MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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Daredevil

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X_posting from another forum

Problem with American fighters and strings attached

Usually, all the American fighters comes with strings which end-users don't like.

A random selection of examples:

Malaysia and the F/A-18: Mahathir Mohammad on F/A-18s & the US:


Brazils experiences with US ITAR et al.

Brazilian brigadier bashes US defense export policies on YouTube - The DEW Line

UK (and others) tough issues with JSF technology transfer:

UK Leads Growing Backlash Against JSF

ITAR Fallout: Britain to Pull Out of F-35 JSF Program?
 
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Armand2REP

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No one ever reported it was approved... the news was the IAF trial evaluations findings say IAF wants to shortlist Rafale, Eurofighter, and possibly SH if they offer better engines. Clearly IAF wants a dual-engine fighter, LCA will be the single engine so that makes sense. As for point two, life-cycle costs are obviously important as the evaluations complain about RD-33MK TBO being a problem. As for point three, none of the cheapest were selected so it is not the criteria for IAF, not to say FinMin might say something different. As for point four, a trials evaluation will list the plus and minus of each aircraft, MoD will have to choose but they have a guideline to go by for what IAF wants. Point five, export license is not the concern of IAF so that wouldn't be in the evaluations report, that is what MoD will have to decide based on the offers and track records of the nation's reputations.
 

vijay jagannathan

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Israel advising India is nothing but US trying backdoor entry. They as already mentioned will try every trick in the book to dump one of the 2 teens on India and hold her to a ransom at will.
 

slenke

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Israel advising India is nothing but US trying backdoor entry. They as already mentioned will try every trick in the book to dump one of the 2 teens on India and hold her to a ransom at will.
And Israel can sell India updates in the future.
 

neo29

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Thats old news but Israel is advising India to buy F-16 obviously has US hand. Though Israel will help us with f-16 avionics and other upgrades in future but it will not be without the permission of Big Daddy US.

What armand2rep said above is true, Why will India go for a single engine fighter for such an expensive deal when they already have mirage 2000 upgrades and LCA fighters around 200 in pipeline.

If they see only costs we may not be having most of our weapons. Establishment also sees quality and plus points. For such a costly deal they will see something that is new in the market to use it for years to come and not something as old as our mig-29s.
 

luckyy

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X_posting from another forum

Problem with American fighters and strings attached

Usually, all the American fighters comes with strings which end-users don't like.

A random selection of examples:

Malaysia and the F/A-18: Mahathir Mohammad on F/A-18s & the US:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSjgOcFdI9Y

Brazils experiences with US ITAR et al.

Brazilian brigadier bashes US defense export policies on YouTube - The DEW Line

UK (and others) tough issues with JSF technology transfer:

UK Leads Growing Backlash Against JSF

ITAR Fallout: Britain to Pull Out of F-35 JSF Program?
it says all...........................
 

Kunal Biswas

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Indian Fighter Downselect Coming
Aviation week , August 12




With flight trials complete, the downselect process has begun for the six candidate fighters in India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, a competition with a $10 billion-plus payday for providing 126 aircraft.

Opinions vary widely among observers on how long it will take to narrow the field to two finalists from among the MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Some speculate an announcement might come in just two weeks. Others insist it will take much longer to evaluate the extensive technical reports that the tests have produced. Regardless, a commercial bidding process will follow the announcement. Final selection is to be made by the end of 2011.

Trials included 643 test points. Results are being forwarded as tabulated data without a quantification of the level of compliance achieved, a senior Indian air force official reports. "We have done an objective assessment and are taking into account the needs of national security," he says. But cost and politics will play a role in the defense ministry's selection, he acknowledges.

French President Sarkozy's visit to India this year is expected to be followed by a host of inducements, including a large transfer of technology, on behalf of the Rafale.
[...]
Beyond informal briefings said to already have taken place, the six manufacturers are to receive a 250-page technical evaluation of how they did. Problems during the trials included the failures of engines and large electromechanical actuation systems.
[...]
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener..._p0-247576.xml
 

nrj

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It is ridiculous to see how Indian Media is covering MRCA now. As the deal is getting closer, everyone has suddenly realized to report it. Without insight or study, journalists are claiming many stuff. Unfortunate is unknown viewer who accepts the misguiding news while disgusted is the follower curious on the proceeding of MRCA.

However, I think its fair to share all reports here.
I would just highlight the yesterday's report from NEWS X Channel on MRCA. The channel has reported that the IAF has put the follow on order of 74 aircrafts on original 126 units making total number to be at least 200 while the valuation of deal will be 20+ billion USDs. I couldn't find the online link for the same as it seems to be non-existent. I can hardly believe the news considering the very-next report on SU MKI by the same channel, which said IAF is going to have 330+ MKIs & the foolish MOD is procuring MKI at the price of F35. Journalist said the unit cost of MKI is now equal to the same of F35.
:emot15: :emot15:
 
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Armand2REP

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Already posted, check #394, and debunked #402. You folks get too excited over blogs.
 

vijay jagannathan

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]its mischoosing a single engine airccraft for cost effectiveness will prejudice strike and penetrative effectiveness and there won't be any credibility for the MRCA purchase. MRCA plane will be replacing Jaguar and Mig 27 which are primarily bombers. though i hate to admit it the SH is an excellent replacement for its cost and its AESA but its the US behaviour that is totally off putting. We simply cannot ignore their whimsical attitude.

SH is a bombtruck that can penetrate into the heart of china effectively accomplishing its mission especially if it is escorted by a MKI air superiority fighter.

I don't think any present day single engine fighter can do that and return to base safely whatever generation it may belong to. So I think the rafale is the only other option and hopefully by the time India is ready to take delivery the AESA would be ready or India's own AESA would have to be ready.
A naval version of Rafale and 2 seater version adds to the desirability plus its payload and range. Is there much to debate about? so talk of buying a f-16 is simply waste of time. it does not have a role in IAF even if its good plane.
 

neo29

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May be the news channels and magazine get money from contenders to print reports and articles favorable to them. Just a speculation.

Interesting thing is most of the media always includes EF as one of the short listed fighters. I personally feel that Shiv Aroor has always been a Gripen and Rafale fan. All these leaks may be done by IAF mostly to make sure the public know whats going on and keep their eyes on the establishment to pick the best fighter and not to bend down under pressure.

But seriously why will India buy single engine planes when it plans 200 LCA and already has 75 mirage 2000 which are both Single engine. India will mostly buy 100 ej200 engines and another 100 engines will be kaveri with Snecma partnership. Since they planning to make Kaveri suitable for AMCA project, a JV with Snecma will be surely happening. I am not sure if Eurojet favors developing Kaveri in JV. So its but obvious that EF or Rafale is on the cards. Both are offering goodies for other developments too. More so EADS.

IAF shortlist the fighters it wants but the establishment will not only see political but also in a business point of view which EF and Rafale offering.

Politically more than India, US needs India as it sees a powerful ally in the region near its volatile Af Pak operations and to counter against China. Russia has enjoyed all the defence deals with us over the years and one deal going off wont bother them. Europe is the region where India needs to build a firm hold. Uk and France already favor India. Germany is a pivot between Pak and India. Remember Pak does have good defence relation with Germany.
 

Kunal Biswas

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]its mischoosing a single engine airccraft for cost effectiveness will prejudice strike and penetrative effectiveness and there won't be any credibility for the MRCA purchase.

I don't think any present day single engine fighter can do that and return to base safely whatever generation it may belong to.

Is there much to debate about? so talk of buying a f-16 is simply waste of time. it does not have a role in IAF even if its good plane.

Indeed, but Single are more prone to crash when Engine fameout, for example look at MIG-27/23 crashes with MIG-29 ( Both Fighters are purchased during same era ) in IAF..

Viper IN is outstanding fighter offered to India, but Pak-F16 52s have marginal difference with F16IN, the radar-crossection of both aircrafts are same and will defeinatly create confusion on SAM radars ( RUSSIAN ), also surveillance radars..

SH is a bombtruck that can penetrate into the heart of china effectively accomplishing its mission especially if it is escorted by a MKI air superiority fighter.
SH is quite capable for defending itself in BVR also in dogfights, as with SH we will get newer aim-120s and newer AIM-9X with 70-90 degree bore sights..
 

Rahul Singh

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SH is a bombtruck that can penetrate into the heart of china effectively accomplishing its mission especially if it is escorted by a MKI air superiority fighter.
SH simply lack the range to go anything like deep into China and you will not be flying refuellers deep into China. Its only the MKI which has the capability to hit deep into China that is why IAF is buying more and more of MKIs.
 

nrj

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The MRCA chosen needs to have lesser RCS than any other fighter in IAF inventory. The RCS disadvantage of MKI makes it improper to carry out operations in dense detection stations or the AWACS operational range. However MKI is not meant for that.

MKI is a heavy fighter & can't be actual replacement of MRCA IMO. MKI is best at the Air Superiority position. IAF is looking for fighter of medium weight. The selected MRCA needs to have proven A2G & A2A capability. And regarding proven capability, barely couple of fighters stand still among others. The single-engine fighters in contest are not at any disadvantage. This has been discussed quite sometime back.
 

prateikf

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As per the reports the deal would only be signed by 2012 should everything go well. the crazy minister antony may even cancel the contract after it has been signed(helicopter deal) or he may blacklist all the companies involved(artillery saga) or he may simply re issue the RFI again. In these difficult times we should heave a sign of relief if a contract is concluded in an orderly manner.
 

nrj

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IAF can add advanced features if it selects Super Hornets: Boeing

NEW DELHI (PTI): US aviation major Boeing Wednesday said if India selects its Super Hornets for its USD 11 billion deal for 126 multirole combat aircraft, it will be allowed to add advanced capabilities in the fighters as per future requirements.

"India would be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could enhance future Indian Super Hornets... This (roadmap) will give the Indian Air Force flexibility over the years if they want to integrate or insert new technologies," Boeing Defence, Space and Security India head Vivek Lall told PTI here.

Boeing's F/A-18 E/F fighter aircraft is one of the six contenders in the race for supplying 126 multi-role combat aircraft to the IAF for the deal.

The company has recently announced a US Navy-funded and Boeing-developed International Super Hornet roadmap for the next 40 years which plans for maturing technologies and inserting them in the aircraft.

"Boeing also has a growth plan for international customers to ensure that Super Hornet meets the needs of international air forces such as the Indian Air Force which may differ from US' requirements," he added.

Lall said some of the technologies offered in the roadmap are already there in the aircraft on offer to the IAF.

The roadmap will offer capabilities for enhanced survivability and enemy detection capabilities to its customers.


Source
 

vikramrana_1812

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F 18 Super Hornet Staying Out in Front

St Louis. In the movie industry, it's called a sleeper – a film that doesn't seem to grab much publicity initially but turns out to be great film.

The Super Hornet could be considered a sleeper of the aerospace industry. Through its gradual spiral development, the F/A-18E/F has quietly become a devastating force for the United States and its allies. It offers real and immediate capabilities for today's forces, and the program team ensures that it's keenly in tune with forthcoming war.ghting needs.

The Super Hornet is the most capable weapons system in the air today and for the foreseeable future. And we are continually adding new capability and upgrading or refining systems so that our customer doesn't have to wait for something to become available.

Boeing is currently building Super Hornets under a contract with the US Navy, and in May 2007, Australia signed a contract for 24 of the jets.

The Super Hornet will remain in the US inventory well beyond the year 2030, thereby assuring India of a supportable, upgradeable program with minimal risk. have to wait for something to become available.

Boeing is currently building Super Hornets under a contract with the US Navy, and in May 2007, Australia signed a contract for 24 of the jets.

The Super Hornet will remain in the US inventory well beyond the year 2030, thereby assuring India of a supportable, upgradeable program with minimal risk.

From the beginning, the Super Hornet program de.ed conventional aircraft design, which dictated that upgrades be incorporated in "blocks" – adding several capabilities at once.

While the Super Hornet divides its aircraft into blocks for planning purposes, each engineering change is incorporated into aircraft in the assembly process as soon as a new single capability is ready.

From the beginning, the Super Hornet program de.ed conventional aircraft design, which dictated that upgrades be incorporated in "blocks" – adding several capabilities at once.

While the Super Hornet divides its aircraft into blocks for planning purposes, each engineering change is incorporated into aircraft in the assembly process as soon as a new single capability is ready.

New capabilities are retroffited, as available, on earlier models. As a result, the customer always has the most capable aircraft in its squadrons, be it on an airbase or a ight deck.

Boeing currently is delivering Block Super Hornets, with new systems and upgrades that have been added incrementally over the past two years.

Although the Super Hornet team has been increasing the aircraft's capabilities, it's also strongly focused on decreasing the aircraft's unit cost.

We have generated almost 2 billion in savings to the US government through our first two multi-year procurements. We are prepared to drive the cost down even further and are committed to continually providing the new systems the customer wants and needs at the lowest possible cost.

SYSTEMS MAKE A DIFFERENCE

The F/A-18E/F Super Hornets flying today are already equipped with many next-generation technologies and capabilities. The new systems aren't usually visible to the casual observer, but they make significant differences to the men and women who fly – and fight – in these jets.

One of the newest advances is the plane's advanced sensors and radar, the APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, provided by F/A-18 program teammate Raytheon.

AESA expands the Super Hornet's lethality to beyond the range of weapons or platforms that might be threat against it.

Many of the advanced technologies that are operational on the Super Hornet today, such as the AESA radar, are only long-term, developmental promises being made by many other aircraft manufacturers.

The Super Hornet also boasts an advanced targeting pod, known as the Advanced Targeting Forward Looking Infrared (ATFLIR), for exceptional air-to-ground performance, as well as a Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) for enhanced aircrew situational awareness and combat lethality.

With a total of 11 weapon stations, the Super Hornet also provides extraordinary payload flexibility by carrying a meaningful load of air-to-air and air-to-ground ordnance. A typical loadout for a self-escort strike mission includes the advanced targeting pod, one AIM-120 AMRAAM, and two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles.

This leaves seven weapon stations available to carry a variety of weapons and other stores.

These are just a few of more than a dozen major systems, upgrades and re.nements Boeing and its industry partners have added to the aircraft since it was first introduced. The Super Hornets made today are way beyond the capabilities of the earlier versions.

As important as these capabilities are today, the Super Hornet has never rested on its laurels.

The team – a best-of-industry teaming of the US Navy, Boeing, and its major subcontractors, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Electric – has a "Flight Plan" in place that defines what's next for the Super Hornet.

That includes distributed targeting; net-centric operations and battlespace management; sensor integration; and advanced weapons.

The Super Hornet is continually evolving to meet customers' needs. People talk about aircraft generations. We think those lines are blurred; we think of the Super Hornet as Next Generation because it's continually evolving to stay ahead of the threat.

Our mission from day one has been to provide today what our customers will need tomorrow. And we've made that mission a reality."
 
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