More Talwar Class for Indian Navy

Kunal Biswas

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Last time you mention the same,You argued every nut have to be made in India, Sorry no one follow the same as you think these are done..

Afaik, You talked about single crystal blade tech, I showed you that with details..

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@varm, Talk about these critical manufacturing in 2nd page, If you mistaking that we dont have such ability and workforce you are wrong, India have all the ingridents and tools in place and working they just need oiling and right hand..

It's not as simple as that. We lack many critical manufacturing technology and capability. We had to start to invest in such things 20-30 years back with adequate support. We would have seen a different picture today. Lack of political will (stemming of ops to take bribe from imports) is one of the reasons and add to it those in the armed forces who stand to gain as well. It cannot change over night but if te right policies are in place, india has the strength in its entrepreneurs to make it possible. A change can be triggered by te armed forces themselves to get the domestic production going.
 

natarajan

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anyway to match chinese we need numbers ,for that nothing wrong in going to russia but same till our shipyards has to be upgraded.One cannot oppose this at the time where kolkatta sitting for decades in shipyards,scorpene going on decades with no new frigate construction started
 

Yusuf

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Last time you mention the same,You argued every nut have to be made in India, Sorry no one follow the same as you think these are done..

Afaik, You talked about single crystal blade tech, I showed you that with details..

=======================

@varm, Talk about these critical manufacturing in 2nd page, If you mistaking that we dont have such ability and workforce you are wrong, India have all the ingridents and tools in place and working they just need oiling and right hand..
The "nut" is an example to show what's happening. The single crystal technology of engine represents the kind of advance research India lacks.

You have to come out to see what's happening in the industrial sector. I know what's what. I also know that given the right policies, Indian entrepreneurs will deliver for India.
 

Yusuf

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Let me just talk about a couple of days back on how private industry can pick up. On my flight back to India from Taiwan, I met an Indian rivet manufacturer who has invested in advanced machinery and how he is supplying rivets to bearing manufacturers and also to defence industry. He told me how companies like SKF have made him professional, made his factory more professional looking and how he has learned to be efficient in his process. Indian entrepreneurs will adapt given the right encouragement.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Then how come it is produced in India and used in SU-30MKI engines ?

And yes, You are talking on point that we need to pour money on National Industry rather doing imports..

The single crystal technology of engine represents the kind of advance research India lacks.
 

Yusuf

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Then how come it is produced in India and used in SU-30MKI engines ?

And yes, You are talking on point that we need to pour money on National Industry rather doing imports..
How come we have not produced Kaveri yet?
 

p2prada

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The "nut" is an example to show what's happening. The single crystal technology of engine represents the kind of advance research India lacks.
The Russians have progressed to next generation materials today. They achieved single crystal blades the same time as the Americans, that's 3 decades ago.

Today the Americans are stuck with 5th gen SCBs while Russia has progressed to Composite blades. The Americans may follow the Russians in the future with the 6th gen navy aircraft being planned.

In 10 years we may have 4/5th gen SCB tech, but the Russians and Americans will be designing and deploying 6th gen "super" engines by then.

The SCB tech we received from Russia is quite old by today's standards and we can't use that on our engines.
 

p2prada

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Anyway,

Broadsword: New yards, techniques, to speed up warship building
A humming construction site in Mumbai's Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) holds the promise of a new era in warship building in India. Everything about this emerging new shipyard is enormous: the 200-metre-long workshop; a Goliath crane that dwarfs everything around; and an expansive "wet basin", which is an enclosed harbour that will comfortably house two large warships.


This is MDL's new Rs 826 crore "modular" shipyard that is expected to slash down the time taken to build warships for the Indian Navy. Defence shipyards currently take over ten years to build major warships like destroyers, frigates and corvettes. When the new yard is commissioned in June 2013, frigates will be built in 60 months; destroyers will take 72 months.

Building warships faster is crucial for the navy. Its Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCPP) of 2005 envisions a 160-ship navy, with 90 capital warships like aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes. Today, however, the navy has just 134 ships, with less than half the destroyers and frigates it needs. Bridging this gap of 26 ships, while also replacing warships that are being decommissioned after completing their 30-40 year service lives, requires a major boost in indigenous build capability.

To achieve this, MDL --- along with the other big defence shipyard, Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) --- is abandoning traditional shipbuilding. That involves welding a hull together and launching it into water, after which swarms of craftsmen painstakingly work in the warship's cramped compartments, installing propulsion gear, electrically equipment, weapons, sensors and hundreds of kilometres of pipes and wiring. This is a slow process.

Instead, construction will now be like a giant Lego game: convenient 300-ton blocks will be built separately, and then assembled together into a complete warship. Each block will be fabricated in a well-lit, ventilated workshop with multi-level access, and will be complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that run through a ship. Each block must dovetail precisely with its neighbouring block, every wire, pipe and compartment coming together in perfect alignment.

PK Bhattacharjee, General Manager of the Mazagon Modernisation Project (MMP), who is conducting Business Standard through an exclusive, pre-inauguration tour of the shipyard, explains what happens next. After a block is completed in the worker-friendly environment of the modular workshop, the workshop's roof is retracted and the rail-mounted Goliath crane reaches in and lifts out the 300-tonne block. It then transports it to the slipway where it takes its place in the warship that is taking shape. After about 20 blocks come together, the 3000-tonne semi-built warship is launched into the water and towed to the "wet basin", where the superstructure, and weapons and sensors are put in.

"The capability to lift 300 tonnes is what makes modular shipbuilding possible. For decades, we have worked with 40-tonne cranes," explains Battacharjee.

The first warships that will emerge from this process are 7 frigates of Project 17A. MDL will build four frigates, while GRSE will build three. The Project 17A frigates will be outwardly similar to their predecessors, the three Shivalik-class frigates of Project 17, which MDL has just completed. But modular shipbuilding is expected to ensure that Project 17A is completed must faster.

Back in MDL's corporate office the new chairman, Rear Admiral (Retired) Rahul Kumar Shrawat, explains that the technological challenge of modular shipbuilding lies in designing each 300-tonne block so that it is fully kitted and fits exactly into the next. Since this process is new to India, Fincantieri, an Italian shipbuilder, will provide consultancy for the new design process.

"MDL's board, in coordination with our partner shipyard, GRSE, will decide on the design consultancy for Project 17A. It will be a shipyard's decision. The navy has specified only that integrated (modular) construction must take place," says Shrawat.

Dutch company, Royal Haskoning, has functioned as prime consultant for the MMP, which has taken five years. Haskoning has prepared the design, organised site surveys and geotechnical investigations and is now supervising construction. Hyderabad-based Nagarjuna Construction has done the civil works, including the 8000 square metre workshop with a retractable roof.

A key construction challenge has been the Goliath crane, a Rs 89 crore, 2200-tonne structure that traverses on rails and extends 138 metres across the yard. Designed by Konecrane of Finland, the Goliath crane was physically erected by Fagioli of Italy. Kolkata-based company, McNally Bharat, was the Indian contractor.

Most pleasing to MDL officials is the third element of the MMP: a new wet basin that offers 25,000 square metres of berthing space for under-construction warships. MDL has long functioned with just the 14,000 square metre Kasara Wet Basin, which was built in 1774 to service warships of the East India Company. But, with three projects simultaneously ongoing, MDL had to berth under-construction warships at the Naval Dockyard, several kilometres away, transporting labour, stores and machinery to the naval facility everyday.

From next month, the wet basin and the Goliath crane will start functioning. The rest of the workshop is scheduled to be inaugurated in June 2013.
 

maomao

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USD 1 Billion for 1 Frigate? Seriously!!!!!!

These Gandhis / Vadras have taken the country for a ride in the past and they are doing it again and again on our face.....we are being time and again made fools in the name of secularism by paid media crooks!
 

vram

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The "nut" is an example to show what's happening. The single crystal technology of engine represents the kind of advance research India lacks.

You have to come out to see what's happening in the industrial sector. I know what's what. I also know that given the right policies, Indian entrepreneurs will deliver for India.
Sir I agree here that India is no where in the picture when you consider High end manufacturing ..
BUT the main question here is not that..we seem to have deviated. Does India posses the capability the manufacture a ship similair to the Advanced Talwar class of frigates here in India itself??
The answer is YES. we can do it. Recalling my earlier post here
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-navy/50110-india-spend-3-billion-3-more-talwar-class-frigates-2.html#post714669

SO the next question is why not do it in a India Yard?

Well according to a lot of commentators we seem to have two hurdles here...time delay and ship yard capacity.


The time period for Shivalik from launch to commisioning was 7 years while the russians have achieved the same in 3.5 years which is double the time. The reason for the time difference here are three folds.
1.THE MAIN POINT. the Shivalik is a MORE capable vessel with the full load weight of 6200 tonnes. IT has the Brahmos attack system, Twin RBU-6000 rocket launchers and torpedo tubes,the Shtil-1 and Barak-1 and can carry two naval helicopters.LOL its as good as a destroyer.
All the TALWAR class boats have a full load capacity of only around 4000 tonnes. the First batch had the KLUB missiles while the second batch had the Brahmos Missiles,twin Torpedo tubes along with one launcher for SA-N-12 SAMS and 8 Bulk SA-16 SAM's and one anti-sub helicopter.

2.the two gasturbine engines from GE got delayed due to temporary stop export order given after the Obama administration took over in 2009. This was cleared only in mid 2009 due to which nearly 10 months was lost.
3.Also Building capacity and trained manpower are not enough compared to russian yards. The former problem is already being addressed in the Govt shipyards where modern shipbuilding techiniques are getting set up.

The second point is a geopolitical reality which is part of the danger of being a Arms Importing nation. YOU are always at someones mercy.
I BELIEVE the third point will not be a problem in the newly built shipyards like Katupalli and Pipnav. SO to answer my above question the difference in time for delivery can definitely be brought down to one year at the most very easily by giving it to private players. Both the Capacity problem is solved and the TIME duration is solved.
while the delivery from India yards will be longer time compared to russian yeards even if private players are included like Katupalli , the difference will be very reasonable to say 4 years to 4.5 year from launch to commisioning. BUT the gains here will be maximum. You will have a very mature warship building industry at your disposal.

There are no short cuts to hard work.
In the below link you can read about the capabilities and see the Shivalik built here. both capablity as well as looks and comfort wise it appears to be on par with any western naval ship.
Broadsword: A visit to the INS Shivalik: India's newest warship
 
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Yusuf

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@vram, agree with all your points. But fact remains that TODAY because of lack of any foresight, planning as well as may be willful negligence we didn't expand our capabilities except for MDL which is being expanded. Even with MDLs expanded capabilities, we require more ships than it will be able to produce.

The Shivaliks are good but we can't manufacture them in Russia. They have to be done here. Extending the Talwars numbers only is a stop gap measure to keep numbers.
 
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Yusuf

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Then you dont know about it, Read the thread before saying so..

There is a reason i gave you the link..
A collective decision was taken to drop Kaveri from the Tejas program. DRDO is not an organization which takes kindly to such things as we have seen how they fought for Arjun. But everyone agreed to delink it from Tejas program.

IIRC they are yet to find wars to shed about 200 kgs from the engine as its a bit heavy as well.

Look I have always encouraged local manufacturing to import. But I also am realistic and pragmatic about current situation and immediate requirements. Propulsion system along with gearbox is the heart of any system and we have to master all of them be it for fighters, tanks or ships.
 

p2prada

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A collective decision was taken to drop Kaveri from the Tejas program. DRDO is not an organization which takes kindly to such things as we have seen how they fought for Arjun. But everyone agreed to delink it from Tejas program.
Even the re-engine bid by GTRE to replace the F-404 on LCA Mk1s and F-414 on the LCA Mk2 with Kaveri K-9/K-10 was rejected by MoD in January this year.

Apart from engine related tests, LCA will never see Kaveri.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Your Post have nothing to do with the topic at hand but just avoiding the given examples and away from the questions given beforehand..

And above all you keep on claiming besides the issue about something which you dont have deep knowledge about, I suggest you research a little before coming out with wild conclusions..

But everyone agreed to delink it from Tejas program, Propulsion system along with gearbox is the heart of any system and we have to master all of them be it for fighters, tanks or ships.
 

Payeng

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compromising with national defence preparedness is a grave crime, moreover the Navy is not responsible for the development of local capabilities neither they will be asked while reviewing war results , they can encourage local capabilities and it seems they are doing so, but this does not mean they must direct each and every order to a low capable manufacturer at a compromise.

It took 9 years to deliver 3 Shivaliks, Talwar takes about 4 years, nuff said.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Even one import a 100 ships will be always outnumber by a Nation with few Ships given it has ability to produce Ships in his own country..

In war only those win who have ultimate access of resources and supply without stoppages, Delay with ships is not permanent handicap..
 

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