what's the point in buying such a expensive planes and still have to sign such pacts.....
as it was mentiond by fellow boarder ' we are buying them cash not by aid money..."
MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)
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as it was mentiond by fellow boarder ' we are buying them cash not by aid money..."
ashdoc
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sunday the indian mag supports mig 35
it says------
f 18 may be a potent strike fighter ,but experts are sceptical of its dogfighting capabilities.
no new orders of f18s are being placed by US navy.
f16s are being replaced by f35 JSF and will be out of USAF.
even though both have only proven AESA radars ,US is unlikely to part with AESA radar codes.
our enemy pak has f16s.
f16 may be better than f18 in air combat ,but mig 35 is still better.
supply of spares may be cut off any time because of america's penchant for sanctions.
gripen is more in LCA class ,with only seven hardpoints.
has too many amercan parts which ,again , can be restricted by american sanctions.
eurofighter is perfect , but at 115 million ,it is priced double that of mig35 ( 60 million )--way too high.......f18 60 million, f16 super viper version 70 million ,rafale 80 million ,gripen 50 million ......
in fact ,eurofighter is hardly a medium combat aircraft( indias requirement )----its in the sukhoi class....a heavy combat aircraft.
rafale is recommended next to mig35.
its combat radius ( range for laymen ) is no less than 1850 km ,more than sukhoi.
its SPECTRA ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEM is the best in the competition ,and has a software based virtual stealth technology.
IAF has had a good experience with mirage.
france will offer no problem of spare supply and upgrades.will give full transfer of technology.
but----France cannot be relied upon considering the price escalation in scorpene deal, and its habit of supplying competitive items to enemy countries after completing supplies to a customer .
mig 35 has the most formidable dogfighting ability with its 3D thrust vector control engines ( now rendered smokeless ) ,which allows it to stop dead in full flight and resume attack at impossible angles.
OLS ( optical target locator )is a deadly add-on from the russian space program .....claimed to detect and engage even stealth platforms without turning on its radar ,thus nullifying its magnetic signature.
russia will give full transfer of technology ,unlike US ,britain ,or sweden.
no problem of spare parts supply or future upgrades.
all this at decent price which at 60 million per aircaft ,is 20 million less than rafale.
indian pilots operate the mig 29 ,navy is buying mig 29 k ,so problems of building infrastructure for maintaining new aircraft will not arise ,as it is already in place.
it says------
f 18 may be a potent strike fighter ,but experts are sceptical of its dogfighting capabilities.
no new orders of f18s are being placed by US navy.
f16s are being replaced by f35 JSF and will be out of USAF.
even though both have only proven AESA radars ,US is unlikely to part with AESA radar codes.
our enemy pak has f16s.
f16 may be better than f18 in air combat ,but mig 35 is still better.
supply of spares may be cut off any time because of america's penchant for sanctions.
gripen is more in LCA class ,with only seven hardpoints.
has too many amercan parts which ,again , can be restricted by american sanctions.
eurofighter is perfect , but at 115 million ,it is priced double that of mig35 ( 60 million )--way too high.......f18 60 million, f16 super viper version 70 million ,rafale 80 million ,gripen 50 million ......
in fact ,eurofighter is hardly a medium combat aircraft( indias requirement )----its in the sukhoi class....a heavy combat aircraft.
rafale is recommended next to mig35.
its combat radius ( range for laymen ) is no less than 1850 km ,more than sukhoi.
its SPECTRA ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEM is the best in the competition ,and has a software based virtual stealth technology.
IAF has had a good experience with mirage.
france will offer no problem of spare supply and upgrades.will give full transfer of technology.
but----France cannot be relied upon considering the price escalation in scorpene deal, and its habit of supplying competitive items to enemy countries after completing supplies to a customer .
mig 35 has the most formidable dogfighting ability with its 3D thrust vector control engines ( now rendered smokeless ) ,which allows it to stop dead in full flight and resume attack at impossible angles.
OLS ( optical target locator )is a deadly add-on from the russian space program .....claimed to detect and engage even stealth platforms without turning on its radar ,thus nullifying its magnetic signature.
russia will give full transfer of technology ,unlike US ,britain ,or sweden.
no problem of spare parts supply or future upgrades.
all this at decent price which at 60 million per aircaft ,is 20 million less than rafale.
indian pilots operate the mig 29 ,navy is buying mig 29 k ,so problems of building infrastructure for maintaining new aircraft will not arise ,as it is already in place.
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JBH22
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U did not read my post then.IF F-18 cannot operate in high altitude then its a complete waste plus with all US strings.Its not only the F-18 that's getting upgraded further all other planes EF-2000 is going to further evolve,so all the other none of them have reached their end except F-16 IMHO. Cost has to be taken into consideration how will we maintain an airforce with F-18 and Su-30mki do we have the money?
nrj
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IAF/MOD has lot of money. However, one of the deciding factor will be the speed of delivery & the induction (including training, logistical reqs). IAF will have to decide what they want, a matured bird ready to take-on or a platform with some future scope. Rest tweaking of high-altitude operation & other changes will be employed in the any of the potential player.
Oh..please read what I said..If F18(and other 3 more) couldn't operate in high altitude than don't u think it would be a big issue for IAF. As the report says they didn't give that incident that importance.
As a matter of cost, ist think what IAF prefer now for their front line multi role striker.I think IAF want MMRCA should be almost same as MKI with much improved strike role and twin engine.The new MKI will cost about 80M$ each.So u should expect IAF dont mind MMRCA will be also in that range. Now if u think the top 3, F18SH, Rafale AND Eurofighter, F18 cheaper than other two and comes closer to that cost with fastest delivery(important).
JBH22
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@JBH22
Recently India agreed to get 42 MKI in about 3B$.Do u know how fast boeing gives delivery.You cant match their infrastructure with any other nation.Boeing remains always ahead of schedule. And all the US navy and AF deal(they r thinking to buy 124) getting finished @2013-14.
Recently India agreed to get 42 MKI in about 3B$.Do u know how fast boeing gives delivery.You cant match their infrastructure with any other nation.Boeing remains always ahead of schedule. And all the US navy and AF deal(they r thinking to buy 124) getting finished @2013-14.
Aathithya2
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IAF expects combat jet selection within a year
BY:SIFY
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report on the trials it has conducted on six combat jets it is evaluating for an order for 126 aircraft and expects the selection of the fighter within a year.
The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, is quoted by India Strategic defence magazine (www.indiastrategic.in) as saying that the exhaustive field evaluation trials (FET) report covered all the aircraft in contention, and that once the selection has been made, he expected the chosen jet to be in service within three years, say by 2014.
Naik also disclosed that after completing the combat jet trials, the IAF had also completed the field trials of utility helicopters and combat helicopters. The trials of the heavy-lift helicopters were, meanwhile, in the final phase.
'The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway,' India Strategic quotes Naik as saying in its coming issue.
Each system is being acquired along with its training simulators.
As for the combat jet selection process, the air chief gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment and submitted the report to the defence ministry July-end – on time as promised.
The Russian Mig-35 (initially designated Mig-29M2), Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The IAF tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more.
As for the combat helicopters, Naik said that both the Russian
Mi-28 and US Boeing Apache AH 64D had been tested in India. Some weapon trials are due to be conducted in the country of origin. The IAF had issued a request for proposal for 22 combat helicopters to replace its ageing Soviet vintage Mi-35s.
Trials of Boeing's Chinook CH 47F heavy-lift helicopter had also been completed, while that of Russian Mi-26 were likely to be held this month. The IAF needs 15 heavy-lift helicopters to replace and augment its ageing fleet of half-a-dozen obsolete Mi-26s acquired in the mid-1980s.
Trials of the utility helicopters, needed both for the IAF and the Indian Army, are also over. The Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russia's Kamov 226 are the two contenders. The two services have tendered for a combined order of 197 helicopters.
All aircraft and helicopters are required to operate in the varied hot, humid, desert and high altitude environment of India, particularly to support the deployments in the Himalayan region.
The IAF wants to minimize its inventory of its flying machines to reduce their maintenance costs on the one hand and to increase their operational availability on the other.
Naik said that appropriate infrastructure and communication nodes were also being created as part of the IAF's transformation process now underway.
The IAF aims to have 45 combat squadrons – approximately 800 aircraft – by 2022. Of these, it is already set to acquire more than 270 Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance aircraft from Russia. These include 42 aircraft being ordered through India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is making the aircraft under the licence and transfer of technology (ToT) routes.
http://idrw.org/?p=186
BY:SIFY
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report on the trials it has conducted on six combat jets it is evaluating for an order for 126 aircraft and expects the selection of the fighter within a year.
The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, is quoted by India Strategic defence magazine (www.indiastrategic.in) as saying that the exhaustive field evaluation trials (FET) report covered all the aircraft in contention, and that once the selection has been made, he expected the chosen jet to be in service within three years, say by 2014.
Naik also disclosed that after completing the combat jet trials, the IAF had also completed the field trials of utility helicopters and combat helicopters. The trials of the heavy-lift helicopters were, meanwhile, in the final phase.
'The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway,' India Strategic quotes Naik as saying in its coming issue.
Each system is being acquired along with its training simulators.
As for the combat jet selection process, the air chief gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment and submitted the report to the defence ministry July-end – on time as promised.
The Russian Mig-35 (initially designated Mig-29M2), Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The IAF tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more.
As for the combat helicopters, Naik said that both the Russian
Mi-28 and US Boeing Apache AH 64D had been tested in India. Some weapon trials are due to be conducted in the country of origin. The IAF had issued a request for proposal for 22 combat helicopters to replace its ageing Soviet vintage Mi-35s.
Trials of Boeing's Chinook CH 47F heavy-lift helicopter had also been completed, while that of Russian Mi-26 were likely to be held this month. The IAF needs 15 heavy-lift helicopters to replace and augment its ageing fleet of half-a-dozen obsolete Mi-26s acquired in the mid-1980s.
Trials of the utility helicopters, needed both for the IAF and the Indian Army, are also over. The Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russia's Kamov 226 are the two contenders. The two services have tendered for a combined order of 197 helicopters.
All aircraft and helicopters are required to operate in the varied hot, humid, desert and high altitude environment of India, particularly to support the deployments in the Himalayan region.
The IAF wants to minimize its inventory of its flying machines to reduce their maintenance costs on the one hand and to increase their operational availability on the other.
Naik said that appropriate infrastructure and communication nodes were also being created as part of the IAF's transformation process now underway.
The IAF aims to have 45 combat squadrons – approximately 800 aircraft – by 2022. Of these, it is already set to acquire more than 270 Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance aircraft from Russia. These include 42 aircraft being ordered through India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is making the aircraft under the licence and transfer of technology (ToT) routes.
http://idrw.org/?p=186
nrj
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I never mentioned India. I said IAF/MOD has money for the MRCA execution being the immediate & urgent demand. IAF's MRCA requirement is critical at this point & money will not be issue to fulfill the demand once the platform or the supplementary measure is finalized. There might be rounding of the final order numbers if the unit cost goes high of the winner & so the vice-versa. MKIs (Previous, under-upgrade & future blocks), MRCA & the SMTs(upgrades), M2Ks(upgrades) cost is pre-understood, so all are here to stay. The Fin Min will however not entertain the other costly deals including Tankers etc.
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now it will be matter of time , the details will be available soon...
LETHALFORCE
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http://www.nineoclock.ro/index.php?issue=4736&page=detalii&categorie=politics&id=20100803-512411
F-16 deal with the US not observed by the Romanian side
Romania has officially failed to meet the second deadline convened with Washington in paying the first instalment in the F-16 deal established in March.
The offer presented to the Romanian Government by the United States Government expired on June 3, but was extended until August 3. By this date, Romania was supposed to send a letter of intent and transfer the first instalment, of USD 750 M, necessary for the purchase. The American offer for Romania, approved by the US Congress at the end of last year, refers to the providing of 24 second-hand F-16 planes, the C/D Block 25 model. The planes would be provided free of charge, but Romania is compelled to pay for the modernisation of planes and infrastructures, which would amount to USD 1.3 bln.
According to 'Gandul' online edition, the government has no money for the purchase and the subject has already created dispute within the ruling coalition. Finance minister Sebastian Vladescu has already said Romania could "under no circumstances afford to spend such sums of money this year."
"I don't see where we can get this money from, it equals 1 percent of the GDP. We have no money for military acquisition at this moment, no money for F 16 this was just a talk, these expenses are not possible at the moment, this is a subject that is unacceptable," Minister Vladescu told The Money Channel.
On the other hand, Major Ion Aurel Stanciu, head of Air Force staff says the F16 is of outmost importance and in a radio interview expressed hope the government will be finding a quick solution to pay the first sum of money. Ministry of Defence sources point to the Finance Ministry and say the strategic partnership between Romania and the US is endangered by not observing the second deadline.
"The National Defence Ministry has achieved all of its competence regarding acquisition of the multirole crafts but expenses are not supported by us. This is an inter-governmental deal and all costs need to be supported by the Finance Ministry, they are the ones that should identify means of payment. The F 16 acquisition is part of a strategy of improving our national fleet for modern aerial operations, having as main aim the acquisition of the Joint Strike Fighter F-35JSF," a spokesperson quoted by 'Gandul' said.
Romania's Supreme Defence Council in March approved the acquisition of 24 second-hand F16 fighters produced by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) to modernise its air force.
"Taking into account that Romania does not have the needed financial resources to buy new ... planes, the Council greenlighted a defence ministry proposal to acquire 24 F16 used planes," the council said in a release. Romania is a U.S. ally and some analysts had said the F16 was a likely choice. The economic crisis complicated national effort to seal a planned multi-billion euro fighter purchase, a deal aimed at replacing elderly Soviet-era MiGs. The US State Department saluted Romania's decision of buying using F-16: "The system will considerably increase Romania's interoperability with the US and the other NATO member states," Darby Holladay, US State Department spokesman said.
"This means Romania will be a member of a much bigger value, representing our interests in an important part of the world and in the meantime being an able defender of its territorial integrity." Holladay also added "the acquisition will allow Romanian air force to bring modern equipment and improve its obsolete one, but also will contribute to United States' security targets being touched."
Several international consortium have criticized Romania's decision of acquiring used aircrafts, among them the marketing director in Romania for Sweden's Saab AB, Richard Smith, blasted the proposal, saying the army may end up with "someone else's junk, " during the weekend, officials from the consortium that produces the Eurofighter Typhoon also criticized the decision.
F-16 deal with the US not observed by the Romanian side
Romania has officially failed to meet the second deadline convened with Washington in paying the first instalment in the F-16 deal established in March.
The offer presented to the Romanian Government by the United States Government expired on June 3, but was extended until August 3. By this date, Romania was supposed to send a letter of intent and transfer the first instalment, of USD 750 M, necessary for the purchase. The American offer for Romania, approved by the US Congress at the end of last year, refers to the providing of 24 second-hand F-16 planes, the C/D Block 25 model. The planes would be provided free of charge, but Romania is compelled to pay for the modernisation of planes and infrastructures, which would amount to USD 1.3 bln.
According to 'Gandul' online edition, the government has no money for the purchase and the subject has already created dispute within the ruling coalition. Finance minister Sebastian Vladescu has already said Romania could "under no circumstances afford to spend such sums of money this year."
"I don't see where we can get this money from, it equals 1 percent of the GDP. We have no money for military acquisition at this moment, no money for F 16 this was just a talk, these expenses are not possible at the moment, this is a subject that is unacceptable," Minister Vladescu told The Money Channel.
On the other hand, Major Ion Aurel Stanciu, head of Air Force staff says the F16 is of outmost importance and in a radio interview expressed hope the government will be finding a quick solution to pay the first sum of money. Ministry of Defence sources point to the Finance Ministry and say the strategic partnership between Romania and the US is endangered by not observing the second deadline.
"The National Defence Ministry has achieved all of its competence regarding acquisition of the multirole crafts but expenses are not supported by us. This is an inter-governmental deal and all costs need to be supported by the Finance Ministry, they are the ones that should identify means of payment. The F 16 acquisition is part of a strategy of improving our national fleet for modern aerial operations, having as main aim the acquisition of the Joint Strike Fighter F-35JSF," a spokesperson quoted by 'Gandul' said.
Romania's Supreme Defence Council in March approved the acquisition of 24 second-hand F16 fighters produced by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) to modernise its air force.
"Taking into account that Romania does not have the needed financial resources to buy new ... planes, the Council greenlighted a defence ministry proposal to acquire 24 F16 used planes," the council said in a release. Romania is a U.S. ally and some analysts had said the F16 was a likely choice. The economic crisis complicated national effort to seal a planned multi-billion euro fighter purchase, a deal aimed at replacing elderly Soviet-era MiGs. The US State Department saluted Romania's decision of buying using F-16: "The system will considerably increase Romania's interoperability with the US and the other NATO member states," Darby Holladay, US State Department spokesman said.
"This means Romania will be a member of a much bigger value, representing our interests in an important part of the world and in the meantime being an able defender of its territorial integrity." Holladay also added "the acquisition will allow Romanian air force to bring modern equipment and improve its obsolete one, but also will contribute to United States' security targets being touched."
Several international consortium have criticized Romania's decision of acquiring used aircrafts, among them the marketing director in Romania for Sweden's Saab AB, Richard Smith, blasted the proposal, saying the army may end up with "someone else's junk, " during the weekend, officials from the consortium that produces the Eurofighter Typhoon also criticized the decision.
24 second hand F-16 for USD 1.3bn........?..........almost 55ml/copy for modernisation....
someone says " amarican stuff is cheap and best............."
deffinatly not cheap !
r
two fighters performed below par.
http://sify.com/finance/eurofighter...ing-the-shortlist-news--news-kcsbktbijac.html
http://sify.com/finance/eurofighter...ing-the-shortlist-news--news-kcsbktbijac.html
Definitely not as costly u think.It may include training,spare parts and initial maintenance also. I think If they would buy Mirage 2009..they would be paying more than this surely.
neo29
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Mig 29 already operates in high altitude and russians has tested mig 35 for high altitudes. so its safe. Even mirage 2000 operated by IAF operates at such heights, so likely even Rafale is safe. As usual logically the US fighters fail.
vikramrana_1812
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MMRCA: Updates and Developments
July 21/10: At Farnborough 2010, HAL and its partners announce a significant piece of equipment for global F-16s. Right now, F-16s can only be refueled via a dorsal refueling boom, but many air forces depend on refueling probes that fit into hose-and-drogue systems, a preference shared by the US Navy. India's competition requires hose-and-drogue refueling – and now a team of HAL, Lockheed Martin, Flight Refueling Ltd. in the UK, and Israel Aerospace Industries has a solution.
Many F-16s already carry conformal fuel tanks that add lots of fuel, but minimize the associated drag and performance hit. The Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) modifies the right-forward conformal tank to include a pop-out refueling probe, and the system feeds fuel into the fighter directly through the same refuel manifold that a refueling boom would use. This makes CARTS a plug-and-play solution that can be retrofitted to global F-16 fleets, and gives the team a key niche product no matter what choice India makes.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ndias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/
July 21/10: At Farnborough 2010, HAL and its partners announce a significant piece of equipment for global F-16s. Right now, F-16s can only be refueled via a dorsal refueling boom, but many air forces depend on refueling probes that fit into hose-and-drogue systems, a preference shared by the US Navy. India's competition requires hose-and-drogue refueling – and now a team of HAL, Lockheed Martin, Flight Refueling Ltd. in the UK, and Israel Aerospace Industries has a solution.
Many F-16s already carry conformal fuel tanks that add lots of fuel, but minimize the associated drag and performance hit. The Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) modifies the right-forward conformal tank to include a pop-out refueling probe, and the system feeds fuel into the fighter directly through the same refuel manifold that a refueling boom would use. This makes CARTS a plug-and-play solution that can be retrofitted to global F-16 fleets, and gives the team a key niche product no matter what choice India makes.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ndias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/
ppgj
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Neo,
the issue is not about operating at high altitude. practically every aircraft operates at high altitude including Pakistan - China JV - JF-17.
the issue is "taking off" with "useful load" from a high altitude base.
in the past we know Mig 29s have taken off from LEH but with what load?? no one knows. it is possible Mig 35 can take off but whether it actually took off with useful load?? - no body knows.
again you are confusing between high altitude take off and high altitude operations. IIRC IAF Mirage 2000s have not taken off from Leh any time. hence to say Rafale is safe is simply untrue.
added later : in the biting cold and the rare field aircrafts do not even oblige starting off which is also an issue and if reports are to be beleived 4 manufacturers were asked to modify their fuel systems for the IAF requirement.
people are just guessing and speculating. no one will know the truth unless the IAF speaks of it.
and what are the "logics??"
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