MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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thakur_ritesh

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is eurofighter at 110m usd really that expensive for india to afford? the additional order for 42 Su30MKIs is for worth Rs20,107 crore, which when converted to usd is worth atleast 104m usd/unit. the other thing that comes with EFT or for that matter with mmrca is the 50% offset clause which is not there with the deal for flankers.

but then we might be talking about EFT and rafale, and who knows the GoI would be discussing f18 because what america gets on board politically no one else does.
 

gogbot

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Why do people forget 25% slashes on European fighters??
Link please , i did not think that price info was announced or released.
 

vijay jagannathan

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Oye luckky lucky oye

Tera Mig 35 ud gaya pur pur This is what I wrote on 7 June 2010

"-------------- that leaves us with Rafale which is neither in the Gripen class nor in the F18 class but subserves the multirole beautifully. rumours of it being eliminated from MRCA was clearly instigated by vested interests who had put 2 and 2 togather and known long ago that Rafale would win not because it is the best but because it s the most common sensical buy inhj india's perspective. lack of worldwide orders is a boon infact considering quick delivery. rafale will have commonality,advanced radar and twin engine witha naval version all of which is positive in the indian context and YES i do imagine rafale as the first line of defence if the Indians cannot resist the French kiss. France has served India well when USA was tugging at our pants. They are no nonsense and will transer full TOT and they mean it when they say it. Yes its expensive but not as expensive as EF,snecma engines could improve Kaveri's chances,and if the Indians can drive a hard bargain it will be a win win situation.

My heart beats for Gripen NG----- my sentiment cries for EF even though it exceeds our purpose cause it is a once in a lifetime buy---- the winner would be Rafale which is marketed by a trustworthy Govt,is 4.5 with AESA, is multirole, has a naval version and India can take the liberty of petting france during the french Kiss. "

Now clap your hands for me!!!!
 

ppgj

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One problem that remains is the radar. What if there is any delay in making the aesa to the standard of APG79 of not better by the time the integration takes place? it will throw our program off track. Will there be a penalty clause? Yes all the manufacturers are working on the aesa, but then things can go wrong while developing high tech stuff.
right. this is what i was referring to in my last post when i said - EFT gamble is "fraught with risks".

OTOH RBE2 is already in the final stages of being ready to be operational in 2012.

http://defense-update.com/features/du-1-07/aesaradar_rafale.htm

some claim it would be equivalent to APG 79 but this needs to be taken with a pinch of salt as this is their first attempt. power and cooling requirements are a big head ache considering the M88 -2 will require higher power output. this is being worked on thro' "eco core" as part of M883.

however APG 79 will not come in it's full configuration (if we go with FA 18E/F) as with USN - which Raytheon has publicly stated, i would guess RBE 2 would be acceptable.

as to the penalty clause etc.. i am not aware of these.

If boeing then promises to work on the thrust to weight ratio then it would be in the reckoning. Wonder if that can be done.
exactly. infact Boeing is looking for an export customer for the FA 18E/F with high thrust EPE engine with a 20% higher thrust. i guess the customer will need to fund this new venture. of course they will get a "royalty" on any such engine sold similar to the UAE funding of F 16 block 60 Radar.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...et-seeks-export-sale-to-launch-20-thrust.html

as to the FA 18E/F in the reckoning oh well.. i very much beleive so. irrespective of how one looks at it, IMO FA 18e/f is a very potent aircraft "fitting" the role of "striker" in the IAF which is pretty absent with Mig 27s on the way out and Jaguars without a radar and needing escorts - facts i have dealt with in my other posts. this also becomes relevant when SU 30MKIs will continue to do their "air dominance" role in the IAF with Mig 29SMTs, Mirage 2000 -5s, LCAs as the second line of air defence.

The problem is that as per staff req none of the fighters are complete in all aspects and we will be stuck up on the promises each of the manufacturers make. One disadvantage of depending on imports I would say.
that is correct. this is also because the fighters are designed for the requirements of the respective countries. for ex FA 18E/F was never designed as dog fight A2A fighters. this explains their 7.5 g load factor. however it makes up for that with superior situational awareness via the AESA radar and most recent avionics. while not getting into knife fight SH will try and knock off the adversary at BVR range. it would be difficult for the best of the fighters with greater maneurability to engage SH because of it's superior electronics.

here is a video though heavily biased in favour of SH -


in simulated exercises an EA 18G growler killed an F 22 - the link of which i gave earlier in one of my posts.

i would be happy if IAF goes for this provided GOI works out favourable agreements with the US administration, a difficult job though.

last word has not been spoken yet. let's wait for Obama to come in and say what he wants to say.

but my preference would still be Rafale which would be great both in terms of A2A & A2G.

Its quite funny that the fighter that was all but ruled out in various reports coming in a few months back is now a firm favorite. Makes a mickey out of many. Rafale is back in the reckoning. EF too despite its problems.
i agree with you. Dassault was the most quieter among all while EFT for obvious reasons was going full throttle.

my own guess is that "times now" report is at best speculation. one never knows considering the high profile visits lined up with Sarkozy and Obama still to come post Cameron's visit.

there is still sting left in the tail.

Wonder still if there is that last twist in events regarding the americans. I don't think they will give up so easily.
very valid and i agree.
 
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JAISWAL

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india had not signed euma & other aggrement with usa. so will they allow us to use mil-grade navigation on other a/c
 

JAISWAL

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As all a/c other than mig35 use gps navgation 4 pricision ground attack. so isnt it a draw back 4 all western a/c
 

Armand2REP

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here is a video though heavily biased in favour of SH -

German MiG-29A against a Suisse legacy Hornet, not SH. Luftwaffe MiG-29s already proved they could dust USN Hornets in a dog-fight. It seems like everyone beats them in dog-fights, Rafale, F-15, F-16, MiG-29.
 
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dove

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Giving such a long term strategic sale to USA is as good as signing the NPT, giving Kashmir to Pakistan and becoming US slaves - that too by paying full price. We may have common interests and values with US, but in the end the US govt is a dangerous snake that will bite anyone or anything to suit its purposes. This is one country in the world that does not care about any written commitments. Their congress and their courts believe they have the right to rule over the whole world and they define what is good for america is good for world. I have had to deal with US businesses and US courts. The way they define jurisdiction is that if any one has ever passed through a US city for any purpose and even bought a cup of tea, in theory it can bring you under that US court's jurisdiction because you have 'done business' in US. Their mindset (not just the politicians, but people at senior positions in all fields) is just amazing for the sense of power and entitlement over the whole world. They talk about the 'long arm of US law' which has power to pass judgement on any matter that affects americans anywhere in the world. They can just pass a new law in congress and invalidate any previous international agreement. US courts will agree and that's all they care. Agreements with US are not even worth the paper its written on.

Please remember how they attacked Mexico and took over all their land from Texas to California. Other countries will call it military expansion or at least admit they are using force for selfish purpose. But US called it 'Manifest Destiny'. For them GOD is an american and they can lie, kill, cheat and do whatever it takes to ensure America gets what it wants. Being an American Patriot is not too far from being an Islamic fundamentalist, only a lot more sophisticated.

We should do business with Americans as long as they are one-off purchases where once we get initial delivery and pay money there is no more control in their hands. Giving the MRCA order where we are dependent on US for spares is as good as giving Pakistan a victory over us. From then on every demand Pakistan makes of US to force India to do something, they will be in a position to force us.

It does not matter whether US weapons are good or not, because they will only work against us and not for us.
 

Armand2REP

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Why go all the way back to Mexico? Just look at Nixon, he wanted China to take over India.
 

pankaj nema

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Dear Armand2 REP,
you have again started ABUSING Su 30 MKI

Now that Rafale has a 50% chance of winning MMRCA contract ,you should get rid of your hatred towards Russia. Su 30 MKI will be our mainstay till 2020 because of the sheer numbers.

After 2020 , PAKFA , MMRCA - Hopefully RAFALE , and SU 30 will make IAF a truly formidable Air force
 

bhramos

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Pakistan Not Flying UAE Block 60 F-16s, Lockheed Says
This is US lobby for its F-16 which may or may not work!!! as everybody knows who are flying UAE's F-16 Block 60......
Lockheed Martin is denying allegations that Pakistan's pilots are flying United Arab Emirates (UAE) Block 60 F-16 fighters.

The accusation comes as the downselect for India's 126-fighter Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program draws closer. Lockheed Martin is offering its Block 60 F-16IN, called Super Viper, in that competition. There is concern in certain circles that in a combat situation, India would not have an advantage if Pakistan is flying the same type of fighter.

"This is highly unlikely," says Michael Griswold, director of advanced development programs at Lockheed Martin. "We'd have known this ... There is no evidence [of it]. There is an agreement between the U.S. and the UAE that [they] won't allow that to happen.

"Besides," he adds, "the Block 50 that Pakistan has is a different plane ... And it takes a lot of training [to fly it]. The Indian air force knows their threats and the Request for Proposals is detailed."

Meanwhile, the company has received a request for information (RFI) from the Indian navy seeking information on the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing variant, and the C version for carrier operations.

The navy, which plans to build its second indigenous aircraft carrier, is considering catapult launch.

An RFI for the F/A-18 for the navy has also gone to Boeing, according to Vivek Lall, vice president of Boeing Defense Space & Security. Rafale also has been asked to submit a response to the RFI.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/08/10/awx_08_10_2010_p0-246878.xml
 

Armand2REP

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Dear Armand2 REP,
you have again started ABUSING Su 30 MKI
Wrong thread, MKI is that way >>>>>>>>>>>

Now that Rafale has a 50% chance of winning MMRCA contract ,you should get rid of your hatred towards Russia. Su 30 MKI will be our mainstay till 2020 because of the sheer numbers.

After 2020 , PAKFA , MMRCA - Hopefully RAFALE , and SU 30 will make IAF a truly formidable Air force
I knew from day one MiG-35 would not win. It was not mature enough. MKI will be the mainstay superiority fighter until MRCA comes in numbers which will cover both air dominance and strike. By 2020 MKI will be twenty years old and the basic design over 40. If IAF decides to purchase PAKFA, MKI will find itself just that more obsolete. At the current rate of production, MKI will not see itself meet the numbers identified for induction as the production would be running well into the 2020s. If I see a second production line of MKI, it may change that view but IAF doesn't seem that serious about inducting them that fast.
 

Patriot

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Cross Post:

MiG-35 still running for MMRCA, says MiG

MOSCOW (PTI): Russia Tuesday said it was not aware of its MiG-35 fighter's failure to make to the short-list in the USD 10.4 billion tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air force, according to a local daily.



Commenting on Indian media reports about IAF favouring the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, an official of the United Aircraft Corporation - the Russian bidder told Kommersant daily that India has not informed them about its decision.

"The MiG-35 is not leaving the tender, and I have no official information about this," UAC First Vice-President Mikhail Pogosyan was quoted as saying by the daily.

A MiG source quoted by Kommersant said it was too early to say what the Indians had decided.

"The official results of the tender have not yet been announced," said UAC's Press Secretary Konstantin Lantratov.

Several sources quoted by the paper listed a number of problems related to the MiG-35 programme, including a lack of financing to support it.

The MiG-35 is said to be a cheaper aircraft than its rivals but is said to have problems with engine life.

"Time between overhauls should be at least 2000 hours and overall life 4000 hours, but the RD-33 doesn't meet these parameters now," Kommersant quoted an unnamed MiG source.

Reports in the Indian media had said that other contenders of the 'mother-of-the-deals' -- Sweden's SAAB Gripen, US Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F-18 Super Hornet -- have also failed to win the hearts of the IAF.






http://www.brahmand.com/news/MiG-35-still-running-for-MMRCA-says-MiG/4689/1/10.html
 

kalaivanan

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it should be typhoon ... .. rafale not advisable since france is selling their products to pakistan....
 

Kunal Biswas

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Release of the first as standard AESA
Le Mammouth, August 11


After nine years of research and prototypes, Thales proceed this month to the industrial rate for its AESA radar, the first production model is due out from factory in August.
Thales launched in 2001 into this technology, so far only mastered by the American radar operators, which should be also incontrovertible for future UAVs.
One billion euros have been invested with public and private funds. The result should give a more operational Rafale, but also, of course, a key commercial asset.(1)
Switzerland seems to have been one of the first air forces to evaluate a Rafale equipped with it , as probably Brazil and the UAE. [he forgot India]
The first AESA Rafale flew in 2006. Three pre-production radars were made and mounted on a Air force Rafale, a Navy Rafale and an aircraft used for trials by Dassault Aviation.
Production rates in this high-technology is still relatively low, as Thales expects to produce one AESA radar by month in its cleanrooms of Pessac (Gironde), on the basis of one customer -French- present anyway.
60 AESA radar has been ordered for the fourth tranche of the Rafale.
All airborne radar fitted on Dassault fighters are built in Pessac, since the site opened in 1975.

(1] so much determinant that Thales abandonned the idea to provide it to the Swedish Saab which planned to integrate it on its Gripen[...]

http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2010/0...-de-serie.html
 

Kunal Biswas

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MKI will be the mainstay superiority fighter until MRCA comes in numbers which will cover both air dominance and strike.

By 2020 MKI will be twenty years old and the basic design over 40.

If IAF decides to purchase PAKFA, MKI will find itself just that more obsolete.
MRCA is suppose to replace all MIGS, Mirs, Jags from IAF fleet, It has nothing to do with Heavy SU-30MKI..

Their will be no fall but Rise and Rise of SU-30MKI, If rafale or EF chosen than we will make our MKI more effective for example MICA in place of R-73 and Scalp plus other true standoff weapons..

FGFA will replace MKI but not in 2020 but 2050 completely, MKI one good heavy fighter and the numbers of it targeted to 200plus..
 

Armand2REP

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MRCA is suppose to replace all MIGS, Mirs, Jags from IAF fleet, It has nothing to do with Heavy SU-30MKI..
MKI is used as an air superiority fighter so it is not going to replace MiG-27 or Jaguars in the strike role. MMRCA is primarily to replace the strike element as the MiG-27 and Jags are going on their way out as MMRCA is coming in. MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 upgraded for multi-role, eventually all aircraft will be multi-role and no more of this Soviet style specialisation crap but MKI will still be primarily air dominance.

Their will be no fall but Rise and Rise of SU-30MKI, If rafale or EF chosen than we will make our MKI more effective for example MICA in place of R-73 and Scalp plus other true standoff weapons..
Russia won't let us do it. For us to integrate our missiles Russia would have to give up every secret of the MKI. Not that we wouldn't be more than happy to do so.

FGFA will replace MKI but not in 2020 but 2050 completely, MKI one good heavy fighter and the numbers of it targeted to 200plus..
Induction of Su-30s started in 1998 so those original Russian batches will be exiting service when the last batch of MKIs come in. As much as IAF flies them they are not going to last that long. The flying coffin episode will not be repeated. By 2040 the last squadrons will be seeking to exit service. The latest deal for MKI has seen the price of the aircraft double since the first deal 12 years ago. MKI is now as expensive as Rafale. Defence inflation in Russia is twice what it is in France. Once IAF realises how much they need the technology of MMRCA, the MKI will seem like a Betamax. IAF is stressing life-cycle cost so much because they are understanding how expensive it is to maintain and operate the gas guzzling MKI.
 

Armand2REP

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It says it is nothing but "rumours" and they have "no details." No substance to that at all... What is the magasine? I doubt the date of publication post-dates the Times Now report.
 
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