MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[StealthSniper]

^^^ Stealthsniper and civfanatic

You seem to get a notion that i support US. I dont and am dead against US fighters and any lethal technological hardware where they can arm twist us.

Soviet has helped us a lot. Its Russia that has been taking us for a ride selling expensive hardware without support and spares which has costed us huge in terms of maintenance for years. Not to mention dud bombs which puts our national security at stake.

Yes true we depended on them extensively since we did not have any other option, but Russia did take undue advantage of this and acted as a businessman rather than an ally, by selling us at costly rates and ofcourse with quality not upto the mark.

You say if we did not have hardware from Russia we would be 2 decades behind. Matter of fact we are 2 decades behind coz of Russia coz our babus and generals opted for russian arms and not giving much importance to indigenously made until 10 years back. We still have soviet era hardware in our forces which clearly make us 2 decades behind.

Seems you have forgotten the more recent Gorskhy pricing and Su-30 mki pricing which our foolish establishment accepted coz we have no other alternative. We had even killed Arjun mbt for russian T-90. MMRCA is a opportunity to look beyond Russia. You complain about Scorpene deal but dont know details that it was we who were building it and delaying it so as to increasing costs. Mirage deal we did have option of Israeli upgrade still went for French coz of quality of upgrade. Are these 2 deals strong enough to overshadow all the "taken for ride" deals we did with Russia ??? I dont think so ...

First of all, I don't want to go off topic, but the Gorshkov pricing was correct and our government didn't correctly assess how much work needed to be done to get the Gorshkov operating again. Secondly, if you notice with most of our deals with foreign countries, we are not clear in our contracts about what needs to be done and the timeframe for when it needs to be completed, (this is not their fault it's our incompetence that's hurting us). Also I don't care what you say, us having OLD SOVIET EQUIPMENT is not Russia's fault it's ours and even now we are delaying the MMRCA and other deals WAY TO LONG so blame our corrupt politicians for the state we are in right now. But still, because Russia has given us different technologies when we buy their equipment, it has helped our indigenous development immensely with joint ventures and other projects we are doing on the side. A few examples are Bhramos, Arihant and other nuclear technologies that we can incorporate in our nuclear reactors etc.

Now again I look at India interest, and everybody knows that I love indigenous development and for me I am always going to side with the country that has helped us the most in that area (Russia). Now at the same time I am open to European and American companies offering us military equipment to help equip our forces and if the F-16, F-18, or Rafale, Eurofighter win, we will see how this works in INDIA's favor. But overall, I am deeply disappointed that India can't do things indigenously when we have the talent, the money, but don't have the will to do it.

And in a nutshell that's what's wrong with India, we don't have a backbone and we have corrupt politicians and that's why other countries take advantage of us and also inhibit indigenous development.

 

[anoop_mig25]

47 year frienship doesnt mean they sell us dud bombs, costly hardware, no spares and support. Russia thinks India needs us always and we can extract as much as we can from them. The latest case being when India wanted to ink the 5th gen fighter JV but Russia said it was not needed. They just want to sell as everything coz they think we need them most. Lets get practically unlike Soviet union, Russia will not come to help us in any military conflict. Our current deal with them is enough to gain their support in UN for any resolution etc. 10 billion to someone with bad delays, support and a paper plane will be the most foolish decision any establishment may have made.

one question aren`t India is partner with Russians in fifth - generation plane development. i am getting confused? some says we are while some say`s we aren`t . is it necessary to ink JV in order to became partners in its development if yes then why aren`t inking it or why is Russia is dyning us

 

[Armand2REP]

one question aren`t India is partner with Russians in fifth - generation plane development. i am getting confused? some says we are while some say`s we aren`t . is it necessary to ink JV in order to became partners in its development if yes then why aren`t inking it or why is Russia is dyning us

No, India is not a partner with PAK FA... yet. The deal has not been signed. They are haggling over how much India is going to participate. Russia wants India to have 25% workshare only dealing with composites and software while they get to keep all the work on avionics hardware, engines and weapon systems. Considering they want India to foot half the bill with $5 billion, and buy 75% of all aircraft, it is a terrible deal for India. Russia will only buy 50 while India wants 3-4X more than that.

 

[StealthSniper]

I am going to gauge the success of the MMRCA (whoever wins) on how much technology and knowhow we gain and how we add that to our own industrial development. If we just make the planes and don't get any meaningful tech for our own projects, the MMRCA is a failure and it's a waste of money. We should instead put 10+ billion into our own infastructure and maybe the plane we make won't be that good, but it will put money in India's pocket and not other countries.

 

[bhramos]

As far as Gorshkov... Russia BREACHED the contract. Plain and simple.

offtopic
but The Gorshkov was Built in Ukraine, and so could not get the Blue prints, so it had to be recalculated........

 

[StealthSniper]

Nose section of the Gripen NG on display, with the IRST Skyward Selex AESA radar and ES-05 Raven.

 

[StealthSniper]

F/A-18 Hornet's "Falling Leaf" -mode.

 

[Agantrope]

As far as Gorshkov... Russia BREACHED the contract. Plain and simple.

OT OT OT!!!
How can the blueprint of the ship exists with the Russians when it was built in the Ukraine

 

[Armand2REP]

F/A-18 Hornet's "Falling Leaf" -mode.

More like Failing Crash mode...

 

[luckyy]

Their relevance is not quickly drying up, we have options and we are looking for different opportunities and that is all. Even I think that the Mig-35 is not what India needs, but Russia will always be close to India and until some other country offers us Nuclear or stealth technologies (with no strings attached) then nobody is coming close to India's closest ally which is Russia. We have a 47 year relationship with Russia and India is doing things to benefit it's interest while Russia will do their things to benefit them. So far, we gained far more from Russia then they gained from us and India would be stupid to pull away from Russia and go with America (who alliance with our enemy and make us sign numerous agreements).

if mig-35 fills all opertional requirements if mmrca tender , why not mig-35 should be selected....

and this concept of life cycle cost to my view are meaningless when it comes to war machines , we should be going for a war maschine which can win a war and not the one which keep running for years at low cost,the the three hours performence at war counts more then 30 years of flying....

 

[anoop_mig25]

No, India is not a partner with PAK FA... yet. The deal has not been signed. They are haggling over how much India is going to participate. Russia wants India to have 25% workshare only dealing with composites and software while they get to keep all the work on avionics hardware, engines and weapon systems. Considering they want India to foot half the bill with $5 billion, and buy 75% of all aircraft, it is a terrible deal for India. Russia will only buy 50 while India wants 3-4X more than that.

lets go with avionics hardware and engine , indians should bargain hard with this on russian .let russian to develop other parts. i think we are good composites,weapons,software . what d u think mate.

And if russian aren`t interested then we should part away it and find another country willing to develop 5 generation plane in JV.i think there hell lot of countries there willing to develop 5 generation plane in jv what d u think of Israel, Sweden ? may be japan

 

[anoop_mig25]

@zorvar why bring muslims non-muslims into it . is in`t our gov having silent relations with isreal till today (although upa 1 had cpi(m) as their colation partner) . our goi is already collaborating with them and they are also happy helping us in many defence related materials. so why not a 5 gen craft?

 

[neo29]

@LUCKYY

When you spend such a huge chunk of money on fighters, you expect the best deal and not the one you usually had all these years. IAF and MoD clearly wants a fighter not only to meet their requirements but also a next generation one with advanced avionics and a ToT where they can acquire new knowledge and technological advancement. Mig-35 clearly doesnt impress in this field. If we upgrade our Mig-29's with aesa, there aint much difference from Mig-35.

Keeping the total dependency on Russian aside, if Mig-35 was that worthy plane there was no harm to considering it, but unfortunately it is not.

Russia must be really thinking low of us when they think that modifying the Mig-29 into a new fighter will impress India and they will buy it coz they buy everything from us. Choosing Mig-35 will be a biggest embarrassment for India coz the world will know that India bends to arm twisting and politics easily even when they have opportunity to buy the best.

 

[ashish3640]

I wonder Still how long it will take to decide?

 

[nrj]

I wonder Still how long it will take to decide?

Welcome to forum ashish3640....

MRCA decision might take another year. In the meanwhile shortlists can be expected....

 

[luckyy]

I wonder Still how long it will take to decide?

don't you think it's decided .....
mmrca tender for Eurofighter .....and 60-70 MIG-35 outside the mmrca tender..

 

[nrj]

India Discussing Offsets With Fighter Bidders

Following the Indian air force's flight evaluation of six Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) candidates, the Indian government is now considering technical offset proposals and beginning discussions with the prospective vendors.

The Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft program.

A European contender was invited to the Indian air force's head office on Aug. 20 to discuss the flight evaluation and has been invited to the defense ministry to present its offset proposal. The vendor's team includes all partners associated with the bid, including the airframe manufacturer, weapons suppliers, avionics and engine makers.

The second part of the proposal — commercial offsets — is expected to be opened by April 2011.

"Those that make it to the downselect will be evaluated on the technical report, compliance with transfer of technology and with offsets," a senior official said.

"Everything depends on the supply chain," an official involved in the flight evaluations said. "The air force is also aware that it requires good management systems and an auto-diagnostic capability."

"India needs to pit the lowest bidder against the second lowest bidder — a practice it tends not to follow — to get the best deal," another official noted. "[There] is no point in deciding on a finalist and beating him further down to size."

Given the challenges of life-cycle costs, India has made it clear that maintenance support will be essential to the offer.

Source

 

[Daredevil]

BAE presses technology-transfer track record in Indian Typhoon campaign

Garwood declares himself "very pleased" with the performance of the Typhoon in flying evaluations, while acknowledging that "it's what the Indian air force think that counts". Declining to speculate on the likely timescale for a decision by the air force, he notes: "They're playing this as an absolutely straight-bat competition."

The Typhoon is up against the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG for the Indian contract.

The Typhoon is also participating in a Japanese fighter competition geared toward sourcing 40-50 aircraft to replace McDonnell Douglas F-4s. Its Japanese campaign is led jointly by Alenia and BAE Systems, and Garwood considers it to have "a very good chance" of success, again citing the consortium's willingness to transfer technology. Competition for Japan's business will come from the F/A-18.

In a bid to boost BAE Systems' Japanese prospects, Tony Ennis was appointed to serve as its president of north-east Asia from a base in Tokyo. He took up the position on 1 January.

The company will shortly host an event aimed at showcasing its technological innovations to the Japanese market.

On the Typhoon's prospects in Oman, BAE Systems comments: "The UK government announced Oman's intention to procure Eurofighter Typhoon earlier this year, and BAE Systems is continuing to work closely with both governments to reach agreement for the supply of this new-generation fighter to meet Oman's national defence needs for the next 20-30 years."

Typhoon business is also being sought in Romania, Turkey and Qatar, and the type will be offered to Switzerland should that nation's mooted fighter contest proceed.

Garwood says BAE Systems has received "an unprecedented level of prime ministerial support" from the UK since David Cameron took office in May, and notes a generally "increased tempo to the government's support" since the Cameron-led coalition formed.

"The coalition wants to get the country out of recession and they see manufacturing and exporting as a way to do it," asserts Garwood. "With the level of government support we're getting now, I'm very confident we'll get a lot more success over the next few years."

 

[Daredevil]

 

[Daredevil]

A very good Eurofighter Promo