MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[ace009]

I think the author has some really valid points - however, in my HO, India should scrap the AMCA plans and get on board the F-35 program, with full Tech transfer from design / development/ manufacture agreements. That way, we will have a AMCA type strike fighter by 2017-18 - maybe 10 years before the still mythical AMCA. We can use the knowledge gathered into developing our next levels of strike fighters.
As for the "Bomb truck" comment about the F-35 (or the F-18 in other cases), I find it extremely ignorant and stupid - a "strike fighter" is different from a "air-defense" fighter. A "multi-role" fighter is good, but not good enough to replace either. In Indian perspective, all we have are "air-defense" fighters, except for the Jaguar`s, which are old and tired as far as "strike fighter" goes. India should have 50 squadrons of combat a/c - 20-22 squadrons of Heavy "air superiority" fighters, 10-12 squadrons of "interceptors" and 10 squadrons of "strike fighters" and 5-6 squadrons of "multi-role" fighters.

 

[Daredevil]

Again Ajai Shukla and other supporting him are missing the main point. We need MRCA for immediate filling up of gaps that are going to develop once Migs are going to be retired. If we wait for F-35, which most probably cannot be delivered to us before 2020 given the incessant delays in the program and a long queue by the US allies for it, our squadron strength will drop to dangerous levels and will not be able to defend ourselves very well. Please go through the requirements of MRCA to know the real need of IAF - a multi-role fighter which has cheap life cycle and maintainance costs with significant ToT. F-35 is an overkill for MRCA by all means whichever way you look at it.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Don't Run Behind Rafael, EF Tyfoon, or F 18.

The future is here " with F 35"

I hope you are aware of Brahmos being integrated with SU30 MKI . What is the need to go so deep into territory when someone can do it from Far away? Accuracy of Brahmos is one of the best and it cannot be stopped so easily. Now signal from GPS system. We need USA approval to get military grade signal from USA and They can cut that lifeline any time if they want to . Remember they stopped the signal during one of brahmos test and it was a failure. It came to our notice that it was signal that caused the failure. We are getting military grade signal from Glonass so why depend on GPS. Glonass is more accurate than GPS . Now comes the cost and continuous delay in F35 Program. Initially it was 1 Billion and God knows by the time it comes into production it may reach 2 Billion. Mrca is more about Getting TOT that will help us bridge technical gap in terms of technology and enable our industries to manufacture high End stuffs. We will have no Technology transfer Whatsoever and will definitely not get top End F35 . It will be a scaled down version. They will not be ready to integrate F35 with Glonass and we will not be allowed to do on our end. SO it will always be on mercy of USA . They can cut our lifeline any time.
Now comes greatest problem. Today Evening only there was a huge debate on Cismoa ,Beca and Eula. Its terms are completely unacceptable. They want us to change communication protical and equipments of all 3 branches . We will bear cost to make them inter operable with US forces. WE are not USA ally or we donto deal only with them. we use Russian , French and other systems as well. They will be come useless. Moreover USA will have complete authority and can snoop on our activity. Any sovereign country will not allow that . Leave aside F35 even Super hornet is not coming to India. We can manage with something Inferior but with less interference .

 

[SHASH2K2]

Again Ajai Shukla and other supporting him are missing the main point. We need MRCA for immediate filling up of gaps that are going to develop once Migs are going to be retired. If we wait for F-35, which most probably cannot be delivered to us before 2020 given the incessant delays in the program and a long queue by the US allies for it, our squadron strength will drop to dangerous levels and will not be able to defend ourselves very well. Please go through the requirements of MRCA to know the real need of IAF - a multi-role fighter which has cheap life cycle and maintainance costs with significant ToT. F-35 is an overkill for MRCA by all means whichever way you look at it.

Many people here are daydreaming about complete TOT . USA will not give complete TOT for Superhornet leave aside F35. If we go for F35 even 30 % offset clause have to go. we will just import the planes.

 

[roma]

If that is the case then I think Gripen suits us the best. Cheap with good ToT, lower life cycle costs and more room for development. Disadvantage with F-16 is that it has reached dead end in its development program so we cannot expect major MLUs in future otherwise it fits the bill very well with an Advanced AESA.

I feel that the TOT offer from SAAB is too good to slip past ...hold them to their word and see if they deliver and the risk can be insured via diversification ....besides of the 200 aircraft to be purchased the tenderer is the one who calls the shots and GOI should pull some on this .... actual tender purhase can be split even if not expressly stated in the original documents. Let's go 50 SAAB, 50 Rafale, 50 Mig and 50 F16 ..... spares shouldnt be a problem with these numbers only rather the willingness to supply them in which case those who are unwilling can be marked against while the remaing 150 are in operational condition.

 

[ace009]

I guess you missed the points made by Ajay Shukla as well. As I mentioned in my earlier post, he is right to a large extent. Here are the points ...
1. India does not have a tactical bomber, far less a strategic bomber. The strategic command has recently asked for two squadrons of strategic strike fighters for this purpose. We can get into the F-35 program for this alone.
2. Since India does not have any dedicated tactical bombers, it is time we develop a program especially for that. Now, the "bomb truck" commentators will question why we need any tactical bombers at all? Can't missiles do the same job? Well, the answer is yes and no. Missiles are effective for a single target (or for multi-target warheads, "blind" multiple targets, which as of yet, India has none). a strike fighter or a tactical bomber can take out multiple targets especially "differentiate" between friend and foe during a ground assault. Also, a missile is expensive for many purposes (taking out a machine gun nest, an infantry dugout etc). A strike fighter or a tactical bomber using a "dumb bomb" is way cheaper, provided the aircraft returns unharmed. Which is why India needs an advanced strike fighter with stealth features (like the AMCA in the plans).
3. Ground attack aircraft are the "real" attack aircraft. Air-defense / air superiority is important, but is not enough to win the war on the ground. And as we have seen in the last 25-30 years, that's what matters in the end. A multi-role aircraft can only deliver so much punch - after all it is primarily a "air-defense" aircraft, with limited attack capabilities. India does not have any aircraft like this except for the old Jaguars and to some extent the Mig 27, all of which are nearing the end of their service life and should definitely be phased out by 2020.
4. With modern radar and electronic detection technology, any combat aircraft operating in enemy territory (e.g. ground attack aircraft) will need a certain degree of "stealth" to avoid detection and counter attack from SAM or air-defense fighters. None of current Indian aircraft have such features. And I doubt the top-of-the-line expensive as hell, air-superiority fighter FGFA, albeit "stealthy", when inducted will be used for deep strike purposes in enemy territory.

So, in my HO, India needs a tactical strike fighter, which is designed specifically for ground attack, but has enough "fighter" capabilities to defend itself in a pinch. India is already planning the AMCA for this role, however, the development plans are too long. We can easily get the F-35 to fill that role.

As for the MMRCA, I do agree it is a more immediate need for the IAF. So, let's go ahead and buy that now and ensure delivery by 2014. The F-35 should be bought in place of the AMCA as a "strike fighter". The AMCA should be pushed back to a 6th generation combat aircraft, i.e. an unmanned multi-role fighter aircraft with advanced stealth features.

 

[Daredevil]

Let's go 70 SAAB, 50 Rafale, 50 Mig and 50 F16

I think that is not a wise decision due to logistics issue. Air force's around the world would like to maintain as few possible types of air crafts. It makes things easy for AF to maintain, repair, future upgrades of ACs and training of pilots as well.

 

[SHASH2K2]

I guess you missed the points made by Ajay Shukla as well. As I mentioned in my earlier post, he is right to a large extent. Here are the points ...
1. India does not have a tactical bomber, far less a strategic bomber. The strategic command has recently asked for two squadrons of strategic strike fighters for this purpose. We can get into the F-35 program for this alone.
2. Since India does not have any dedicated tactical bombers, it is time we develop a program especially for that. Now, the "bomb truck" commentators will question why we need any tactical bombers at all? Can't missiles do the same job? Well, the answer is yes and no. Missiles are effective for a single target (or for multi-target warheads, "blind" multiple targets, which as of yet, India has none). a strike fighter or a tactical bomber can take out multiple targets especially "differentiate" between friend and foe during a ground assault. Also, a missile is expensive for many purposes (taking out a machine gun nest, an infantry dugout etc). A strike fighter or a tactical bomber using a "dumb bomb" is way cheaper, provided the aircraft returns unharmed. Which is why India needs an advanced strike fighter with stealth features (like the AMCA in the plans).
3. Ground attack aircraft are the "real" attack aircraft. Air-defense / air superiority is important, but is not enough to win the war on the ground. And as we have seen in the last 25-30 years, that's what matters in the end. A multi-role aircraft can only deliver so much punch - after all it is primarily a "air-defense" aircraft, with limited attack capabilities. India does not have any aircraft like this except for the old Jaguars and to some extent the Mig 27, all of which are nearing the end of their service life and should definitely be phased out by 2020.
4. With modern radar and electronic detection technology, any combat aircraft operating in enemy territory (e.g. ground attack aircraft) will need a certain degree of "stealth" to avoid detection and counter attack from SAM or air-defense fighters. None of current Indian aircraft have such features. And I doubt the top-of-the-line expensive as hell, air-superiority fighter FGFA, albeit "stealthy", when inducted will be used for deep strike purposes in enemy territory.

So, in my HO, India needs a tactical strike fighter, which is designed specifically for ground attack, but has enough "fighter" capabilities to defend itself in a pinch. India is already planning the AMCA for this role, however, the development plans are too long. We can easily get the F-35 to fill that role.

As for the MMRCA, I do agree it is a more immediate need for the IAF. So, let's go ahead and buy that now and ensure delivery by 2014. The F-35 should be bought in place of the AMCA as a "strike fighter". The AMCA should be pushed back to a 6th generation combat aircraft, i.e. an unmanned multi-role fighter aircraft with advanced stealth features.

If we need a Tactical Bomber Super hornet fits the role perfectly except for stealth. After all many people are against it as its more of a bomber than a Fighter plane. We cannot cancel AMCA as we donot have technical expertise to directly Jump to 6th Generation from 4th generation. We need to have a 5th generation plane on our own.

 

[ace009]

As I have mentioned in both of my last posts, I support the requirements for a MMRCA and for a "multi-role" purpose, the F/A-18 superhornet is NOT the best plane. It has outdated platform, limited future and almost no new tech coming in with ToT. EF-2000 is much better for the "multi-role" purpose, no matter what Ajay Shukla says. But we are getting only 126 of those - which means 6 squadrons (20 planes/ squadron, the new IAF standard and 6 for training purpose I guess).
However, my whole point is that to fill the role of a tactical bomber/ dedicated attack aircraft we can go with the F-35 program. It will be a very important step for us if we can get a share of the actual design, development and manufacturing technolgy of the F-35. And if India can pump in $10 billions into the presently cash-starved F-35 program now, I am sure we will be able to bargain for all that. we can also think of using the F-35 for strategic bombing "deep strike" needs.
The AMCA in my opinion is a too far ahead, not really necessary program, since it will do the same things the F-35 does. We can leap-frog ahead to 6th gen technolgy using the "knowledge" from the F-35. BA in britain is already testing it's potential 6th gen a/c based on their limited knowledge from the EF-2000 program, which is itself a 4.5 gen fighter. If they can do it, so can India.

 

[nitesh]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/world/asia/07prexy.html?_r=2&hp

Mr. Obama is also taking Indian defense research and space agencies off the United States' "entities list," clearing the way for greater cooperation. Executives here welcomed the moves.

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...114951/UK-closes-in-on-11bn-fighter-deal.html
UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal
The European-made Typhoon fighter is winning the fight for the $11.5bn (£7.1bn) contract to supply 126 fighters to the Indian Air Force in a deal worth $5 billion and 2,000 new jobs to Britain.

The multi-role combat aircraft, manufactured by a joint venture between Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS, has come top in the Indian Air Force's technical assessment of rival bids, beating the American F16 and F18s, the Russian MiG 35 and its closest rival, the French Dassault Rafale.

A senior Indian official has told The Sunday Telegraph that its air force's technical findings have been forwarded to the defence ministry, where a final decision is expected to be made in the next few months.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead," the official said.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, head of the Royal Air Force, visited India last week for the Indradhanush joint RAF-Indian Air Force exercise in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, where Indian fighter pilots flew RAF Typhoons for the first time under the gaze of their own Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.

"Set aside initial development costs and Typhoon's through-life costs compare very well," said Sir Stephen.

The Typhoon's unique advantage, he said, is an integrated platform for its weapons, radar and intelligence- gathering systems. "It has this flexibility and adaptability at any one time," he said. Sir Stephen previously headed Britain's Typhoon development programme at the Ministry of Defence.

Indian officials have long said that Eurofighter had a good chance of winning the contract. Arif Shahid Khan, India's ambassador to Italy, said in January that the Eurofighter was "leading the race" in the trials, which were then under way.

Winning the contract would be a jobs boost not just for BAE Systems' Warton plant in Lancashire but also the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain.

 

[mayfair]

I thought Rupeenews was officially proscribed as a source of information here..do we really need to hear the tripe they spout on a daily basis?

 

[thecoolone]

TELEGRAPH: Typhoon Leads MMRCA Pack!

This new report in the Daily Telegraph suggests that the Eurofighter Typhoon is ahead of the other five fighter contenders in India's $11-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The report quotes an unnamed IAF source as saying that the Typhoon emerged on top of the pack in the technical and field evaluations. There have been two earlier reports in the Indian media about the Typhoon making any cut that may happen.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/telegraph-typhoon-leads-mmrca-pack.html

 

[thecoolone]

US defence and nuclear deals could touch $15 bn
NEW DELHI: India is likely to indicate or announce defence and other deals with the US worth around $15 billion during President Barack Obama's Nov 6-9 visit.

While India is yet to decide the winner for the 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) contract from among the six US and European competitors, Washington is already set to win orders for six more Boeing C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlifters in addition to the 10 already being negotiated, six more Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules aircraft in addition to the six already purchased, and possibly new combat and heavy lift helicopters depending upon the trial results.

The deal for four more Boeing P8-I Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA), or long-range anti-submarine aircraft, which the Navy recently announced, could also be firmed up.

Bean for bean, the 10 C-17s, with their full package including training and spares cleared by the US Congress, cost $5.58 billion, but the negotiated price is likely to be around $4.5 billion and that of six more around $2.5 billion, or an estimated total of $7 billion for 16 aircraft.

The already purchased eight P8-I cost $2.2 billion and the six C-130Js $1.1 billion. If the newer machines are added, the US companies secure additional orders worth $1.6 or $1.7 billion.

There is also the $700-800 million deal for 99 GE 414 engines to power the indigenously designed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) under negotiations.

These defence deals exceed $10 billion in value.

Although there is no single "signature item" from the defence list, the removal of nuclear technology restrictions from the US entities or banned list, should lead to major nuclear power projects to be awarded to US companies, and these could be worth around $5 billion.

Notably, Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, whose Department of Commerce is responsible for imposing or removing the restrictions on transfer of dual use technology , has strongly indicated the removal of nuclear technology restrictions, which are formally to be announced during the Obama visit.

Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Michele Frournoy, who was recently in India to prepare for the presidential visit, also announced that the US had lifted more than 90 per cent of the restrictions on defence equipment for India.

While no specific details are available, the flurry of activities in both Washington and New Delhi on the eve of the visit, India's signing of the Convention on Supplementary Compensation (CSC) recently at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Nov 4 ahead of Obama's arrival, indicate some substantial deals are in the offing.

These could mean award of civil nuclear projects, for which former president George Bush and now Obama have been keen.


Certain Indian institutions like the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs), as well as civil nuclear bodies are likely to be removed from the so-called entities list.

How far the restrictions are really removed, will be known only in course of time, but there would be a step by step approach by Washington, and reciprocally of course, by New Delhi.

There are and there will be hiccups, as India has declined to sign some defence agreements with the US, particularly the Logistics Support Agreement and Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement or CISMOA. The US says that it does not want more from India than what for instance Japan and Britain do, but then India is not militarily tied with the US like those of its allies.

But India recently signed the End User Monitoring (EUM) and Enhanced End User Monitoring (EEUM) agreements for purchasing 24 Boeing Harpoon Block-II missiles for the Indian Air Force (IAF) worth a declared value of $170 million. These agreements are largely aimed at safe storage and preventing unauthorised access.

The US leads the world because of its technological dominance. And India is hungry for technology for economic growth. The question is: how much will the US release? The results of IAF's MMRCA competition, and more defence cooperation with the US, will also depend upon that.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...als-could-touch-15-bn/articleshow/6876157.cms

 

[thecoolone]

If US has signed $10 bn worth deal with India (which Obama says will help to support around 54,000 jobs in the United States). Then I would say India has more or less made US happy or at least satisfied. In this scenario, it is more likely that we might move on to get Eurofighter (supported by reports published in telegraph@UK & Livefist) in a hope for getting the support of Europe.

 

[SHASH2K2]

As I have mentioned in both of my last posts, I support the requirements for a MMRCA and for a "multi-role" purpose, the F/A-18 superhornet is NOT the best plane. It has outdated platform, limited future and almost no new tech coming in with ToT. EF-2000 is much better for the "multi-role" purpose, no matter what Ajay Shukla says. But we are getting only 126 of those - which means 6 squadrons (20 planes/ squadron, the new IAF standard and 6 for training purpose I guess).
However, my whole point is that to fill the role of a tactical bomber/ dedicated attack aircraft we can go with the F-35 program. It will be a very important step for us if we can get a share of the actual design, development and manufacturing technolgy of the F-35. And if India can pump in $10 billions into the presently cash-starved F-35 program now, I am sure we will be able to bargain for all that. we can also think of using the F-35 for strategic bombing "deep strike" needs.
The AMCA in my opinion is a too far ahead, not really necessary program, since it will do the same things the F-35 does. We can leap-frog ahead to 6th gen technolgy using the "knowledge" from the F-35. BA in britain is already testing it's potential 6th gen a/c based on their limited knowledge from the EF-2000 program, which is itself a 4.5 gen fighter. If they can do it, so can India.

I have a better solution for Ajay as well as you. Pak Fa will also be a stealth plane. Why not try to modify that plane to carry more bombs and use it in Bomber role. If we commit more in number say somewhere around 100 it can definitely be done. We will have A strategic stealth bomber and will be able to save our AMCA project as well.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The full case for scrapping the MMRCA tender and buying the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Even if the MoD were to start making hard choices, any threat to an indigenously produced 5th Generation fighter is the FGFA, not the F-35. The F-35 --- a strike aircraft --- is significantly different from the LCA Mk II and the AMCA, which are more akin to the multi-role (and biased towards air defence) FGFA.

FGFA is a threat to AMCA? Who is trying to kid who? How can a 28-30 ton FGFA become a threat to 18-20 ton AMCA? And BTW to all that logic(good but failed) which states IAF needs good Air to Ground LO fighter not just another Air to Air fighter in the form of AMCA that the MCA was originally planned as a LO attack jet with secondary Air to Air role and was never never a competitor to FGFA or for that matter to any H-MRCA. It is only when IAF asked then ADA started working on adding multi role features to MCA and renamed it as AMCA -- a multi role LO fighter-bomber with more emphasis on Air to Ground than Air to Air -- not NGFA. Dumping NGFA and using AMCA in itself shows what this LO fighter is going come up as.

 

[vishal_lionheart]

Boeing is studying a centerline pod, which will have four internal stations for AIM-120 AMRAAMs and 500-lb Joint Direct Attack Munitions in a similar fashion to the Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle's Conformal Weapons Bays, but with less stealth. Other improvements include a chin mounted IRST and all aspect missile and laser warning, in the same fashion as the F-35.

Boeing has offered India a "International Super Hornet Roadmap" which includes:

* Conformal fuel tanks
* Enhanced Performance Engines
* Spherical missile / laser warning
* Enclosed weapons pod
* Next-generation cockpit
* Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)

 

[maomao]

How reliable is the telegraph article or its a pressure tactic by the EFT lobbyists from UK and India?

P.S: EFT is and excellent fighter with A2A capabilities and will surely have awesome A2G capabilities.

 

[Daredevil]

MMRCA is a never ending Saga with no clear outcome even after 2 years of tests, trials and tribulations. As if this is not enough, then there are Ajai Shuklas who muddle the water even further by throwing in red herrings like F-35. I hope MoD will put an end to this saga sooner otherwise defence forums will go crazy.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

now that Obama has finished his visit the MMRCA winner is likely to be announced anytime. If it was indeed an US fighter which won what better time to have announced it than when Mr. Obama was here . Its clear it will not be an Yankee plane.