MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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Patriot

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Bad News For EUROFIGHTER

Italy Eyes Defense Cuts
Sep 9, 2010
By Andy Nativi
Genoa


Italy is not immune to the defense cuts that are spreading across Europe. While the government has yet to present a plan for reducing military spending, Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa has revealed highlights of the reductions he will announce by the end of October.

The finance minister plans to impose across-the-board cuts of 10% to the budget of every ministry. This will meet the government's goal of reducing spending by €29 billion ($36.8 billion) from 2011-13.

La Russa deflected measures that would have affected military pay, but had to accept reductions that have not been welcomed by service personnel. These include such expenses as trips abroad for training and meetings.

So far the ax has not affected the €1.5 billion Italy spends annually on international missions, which is outside the defense budget. In July, parliament approved the extension of current missions to the end of the year without cuts. This is important because Italy is conducting a surge in Afghanistan, which will bring 4,000 soldiers in theater by the end of 2010, along with 800 vehicles and 32 aircraft. This mission alone requires €366 million to year-end.

Funds will continue to be provided for operations in Lebanon, where 1,800 soldiers are deployed; stabilization missions in the Balkans, which account for 1,200 troops; and other peacekeeping activities. But it is clear that maintaining these funding levels will be difficult next year, and La Russa says he will try to reduce the Balkans commitment. Italy recently turned down command of the NATO mission in Kosovo, which would have required at least 100 troops. Even if NATO is eager to disengage from Kosovo, the situation on the ground has worsened, with renewed clashes between Serbian minorities and the Albanian majority following affirmation of Kosovo independence. This could affect plans to reduce troop levels. (For a report on conditions in Belgrade, see DTI July/August, p. 52.)



La Russa also announced plans to reduce the size of the military to 180,000 from 190,000. This is more of a tactical announcement, since the force is already around 185,000 due to a slowdown in the enlistment of new soldiers and reenlistments. The minister hinted at personnel reform, saying there are too many senior non-commissioned officers (NCOs) and higher-ranking officers. A broad cut of civilian personnel is envisioned, as well.

La Russa pledged to cancel, reduce or postpone procurement programs to achieve €5 billion in savings. The minister points as an example to the proposed acquisition of 25 Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3B aircraft, which will be canceled, saving at least €2 billion. In May Eurofighter delivered a price proposal for 124 Tranche 3B aircraft—valued at around €8 billion and including options in weapons and system integration—to the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency, which acts on behalf of the U.K., Germany, Italy and Spain. The contract is to be signed in 2011. Under the original umbrella contract, Italy was planning to buy 121 Typhoons but will now stop at 96, unless it can sell some Tranche 1 aircraft to a foreign customer.

Another air force program that has been deferred is acquisition of a sigint/intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance system, to be jointly operated with the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency. The platform, a Gulfstream G550, has been specified, and there is a competition underway between Lockheed Martin and Israel Aerospace Industries to provide mission systems.

No decision has been taken on the number of F-35 aircraft that Italy will acquire for the air force and navy, with a tentative combined requirement of 135 A and B versions.

La Russa also wants to end procurement of Fremm multimission frigates at six vessels rather than 10. The navy needs them to replace as many as 12 frigates, some already worn out. The minister has not mentioned a program termination, but wants to defer the decision to procure the remaining four vessels in 2013, possibly selling them to international buyers.

Procurement savings from these efforts will not be immediate. Since almost all program payments are spread over a number of years, the €5 billion of savings could be achieved only in the mid-term.

These moves will have a major impact on Italy's defense industry and be scrutinized by parliament, which has asked for a wide-ranging defense restructuring instead of cuts and cost reductions.

Photo: Geoffrey Lee






Italy Eyes Defense Cuts | AVIATION WEEK
 

Patriot

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Eurofighter Typhoon: The perfect solution for Poland
The European Typhoon team support MSPO 2010 exhibition at Kielce
Published on ASDNews: Sep 10, 2010

(September 9, 2010) -- Eurofighter continued its season of autumn shows with a large presence in Kielce, Poland this week as the international defence consortium develops further its relationships across Europe. Eurofighter Typhoon had a first time presence at the 18th International Defence Industry Exhibition (MSPO) which began on Monday 6th September and ran through to the 9th. The well attended event saw over 360 exhibitors representing a wide variety of nations and the Eurofighter exhibit drew in many of them.

With a potential future requirement for a new multi-role aircraft that provides the Polish Air Force with a long-term deterrent, Eurofighter and its partner companies: BAE Systems, EADS and Alenia Aeronautica, can offer significant benefits for Polish industry including industrial partnerships, associated transfer of technology, and the offer of strong bilateral economic benefits across Europe.

The Eurofighter exhibit at MSPO displayed a selection of current and future capabilities on the aircraft including the newly in-service Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) and the recently announced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. The aircraft's capabilities are fully flexible, with the ability to deliver a range of multi-role mission requirements from one platform. The aircraft is fully interoperable with NATO forces and has the ability to compliment mixed fleets.

Eurofighter continue to build links with European air forces, and a Polish future requirement would strengthen further the European aerospace and defence industry. With over 100,000 people working on Eurofighter across 400 companies, joining the programme would mean enhancing highly skilled Polish jobs and introducing a diverse network of suppliers, bringing flexibility, technology and industrial partnerships to the nation.





Eurofighter Typhoon: The perfect solution for Poland - ASDNews
 

vikramrana_1812

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Cost of Fighter Aircraft in the Indian Air Force

Type Cost in Crores of Rupees Cost in Millions of USD (44Rs/$)
MiG-21Bis (Old Airframe) 3.32 0.75
MiG-21Bis (New Airframe) 10.10 2.30
MiG-21FL 1.46 0.33
MiG-21M 1.46 0.33
MiG-21U (Old Airframe) 1.80 0.41
MiG-21U (New imports) 10.02 2.28
MiG-23BN 4.32 0.98
MiG-23MF 5.43 1.23
MiG-23UB (New imports) 12.35 2.81
MiG-25 11.83 2.69
MiG-27ML 16.14 3.67
MiG-29 91.00 20.68
MIG-29 (Old Airframe) 20.29 4.61
Jaguar 94.30 21.43
Mirage 2000 129.52 29.44
Sukhoi-30 K -N.A- -N.A-
Sukhoi-30 MKI -N.A- -N.A-
Figures are all Approximate - Based on the values quoted in Lok Sabha Question Hour Session PARLIAMENT QUESTIONS ,LOK SABHA

Updated Numbers (July 2009)*
Type Cost in Crores of Rupees Cost in Millions of USD (48Rs/$)
MiG-21 Variants 7.50 to 15.00 1.56 to 3.12
MiG-23 BN 33.00 6.87
MiG-29 55.00 0.33
Jaguar IS 109.50 22.81
Jaguar IB 95.00 19.79
Mirage 2000 150.54 31.36

Indian Air Force :: Cost of Fighter Aircraft in the Indian Air Force
 

slenke

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They didn't, Jobin's report said Rafale offered more ToT.
Oh, you mean the "corrected" report that was remade due to political orders? That is politicians trying to steer a procurement in their favoured direction...
 

p2prada

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This shouldn't really surprise anyone, several key components of Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen are sourced externally.For instance, titanium parts for Rafale's M88 engine is sourced from TITAL Germany.Can these titanium parts be machined in France? Probably - but can a local vendor achieve the same quality and efficiency as TITAL while remaining cost competitive - probably not?



TITAL GmbH established as Supplier for Engine Manufacturer | TITAL® - The very best in castings

As a matter of fact, several key Rafale components are sourced from Britain, Switzerland, Germany,Spain and the United States.
It may surprise you but Spectra is manufactured by Thales North America Inc.

Here is a list of major suppliers to the Dassault Rafale aircraft program. A similar list is available for Gripen and Typhoon. For those concerned about US Sanctions and Export restrictions on military and dual use items then with the possible exception of MIG none of the other aircrafts are a 100% sanction proof. Some are more susceptible than others, I will admit that the Gripen, Typhoon
are less immune than the Rafale.

Dassault Rafale - program supplier guide

The United States is a global HUB for the aeronautics industry evidenced by the fact that 55% of the new Airbus 380 is US content.Trying to build a hitech warplane while avoiding US origin components and equipment is like going to Wal Mart and expecting to find something NOT 'Made in China'.
The French still own 100% on IPR. Boeing makes doors for their passenger aircraft in India and also the Super Hornet's gun bay doors. The P-8 will have some components sourced from India too. Nevertheless, the IPR belongs to Boeing and not India.

If the US sanctions Thales NA in dealing with India, we will find a million other options which may even better what is coming from Thales. Perhaps Thales will open a manufacturing plant in India for Spectra and sell it to other countries using India as a base.

BaE is already planning to do that with the EF-2000 in India. The current partner countries manufacture a part of the aircraft and are later assembled, but India wants to manufacture the entire aircraft in house which makes it cheaper in the long run.

American products are used in Airbus 380 only because they are cheaper. If the Chinese come out with something equivalent with similar quality, then 55% of A-380 parts will be sourced from China.

Simple economics. IPR matters not manufacturing.
 

Anshu Attri

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Russian Air Force Chief Inquires About MiG-35 Biting Dust In MMRCA


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Russian Air Force Chief Inquires About MiG-35 Biting Dust In MMRCA



Russian Air Force chief Colonel-General Alexander Zelin, who was in India last week on a five day official visit, is understood to have asked his Indian counterpart, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, on a personal level about reports, many of these in Russia, that the MiG-35 was out of contention in India's MMRCA fighter competition. Air Chief Naik is said to have assured the Russian general that there had been no eliminations in the competition so far, and that there was no question of the MiG-35 being "eliminated" at this stage. The Russian general is understood to have conveyed that he was concerned about the reports since it showed that there was a concerted negative campaign to oust the MiG-35 from the competition. The general was assured that the trial team from RAC-MiG had been given an extensive brief on their aircraft's performance in the field evaluation trials, and that there was no question of opacity in the matter.

The visiting General made stops at Jodhpur, Begumpet and Bidar.
 

vijay jagannathan

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He would have had a clearer picture if he had enquired with the Mikoyan officials who have already been briefed.
 

death.by.chocolate

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The French still own 100% on IPR. Boeing makes doors for their passenger aircraft in India and also the Super Hornet's gun bay doors. The P-8 will have some components sourced from India too. Nevertheless, the IPR belongs to Boeing and not India.

If the US sanctions Thales NA in dealing with India, we will find a million other options which may even better what is coming from Thales. Perhaps Thales will open a manufacturing plant in India for Spectra and sell it to other countries using India as a base.

BaE is already planning to do that with the EF-2000 in India. The current partner countries manufacture a part of the aircraft and are later assembled, but India wants to manufacture the entire aircraft in house which makes it cheaper in the long run.

American products are used in Airbus 380 only because they are cheaper. If the Chinese come out with something equivalent with similar quality, then 55% of A-380 parts will be sourced from China.

Simple economics. IPR matters not manufacturing.
It's not that simple. The criteria for dual-use or military use technology is quite broad. It goes beyond IP and includes manufacturing know-how and covers every component that goes into the assembly of the finished product but also includes sub components,machining tools,diagnostic equipment,raw materials, chemicals and additives.

This includes, but is not limited to, design and manufacturing know-how, technical data, keystone equipment, and inspection and test equipment. It includes discrete parameters for systems; equipment; subassemblies; components; and critical materials; unique test, inspection, and production equipment; unique software, development, production, and use know-how
http://www.dtic.mil/mctl/MCTL/Sec01MCTLg.pdf

There is limited cost benefit from cheap labor with regard to precision engineering, for instance the bulk head on the Rafale is machine cut from a single block of titanium. A process that takes a machine nearly 48 hours to complete one piece, the dimension of end product is measured by laser to satisfy compliance with engineering tolerance - an error of one nanometer may fall outside acceptable error threshold.

Several of the machines, raw materials and diagnostic equipment are not available outside the United States and is export restricted by the MILITARILY CRITICAL TECHNOLOGIES LIST (MCTL). These equipment, components and raw materials are available to our allies like France, UK and Germany but cannot be re-exported without permission of the US government.

Several member claim the IP is 100% French, but this claim is dubious when you consider every component, assembly, sub component and sub assembly,machining tools, diagnostic equipment and raw material that is required to make the finished product.

Parallel to the Eurofighter commitment, TITAL is seeing positive business developments in the engine sector. Currently the investment casting specialist casts, machines and assembles titanium castings for the M88 engine which is used in the supersonic transport Rafale manufactured by the French company Dassault.
TITAL GmbH established as Supplier for Engine Manufacturer | TITAL® - The very best in castings

Lets examine the above statement that appears on the TITAL website,

"Currently the investment casting specialist casts, machines and assembles titanium castings for the M88 engine which is used in the supersonic transport Rafale"

To the causal reader it may appear that TITAL makes some inconsequential components for the Rafale M-88 engine, but its not the case. Investment casting is a 5000 year old technique to turn a wax pattern into a metal product. But the process of investment casting for high performance jet engine components is extremely complex. Depending on the desired properties of the end product
the process involves complex chemical treatment, heating and cooling to obtain a fine micro structure directionally solidified single crystal cast. This IP and manufacturing know-how belongs to TITAL Germany and not Snecma France. The export restricted 3DP process and machines for creating airfoils is licensed to a handful of firms worldwide with the exception of one Japanese firm the others are all American - Is this IP and manufacturing know-how French? - certainly not it is American!

So far I've only covered some engine components to debunk the notion that the Rafale is 100% French IP. I quote this figure from memory for a mere 90 Rafale's manufactured so far - do you really think the French have the money,industrial base or the scientific know-how for 100% local IP?

I am willing to be proved wrong, so please provide credible evidence and verifiable facts to support 100% French IP for the Rafale.
 
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luckyy

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Russian Air Force Chief Inquires About MiG-35 Biting Dust In MMRCA


there was a concerted negative campaign to oust the MiG-35 from the competition..
hope that this negative campaign may won't effect the mmrca outcame..
 

p2prada

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Several of the machines, raw materials and diagnostic equipment are not available outside the United States and is export restricted by the MILITARILY CRITICAL TECHNOLOGIES LIST (MCTL). These equipment, components and raw materials are available to our allies like France, UK and Germany but cannot be re-exported without permission of the US government.
Then can you explain why we have the technical know how and capability to build and modify the Greenpine radar by ourselves.

Several member claim the IP is 100% French, but this claim is dubious when you consider every component, assembly, sub component and sub assembly,machining tools, diagnostic equipment and raw material that is required to make the finished product.
As long as the French can make it on their own, so can we.

Lets examine the above statement that appears on the TITAL website,

"Currently the investment casting specialist casts, machines and assembles titanium castings for the M88 engine which is used in the supersonic transport Rafale"
Tital makes castings based on specifications specified by SNECMA. They can pass on those specifications to other companies without any problems. SNECMA would have outsourced the work only to save more money. Thus the IP is still held by SNECMA.

America never allowed transfer of technology of the Greenpine or the radar itself to India. Only the 2075 Phalcon was given clearance. Somehow we have it and this was back in 2002. We use American processes to manufacture the T/R modules and you will find them in the MCTL list. This was before the sanctions we had were even lifted.

So far I've only covered some engine components to debunk the notion that the Rafale is 100% French IP. I quote this figure from memory for a mere 90 Rafale's manufactured so far - do you really think the French have the money,industrial base or the scientific know-how for 100% local IP?

I am willing to be proved wrong, so please provide credible evidence and verifiable facts to support 100% French IP for the Rafale.
I cannot give proof on something you will not find in open source. But Manufacturing processes can be replicated with little investment if the partner company has already worked on such technology. It isn't hard and has been done before. IP is different from manufacturing techniques. IP gives the specific weight and dimensions of the component while the Manufacturing process covers a number of different sizes and weights that are adjusted to suit the component manufactured.

Whatever Tital manufactures for SNECMA is property of SNECMA. Tital cannot replicate the same thing and sell it to some one else. That's IPR. The French will simply sell the same technology to India under a different name since the manufacturing process already exists with them. It is something the Israelis have been doing for us against American wishes. The Greenpine is called Swordfish in India.
 

RPK

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IAF to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircraft soon - India - DNA


Indian Air Force today said it will acquire 126 latest multi-fighter aircrafts within a year.

"We are in the final stages of placing orders to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircrafts from US, France or Sweden within a year," Air Marshal Anil Chopra told reporters during his visit to the Sainik School here.

Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) would also be added to the air force soon, he said.

Chopra, who belongs to Kapurthala and a pass out from the Sainik School, later interacted with the students.
 

Agantrope

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IAF to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircraft soon - India - DNA


Indian Air Force today said it will acquire 126 latest multi-fighter aircrafts within a year.

"We are in the final stages of placing orders to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircrafts from US, France or Sweden within a year," Air Marshal Anil Chopra told reporters during his visit to the Sainik School here.

Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) would also be added to the air force soon, he said.

Chopra, who belongs to Kapurthala and a pass out from the Sainik School, later interacted with the students.
This broked the news. F-18, Rafale, and Gripen? EF not in the final contender list little bit :emot0:
 

luckyy

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This broked the news. F-18, Rafale, and Gripen? EF not in the final contender list little bit :emot0:
i thnk Air Marshal Anil Chopra just like to cut short his sentance , other wise he has to name four europien nation to figureout EFT ..

.
 

keshtopatel

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Rafale with 100 million dollars tag is very expensive, when compared to other contenders. It seems like India is spending money on defense as if there is no tommorow, yet I think there has to balance as to what we buy and at what price.
 

Rama

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iaf and the gov of india must learn to make desions and stand by it india has never shown the world that it is capable of making desions very very sad indeed
 

neo29

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Air Marshal Anil Chopra specifically mentions 3 countries US, France or Sweden. Thats interesting
 
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