MMRCA news and discussions.

[Dark Sorrow]

I thing some member have wrongly accused Mig-35 to have more operating cost in longer term. In my opinion operating Mig-35 will save costs in term of traing and building up infrastructures as we are operating many versions of Mig already. Correct me if I am wrong.

Mig-35 is completely different from all previous mig including Mig-29 that we use.
Its avionics suite is completely different from all previous migs. Its mode of operation is completely different from any aircraft currently aviable with IAF today and one to properly train pilots before letting them in those birds, even the 29's pilot would be required to be trained.
Mig-35 lacks a decent EW suite. A lot of money and time will be spent to integrate Elta EL/M 8222 EW pod which is the standrd for IAF, RWR would be required to installed. The metallurgy used to build air-frame is not up to mark, even the metallury used to build the airframe used in MKI was changed by DRDO/HAL on request IAF.
Mig-35 doesnot posses a glass cockpit, it doesnot even posses all digital electronic i.e. it possess few analog electronic and gauges.
Mig-35's greatert advantage is that it is an open architecture configuration system following Mil standards. This allow the bird to be easily configured with western electronics, this again is a costly affair.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

rightly said my friend ....good to know that russians are supporting us here also ....ppl need to know the true genius of russians and the way they have helped us in weapons ...also i would like IAF should have S-400

Firstly, i want to say that you look like a Russian lobbist, no offence.
Secondly, Russian hardware (except Mig-35) tend to propritory following their own standards. It is difficult to such propritory hardware in the network centric enviroment. This was the one of the two reason why we limited the purchase of the S-300 systems. Also western system tend to be better.

 

[AJSINGH]

Mig-35 is completely different from all previous mig including Mig-29 that we use.
Its avionics suite is completely different from all previous migs. Its mode of operation is completely different from any aircraft currently aviable with IAF today and one to properly train pilots before letting them in those birds, even the 29's pilot would be required to be trained.
Mig-35 lacks a decent EW suite. A lot of money and time will be spent to integrate Elta EL/M 8222 EW pod which is the standrd for IAF, RWR would be required to installed. The metallurgy used to build air-frame is not up to mark, even the metallury used to build the airframe used in MKI was changed by DRDO/HAL on request IAF.
Mig-35 doesnot posses a glass cockpit, it doesnot even posses all digital electronic i.e. it possess few analog electronic and gauges.
Mig-35's greatert advantage is that it is an open architecture configuration system following Mil standards. This allow the bird to be easily configured with western electronics, this again is a costly affair.

Mig 35 is different ....i beg to differ .....well u see if we buy any other aircraft that will be different too ...like sh and super viper ...eurofighter is radically different too...so that is not a problem...Mig 35 is atleast a cousin of Mig 29 smt ...do note this...to construt infrastructure and pilot training would cost less with Mig 35 ...even if we buy SH with decent EW suite ..it will cost us just the same plus alos the strings which come attached with american weapons .....if one thing russia is good at ..that is " mettalurgy" the reason why the airframe mettalurgy was changed because of different climate in india ....Mig 35 does not have glass cockpit ..i beg to differ ...plz check your facts ...u maybe wrong...so what do digital elctronics ...gaugues do the job just fine ...costly affair ...well that has to be done with any aircraft in the comeptition because IAF wont buy aircraft just off the shelf ..it will change it according to its needs

 

[AJSINGH]

Firstly, i want to say that you look like a Russian lobbist, no offence.
Secondly, Russian hardware (except Mig-35) tend to propritory following their own standards. It is difficult to such propritory hardware in the network centric enviroment. This was the one of the two reason why we limited the purchase of the S-300 systems. Also western system tend to be better.

look i am fan of russian weapons because they are relatively cheaper than the NATO weapons plus they have helped us when every other country refused to seel us their weaponry ...plus russians weapons system have always worked

 

[AJSINGH]

plus if Pakistan get the chinnese version of sa 21 know as hq 19 ...then we have to but those sam systems too

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Mig 35 is different ....i beg to differ .....well u see if we buy any other aircraft that will be different too ...like sh and super viper ...eurofighter is radically different too...so that is not a problem...Mig 35 is atleast a cousin of Mig 29 smt ...do note this...to construt infrastructure and pilot training would cost less with Mig 35 ...even if we buy SH with decent EW suite ..it will cost us just the same plus alos the strings which come attached with american weapons .....if one thing russia is good at ..that is " mettalurgy" the reason why the airframe mettalurgy was changed because of different climate in india ....Mig 35 does not have glass cockpit ..i beg to differ ...plz check your facts ...u maybe wrong...so what do digital elctronics ...gaugues do the job just fine ...costly affair ...well that has to be done with any aircraft in the comeptition because IAF wont buy aircraft just off the shelf ..it will change it according to its needs

Please don't compare the mig with SH or SV or EF. In the default configuration mig can't take on any of above specified aircraft in 1 to 1 head on combat, SH or SV or EF simply outclass the migs.
A good EW suite is one of the most important system for a modern multi-role combat aircraft. At present mig lacks one while SH or SV or EF possess one of the best EW suite.
The configurations provided by SH and SV is perfect. The same can't be said about Mig.
IAF is not a cash starved orgainsation. It is willing to spend more to bring advanced technologies to India. It has also stated in RPF that if required it is even ready to create infrastructure for the selected from zero. Most importantly that IAF has not asked for full ToT, it was some fanboy or ill informed jurnalist that got the ToT issue. Only the offest clause was specified.
Now coming to metallurgy part, you are wrong about russian metallurgy claim. The truth is russian metallury sucks. Can you tell me why russians use 125 mm tank gun and even with larger diameter their shell produce less pressure. Can you also explain why russian artillery have a less rate of fire, range and smaller barrel life compaired to western system. The fact is americans are leaders in metallurgy followed by germans and finally sweden. This is the only reason why we don't buy artillery pieces from russia but from sweden. We are also intrested in the their(swedish) archer artillery system.
Glass cockpit really makes a difference, it tends to ease pressure compaired to analog system or gauges. While performing high speeds manuvers or engaging the enemy, glass cockpit provide ease for pilot to see and understand readings.
As i said SH and SV would not be required to customize, the proposal that boeing and LM submitted is perfect.

 

[ppgj]

A good EW suite is one of the most important system for a modern multi-role combat aircraft. At present mig lacks one while SH or SV or EF possess one of the best EW suite.

by the time MMRCA deal is done india will have its own EW suite called "MAYAWI" which can be integrated to mig like all other existing indian aircrafts.also india produces RD-33 engines in india.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

look i am fan of russian weapons because they are relatively cheaper than the NATO weapons plus

From you writing i feel you are at late thirties or early forties. You may have come from the generation of people who have created a static mindset that Russians did us huge favour and we owe them for our life and we cannot do anything without russian weapons. The fact is that we paid for the goods. So what russian items are cheap but nato items are better and more reliable.

they have helped us when every other country refused to seel us their weaponry

Man, '71 was a different story. At that time we and russians share the same strategic intrest. We wanted to divide pakistan and free our-self from east-pakistan menace while russians wanted to reduce american influence from asia. The things now have changed completely, now nor us or nor they share the same strategic intrest. Tomarrow if we go on a war with china i don't think they would take our side nor they would support us. I won't blame them as for them china is a bigger customer.
As a matter of fact french never sanctioned us, not in '71 nor in '98.

plus russians weapons system have always worked

No russian weapon not alway worked. Remember the recent CAG report regarding on russian air to air missile not working as aspected. Can you answer why we went for paveway LGB in kargil war insted of russian LGB despite the americans had sanctioned us the previous year. Why is that any russian system we buy we tend to modify it with western sub-system. I never have heard that any western system we purchased need to have major modification.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

plus if Pakistan get the chinnese version of sa 21 know as hq 19 ...then we have to but those sam systems too

I can't get what you wish to convey. Please use proper grammer and don't leave gaps in the statement as it becomes difficult to interpret.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

by the time MMRCA deal is done india will have its own EW suite called "MAYAWI" which can be integrated to mig like all other existing indian aircrafts.also india produces RD-33 engines in india.

Firstly Mayawi is built around tejas. No where across net i came across any statement that it can be operated with other aircraft.
We produce RD-33 series 3 engines while mig-35 use RD-33MK engine.

 

[AJSINGH]

Please don't compare the mig with SH or SV or EF. In the default configuration mig can't take on any of above specified aircraft in 1 to 1 head on combat, SH or SV or EF simply outclass the migs.
A good EW suite is one of the most important system for a modern multi-role combat aircraft. At present mig lacks one while SH or SV or EF possess one of the best EW suite.
The configurations provided by SH and SV is perfect. The same can't be said about Mig.
IAF is not a cash starved orgainsation. It is willing to spend more to bring advanced technologies to India. It has also stated in RPF that if required it is even ready to create infrastructure for the selected from zero. Most importantly that IAF has not asked for full ToT, it was some fanboy or ill informed jurnalist that got the ToT issue. Only the offest clause was specified.
Now coming to metallurgy part, you are wrong about russian metallurgy claim. The truth is russian metallury sucks. Can you tell me why russians use 125 mm tank gun and even with larger diameter their shell produce less pressure. Can you also explain why russian artillery have a less rate of fire, range and smaller barrel life compaired to western system. The fact is americans are leaders in metallurgy followed by germans and finally sweden. This is the only reason why we don't buy artillery pieces from russia but from sweden. We are also intrested in the their(swedish) archer artillery system.
Glass cockpit really makes a difference, it tends to ease pressure compaired to analog system or gauges. While performing high speeds manuvers or engaging the enemy, glass cockpit provide ease for pilot to see and understand readings.
As i said SH and SV would not be required to customize, the proposal that boeing and LM submitted is perfect.

dude i think u dont know why America Started it JSF and Raptor program ....in mid 1990s...because they found the legacy soviet fighter such as su-27 and Mig 29 outclasses their F-15 and F-18 and F-16 ....let me tell u this ...when Mig 29 came out in1982 ..it had IRST BALL and helmet mounted display ...plus whole new avionics ...su 27 and upgraded Mig 29 showed were the first fitted with fly by wire which was replaced by qudrable redudnt system....that only latter came out in upgraded version of SH AND sv....Mig 29 itslef outclassed the F-16 and F-18...when Mig 31 came out ..it was called "blackbird killer" because of that USAF had to pahse out their balck bird ...Mig 31 was the first aircraft to have true " look up shoot up and look down shoot down " capability ....Su27 legacy fighters were the first to feature TVC technology which even now is not featured in SH OR SV...its only in F-22 ......tell me one reason why americans were surprised when they saw Mig 25 ( a soviet pilot defected to USA through Japan) ..the riveting on Mig 25 WAS DONE BY hand..not at allaerodynamic effecient but did the job well beyond american expectations...449th test evaluation in nevada were surprised that Mig 25 could even fly ..once it clocked mach 3 over egypt ....so all this tell us that the mettalury was top class in russian aircraft ( artellary is different issue altogether ..metals used on combat aircraft and airplanes is of different grade ...and if u must know the famous AK 47 was made of ordinary steel and did not jam even once ...eeven when it was kept underwater by veit cong forces in vietnam war ) EW suite on Mig 35 is not yet developed but since it will take up around 6 years for the first aircraft to arrive ..it will have enough time to develop ....and in the KArgil conflict ...Mig 29 were used as bomber escort ..and they once had lockon to two pakistani F-16 block 40 aircraft but gave up the chase ..because Indian Air force high command did give the permission to engage ....you theory that SH SV EF outclass the Mig is false ...its not me ..pure facts say so...about SH being offered to india ...that is only the aircraft ,,,much of it EW suite come in external pod ...that we have to buy seperatley ..IAF wont just pick aircraft off the shelf ..it will certainly want it according to it needs ...and if u must know i happened to speak to cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma few days back ( he was in wellington india ) ..he happened to be test pilot in Indian air force ..he even flew quite a few hours in f-16 later he also was pilot of Mig 29 ...he said and i quote " nothing is more agile than the Mig29 "....and u claim that IAF is not asking for full TOT ..that is wrong ..Govt of india is asking for full 100% TOT including the Radar and engines ..everything...read about that everywhere ..even our defence minister says so ....how do u know the exact requirments of IAF unless u happen to be the one who drafted the needs of IAF for MMRCA competition ...and how do u know what exact configuration is being offered by Boeing or lockheed martin ...and would u be knowing that the external Pods are being offered for free with the aircraft ....plus i happen to find some pictures of Mig 35 cockpit ..and i couldnt help to wonder...why cant i see some old soviet era analog dials and gauge
ill paste the link if u got any doubts
http://pilot.strizhi.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/IMG_5668_sm.jpg

plus even if IAF has enough money they wont throw money mindlessly ..they need money for other projects too

 

[ppgj]

Firstly Mayawi is built around tejas. No where across net i came across any statement that it can be operated with other aircraft.
We produce RD-33 series 3 engines while mig-35 use RD-33MK engine.

it was a spin off from LCA development like many others.does not mean it is only for LCA.like tarang which is standard for all our aircraft and they are operational.

 

[AJSINGH]

From you writing i feel you are at late thirties or early forties. You may have come from the generation of people who have created a static mindset that Russians did us huge favour and we owe them for our life and we cannot do anything without russian weapons. The fact is that we paid for the goods. So what russian items are cheap but nato items are better and more reliable.

Man, '71 was a different story. At that time we and russians share the same strategic intrest. We wanted to divide pakistan and free our-self from east-pakistan menace while russians wanted to reduce american influence from asia. The things now have changed completely, now nor us or nor they share the same strategic intrest. Tomarrow if we go on a war with china i don't think they would take our side nor they would support us. I won't blame them as for them china is a bigger customer.
As a matter of fact french never sanctioned us, not in '71 nor in '98.


No russian weapon not alway worked. Remember the recent CAG report regarding on russian air to air missile not working as aspected. Can you answer why we went for paveway LGB in kargil war insted of russian LGB despite the americans had sanctioned us the previous year. Why is that any russian system we buy we tend to modify it with western sub-system. I never have heard that any western system we purchased need to have major modification.

I was not aware CAG had completed their report. Were you aware the shelf life of R-77 is 8 years in the box controlled, 5 years in the box uncontrolled, and one on the trolly ? Were you aware IAF has been keeping them in storage since in 1996? Were you aware that at the average procurement rate of missiles are going to mean 40% are past their service lives? Were you aware it is common procedure to test old missiles first to write them off?

There are far too many variables that have not been revealed like storage conditions, testing age, and write offs. Not to mention the utter smear campaign the US and Israeli lobbies in India have been making to get them away from Russian arms. The Krasnopol sham should be evidence enough of that. It is all an attempt to steal MMRCA from russia


this post was earlier posted by "valdimar" .....

 

[AJSINGH]

I can't get what you wish to convey. Please use proper grammer and don't leave gaps in the statement as it becomes difficult to interpret.

what i was trying to say if pakistan get the chinnese version fo sa 21 knows as Hq 19 ..we need to but SA 21 too

 

[K Factor]

dude i think u dont know why America Started it JSF and Raptor program ....in mid 1990s...because they found the legacy soviet fighter such as su-27 and Mig 29 outclasses their F-15 and F-18 and F-16 ....let me tell u this ...when Mig 29 came out in1982 ..it had IRST BALL and helmet mounted display ...plus whole new avionics ...su 27 and upgraded Mig 29 showed were the first fitted with fly by wire which was replaced by qudrable redudnt system....that only latter came out in upgraded version of SH AND sv....Mig 29 itslef outclassed the F-16 and F-18...when Mig 31 came out ..it was called "blackbird killer" because of that USAF had to pahse out their balck bird ...Mig 31 was the first aircraft to have true " look up shoot up and look down shoot down " capability ....Su27 legacy fighters were the first to feature TVC technology which even now is not featured in SH OR SV...its only in F-22 ......tell me one reason why americans were surprised when they say Mig 25 ( a soviet pilot defected to USA through Japan) ..the riveting on Mig 25 WAS DONE BY hand..not at allaerodynamic effecient but did the job well beyond american expectations...449th test evaluation in nevada were surprised that Mig 25 could even fly ..once it clocked mach 3 over egypt ....so all thsi tell us that the mettalury was top class in russian aircraft ( artellary is different issue altogether ..metals used on combat aircraft and airplanes is of different grade ...and if u must know the famous AK 47 was made of ordinary steel and did not jam even once ...eeven when it was kept underwater by veit cong forces in vietnam war ) EW suite on Mig 35 is not yet developed but since it will take up around 6 years for the first aircraft to arrive ..it will have enough time to develop ....and in the KArgil conflict ...Mig 29 were used as bomber escort ..and they once had lockon to two pakistani F-16 block 40 aircraft but gave up the chase ..because Indian Air force high command did gie the permission to engage ....you theory that SH SV EF outclass the Mig is false ...its not me ..pure facts say so...about SH being offered to india ...that is only the aircraft ,,,much of it EW suite come in external pod ...that we have to but seperatley ..IAF wont just pick aircraft off the shelf ..it will certainly want it according to it needs ...and if u must know i happened to speak to cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma few days back ( he was in wellington india ) ..he happened to be test pilot in Indian air force ..he even flew quite a few hours in f-16 later he also was pilot of Mig 29 ...he said and i quote " nothing is more agile than the Mig29 "....and u claim that IAF is not asking for full TOT ..that is wrong ..Govt of india is asking for full 100% TOT including the Radar and engines ..everything...read about that everywhere ..even our defence minister says so ....how do u know the exact requirments of IAF unless u happen to be the one who drafted the needs of IAF for MMRCA competition ...and how do u know what exact configuration is being offered by Boeing or lockheed martin ...and would u be knowing that the external Pods are being offered for free with the aircraft ....plus i happen to find some pictures of Mig 35 cockpit ..and i couldnt help to wonder...why cant i see some old soviet era analog dials and gauge
ill paste the link if u got any doubts
http://pilot.strizhi.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/IMG_5668_sm.jpg

plus even if IAF has enough money they wont throw money mindlessly ..they need money for other projects too

Mate, can you please form proper sentences, not use 3 dots after every 3 or 4 words and break yur reply into paragraphs. That way its easier to read and looks better too. Thanks.

 

[K Factor]

I was not aware CAG had completed their report. Were you aware the shelf life of R-77 is 8 years in the box controlled, 5 years in the box uncontrolled, and one on the trolly ? Were you aware IAF has been keeping them in storage since in 1996? Were you aware that at the average procurement rate of missiles are going to mean 40% are past their service lives? Were you aware it is common procedure to test old missiles first to write them off?

There are far too many variables that have not been revealed like storage conditions, testing age, and write offs. Not to mention the utter smear campaign the US and Israeli lobbies in India have been making to get them away from Russian arms. The Krasnopol sham should be evidence enough of that. It is all an attempt to steal MMRCA from russia

Please do not copy-paste others posts as your own.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/61753-post509.html

 

[K Factor]

what i was trying to say if pakistan get the chinnese version fo sa 21 knows as Hq 19 ..we need to but SA 21 too

Then, by your logic we should get F-16 too, isn't it?

 

[AJSINGH]

Then, by your logic we should get F-16 too, isn't it?

not really because we have better aircraft than the f-16 ..but we do need some serious sam system ..which sa 21 happens to be the best

 

[Singh]

The thread title says MMRCA News and Discussions.
Members please don't deviate from the topic.

 

[ppgj]

Firstly Mayawi is built around tejas. No where across net i came across any statement that it can be operated with other aircraft.
We produce RD-33 series 3 engines while mig-35 use RD-33MK engine.

check this-
PIB Press Release
read with this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33
go to HAL series 3 on the page.