft will also be set to accept that specific frequency. You can't have the enemy using a similar frequency of laser light to direct our bombs back on us (unlikely). If the frequencies do not match, the bombs won't register a signal.

CISMoA does not just cover hardware and software; it also covers doctrine and interaction. We can share a command center which could be transferring Indian commanders to U.S. ships or transferring U.S. Commanders to Indian ground command facilities. These commanders will be responsible for their respective forces. They will need to know how each other works. One Generals decision to bomb a target may be in conflict with the other Generals plan to take the target, hence, friendly fire incident. Or one General may want to continue negotiating while another General might want to bypass a village instead. CISMoA tries to create a framework for commanders to operate in so that they don't have to halt operations and call Washington or New Delhi for guidance. One regulating factor for a CISMoA can be the Rules of Engagement or ROE.

Reports suggest that in absence of the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), the US would be removing some of the key equipment on board the military systems being supplied to India by it. This may affect the C-130 J Hercules aircraft, C-17 heavylift aircraft and the ultra-light howitzers F-18s, and other US equipment.

The Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Competition, commonly known as the MRCA Tender, is an ongoing competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The Defence Ministry has allocated 42,000 crore (US$9.53 billion) for the purchase of these aircraft.

Six aircraft were bid for this multi-billion dollar contract, which has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever.

The discussion of purchasing F-18s from the US seems to suggest that Bharat is leaning towards European planes. Lockheed Martin's F-16IN is powered by the GE F-110-132A engine. GE recently won a contract to provide F-414 engines for India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Michael Griswold, Lockheed's director of advanced development programs, says the LCA win is a good sign that the U.S. can meet its export control requirements. "GE brought the best engine on the table at the lowest cost," he says.

"GE F-110-132A is the most powerful engine of all the contenders of the [126-aircraft] MMRCA bid," Griswold says. "Technology insertions for the engine include blisk fan, radial augmentor and a low-drag nozzle."

One potential stumbling block for U.S. competitors is the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which India has yet to sign. The U.S. will not allow the export of certain sensitive items until India signs.

"Both the Indian air force and the U.S. Air Force have communicated on this and both clearly understand the implications of CISMOA and how it affects the MMRCA," a senior official tells AVIATION WEEK.

For technical reasons the Indian Air Force (IAF) prefers Euro Fighters instead of US's F-18. Eurofighter GmbH, a joint venture of Alenia Aeronautica SpA, BAE Systems and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. NV (EADS), is one of the world's leading manufacturers of advanced fighter aircraft. Eurojet's EJ200 lost out in the race to be the engine for the Mark-II version of the light combat aircraft (LCA).

Russia is strongly pushing case for its Mig-35 and keeping in view its historical alliance and presence of MIG's in Indian Air Force its chances are not bleak.

France's Mirage and Sweden's Grippons too are in line.

In order to impress upon New Delhi to give better deals the Europeans have even offered to set up assembly houses in Bangalore

The Americans have hand-picked an Indian Vice President for the Company that makes F-18 to woo New Delhi's support.

 

[SATISH]

Held hostage to CISMOA, MMRCA forced towards Euro fighters

The Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement or "CISMoA" is a facet of bureaucratic and sometimes political attributes of doing business and allying with the United States. The CISMoA provides guidance on how the systems will function with other systems. Without signing the CISMOA Bharat may be ineligible to purchase advanced US technology.

A CISMoA can be a powerful tool to help operations, but it can be horribly tainted and twisted into a hindrance or a scapegoat of policy because of politics. Right now th CISMOA remains unsigned, and this remains a colossal impediment to a merit based decision.

The CISMoA attempts to facilitate agreements on how each nation's radios will communicate with each other effectively. For example, India troops may want to call in an air strike with U.S. air assets, this will require Indian ground radios to be compatible with U.S. strike aircraft radios to include encryption. Likewise, U.S. Special Ops may want to call in Indian long range artillery. The U.S. SpecOps on the ground will need their radios to communicate with Indian ground based artillery batteries.

Communications such as these are only a fraction of what CISMoA can cover. Going back to the air strike scenario, if laser guided bombs are employed, the Indian ground troops may require a laser designator. It's not just point and the aircraft shoots as the press and media will have you believe. That laser designator must be set to a specific agreed upon frequency of invisible laser light. The laser guided bombs loaded on the aircraft will also be set to accept that specific frequency. You can't have the enemy using a similar frequency of laser light to direct our bombs back on us (unlikely). If the frequencies do not match, the bombs won't register a signal.

CISMoA does not just cover hardware and software; it also covers doctrine and interaction. We can share a command center which could be transferring Indian commanders to U.S. ships or transferring U.S. Commanders to Indian ground command facilities. These commanders will be responsible for their respective forces. They will need to know how each other works. One Generals decision to bomb a target may be in conflict with the other Generals plan to take the target, hence, friendly fire incident. Or one General may want to continue negotiating while another General might want to bypass a village instead. CISMoA tries to create a framework for commanders to operate in so that they don't have to halt operations and call Washington or New Delhi for guidance. One regulating factor for a CISMoA can be the Rules of Engagement or ROE.

Reports suggest that in absence of the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), the US would be removing some of the key equipment on board the military systems being supplied to India by it. This may affect the C-130 J Hercules aircraft, C-17 heavylift aircraft and the ultra-light howitzers F-18s, and other US equipment.

The Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Competition, commonly known as the MRCA Tender, is an ongoing competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The Defence Ministry has allocated 42,000 crore (US$9.53 billion) for the purchase of these aircraft.

Six aircraft were bid for this multi-billion dollar contract, which has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever.

The discussion of purchasing F-18s from the US seems to suggest that Bharat is leaning towards European planes. Lockheed Martin's F-16IN is powered by the GE F-110-132A engine. GE recently won a contract to provide F-414 engines for India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Michael Griswold, Lockheed's director of advanced development programs, says the LCA win is a good sign that the U.S. can meet its export control requirements. "GE brought the best engine on the table at the lowest cost," he says.

"GE F-110-132A is the most powerful engine of all the contenders of the [126-aircraft] MMRCA bid," Griswold says. "Technology insertions for the engine include blisk fan, radial augmentor and a low-drag nozzle."

One potential stumbling block for U.S. competitors is the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which India has yet to sign. The U.S. will not allow the export of certain sensitive items until India signs.

"Both the Indian air force and the U.S. Air Force have communicated on this and both clearly understand the implications of CISMOA and how it affects the MMRCA," a senior official tells AVIATION WEEK.

For technical reasons the Indian Air Force (IAF) prefers Euro Fighters instead of US's F-18. Eurofighter GmbH, a joint venture of Alenia Aeronautica SpA, BAE Systems and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. NV (EADS), is one of the world's leading manufacturers of advanced fighter aircraft. Eurojet's EJ200 lost out in the race to be the engine for the Mark-II version of the light combat aircraft (LCA).

Russia is strongly pushing case for its Mig-35 and keeping in view its historical alliance and presence of MIG's in Indian Air Force its chances are not bleak.

France's Mirage and Sweden's Grippons too are in line.

In order to impress upon New Delhi to give better deals the Europeans have even offered to set up assembly houses in Bangalore

The Americans have hand-picked an Indian Vice President for the Company that makes F-18 to woo New Delhi's support.

Pure BS.....I got no other comments for this article...

 

[Parthy]

UK to push India on Typhoon

The government is doing "all it can" to encourage India to purchase Typhoon aircraft, defence minister Gerald Howarth has said.

Howarth, who has responsibility for defence exports, told the Commons that he agreed the Typhoon had "overwhelming" technical superiority, a view he noted The Sunday Telegraph had reported to have been reached by the Indian government.

He said: "We are doing all we can in conjunction with our partner nations to secure that order."

Howarth said that Germany has been taking the lead in selling Typhoon to India. But he said that the UK would also get involved.

He said: "I am very hopeful that when my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Defence visits India, we can further promote the case of the Typhoon."

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=14692

 

[Arun thevar]

haa...........now we will have to wait for one last thing............u guesed it right,the OBAMA effect.:happy_2:

 

[roma]

Based on everything that has come out, this original report appears to be correct.

Can't believe we are still waiting for a shortlist this long after the technical evaluation.

if i get it right it's either rafale or the euro consotium's eurofighter .

I think the consortium will provide a source of confusion and difficulties in the future - just like that ungainly european union . Too many cooks in the euro consortium - whereas in the case of rafale - only the french as the end supplier ( even if components may be from various sources - but GOI can hold one supplier accountable for the end product and performance specifications being met ) . But in comparison for the eurofighter theres gonna be a passing the buck musical chairs when any problem emerges as always will plus the individual governmental machinery getting in the way eg india hasnt signed the mtcr etc .
Not to mention the recent German green eyedness over the USA emphasis on India as a probable new incumbent to the permanent membership to the security council . Too many factors, too many actors , too many cooks. ( no puns intended)

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

We are not stuck on shortlist, we know what we want. The way I look at it it, we want to go the american way but we have apprehension about the defense agreements. What is current going to on is negotiations with different players and end of the day we will say OK this one seems better. I do not think they are in mood to say this guy is out, basically they are trying to get best possible deal.

 

[mayfair]

Dassault gives an impression that they give a damn about the India MRCA tender. Is it disdain, or throwing in the towel, or something else?

 

[SHASH2K2]

Why India will not buy F16 IN ​

India's M-MRCA competition is currently the largest and most lucrative fighter competition in the world. I believe Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Block 60+ "Super Viper" offering will have a difficult time making past the shortlist of six. Other contenders vying for the USD 11 billion deal include Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornet, MiG-35, SAAB Gripen NG, Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.

One major factor working specifically against the Lockheed Martin F-16's is that it has been in operation in the Pakistan Air Force for decades. It is clearly an older, single engined platform compared to its competitors and just does not impress the Indian Air Force regardless of the media blitz launched by the Director of Advance Development Programme Mr. Michael R Griswold in New Delhi last week.

"First, the Indian Air Force has refused to comment officially on specific progress in the MMRCA competition, but an IAF officer familiar with developments at Air Force HQ has indicated to a select group of journalists, on condition of anonymity, that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence specifically agree that there is no sense in purchasing a platform that the US is already supplying to Pakistan (notwithstanding the assertion that the variant on offer to India is far more advanced). This, especially when the F-16 has come to symbolize the irritation India nurses against the stubborn rhetoric South Block faces from the US when it registers its disquiet at billions of dollars worth of conventional weapons being supplied hand over fist to Pakistan supposedly for the war against terror."
—Shiv Aroor on LiveFist

Cold-war era co-operation with Pakistan cannot be undone, but United States Government policy must not shackle competitiveness of American defense companies in India. There is enough concern in India about the ever growing conventional military aid given by successive U.S. Presidents to Pakistan—worth approximately USD 15 billion—since 9/11. Most of this aid, as expected, has been hijacked by the Pakistani military, and used to build up military capability against India.

That the United States expects India to purchase American weapons while the same are being gifted to the Pakistanis is not being overlooked in New Delhi.

The second factor that works against all American defense companies pitching for various defense deals in India are the controversial and binding agreements that the United States is pushing along with these arms sales. India Defence has previously reported on these agreements and has provided excerpts and citations, as had Defense Industry Daily. The mainstream media too has picked up on these and has covered it aggressively during President Obama's November 2010 New Delhi visit, which otherwise is being seen as a huge success.

This is an unusual occurrence for a country like India. India has close and non-conflicting strategic-defense relations with major countries including Russia, Israel, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc. and has not encountered such restrictions elsewhere.

After its liberalization in the early 1990s, defense procurement in India has become an increasingly open, transparent and fair process. Multiple candidates vying for each tender is often the case. Simply put, it is overwhelmingly a buyers market. American defense companies will do well to impress upon the U.S. Government to recognize the environment in India and withdraw Government-imposed clauses that hurt the competency of U.S. defense products and companies.

The success of President Obama's visit and the deepening ties seen through the Clinton and Bush Jr. Presidencies, have already produced significant deals. On the other hand, India has learnt well from the cold-war era, and is unlikely to put all its eggs in one basket. Regardless of the F-16's success or failure in M-MRCA, the United States has the potential to strongly compete with Russia and Israel, and become a close defense partner to India.

 

[ALBY]

why f15 fighters are not considered for the trials for the 126 MRCA?

 

[Agantrope]

why f15 fighters are not considered for the trials for the 126 MRCA?

F-15s and Su-27/30/35 falls in same category, ie Heavy Class fighters.

 

[ALBY]

thanx mate for the information...can u tell me whether india has any heavy bombers as like tupalev or b1/52

 

[thecoolone]

India does not have any heavy or big bombers, either B1/B52 or tupolev. But India can use Mirage 2000 and jaguars to drop nuclear bombs.

 

[blade]

THERE ARE SEVERAL POINTS THOSE ARE GOING AGAINST TYPHOON

1. Developed primarily as an air superiority platform & yet to achieve a A2G capability comparable to rafale or F 18s. [There are enough many independent open sources available to back my claim ]
2. No operational AESA, One currently under development(will be the first of its kind made by the company), Any compatibility issue or any technical glitch will push the induction of MRCA in IAF further away.Orelse India will have to look toward France or Russia for another unproven AESA or under performing MMR which may bring in a lot many compatibility & redesigning issues with it.
3. French air force,most likely the second most effective airforce in the world decided not to induct it inspite of typhoon being a cheaper platform than rafale.
4. tranche III dose not offer any change in the basic capabilities except a new brochure showcasing a lot of future prospect.
5. Too many countries are involved in this project.Some of them are Italy and Germany those have a long history in Grey marketing.So sensitive data may seep out especially when Europe is suffering under tremendous financial heat.
6. Turkey is being offered a partnership for future growth of the typhoon project.So in case Indian decision makers injudiciously choose typhoon in MRCA they should make sure that no such deal takes place with turkey.Afterall we love repeating mistakes.

 

[maomao]

Some New EFT Videos:

[video]http://www.eurofighter.com/media/video-library.html?tx_mmdamfilelist_pi1[showUid]=837&cHash=03f5e66c0810b1344d2edf200831c2db[/video] (Interesting Video with fully loaded ETF)

[video]http://www.eurofighter.com/media/video-library.html?tx_mmdamfilelist_pi1[showUid]=834&cHash=7df5fa6475ec98fdbafe98056100ff08[/video]

[video]http://www.eurofighter.com/media/video-library.html?tx_mmdamfilelist_pi1[showUid]=856&cHash=23ce2b34c4a72508af02aeb02c864327[/video]

 

[StealthSniper]

 

[vikramrana_1812]

Eurofighter pledges partnership opportunities in bid to secure MMRCA contract

The supervisory board of Eurofighter met in New Delhi during 25-26 October to boost the group's bid to secure the Indian Air Force's USD10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.
Eurofighter said in a statement that the supervisory board will support the MMRCA campaign as well as propose "additional opportunities for industrial and technological co-operation" to potential Indian partners.
The supervisory board consists of chief executive officers (CEOs) from Eurofighter partners EADS, BAE Systems and Finmeccanica subsidiary Alenia Aeronautica.
The significance of the meeting was outlined by Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems. He said: "The Eurofighter supervisory board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner."

 

[vikramrana_1812]

Eurofighter Consortium Leads Indian Fighter Jet Deal
The Eurofighter consortium is set to win an $11.3bn deal to supply 126 Typhoon fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF).
The Typhoon aircraft has topped the IAF's technical assessment of bids, beating the US's F16 and F18s, Russian MiG 35s and France's Dassault Rafale.
The Typhoon is manufactured by a joint venture between the UK's BAE Systems, Italy's Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS.
If the Eurofighter jet wins the deal, India will become the consortium's third-largest customer and an unofficial fifth partner in the project.
The Typhoon aircraft is an integrated platform for its weapons, radar and intelligence-gathering systems, according to Reuters.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/news101597.html

 

[chex3009]

Guys, when are we upgrading our MiG-29 to SMT standards???? Any News on it????