MMRCA news and discussions.

[wild goose]

Brigadier,

Regarding the MiG 21 accidents, infact Russians were blaming sub standard Indian spares where as IAF was complaining about used airframes supplied by Russia.

I agree with you 'putting all eggs in one basket' is not a wise option.
For Soviet Union India was a strategic ally.But for Russia India is just a customer(rich).

I wish Typhoon won the competition.But it seems too costly.120million USD speculated.But if urgent replacement for depleting squadron strength is the need then Super Hornet may get an upper hand.Provided the Indian manufacturers of 108 odd fighters does not find any delays in grasping the technology, the 'Scorpene' way.

 

[AJSINGH]

WTH do you mean by glitches. Do you know how many mig-21s have crashed because of unreliable spare parts, close to 200. what about Gorshkov?. There were also some use T-72s which were tried to be pushed down our throats. I'm not saying they are not reliable but getting military hardware from just one country without competition from other countries will make them cocky and they will not take us seriously.



Its only 10% increase not double as you are trying to imply. go and check the thread on increase in price again.


Still holds true. Check above points.



We need an A/C which is ready for manufacturing not the ones which are in development. The aim of MRCA is to fill the gaps before LCA is inducted in large numbers in place of aging Mig-21s, 25s, 27s, Jaguars etc. We cannot wait for A/C develop and then show its worth.

about Mig 21 ...the ones which have crashed are the type 77 and type 67 ..not the ugraded bisons ...also the reasons of Mig 21 crashing were due to pilot training also...advance jet training was done on Mig 21 can u believe that in Bidar ...its like learning to drive in a ferrari ...from subsonic Kiran to supersonic small wing not forgiving Mig 21,also u do know Mig 21 flying life and technical life is over many years back ...its like USAF still flyinf the F-4 phantoms ...they will crash .......do note this too..that they had given us the wole production line of Mig 21 and it was our resposibility to manufacture the sapres.....about Gorshkov ....can u tell me any country which would give us their aircraft carrier for under 3 billion dollar ..any country ...plus no aircraft carrier that big will come under 3 billion dollars with effective weapon such as Mig 29 onboard ......T-72 story has ended ...my uncle is i Indian army 66th tank brigade ....he says those tanks have served falwlessly now they have T-90s ....plus the gorshkov deal is the best Inida could get ..cheap aircraft ( it would have costed us more if we owuld have started from the begning and more time ) ....also tell me one country which would lease their frontline Neuclear submarine....dude i gave u an example about Mig 29 ..it was still in development when india signed the contract in 1985 ...its the same thing here ...in 7 years the first aircraft will arrive ..that is enough time for Mig 35 to develop in the "Mki" version

 

[AJSINGH]

Brigadier,

Regarding the MiG 21 accidents, infact Russians were blaming sub standard Indian spares where as IAF was complaining about used airframes supplied by Russia.

I agree with you 'putting all eggs in one basket' is not a wise option.
For Soviet Union India was a strategic ally.But for Russia India is just a customer(rich).

I wish Typhoon won the competition.But it seems too costly.120million USD speculated.But if urgent replacement for depleting squadron strength is the need then Super Hornet may get an upper hand.Provided the Indian manufacturers of 108 odd fighters does not find any delays in grasping the technology, the 'Scorpene' way.

SH is inferior to Mig 35 in almost evry way ....plus if IAF buys that...it will the first airforce to induct " maritime strike fighter " as multi role combat aircraft
plus the time to required to form operational doctrine and tactics and infrastructure ...will atke time which IAF does not have

 

[Vladimir79]

WTH do you mean by glitches. Do you know how many mig-21s have crashed because of unreliable spare parts, close to 200.

And where have you been buying the vast majority of those spare parts? Certainly not from us. Don't forget corruption in your own industry.

what about Gorshkov?

Clear case of corruption at Sevmash. Don't forget, you couldn't have your first nuklear submarine without our help. Should make up for it.

there were also some use T-72s which were tried to be pushed down our throats.

T-72s shoved down your throats?? Russia can't shove anything down India's throat... India is far too indepedent for that.

I'm not saying they are not reliable but getting military hardware from just one country without competition from other countries will make them cocky and they will not take us seriously.

Bullocks, India is the most important partner we had, have, and will have long into the future. Who was the one that sanctioned India after 1998 nuklear testing? Of course that was US. India can't afford to be so tied to such sensitive suppliers. You can't count on the EU or you end up with a Tienamen embargo which has left Chinese military in the dark ages. You can't rely on Israel since their puppet master is the one and only USA. Russia is the only one to trust and Indians know this all too well. Not only that, mixing and matching suppliers makes logistics and compatibility a major issue.

Its only 10% increase not double as you are trying to imply. go and check the thread on increase in price again.

Original price was 2.5 billion, now is 3.9 billion. Subs are delayed so what makes them so much better than our supply?

Still holds true. Check above points.

Check my above points... see if it still holds.

 

[shankarosky]

As far as I understand Jamming is used for Electronic countermeasures to evade the missiles and stop signals to the missile's guidance systems. The mechanism of jamming just scrambles with the signals and disables communication mechanisms. I don't understand how it lets hide the position

it confuses the guidance mechanism of the anti air missile and prevents ranging .instead of a clear locational signal all you get is a hash that do not allow the defensive systems to lock on

 

[wild goose]

SH is inferior to Mig 35 in almost evry way ....plus if IAF buys that...it will the first airforce to induct " maritime strike fighter " as multi role combat aircraft
plus the time to required to form operational doctrine and tactics and infrastructure ...will atke time which IAF does not have

AJ,

You say, IAF don't have time to form operational doctrine,tactics and infrastructure for SH but they can wait for 7 years till the MiG 35 MKI rolls out.Kind of step motherly it seems.
My doubt is that can't IAF acquire the major break throughs claimed by MiG 35 in Radar,avionics,TVC etc in their current fleet of MiG 29s.The fact that airframes are old is accepted.

'Maritime strike fighter in Multirole', regardless of whether the cat is black or white it should catch the mouse.

After all every contender except MiG requires new infra and tactics.Doctrine may remain the same what IAF now have.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Clear case of corruption at Sevmash. Don't forget, you couldn't have your first nuklear submarine without our help. Should make up for it.

There isn't anything like making-up. And sorry no favours. We have paid for all in cash and time(time=money) much more than those equipments worth. Apart from all i still favour Russia than any. And reason is non other than classic theory of friendship because of mutual benefit.

 

[ppgj]

There isn't anything like making-up. And sorry no favours. We have paid for all in cash and time(time=money) much more than those equipments worth. Apart from all i still favour Russia than any. And reason is non other than classic theory of friendship because of mutual benefit.

yes money in full was paid.but one has to give credit to the russians for giving us what we wanted when none was giving!!

 

[Rahul Singh]

yes money in full was paid.but one has to give credit to the russians for giving us what we wanted when none was giving!!

I didn't denied that but as i said mutual benefits. During soviat era India got helping hand form USSR becouse Red Guys have fear of Indian inclination towards west/capitalists for meeting needs....... Again saying, i respect USSR and Russia for helping us but i'll stand at it when i say it was two sided bussiness.

 

[ppgj]

I didn't denied that but as i said mutual benefits. During soviat era India got helping hand form USSR becouse Red Guys have fear of Indian inclination towards west/capitalists for meeting needs....... Again saying, i respect USSR and Russia for helping us but i'll stand at it when i say it was two sided bussiness.

i did note that.it was not about the post just an observation and was related.

 

[Vladimir79]

There isn't anything like making-up. And sorry no favours. We have paid for all in cash and time(time=money) much more than those equipments worth. Apart from all i still favour Russia than any. And reason is non other than classic theory of friendship because of mutual benefit.

If there is no such thing as making-up, then there is no such thing as friendship or relationships. As in the case of Krasnopol, you decided to use NATO propellant charges which inhibited accuracy... we at no charge replaced the first batch with the ones specified for the ammunition. In the face of sanctions over nuklear testing, we provided you assistance with no strings attached. Does this mean nothing? In the case of Gorshkov, you were offered a refund after the initial six hundred million had been paid but after long negotiations you decided to go forward. I think once Vikramaditya changes flags, Indians will be quite happy with it. Our industries are reforming, don't bail just yet unless you want your hands tied by Western powers for the next sixty years.

 

[Daredevil]

And where have you been buying the vast majority of those spare parts? Certainly not from us. Don't forget corruption in your own industry.

No. IAF has submitted a large procurement plan for Mig-21 spares in late 1990's to Mig corporation and Mig didn't respond on time and didn't supply spare parts on time and this led to a huge number of mig-21 crashes and Mig completely blamed it on IAF.

Clear case of corruption at Sevmash. Don't forget, you couldn't have your first nuklear submarine without our help. Should make up for it.

Doesn't matter, it made a huge dent in perception of Russia as a reliable supplier.

T-72s shoved down your throats?? Russia can't shove anything down India's throat... India is far too indepedent for that.

Yeah, when our tankies wanted to evaluate T72S, old and used T72S were repainted as presented them as new to us, which our men have caught and the we had to go for completely new build T90S.

Bullocks, India is the most important partner we had, have, and will have long into the future. Who was the one that sanctioned India after 1998 nuklear testing? Of course that was US. India can't afford to be so tied to such sensitive suppliers. You can't count on the EU or you end up with a Tienamen embargo which has left Chinese military in the dark ages. You can't rely on Israel since their puppet master is the one and only USA. Russia is the only one to trust and Indians know this all too well. Not only that, mixing and matching suppliers makes logistics and compatibility a major issue.

French has been reliable. We got all our supplies without hitches and Mirages were never grounded unlike russian fighters which were grounded when Soviet union collapsed because of unreliable spare supplies. Fortunately, because of our diversification in the form of mirages and Jaguars we survived.

Original price was 2.5 billion, now is 3.9 billion. Subs are delayed so what makes them so much better than our supply?

Subs were delayed on our part. The price before was 18,000 crore and now it is 20,000 crore, so the price increase is approximately 10%.

Check my above points... see if it still holds.

Some hold true but not all. Don't get me wrong, I would still go for Russian military hardware for 60-70% of the times but not 100%, never. It is a matter of being prudent and wise, diversification of military hardware makes things easier for us when there is problem in supply chain from not just russia even from Israel and France. I hope you understand.

We are thankful to russia for backing us in bad times and supplying us with military hardware that others wouldn't do. Truly an all weather friend of India.

 

[anoop_mig25]

indo russian frndship

No. IAF has submitted a large procurement plan for Mig-21 spares in late 1990's to Mig corporation and Mig didn't respond on time and didn't supply spare parts on time and this led to a huge number of mig-21 crashes and Mig completely blamed it on IAF.



Doesn't matter, it made a huge dent in perception of Russia as a reliable supplier.


Yeah, when our tankies wanted to evaluate T72S, old and used T72S were repainted as presented them as new to us, which our men have caught and the we had to go for completely new build T90S.



French has been reliable. We got all our supplies without hitches and Mirages were never grounded unlike russian fighters which were grounded when Soviet union collapsed because of unreliable spare supplies. Fortunately, because of our diversification in the form of mirages and Jaguars we survived.

Subs were delayed on our part. The price before was 18,000 crore and now it is 20,000 crore, so the price increase is approximately 10%.



Some hold true but not all. Don't get me wrong, I would still go for Russian military hardware for 60-70% of the times but not 100%, never. It is a matter of being prudent and wise, diversification of military hardware makes things easier for us when there is problem in supply chain from not just russia even from Israel and France. I hope you understand.

We are thankful to russia for backing us in bad times and supplying us with military hardware that others wouldn't do. Truly an all weather friend of India.

sir i dont to much of experience nor i am guy from any military background but still favour russians because u never know when uas gov or its congrees sstab us at back so i for indo russian frndship:67:

 

[Vladimir79]

No. IAF has submitted a large procurement plan for Mig-21 spares in late 1990's to Mig corporation and Mig didn't respond on time and didn't supply spare parts on time and this led to a huge number of mig-21 crashes and Mig completely blamed it on IAF.

India was offered there own MiG-21 factory so you could make the parts yourselves.

Russia offers MiG-21 spare parts factory to India

Corruption was revealed at HAL for poor quality control and faulty CIS parts..

Faulty parts being used in MiGs: HAL ex-staffer - India - NEWS - The Times of India

What more do you want from us? It wasn't we who are responsible, we can't help the disolution of the CCCP.

Doesn't matter, it made a huge dent in perception of Russia as a reliable supplier.

Was corruption in Russian naval industry a secret or surprise?

Yeah, when our tankies wanted to evaluate T72S, old and used T72S were repainted as presented them as new to us, which our men have caught and the we had to go for completely new build T90S.

They caught nothing, they suspected and they may very well have been. I am not going to deny something I did not witness, but what is the point? They were not up for sale, they were techinical demonstrators. If I am going to demonstate a tank model, what difference does it make if it is straight off the factory floor or a modernised chasis? It only matters if they sell you something representated as new, which they did not.

French has been reliable.

Really? It was the problem adjusting the Catherine thermals to India's extreme humidity and heat that caused alot of delay.

We got all our supplies without hitches and Mirages were never grounded

Lets talk about Mirage, the French forced you over the barrell with grounding half the fleet if you didn't accept their contract demands. They ripped you off when faced with the crises and you want to say they are better?

unlike russian fighters which were grounded when Soviet union collapsed because of unreliable spare supplies.

You expect the RF to collapse? Things have and are changing m8. You cannot look at the Yeltsin era of complete incompetance and classify us to it today.

Fortunately, because of our diversification in the form of mirages and Jaguars we survived.

The French ripped you off with a monthly surcharge... congratulations.

Subs were delayed on our part. The price before was 18,000 crore and now it is 20,000 crore, so the price increase is approximately 10%.

So when you have problems incorporating our production it is our fault, but when France does it then it is your fault? I am not bad mouthing France as they are our best partner, but don't make it look like they are some perfect supplier. Pro-Western Indian lobbies have been making us look like some incompetent organisation when it is not half as bad as they say.

We are thankful to russia for behind us in bad times and supplying us with military hardware that others wouldn't do. Truly an all weather friend of India.

Will Israel, US be so understanding as Russia when it comes to Indian strategic interest? You are falling right into the Amerikan's strategic trap. Pakistan is the US puppet that they arm to contain you while they arm you to contain China. When India does something US doesn't like, US and Israeli suppliers will cut you off and what then? We respect India as a true power with their own needs, not some pawn in a geo-political game. We have not gone into the multi-billion dollar arms market Pakistan could provide out of sheer respect for India and our relationship. I have no problem with India taking French suppliers as we do it ourselves, but playing the US game is trouble and you know it. The US and Israel tie your hands, we do not.

 

[Daredevil]

India was offered there own MiG-21 factory so you could make the parts yourselves.

Russia offers MiG-21 spare parts factory to India

Corruption was revealed at HAL for poor quality control and faulty CIS parts..

Faulty parts being used in MiGs: HAL ex-staffer - India - NEWS - The Times of India

What more do you want from us? It wasn't we who are responsible, we can't help the disolution of the CCCP.

Here I'm pasting an excerpt from an article written on Mig-21 crashes. I'm not saying Russia is entirely responsible for Mig-21 crashes but there were also deficiencies from Russian side. Even Indian defense industries are also responsible for this fiasco. Highlighted the relevant part.

Technical Defect accidents occur due to interplay of a complex set of factors. Technical defects leading to an accident could be either due to an inherent or an induced problem. The primary factors are:

Design inadequacies Inherent

Manufacturing/Overhaul Quality Induced

Maintenance Induced

Operational Factors Induced


MiG-21 has had its share of technical defects falling under all the categories but the situation is not one where every other aircraft is falling out of the sky. There were some design deficiencies - mostly engine related. These have been corrected with the help of original designers and indigenous industry viz. HAL. Treating them as limitations and modifying operating or maintenance procedures where necessary have tackled one or two areas that were difficult to redesign and would not have been cost effective. Jalandhar accident will also be tackled in similar steps.

There have been a number of specialist committees that have looked into some of the MiG-21 technical problems, the latest being Dr Kalam Committee. These teams make a number of recommendations of general nature like, “if you have a balanced diet, exercise, avoid stress, alcohol and tobacco you are likely to lead a healthy life”. The media and a number of self- styled experts start to believe that implementation of recommendations of a Committee is the panacea for all ills. The most important point to note is that no committee is able to address a specific problem. The specifics have to be tackled by catching the bull by the horn by the Operator, Maintainer, Designers and Engineers from the industry, IAF and HAL in our case. Only effective operator and industry interface can produce desired results. In the case of MiG-21, a number or technical problems have been successfully solved jointly by IAF and HAL. In some cases, the Russians did not have the answers or did not co-operate with us. They also tended to insinuate that the problem was only in India not elsewhere. It is also to the credit of Indians that the Russians admitted to some of the problems when they were confronted with solid scientific data.

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

Really? It was the problem adjusting the Catherine thermals to India's extreme humidity and heat that caused alot of delay.

Never heard about this.

Lets talk about Mirage, the French forced you over the barrell with grounding half the fleet if you didn't accept their contract demands. They ripped you off when faced with the crises and you want to say they are better?

I agree, French are expensive but they give the best tech. The IAF is most impressed with what Mirage2000 did in Kargil war.

You expect the RF to collapse? Things have and are changing m8. You cannot look at the Yeltsin era of complete incompetance and classify us to it today.

I don't expect Russia to collapse. But when Soviet Union collapsed, many of the spare parts for Mig-21s had to be sourced from different countries like Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Georgia etc and they were never of same quality and thus led to low-quality spares and some crashes as a result.

Will Israel, US be so understanding as Russia when it comes to Indian strategic interest? You are falling right into the Amerikan's strategic trap. Pakistan is the US puppet that they arm to contain you while they arm you to contain China. When India does something US doesn't like, US and Israeli suppliers will cut you off and what then? We respect India as a true power with their own needs, not some pawn in a geo-political game. We have not gone into the multi-billion dollar arms market Pakistan could provide out of sheer respect for India and our relationship. I have no problem with India taking French suppliers as we do it ourselves, but playing the US game is trouble and you know it. The US and Israel tie your hands, we do not.

But you are missing the big point that I've been making, which is, India should not put all its eggs in one basket. It should diversify its military hardware and not completely depend on just one country be it Russia/US/France/Israel.

In the context of MMRCA, it is not wise to choose another Russian fighter as we already have Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Su30-MKI, Mig-29s and FGFA in future. Moreover Mig-35 is not ready and it needs a lot of commitment from India for its future development. What India needs for MRCA is an off the shelf A/C which has been in production lines for a while but not something that is in development.

 

[p2prada]

can you tell us which advance russian bvr is he talking about inthe diagram and american ammram..because the latest operational ammram is AIm120c which he has show accurately plus the range of R-77m is also accurate

we are talking about aircraft here ..his tehories maybe worng like indonesia invading austrlia ....

He has not posted info on R-77M. But, he is talking about R-77T which is not yet ready. It is supposed to have a RF emitter as well as a IR passive seeker. I have no idea what R-77P is, but I think he is talking about R-77PD(PD= Extended range in Russian)

He is comparing paper BVR(R-77) with the Aim-120C. Nuts.

The latest operational AMRAAM is the extended AIM-120D.

also if u must know that austrlia is not being offered F-22 ...only F-35 in the future

That's the reason for his criticism of the F-35.

 

[SATISH]

Everyone knows Dr. Carlo Kopp is a delusional guy. He is a pro-Raptor supporter. He has been undermining the F 35 and the SH. But a few of his technical details are a bit credible.

 

[p2prada]

Here I'm pasting an excerpt from an article written on Mig-21 crashes. I'm not saying Russia is entirely responsible for Mig-21 crashes but there were also deficiencies from Russian side. Even Indian defense industries are also responsible for this fiasco. Highlighted the relevant part.

DD. Most of the Mig-21 crashes was our fault. Bad training and importing spares from dodgy countries like Kazakastan, Uzbeikistan and Ukraine. Once Russian supplies started after the bison upgrades, we had had fewer problems.

Never heard about this.

The French Thermals did not work in our desert heat and this was after Russian thermals failed. Our transmission systems failed too. But, we cannot blame anyone but ourselves for choosing Russian tanks over Arjun.

I agree, French are expensive but they give the best tech. The IAF is most impressed with what Mirage2000 did in Kargil war.

The Mirage succeeded mainly because of its design. Delta wings fly exceptionally well over mountains. High drag ensures they come down quickly and fly up from low altitudes even with low engine power because of their low wing loading and the thin atmosphere. At the same time, Su-30, Mig-27 or Jaguar will not be able to beat the Mirage is such conditions.

But you are missing the big point that I've been making, which is, India should not put all its eggs in one basket. It should diversify its military hardware and not completely depend on just one country be it Russia/US/France/Israel.

This logic is mainly applied by the media to control public opinion. The only big problem to date is the Gorshkov deal, mainly because of corruption and lethargy rather than some grand scheme by Russia. There is nothing wrong in depending over Russia. They have never made unnecessary demands in the past or even expected India to toe along their foreign policy. We have always had our own foreign policy and minimal Soviet or Russian interference in the past.

We must not diversify in such a way that it might completely stop our military in their tracks because of some issue in Myanmar that the US does not like.

Russia has provided diplomatic immunity a lot of times even after the Soviet Collapse.

In the context of MMRCA, it is not wise to choose another Russian fighter as we already have Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Su30-MKI, Mig-29s and FGFA in future. Moreover Mig-35 is not ready and it needs a lot of commitment from India for its future development. What India needs for MRCA is an off the shelf A/C which has been in production lines for a while but not something that is in development.

Most of IN ships are Russian. How many times have you seen IN complaining about spares and supply. Never.

And times are changing. We are not buying new planes to counter only PAF. We need the best planes available to beat down China when at war. It cannot be done with existing planes. The MRCA is the best bet as of now.

 

[Vladimir79]

Here I'm pasting an excerpt from an article written on Mig-21 crashes. I'm not saying Russia is entirely responsible for Mig-21 crashes but there were also deficiencies from Russian side. Even Indian defense industries are also responsible for this fiasco. Highlighted the relevant part.

There have been 50 countries flying Soviet MiG-21s for decades and there has not been the trouble as seen in India. We retired ours in the late ninties for a reason to avoid such problems. There is such a thing as service life and India should not have waited so long to retire the fleet. We offered several times for India to buy more MiG-29s to replace them. There is no way you can blame us for such difficiencies when it was poor judgement to keep them in operation for so long. We offered another possible solution, India's own factory. Plain and simple, it should have been retired.

Never heard about this.

The term used was not "adequately tropicalised."

I agree, French are expensive but they give the best tech. The IAF is most impressed with what Mirage2000 did in Kargil war.

I'm not talking about being expensive, I'm talking about them screwing you with monthly surcharge on contract renegotiations.

I don't expect Russia to collapse. But when Soviet Union collapsed, many of the spare parts for Mig-21s had to be sourced from different countries like Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Georgia etc and they were never of same quality and thus led to low-quality spares and some crashes as a result.

Few parts came from the RF and most of those were illegally sold. We offered India the plant so I don't see how anything is our fault.

But you are missing the big point that I've been making, which is, India should not put all its eggs in one basket. It should diversify its military hardware and not completely depend on just one country be it Russia/US/France/Israel.

I'm not saying don't diversify, I'm saying don't diversify with nations that have a political agenda in South Asia. Russia and France have formed a strong relationship in military technical cooperation with no strings attached. That is who you should be diversifying with, not the US and her puppet state.

In the context of MMRCA, it is not wise to choose another Russian fighter as we already have Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Su30-MKI, Mig-29s and FGFA in future. Moreover Mig-35 is not ready and it needs a lot of commitment from India for its future development. What India needs for MRCA is an off the shelf A/C which has been in production lines for a while but not something that is in development.

MiG-21 and MiG-27 are irrelavent when this deal comes around. You already have production and service facilities for MiG-29 which shares much commanality with MiG-35. This will make the cost of the tender cheaper and save on training and logistics. Not to mention MiG-29K will make fleet servicability share commanality in naval and air force aviation. The reason Russia should win is simple. We have already provided an infrastructure and logistics for this plane which is/will share commanality in both services. We give far more ToT than anyone. The reasons of cost and ToT we win hands down. If MoD doesn't care about cost and complete life of independence then go ahead with something else. Amerikans always find ways to keep sucking the money far after the contract has ended.

 

[p2prada]

There have been 50 countries flying Soviet MiG-21s for decades and there has not been the trouble as seen in India. We retired ours in the late ninties for a reason to avoid such problems. There is such a thing as service life and India should not have waited so long to retire the fleet. We offered several times for India to buy more MiG-29s to replace them. There is no way you can blame us for such difficiencies when it was poor judgement to keep them in operation for so long. We offered another possible solution, India's own factory. Plain and simple, it should have been retired.

We were broke at that time, late 80s. Perhaps the only country still accepting Roubles for Rupees at that time. The reasons were primarily financial.

The term used was not "adequately tropicalised."

At times, India becomes a Volcano. It is pretty well justified when journos say India is the toughest testing ground for weapons systems.

I'm not saying don't diversify, I'm saying don't diversify with nations that have a political agenda in South Asia. Russia and France have formed a strong relationship in military technical cooperation with no strings attached. That is who you should be diversifying with, not the US and her puppet state.

I agree with all your points except the last one. Israel has provided India with state of the art technology which even Russia cannot provide. That too with full ToT and unlimited license on their radar systems and other electronics. Israel has provided a lot of intelligence too on the Hawala network in the Middle East. Indian and Israeli relations are quite mature. Unkil States may create problems whenever there are ToT issues. But, then Israel comes over to India and redesigns the entire system in India itself....making it more Indian than Israeli (Read Greenpine system).

Note that the Greenpine development started some time in 2000, only 2 years after we faced unending sanctions from US and Europe.