MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[Yusuf]

If we consider the EF to be the front runner now, i think combining its A2A capability with the A2G capabilities of the MKI, i think we would have a great combination.

 

[Daredevil]

If we consider the EF to be the front runner now, i think combining its A2A capability with the A2G capabilities of the MKI, i think we would have a great combination.

The only problem that I see with Typhoon is lack of A2G capabilities and working AESA as of now. I think being a multi-role fighter it is mandated that winner of MRCA should have A2G capabilities.

 

[Yusuf]

Its not that the Typhoon does not have A2G capabilities is it? AESA is not on any production aircraft except the SH. If we leave our the SH for the reasons we have seen on this thread before, none of the fighters in contention have AESA on it right now.

 

[Daredevil]

Its not that the Typhoon does not have A2G capabilities is it? AESA is not on any production aircraft except the SH. If we leave our the SH for the reasons we have seen on this thread before, none of the fighters in contention have AESA on it right now.

A2G capabilities of Eurotyphoon are not proven as of now. A2G capabilities and optimization is being done for Tranche 2 and w6.ill not be ready until 2012. And regarding AESA, I think Rafale as a working AESA apart from F-18/F-1

 

[Rahul Singh]

Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement

Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air Force."

 

[Yusuf]

The Germans have taken their typhoons in a fighter bomber squadron. How would they do that? I think the brits too have paveways on theirs.

 

[gogbot]

A2G capabilities of Eurotyphoon are not proven as of now. A2G capabilities and optimization is being done for Tranche 2 and w6.ill not be ready until 2012. And regarding AESA, I think Rafale as a working AESA apart from F-18/F-1

IAF has done Weapon testing on all aircraft.
They would not pass the trials if their capabilities were not "proven" .
It ha Laser designators and can drop LGB's , JDAM's and other guided bombs. I am assuming dumb bomb drop is a given.

What Typhoon lacks is integration of a wide variety of A2G weapons.

Bottom line , if we are willing to Invest in the typhoon , like the Europeans want us to , they are offering Partnrship into the EuroFighter consotium.
Then the Typhoon can be matured to meet all our needs , and we would also have the two most capable 4.5th gen planes in the world.

As long as we invest and are willing to bear capital and development costs , Eurofighter is the best choice.

If price is what we are after then it has to be the Saab Gripen.

 

[Daredevil]

The Germans have taken their typhoons in a fighter bomber squadron. How would they do that? I think the brits too have paveways on theirs.

The only contention is that its A2G capabilities are not as mature as of other fighters in the competition. Lack of A2G capabilities in Typhoon led to rejection by Singapore Air Force 5 years ago but from then on they have started working on A2G but it is not mature as of now.

Go through this conversation of ppgj in this post

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...and-Rafael-IAF?p=167687&viewfull=1#post167687

 

[thakur_ritesh]

the point being made by yusuf has a very valid point to it. eurofighter is a very efficient air superiority aircraft with significantly less rcs compared to flanker, and Su30mki can complement it by taking the role of AoG and be used as a mini bomber once eurofighter has secured the airspace, but to the make eurofighter significantly successful an aesa is a must with a very good tracking rage.

but then 2 questions prop up.
1 mmrca is supposed to be a multirole aircraft, the purpose of acquisition in a way gets defeated.
2 will mean a role reversal for Su30mki, is the IAF ready for a shift in the role to be played by Su30mki?

 

[ashdoc]

If we consider the EF to be the front runner now, i think combining its A2A capability with the A2G capabilities of the MKI, i think we would have a great combination.

yes ,but is eurofighter a medium combat aircraft ?......our requirement.........sounds like a heavy combat aircraft to me !!

 

[Daredevil]

the point being made by yusuf has a very valid point to it. eurofighter is a very efficient air superiority aircraft with significantly less rcs compared to flanker, and Su30mki can complement it by taking the role of AoG and be used as a mini bomber once eurofighter has secured the airspace, but to the make eurofighter significantly successful an aesa is a must with a very good tracking rage.

but then 2 questions prop up.
1 mmrca is supposed to be a multirole aircraft, the purpose of acquisition in a way gets defeated.
2 will mean a role reversal for Su30mki, is the IAF ready for a shift in the role to be played by Su30mki?

I'm for Eurofighter as EADS is willing to give us partnership and movement of major chunk of manufacturing into India. This also gives India a say in the customization of Typhoon and future upgrades to the like of IAF.

As I see it, the role of MRCA (Typhoon or Rafale if the win) at the beginning of war would be SEAD mission where it would take care of enemy SAM batteries and clear the way for a new wave of ground strikers like Su-30MKI due to its long-range and heavy payload it can carry. For MRCA to do a proper SEAD mission needs powerful radars and that is where the requirement of AESA comes into picture. JMTs.

 

[Yusuf]

Doc, the MRCA became a misnomer the day the powers to be decided to include the big toys.

 

[neo29]

Assuming EF does not have A2G capabilities proven enough. But surely we agree to one point that it is in developing phase.

India invested in Brahmos project with russia to develop the fastest supersonic cruise missile, built the best air superiority fighter su-30 mki with russia again using su-27 airframe.

So why cant we do the same with EADS who are offering co-operation and jv in every field in EF. India can make it a better fighter as we did in the past. Who knew that using the old Su-27 India would build a beast Su-30 mki??

 

[SHASH2K2]

Assuming EF does not have A2G capabilities proven enough. But surely we agree to one point that it is in developing phase.

India invested in Brahmos project with russia to develop the fastest supersonic cruise missile, built the best air superiority fighter su-30 mki with russia again using su-27 airframe.

So why cant we do the same with EADS who are offering co-operation and jv in every field in EF. India can make it a better fighter as we did in the past. Who knew that using the old Su-27 India would build a beast Su-30 mki??

I completely agree with you . Eurofighter has great prospect for future and India can learn and gain a lot .We will have access to many critical technologies and will have more chances to be a development or production partner. EADS will be in better position to assist us with other projects as well. Only thing that may go against them is the price of Eurofighter . Its still very costly.

 

[gogbot]

Assuming EF does not have A2G capabilities proven enough. But surely we agree to one point that it is in developing phase.

India invested in Brahmos project with russia to develop the fastest supersonic cruise missile, built the best air superiority fighter su-30 mki with russia again using su-27 airframe.

So why cant we do the same with EADS who are offering co-operation and jv in every field in EF. India can make it a better fighter as we did in the past. Who knew that using the old Su-27 India would build a beast Su-30 mki??

I'm for Eurofighter as EADS is willing to give us partnership and movement of major chunk of manufacturing into India. This also gives India a say in the customization of Typhoon and future upgrades to the like of IAF.

As I see it, the role of MRCA (Typhoon or Rafale if the win) at the beginning of war would be SEAD mission where it would take care of enemy SAM batteries and clear the way for a new wave of ground strikers like Su-30MKI due to its long-range and heavy payload it can carry. For MRCA to do a proper SEAD mission needs powerful radars and that is where the requirement of AESA comes into picture. JMTs.

These are the reasons why the Eurofighter is perfect for the IAF , No EULA partnership in the program. A Production line that will manufacture planes not only for India but for all Euro fighter customers.
HAL and other Indian firms will get to work with both Sukhoi , and The Euro consotium.

IAF will have as much more customisation options as it does with the Su-30, With the Europeans also paying for the new Tranches cost of developing those customisations can also be reduced.

Let's get one thing straight , the Eurofighter has maturing A2G capabilities the Europeans want it , we want it. By the time we take delivery of our first Eurofighters(which is early 2014 at best) , they will be capable enough to meet our needs.

We don't want American planes, they are dated and come with restrictions.
We don't want more mig's
That leaves us with the European option's.
Saab Messed up with having no prototype , and then sending the wrong plane to the trials.
Leaves us with either the Rafale or the typhoon.

And when push comes to Shove Typhoon is the platform offering us a long term deal.
The Rafale is great in that it has a Naval variant and more formidable A2G capabilites.

But Typhoon will benefit us a lot more, on the performance and political levels. Plus it has better engines.
Bottom line is still cost , are we willing to invest in the euro-fighter program.

But if we do.

The rewards could be worth it.

 

[Daredevil]

^^Not to mention the commonality of engine EJ-2000 with LCA if the engine gets selected.

 

[ppgj]

The Germans have taken their typhoons in a fighter bomber squadron. How would they do that? I think the brits too have paveways on theirs.

RAF is upgrading their typhoons of tranche 1 block 5 - thro' what is called as an - "AUSTERE A2G programme" programme by which they would be able to fire laser/gps guided bombs like the paveways/JDAMs.

In July 2006, NETMA and Eurofighter GmbH therefore signed a £73 million contract to bring an early precision air-to-ground capability to the RAF's Tranche 1, Block 5 Typhoons, with an 'austere' integration of the Litening 3 Laser Designator Pod (LDP) and the Raytheon Enhanced Paveway II dual mode laser/GPS-guided bomb. All RAF Tranche 1 aircraft are being upgraded to the Block 5 configuration over a five-and-a-half year period under the R1 and R2 upgrade programme.

This air to ground capability was described as 'Austere' because it represented only "80% of the final planned LGB capability", with less flexibility and higher pilot workload. By comparison with the full LDP integration planned for Tranche 2 aircraft, the austere air-to-ground capability will allow manual attacks against planned single targets only, in the forward hemisphere, visible in the HUD. The full LDP integration will be more highly automated and will allow multi-target attacks in a single pass, and will allow an aircraft to engage air-to-air targets even while prosecuting an air-to-ground attack.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...hoon-fighter-bomber-declared-operational.html

OTOH when we speak multi role - it is meant to be "Radar Guided" which is not happening in the near future. minimum 2015 or may be a bit later depending on how the programme is supported by the partner countries, integration of weapons and validation there of.

the fact that all the partner countries are cutting their requirements due to the economic mess they are in points to the fact that they are vigourously pushing in EFT to the IAF.

may be 2 factors from their POV wrt to the MMRCA are -

1. bring in the profits (obviously).

2. plough in part of those profits in EF programme for further improvements like AESA to sell more to other countries.

........

it is also important to remember EFT right from design stage was optimised for A2A role. this is not to say they can't be given an A2G ability. even France was part of the programme who parted ways and made their own true multi role aircraft in Rafale.

here is a slightly dated article from Carlo Kopp.

From the perspective of airframe optimisations, the Typhoon is without doubt optimised for its two primary design objectives, which are supersonic BVR interception and close in combat at transonic speeds, with no obvious concessions made to the secondary objective of strike. The low wing loading will confer excellent climb performance for the installed thrust, and the the delta configuration lower supersonic drag, in comparison with the F/A-18. The low wing loading is not optimal for low level strike profiles, but the gust sensitivity will be alleviated by the large sweep angle and the use of artificial stability and canards. The airframe is rated to +9/-3G at an undisclosed combat weight, pylon G ratings have also not been disclosed.

http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html

AESA is not on any production aircraft except the SH. If we leave our the SH for the reasons we have seen on this thread before, none of the fighters in contention have AESA on it right now.

that is right. however our deliveries as per RFP is -

first aircraft to come within 36 months from signing the deal and all the 18 with in 48 months from signing the deal.

The RFP lays down that the first aircraft is supplied within 36 months of the contract being signed and the 18th within 48 months. The 19th aircraft, the first to be assembled in India, will come within 54 months.

http://spsaviation.net/mmrca.asp?id=1&h=IAF-Conducts-Marathon-Race-for-Jet-Fighters

considering the above and factoring in the price negotiation etc.. it is unrealistic if MMRCA is signed before end of 2011.

now Rafale is supposed to have an AESA by 2012. any more time on MMRCA signing means Rafale's RBE 2 AESA will only get better and mature with integration/validation process going on simultaneously.

OTOH EFT AESA will happen only about 2015 or later.

The consortium has made it clear it would begin work even without a formal agreement to ensure the 2015 fielding date needed to meet the planned in-service date for the Tranche 3B Typhoons. "The goal is to protect our export market," says one Eurofighter executive.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/jsp_...Line=Typhoon Partners Focus On Sensor Upgrade

add integration of weapons/validation trials, it would take more time. 2016 is an approximate time IMO subject to steadfast support to this by the partner countries.

which means Rafale will have an AESA earlier and possibly a mature one by the time deliveries start.

besides factors in Rafale favour are -

a) has been battle proven in Afghanistan.

b) the fact that it's payload capability being higher at 9500 kgs also help though this may need a higher thrust from the engine - which is being worked on.

the point being made by yusuf has a very valid point to it. eurofighter is a very efficient air superiority aircraft with significantly less rcs compared to flanker, and Su30mki can complement it by taking the role of AoG and be used as a mini bomber once eurofighter has secured the airspace, but to the make eurofighter significantly successful an aesa is a must with a very good tracking rage.

though the point is valid it defeats the very point of MMRCA which is a requirement for a "multi role" aircraft. besides EFT does not bring anything better than SU 30MKI even in A2A role. RAF infact termed SU 30MKI as better than EFT.

During the exercise, the RAF pilots candidly admitted that the Su-30MKI displayed maneuvering superior to that of the Typhoon.

http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Su-30MKI::sub::Operational_History

however the avionics on EFT are supposedly good and the RCS factor also helps but these would be comparable to Rafale.

in case IAF decides on EFT then i guess the biggest factor will be EJ 200 to power LCA mark 2 - a logistical commonality and also, that IAF is willing to wait till 2015/16 for the AESA but IMO this would be a gamble fraught with risks.

but then 2 questions prop up.

1 mmrca is supposed to be a multirole aircraft, the purpose of acquisition in a way gets defeated.

exactly.

2 will mean a role reversal for Su30mki, is the IAF ready for a shift in the role to be played by Su30mki?

highly unlikely IMO. the training of pilots on the aircrafts are centred around the AF doctrine, time consuming and costly. it takes a lot for the pilots to master the aircrafts they fly. it is not easy to shift them around so easily.

besides IMO there is no other aircraft in A2A role which is better than SU 30MKI except may be F-22. the point is moot.

...........

EFT will be more mature in 5-7 years time. but for now my vote is for the Rafale. :happy_2:

Armand,

go thro' the Carlo Kopp article linked above and -

do give me the specs wrt EFT and Rafale on the "combat radius" and the "range"??

 

[gogbot]

^^^^

Sadly Gents , we Still have the F-18 political spectre hanging over the MMRCA deal.

Until its knocked out. I fear IAF may not get the right plane.

 

[Mustang]

IAF might not have opted for EF as is being shown as I recall IAF was looking for twin engined twin seater aircraft. And EF is not a twin seater. So it could be between rafale and super hornet. Moreover, by putting super hornet at the third spot could as well be just a mind game of IAF /MOD as to see how the US reaction is going to be. If the US is really interested to sell their aircraft, they will have to give other strategic / political advantages.

Inspite of giving free weapons to pakistan, it wouldnt be a surprise if US walks out with a victory sign after MMRCA aircraft has been chosen, more so due to the fact that we are too focused on US than due to US influence.

 

[luckyy]

Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement

Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air Force."

in disciplined acquisition process ......IAF not to give their preferences...