MMRCA news and discussions.

[AJSINGH]

Firstly, Zhuk Me Phazatron is a PESA radar and not an AESA, its going on board our mig-29 upgrade, its a good radar but not in contention for the MRCA.

The Zhuk-ME features steered array radar antenna and is intended for the Mig-29 aircraft. It can detect airborne targets with a five square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) at ranges of 110-120 kilometers in the forward hemisphere or 50 kilometers in the rear hemisphere while tracking 10 targets and engaging four of them simultaneously. It can track up to two ground/sea targets simultaneously. In the air-to-ground mode, the Zhuk-ME is capable of detecting armored formations at ranges of 25 kilometers and railway bridges at ranges of 120 kilometers. In the air-to-sea mode, the radar system can detect a destroyer-sized target at ranges of 300 kilometers or a small target, such as a patrol boat, at 150 kilometers.

The mig-35's radar is the Zhuk AE AESA, which according to the picture below has max. detection range of 130km for a 3m2 rcs target. The R-77M ramjet has a max range of 180km and sadly this BVR can't be exploited by the Mig-35.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1602/dscn0121cy9.jpg

The SH's original APG-73 radar had a max detection range of 300km for target with 5m2 rcs. The APG-79 which in a space of 5 years has evolved from V-1 to V-3 has max detection range nearly double that with well over 500km. It can track 1m2 target like an f-16 at well over 160km enough range to deploy the new Aim120D which also has range over 180km. With this radar and missile the SH always has first shot. The SH can carry upto 14 A2A missiles in a single sortie 10 Aim-120s and 2 Aim-9x block 2/Asraam. It can carry 24 SDBs which can precisely hit targets in moving, hardened or air burst modes at well over 100km. JDAM, LJDAM, Paveway 1/2/3, JSOW A/C(land/sea targets), SLAM/ER, SDB, CBU-97 SFW, Harpoon Block 2/3, Maverick, JDAM-ER, SDB-2, AAGRM (anti radar missile capable of hitting shut down radars as well). SH can also play AWACS and tanker roles (and not just buddy refueling but with other aircraft as well). It has unprecedented battlefield awareness which goes beyond situational awareness.

This deal is going to SH, it already has a new GE 414 EPE engine with 118KN+ thrust per engine. The GE 414 intially had thrust of 92KN, a few years later now it is 98KN and Boeing is looking for export customer to launch the new engine. Block 3 upgrades beyond 2020 are well underway, the block-3 aircraft will have full-combat load combat radius of 1000NM or 1850km on internal fuel, super cruise, new EW suite, new jammers, Thrust vectoring etc. The USN plans to operate it well beyond 2040, the airframe has a life of 6000 hours before MLU after which its good for another 2500 hours. USN is still receiving the super hornet, its reasonably low life cycle costs and upgrade path looks good. Rafale has nothing beyond F-4, Typhoon beyond T-3, Gripen beyond NG, Falcon beyond the block 70, mig-35 beyond mig-35. Boeing is the only contender that is investing its own money into block 3 upgrades which will be ready by 2020 and if we choose to buy 74 more in options we can simply order the block-3 once all 126 have been delivered.

dude think about the JDAMS ....they need GPS system which america has got it...not india ...india is helping russia to set up the gps system ..for us and for the russains...speaking about super cruise its useless ...if u carry 7 a2a missile ..super cruise wont work...it only does at specific payload and and at specific height ....also TVC technology on hornet ...that wont happen because earlier also boeing offered TVC on hornet but US navy rejected it ...and i think u should know this....boeing will do all these upgrades only when there are enough forgein customer ...upgrades for only 160 indian hornet will be an issue ...whereas as u can see ...russia has no issue upgrading only 75 odd mig 29

oh yeh my bad about the ZHUKphazatron radar ...i got confused ....,,
right now our best option is MIG 35 although i would like to see SU 35 AND 37 in the competition also .....

 

[AJSINGH]

Firstly, Zhuk Me Phazatron is a PESA radar and not an AESA, its going on board our mig-29 upgrade, its a good radar but not in contention for the MRCA.

The Zhuk-ME features steered array radar antenna and is intended for the Mig-29 aircraft. It can detect airborne targets with a five square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) at ranges of 110-120 kilometers in the forward hemisphere or 50 kilometers in the rear hemisphere while tracking 10 targets and engaging four of them simultaneously. It can track up to two ground/sea targets simultaneously. In the air-to-ground mode, the Zhuk-ME is capable of detecting armored formations at ranges of 25 kilometers and railway bridges at ranges of 120 kilometers. In the air-to-sea mode, the radar system can detect a destroyer-sized target at ranges of 300 kilometers or a small target, such as a patrol boat, at 150 kilometers.

The mig-35's radar is the Zhuk AE AESA, which according to the picture below has max. detection range of 130km for a 3m2 rcs target. The R-77M ramjet has a max range of 180km and sadly this BVR can't be exploited by the Mig-35.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1602/dscn0121cy9.jpg

The SH's original APG-73 radar had a max detection range of 300km for target with 5m2 rcs. The APG-79 which in a space of 5 years has evolved from V-1 to V-3 has max detection range nearly double that with well over 500km. It can track 1m2 target like an f-16 at well over 160km enough range to deploy the new Aim120D which also has range over 180km. With this radar and missile the SH always has first shot. The SH can carry upto 14 A2A missiles in a single sortie 10 Aim-120s and 2 Aim-9x block 2/Asraam. It can carry 24 SDBs which can precisely hit targets in moving, hardened or air burst modes at well over 100km. JDAM, LJDAM, Paveway 1/2/3, JSOW A/C(land/sea targets), SLAM/ER, SDB, CBU-97 SFW, Harpoon Block 2/3, Maverick, JDAM-ER, SDB-2, AAGRM (anti radar missile capable of hitting shut down radars as well). SH can also play AWACS and tanker roles (and not just buddy refueling but with other aircraft as well). It has unprecedented battlefield awareness which goes beyond situational awareness.

This deal is going to SH, it already has a new GE 414 EPE engine with 118KN+ thrust per engine. The GE 414 intially had thrust of 92KN, a few years later now it is 98KN and Boeing is looking for export customer to launch the new engine. Block 3 upgrades beyond 2020 are well underway, the block-3 aircraft will have full-combat load combat radius of 1000NM or 1850km on internal fuel, super cruise, new EW suite, new jammers, Thrust vectoring etc. The USN plans to operate it well beyond 2040, the airframe has a life of 6000 hours before MLU after which its good for another 2500 hours. USN is still receiving the super hornet, its reasonably low life cycle costs and upgrade path looks good. Rafale has nothing beyond F-4, Typhoon beyond T-3, Gripen beyond NG, Falcon beyond the block 70, mig-35 beyond mig-35. Boeing is the only contender that is investing its own money into block 3 upgrades which will be ready by 2020 and if we choose to buy 74 more in options we can simply order the block-3 once all 126 have been delivered.

also assuming every ammerican BVR will hit the target is low possibility ...anyway BVR is a chicken game ...fire first and then disegage ...if an aerial battle happens between SU 30MKI and super hornet ...hornet maybe able to take the first shot ( although the rules still apply that u have visiually identify the target ) ..su will escape due to its superior manouvers and then engage the hornet in close combat in which it is proven that nothing can outmanouver the MKI

 

[AJSINGH]

Precisely due to the higher output, homing missiles can be aimed at the aircraft easily. Further iaf doesn't want an air superiority fighter. The mmrca aircraft would be primarily used in attack roles. The air-frame may be old, but there are upgrads to block 3 available. The stealth incorporated in it is the best available from the competition. The bvr missilses the americans are offering are the best in the world. The americans are serious about this competition, they have shut out the israelis. So gripen is out. Eurofighter not so much of a future for this consortium. F-16 -expired. Mig-35, the company's future itself is in contention. Let alone life time support. Looking at the dark horse the rafale, the cost and the issues with the mirage upgrade programme place it at a disadvantage. So the only aircraft that is even fit to pass to the future needs of the iaf is the f-18 super hornet.

also IAF does need a2a capabilities although i think 230 or 180 MKI will do the job just fine ...but we are not america or russia we cant afford dedicated bomber or ground attack aircraft ( if that was the casei would like IF to have A-10 thunderbolt ...damm good ground supprt aircraft ) ..so whichever aircraft wins MMRCA competition will not only do ground attack but also point defence and maybe offensive role and bomber escort mission .....so we need something which " jack of all trades " and i think Mg 35 is the best ....first thrust to weight ratio is higher(1.93) in Mig 35 and has 1200km range where as thrust to weight ratio for hornet is only( 0.93) ..and combat radius with 2 aim 9 missile is only 800km

 

[icecoolben]

Mmrca is not for air-superiority

The super hornet is not going to face of with our su-30 mki, is it? An eventuality, when war breaks bt india, pakistan , our su-mki take on f-16, j-10. The motorised divisions of paki army gather pace, who would strike at them precisely like a bomb truck. Which aircraft in our inventory is capable of night sorties to take out vital paki installations, provide air cover to rotary wing gun ship, all at once. Not the migs or su, but may the mirages . But they are old and their numbers aren't enough. Our force requires a mix of dedicated air superiority fighters, ground attack aircraft, interceptors etc. The super hornet can do all, then its well and good to pick the aircraft.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The super hornet is not going to face of with our su-30 mki, is it? An eventuality, when war breaks bt india, pakistan , our su-mki take on f-16, j-10. The motorised divisions of paki army gather pace, who would strike at them precisely like a bomb truck. Which aircraft in our inventory is capable of night sorties to take out vital paki installations, provide air cover to rotary wing gun ship, all at once. Not the migs or su, but may the mirages . But they are old and their numbers aren't enough. Our force requires a mix of dedicated air superiority fighters, ground attack aircraft, interceptors etc. The super hornet can do all, then its well and good to pick the aircraft.

how about the MIG29???

 

[venom]

MRCA – still a Challenge

It is an old saying ‘we learn from our mistakes”. IAF has shown (or say the decision makers) have remained totally ignorant of this saying.

We always knew the mig-21’s inducted in mid 60’s would last only till 90’s. So the process of identification and process of procurement should have commenced in early 80’s. We started hearing about floating an RFP for this famous 126 aircraft deal only during “TP’s’ time. After that “Keecha” continued to make enough noise for 3 years and “Bundle” also did not spare any forum during his 27 months. No body heard even his loud and articulative statements. Finally it was left to poor hepter pilot “Fali” to make a break through and a RFP was floated during 2007-2008.

Six foreign companies were short listed –Russian –Mig – 35 , US (Lock heed) F-16 , US –Boeing–F-18 super hornet , EADS –Euro flight Typhoon, Swedish –Grippen and the last entrant French Rafael . It may be of interest that “Keecha” during his tenure had insisted only on single tender selection of “French Rafael’, based on IAF’S good experience of flying French –Mirage -2000 (May be this was one of the factor that RFP never found its place during his tenure).

Interestingly the hurdle of RFP was over during “Falis” tenure and finally six fourth generation aircraft were short listed.

The process of trials and technical evaluation has just commenced. One has to remember that IAF operates all types of aircraft (Transport, fighters, hepters) to their ultimate limits. Some of the Air Forces who came in operational contact with this author were amazed and overawed when they landed with us, the IAF crews at high altitude airfield like Leh and Thoise . Once an aircraft is flight tested and technically evaluated in “Indian Environment” this establishes its absolute supremacy in any part of the ‘Globe’.

The nodal agency for any such trials and technical evaluation is ASTE (Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment). A house for “Test Pilots” and “Test Engineers”. The process demands training of these test pilots and test engineers with the OEM’S in their country to assure and establish basic parameters. Training at each of the OEMS, is this complete for all the six? A big question mark remains. Once the teams have completed their training they are to be at Bangalore ASTE for formalizing a testing plan under humid conditions, (nothing better than South and North East ), for very hot conditions deserts of Rajasthan and for High Altitude trials at Leh –not only during winter but summer as well (May to Aug). Summer at high altitude throws in different challenge (e.g. at 250 C surface temperature An -32 and IL -76 aircraft carry ‘0’ payloads while returning from Leh & Thoise. What kind of payloads, rotation speeds, approach speeds, touch down speeds there fighter aircraft would experience, one would have to evaluate carefully. It may be possible that OEM’S have no performance graphs available above 3 km elevation. (This happened when IL-76 aircraft were inducted in mid 80’s).

The process of evaluation is to be designed for each of the aircraft type meticulously and standard performance parameters are to be designed. Not only that different teams assigned this task are to be on the same performance level.

Air Chief giving details of “Field Evaluation Test” (FET’S), he said that in the first round, Indian pilots would visit the country of manufacture of each aircraft to see the facilities, in the second round, two the three aircraft from each manufactures would be flight tested in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh; and in the third round actual weapon firing test would be conducted in the manufactures or in another country as designated by the manufactures (not all European countries have firing ranges).
There would be a common leader but two or three different teams under him. The aircraft would go to Bangalore for performance system and humidity trials and to Leh for high attitude and cold weather trials.

The process of flight testing trials and evaluation is most demanding and time consuming. Comparing the data against common denominators with different set of trial teams is likely to bring in subjective assessment. To make the trials be absolutely successful in different environmental condition and them short list the contenders would be a Herculean task. One should not be surprised that all six may end up equally worthy of induction into the IAF.

What would decide them the selection:-
a. Life Expectancy
b. Life Costing
c. Maintenance support.
d. Strings Attached
e. Bilateral agreement on production and maintenance facilities in India.
f. Technology Transfer
g. Price negotiations
h. Political Considerations
j. Old friendship syndrome.


We are in a serious business of short fall of numbers which is equally important to technology. The total process (Trials – and short listing 24-36 months, PNC and Contract finalization 24-36 months, commencement of delivery 36 months). By the time aircraft gets inducted could be another 7-8 yrs, we have to shorten this period between 4-6 years, just keep the target of inductive 2014 before the next General Election. Congress Govts have a great deal of achievement of finalizing defence deals. Let that be Jaguars in 70’s Mirage-2000 in 80’, IL-76 in 80’s. Decisions makes are to be reminded again and again be quick and decide before the IAF’s Mig 21st close their wings in entirety.

Air Marshal Ashok K Goel (Retd.) PVSM, AVSM, VM: MRCA

 

[icecoolben]

F/a- 18 truly multi-role

how about the MIG29???

The mig- 35 is a mig-29 with tvc. The mig-29 was conceived along with su-27 to counter the american threat of f-16 and f-15. The migs were primarily air-superiority fighters. The migs were large in numbers and were tasked with frontline aviation, their tasks included
*providing local superiority by fending off f-15, f-16
*providing escort duties
*air-cover to advancing soviet motorised divisions
the heavier su-27 was tasked with taking out high profile nato targets deep in enemy territory. In other words taking the fight to the opposition.
In case of the f/a - 18, there was a need to replace no less than 6 aircraft in the naval inventory starting with the a-6, a-8 etc. Also the end of the cold war meant budget cuts, so the navy couldn't afford multiple programs. So the super hornet was selected to perform the following tasks,
*day/night strikes with precision guided weapons
*fighter escort
*close air support
*anti-air warfare
*suppression of enemy air defence
*reconnaissance
*air to air refuelling
*forward air control

from the above we can see that the super hornet is more suitable to the iaf needs than the mig-35. Since it is more of a contemperory fighter than the cold war doctrined mig-29 ovt.

 

[AJSINGH]

The mig- 35 is a mig-29 with tvc. The mig-29 was conceived along with su-27 to counter the american threat of f-16 and f-15. The migs were primarily air-superiority fighters. The migs were large in numbers and were tasked with frontline aviation, their tasks included
*providing local superiority by fending off f-15, f-16
*providing escort duties
*air-cover to advancing soviet motorised divisions
the heavier su-27 was tasked with taking out high profile nato targets deep in enemy territory. In other words taking the fight to the opposition.
In case of the f/a - 18, there was a need to replace no less than 6 aircraft in the naval inventory starting with the a-6, a-8 etc. Also the end of the cold war meant budget cuts, so the navy couldn't afford multiple programs. So the super hornet was selected to perform the following tasks,
*day/night strikes with precision guided weapons
*fighter escort
*close air support
*anti-air warfare
*suppression of enemy air defence
*reconnaissance
*air to air refuelling
*forward air control

from the above we can see that the super hornet is more suitable to the iaf needs than the mig-35. Since it is more of a contemperory fighter than the cold war doctrined mig-29 ovt.

well first Mig 29 was developed before the F-16 and F-18 ...it featured helmet mounted vision and IRST ball which came later in F-16 and F-18 ....also what u are saying about f-18 are only in super hornet version...like recon and a2a refulelling ...F-18 can now act as recon aircraft because of the new ASEA APG 79 radar ...before US NAVY used hawkeye ...forward air control is still debatable ...atleast IAF does not need it ...since Mig 35 IS COMMING UP WITH asea radar ...it can also act as mini awacs...day and night strike missions now can be achieved by Mig 27 also and also Mig 29 SMT ...where as Mig 35 do the same job as hornet and what i am trying to say is ...buying completely new combat aircraft such as hornet would take time for IAF to form tactics ...operation doctrine....and time is something IAF dose not have ...plus since our majority of our aircraft are of russian origin ....having NATO weapons are not compatible with the digital link.....that was the problem IAF faced in red flag excerise 2008 ......so the best ...the cheapest and with no strings attached is MIG 35.......

 

[AJSINGH]

The super hornet is not going to face of with our su-30 mki, is it? An eventuality, when war breaks bt india, pakistan , our su-mki take on f-16, j-10. The motorised divisions of paki army gather pace, who would strike at them precisely like a bomb truck. Which aircraft in our inventory is capable of night sorties to take out vital paki installations, provide air cover to rotary wing gun ship, all at once. Not the migs or su, but may the mirages . But they are old and their numbers aren't enough. Our force requires a mix of dedicated air superiority fighters, ground attack aircraft, interceptors etc. The super hornet can do all, then its well and good to pick the aircraft.

my point here is MIG 35 is superior than super hornet ...for night sorties we have mirage ...even Mig 21 BIS WILL ALSO BE euiped now....Mirage are undergoing upgrades to Mirage 2000-5....with entirely new radar and avionics .....plz note this point that we buying weapons from america ...u think that there will be no strings attached .....not some outdated weapons ..maybe the same weapons they have right now .....for example when america was developing F-16 ...it was already funding isreal for another version of F-16 ...when america got to know that israel came up with superior aircraft ..america stopped its funding and israeli aircraft ...now imagine ..if there is any country which america trust is israel ...to them also they stopped the funding ...just think what will happen to india ...if in future we go seprate ways in international politics ...bye bye upgrades for super hornet and welcome more sanctions

 

[F-14]

but then sir there are more Geo-political considerations that the yanks have to make before theyconsider sanctions against India this time round but i am starting to think what about spliting the order like this

MiG-35 for all the MiG-29 squadrons
Rafale for all the Mirage sqadrons
F-18's for old number plated MiG- squadrons

 

[icecoolben]

Our force mix after mmrca

Thats completely insane, once v reduce the aircraft by splitting, the issue of tot cannot be resolved, v are in it both for the aircraft and the technology.
Our force mix should be in the future would be like this
1.dedicated air-superiority multi-role fighter,
2.multi-role air-craft capable of being a bomb truck,
3.a point interceptor with multi-role capability.

The su-30 mki for air-superiority, f-18 for attack role multi-role, tejas for point interception.

As older aircraft are considered, Mig-21 -decommissioned, mig-27 gifted free to african allies, mirages- to a needy neighbour .

the contemperory fighters of now mig-29, jaguars, beginning to be replaced by fgfa, tejas mk-2. super hornets block 3 should be our force mix by 2022.

 

[John]

AJ now you come and start this all over again, read some of my older posts. do you think our MOD, IAF or govt. is so stupid as to not consider the consequences of going for US aircraft or do you really think we have no idea of our past relations with US. again stop bitching about US because its because of SH we have such a competitive deal, the mig-35 is inferior to the SH in almost every way. The SH has been upgraded many times in the last 10 years it been in service, its new engine gives its a T/W ratio of over 1 which is good enough for any fighter, IAF pilots are already very impressed with its radar, its high alpha agility and maneuvering, its easy to fly and its cheaper to operate and maintain than the mig-35 on any given day. Student pilots learn to fly it with confidence in about 2 hours.

secondly US BVR missiles not effective ?? thats absolute bullcrap, firstly they are the only missiles that are combat proven, matter of fact Aim-120A/B/C, Aim-7s have been used in battle and they have successfully downed even aircraft like , mig-21, mig-23s, mig-29 and even mig-25s which can simply outrun most missiles flying at over mach 2.5.

Also 1/2 of our very own inventory of R-77 and R-27 missiles don't work. Thats well over 1000 missiles not functional. You wanna compare missiles lets not do it, Russian missiles are not reliable. I would rather trust a US missiles to hit than a Russian missile with such bad quality that more than 1/3 of them aren't worthy of going on our aircraft. This problem exists with KH-31a/p missiles which are our primary anti radiation missiles deployed primary from the MKI.

so please lets not talk about Russian genius, it means nothing if we cant use them in real combat, hence its sad to say till we arm even our mkis, mig-29s with Astra missiles even they are just good for air shows. Iaf is pissed off at many aspects of Russian aircraft and the mig-35 has the least chance of winning this. Every single deal with Russia is delayed and has cost overruns, quality is still well below standards.

Hence the Aim-120D is a better bet than the Russian r-77M. The SH as of now has IRST on fuel tank but from 2011 onwards it goes on board the fuselage. LM is building the SH's IRST its the similar one that's on board the f-22, the SH is maneuverable enough to have scored gun kill on the f-22.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=16843

The SH carries more A2A missiles than any other aircraft in the world in a single sortie, its can carry 14 A2A missiles. now that's 14 shots at victory which is 4 more missiles than Rafale and 2 more than the mki. 12 Aim-120Ds will do the trick. Its radar has more than double the detection range of the mig-35. again get it into you head, do u really think US is so stupid to put sanctions on the second fastest growing economy in the world or on a country which is bound to be the largest market for goods and service by 2030. do u know how many US companies have essential business in India?? Screw your stupidity, please don't bring such mindless drivel to a serious discussion. If India was so suspicious of the US an RFP wouldn't have been sent to US companies, so please stop mentioning about sanctions and start looking at the performance and other attributes that will actually form the decision making process of choosing an aircraft. We have ordered C-130J and are interested in ordering more of them, we have order P-8s, Chinooks will be ordered because they are better than the competition the mi-26 which is old has problems with spares etc, the Apache will win because it has the highest service ceiling of nearly 21000 ft which is much higher than competition, the V-22 will acquired for special ops, C-17s, we are buying more and more US, so no cares about what you think regarding our growing relations with US the Govt, is not shying away from buying US. So please lets focus on abilities and not some bullshit situation which will never happen. Do you know how many US companies we can block if they indeed put sanctions on us, the US companies will loose enormous business.

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-Super-Bug-loadout.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/fa-18-ef-superhornet9.jpg

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ now you come and start this all over again, read some of my older posts. do you think our MOD, IAF or govt. is so stupid as to not consider the consequences of going for US aircraft or do you really think we have no idea of our past relations with US. again stop bitching about US because its because of SH we have such a competitive deal, the mig-35 is inferior to the SH in almost every way. The SH has been upgraded many times in the last 10 years it been in service, its new engine gives its a T/W ratio of over 1 which is good enough for any fighter, IAF pilots are already very impressed with its radar, its high alpha agility and maneuvering, its easy to fly and its cheaper to operate and maintain than the mig-35 on any given day. Student pilots learn to fly it with confidence in about 2 hours.

secondly US BVR missiles not effective ?? thats absolute bullcrap, firstly they are the only missiles that are combat proven, matter of fact Aim-120A/B/C, Aim-7s have been used in battle and they have successfully downed even aircraft like , mig-21, mig-23s, mig-29 and even mig-25s which can simply outrun most missiles flying at over mach 2.5.

Also 1/2 of our very own inventory of R-77 and R-27 missiles don't work. Thats well over 1000 missiles not functional. You wanna compare missiles lets not do it, Russian missiles are not reliable. I would rather trust a US missiles to hit than a Russian missile with such bad quality that more than 1/3 of them aren't worthy of going on our aircraft. This problem exists with KH-31a/p missiles which are our primary anti radiation missiles deployed primary from the MKI.

so please lets not talk about Russian genius, it means nothing if we cant use them in real combat, hence its sad to say till we arm even our mkis, mig-29s with Astra missiles even they are just good for air shows. Iaf is pissed off at many aspects of Russian aircraft and the mig-35 has the least chance of winning this. Every single deal with Russia is delayed and has cost overruns, quality is still well below standards.

Hence the Aim-120D is a better bet than the Russian r-77M. The SH as of now has IRST on fuel tank but from 2011 onwards it goes on board the fuselage. LM is building the SH's IRST its the similar one that's on board the f-22, the SH is maneuverable enough to have scored gun kill on the f-22.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=16843

The SH carries more A2A missiles than any other aircraft in the world in a single sortie, its can carry 14 A2A missiles. now that's 14 shots at victory which is 4 more missiles than Rafale and 2 more than the mki. 12 Aim-120Ds will do the trick. Its radar has more than double the detection range of the mig-35. again get it into you head, do u really think US is so stupid to put sanctions on the second fastest growing economy in the world or on a country which is bound to be the largest market for goods and service by 2030. do u know how many US companies have essential business in India?? Screw your stupidity, please don't bring such mindless drivel to a serious discussion. If India was so suspicious of the US an RFP wouldn't have been sent to US companies, so please stop mentioning about sanctions and start looking at the performance and other attributes that will actually form the decision making process of choosing an aircraft. We have ordered C-130J and are interested in ordering more of them, we have order P-8s, Chinooks will be ordered because they are better than the competition the mi-26 which is old has problems with spares etc, the Apache will win because it has the highest service ceiling of nearly 21000 ft which is much higher than competition, the V-22 will acquired for special ops, C-17s, we are buying more and more US, so no cares about what you think regarding our growing relations with US the Govt, is not shying away from buying US. So please lets focus on abilities and not some bullshit situation which will never happen. Do you know how many US companies we can block if they indeed put sanctions on us, the US companies will loose enormous business.

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-Super-Bug-loadout.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/fa-18-ef-superhornet9.jpg

dude no offence but SH not easy to operate ...i have people in my family who have been in indian armed forces for long ...in my fathers generation ..i have members who are serving in indian air force .....so i do keep talking to them ...yes they agree that SH is beast of a machine ...but in no way cheap in operating ...plus they have to set up enire new infrastucture....and support system ...( the thrust to weight ratio fo SH is 0.93 and Mig 35 is 1.93 ...so u got that wrong )...USA BVR missile are good but not as accurate as they project them to be ...and combat proven that does ot count much because US has fought wih inferior air force always ...like iraq air force.....so if they are combat proven that dose not mean they are100% effective ....
(when have they down Mig 25 i would like to know )....and what do u think that Mig 29 has not been upgraded ..well yes when soveit union was finished they were no upgrades for a while ..but now they are ontrack..hell our new Mig 29SMT can take on F-16IN SH ......and talking about R-77 ...check the raw facts and they all say that R-77 is better missile ..one example the in vietnam war AIM -9 took over 8 second of lock on ...can u believe that ...8 seconds...russian missile are not reliable...sorry cant agree on that i believe u have read the CAG report that IAF 1/2 missile dont work...well that was pure bullshit ....they are the most reliable ...once example ..when 1988 Mig 35 was being prepared for sortie ..they accidently left R-77 outside in -15c temparature and they put that very missile on the next day and it worked without any glitches ......and every single deal being delayed ...yeh right ..its true for the aicraft carrier but if u see MIG 29 came on time in 1980 and as well for the new aircraft carrier ...Su 30mki was also on time....so were the frigates for IN.....sapres are no longer a problem ...because we are maufacturing them in india ....and if at all ...we buy Mig 35 ....russia wont leave any oppurtunity in upgrading them..hell they dont want to lose india....
SH is old airframe 1970 and take only 7g...whereas Mig is entirely new airframe yet proven because of Mig29...exprience ....and being SH radar being more powerfull than the Mig 35 ....that is not true because of ZHUK radar has 60% more output that the APG 81 radar ( that on JSF u know ) ......and SH can carry only 11 not 14 and MIg 9 ...and when u carry 11 missile ...your aircraft cannot fly as fast or as high or it is not as manouverable...and for a fact ..USnavy SH have not yet in any sortie carried 11 a2a missile

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ now you come and start this all over again, read some of my older posts. do you think our MOD, IAF or govt. is so stupid as to not consider the consequences of going for US aircraft or do you really think we have no idea of our past relations with US. again stop bitching about US because its because of SH we have such a competitive deal, the mig-35 is inferior to the SH in almost every way. The SH has been upgraded many times in the last 10 years it been in service, its new engine gives its a T/W ratio of over 1 which is good enough for any fighter, IAF pilots are already very impressed with its radar, its high alpha agility and maneuvering, its easy to fly and its cheaper to operate and maintain than the mig-35 on any given day. Student pilots learn to fly it with confidence in about 2 hours.

secondly US BVR missiles not effective ?? thats absolute bullcrap, firstly they are the only missiles that are combat proven, matter of fact Aim-120A/B/C, Aim-7s have been used in battle and they have successfully downed even aircraft like , mig-21, mig-23s, mig-29 and even mig-25s which can simply outrun most missiles flying at over mach 2.5.

Also 1/2 of our very own inventory of R-77 and R-27 missiles don't work. Thats well over 1000 missiles not functional. You wanna compare missiles lets not do it, Russian missiles are not reliable. I would rather trust a US missiles to hit than a Russian missile with such bad quality that more than 1/3 of them aren't worthy of going on our aircraft. This problem exists with KH-31a/p missiles which are our primary anti radiation missiles deployed primary from the MKI.

so please lets not talk about Russian genius, it means nothing if we cant use them in real combat, hence its sad to say till we arm even our mkis, mig-29s with Astra missiles even they are just good for air shows. Iaf is pissed off at many aspects of Russian aircraft and the mig-35 has the least chance of winning this. Every single deal with Russia is delayed and has cost overruns, quality is still well below standards.

Hence the Aim-120D is a better bet than the Russian r-77M. The SH as of now has IRST on fuel tank but from 2011 onwards it goes on board the fuselage. LM is building the SH's IRST its the similar one that's on board the f-22, the SH is maneuverable enough to have scored gun kill on the f-22.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=16843

The SH carries more A2A missiles than any other aircraft in the world in a single sortie, its can carry 14 A2A missiles. now that's 14 shots at victory which is 4 more missiles than Rafale and 2 more than the mki. 12 Aim-120Ds will do the trick. Its radar has more than double the detection range of the mig-35. again get it into you head, do u really think US is so stupid to put sanctions on the second fastest growing economy in the world or on a country which is bound to be the largest market for goods and service by 2030. do u know how many US companies have essential business in India?? Screw your stupidity, please don't bring such mindless drivel to a serious discussion. If India was so suspicious of the US an RFP wouldn't have been sent to US companies, so please stop mentioning about sanctions and start looking at the performance and other attributes that will actually form the decision making process of choosing an aircraft. We have ordered C-130J and are interested in ordering more of them, we have order P-8s, Chinooks will be ordered because they are better than the competition the mi-26 which is old has problems with spares etc, the Apache will win because it has the highest service ceiling of nearly 21000 ft which is much higher than competition, the V-22 will acquired for special ops, C-17s, we are buying more and more US, so no cares about what you think regarding our growing relations with US the Govt, is not shying away from buying US. So please lets focus on abilities and not some bullshit situation which will never happen. Do you know how many US companies we can block if they indeed put sanctions on us, the US companies will loose enormous business.

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-Super-Bug-loadout.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/fa-18-ef-superhornet9.jpg

u think apache is better than KA 50 ...just because of higher celling
take a look at this
Like other Kamov helicopters, it features Kamov's characteristic contra-rotating co-axial rotor system, which removes the need for the entire tail-rotor assembly and improves the aircraft's aerobatic qualities - it can perform loops, rolls, and “the funnel” (circle-strafing) where the aircraft maintains a line-of-sight to the target while flying circles of varying altitude, elevation, and airspeed around it. Using two rotors means that a smaller rotor with slower-moving rotor tips can be used compared to a single rotor design. Since the speed of the advancing rotor tip is a primary limitation to the maximum speed of a helicopter, this allows a faster maximum speed than helicopters such as the AH-64. The elimination of the tail rotor is a qualitative advantage because the torque-countering tail rotor can use up to 30% of engine power. Furthermore, the vulnerable boom and rear gearbox are fairly common causes of helicopter losses in combat; the Black Shark's entire transmission presents a comparatively small target to ground fire. Kamov maintains that the co-axial drive assembly is built to survive hits from 23 mm ammunition like the other vital parts of the helicopter.[citation needed] The zero native torque also allows the aircraft to be fairly immune to wind strength and direction, and to have an unsurpassed turn rate in all travel speed envelopes.......
plus they are cheaper KA 50...and dont think US wont sanction india....jst wait and watch if we do our next neuclear test .....and we will be buying Mi26 ...chinook is not hevy lift helicopter where as Mi 26 ..u are comparing oranges and mangos ......and the reason we are buying C-130 is because they are being deliverd faster ......and forget about USAF selling us V-22 ...in our wildest dreams


and do not try to insult me .....keep the discussion without insults ...or otherwise when i wil start u wont like it

 

[p2prada]

thats completely insane, once v reduce the aircraft by splitting, the issue of tot cannot be resolved, v are in it both for the aircraft and the technology.
Our force mix should be in the future would be like this
1.dedicated air-superiority multi-role fighter,
2.multi-role air-craft capable of being a bomb truck,
3.a point interceptor with multi-role capability.

1. Mki/fgfa
2. Mca/mrca
3. Lca

 

[NSG_Blackcats]

Strategic considerations may influence MMRCA deal

 

[AJSINGH]

I just showed you proof of it carrying 12 BVR A2A missiles, plus 2 WVR. Who gives a **** about agility while firing BVR missiles. The new GE 414 EPE allows for a T/W ratio of 1.06 and the mig-29 has T/W ratio of 1.1 something and not two. no aircraft in the world has T/W ratio over the f-22 which is roughly 1.3. Mig-29s hardly has any PGMs.

KA-50 is single pilot chopper, try flying a helo alone in combat, one of the hardest things to do in the world. yes chinook and mi-26 are different leagues but they are in contention for 16 heavy lift choppers, the Chinook has an edge because it can go to higher ceiling, last i checked we still have very high mountain regions in India which is why Apache will win because it is possibly the only attack helo than could land in Siachen helipad. please the new Apache can control upto 3 uavs, fire over over 30 laser guided Hydra 70 rockets to range of 12 km, K-50 has nothing like it. Its ceiling is low, it wont even get to Kargil. btw i am not tryin to insult you, i am insulting you, your a moron and no doubt about it.

IN and IAF are interested in V-22, please do some research before you bring shit to me. When LM has already shown off AEGIS to IN what the **** is the V-22.

u think agility is not required ..well then u are dead in a2a combat ...fly fire some bvr ..they miss ....and next thing u know u are ejecting ....good satergy ....do u even now by carying 14( as u said but it can carry only 11) u can have enough range and the fuel will deplete faster because more payload ...about KA 50 do even know it has upgrade called KA 52 which has higher celling .....and about single pilot ...it has enough avionics to do the job of the second pilot and if needed another specific indian variant can be built ....about T/W ratio u got that worng ....its 0.93 of SH ...and 1.43 for Mig 35 AND FOR THE MIG29K AND MIG 29SMT its 1.29 ...see for yourself
Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Mig 29 for that PGM is being developed by India and russia jointly

 

[John]

for that Mi 35 is doing excellent job ...plus after kargil conflcit ....IAF did not want its helicopter to do sortie over there ...because they are vulnerable from shoulder mounted stinger missile ....so thinking of ground support in kashmir is not an option ....combat aircraft can provide air cover ....

where it will be used is not for us to decide, when IAF buys something its looks at its capabilities, Apache can go higher than the others and can deploy log range fire and forget missiles,even the simple Hydra is now guided which means it unparalleled plus block 3 can control upto 3 UAVS, all this added capabilities will ensure its win. Due to its long range weapons with over 8-12km ranges, Stingers don't have the range enough to reach the Apache. Its the most combat proven attack chopper ever and you can be damn sure it will find its way into the AF. no doubt the mi-35 is doing a good job but soon the Chinook will do a better job, it can carry more to a higher altitude. btw this is the mrca thread lets take the helo discussion to the helo thread.

F-16E/Fs to arrive in India for evaluation on Monday

Three F-16 advanced fighters of US aerospace major Lockheed Martin will soar into the skies Monday for the flight evaluation trials (FET) of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) the Indian air Force (IAF) is seeking to replace its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet.

“We are flying in three F-16s from Dubai to Bangalore Aug 31 for the month-long field trials. The fourth-generation advanced fighters are currently with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force. They will be flown by our test pilots along with US Air Force pilots,” a senior Lockheed Martin official told.

In the run-up to the trials, to be conducted in Bangalore, near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan desert and in high-altitude Leh in September, Lockheed Martin has flown-in an advance team, including a logistics group, for ground preparations.

“The F-16s, with fifth generation capabilities, will demonstrate to the IAF their strike power, speed, accuracy and its awesome 360-degree maneouvers, with its sophisticated active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar,” Lockheed Martin director Michael R. Griswold said.

If Lockheed Martin bags the lucrative order, estimated to be about $10 billion at current prices for 126 aircraft, it will manufacture an Indian version, christened F-16IN Super Viper that will carry about 8,000kg of conventional weapons or nuclear warheads.

The other five aircraft in the fray for the order are Boeing’s F/A-181N Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Saab Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per the global tender floated last year, the winning bidder will have to deliver 18 aircraft in fly-away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under a technology transfer deal.

Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.

The F-16 trials will take place a fortnight after Boeing flew in its two Super Hornets Aug 14 and conducted trials for about 10 days from Aug 17 in Bangalore before taking-off to Jaisalmer and Leh for a series of trials in hot and cold weather conditions.

During the second round of field trials, senior IAF test pilots will join Lockheed Martin test pilots to fly the tandem-seater fighters for a firsthand feel of its capabilities and technologies, especially its electronic warfare abilities.

“Initially, the IAF pilots will co-pilot the aircraft, taking controls mid-air after familiarising themselves with the systems and the advanced navigation aids. In the subsequent trials, the IAF pilots will take command of the aircraft for evaluating its various parameters, including use of weapons,” a Lockheed Martin official said but declined to be named.

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for the flight trials, which will be conducted in three stages: pilot familiarisation, field trials and weapons systems trials. The third stage will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

The technical evaluation was completed early this year after the six manufacturers responded to the IAF’s Request for Proposal (RFP) in August 2007. “All the trials are on a no-cost-no-commitment basis. The IAF will buy only the aircraft that meets all the parameters in terms of capabilities and cost,” a defence analyst told.

F-16E/Fs to arrive in India for evaluation on Monday IDRW.ORG

 

[ahmedsid]

STAY ON TOPIC, and Strictly No Curse Words. What follows will be Infractions followed by Bans if Necessary!

 

[Vladimir79]

more than 1/2 of Russian BVRs in our inventory don't work, now if we buy mig till we get the Astra we still have to buy more r-77s, kh-31a/p because most of them which are supposed to work, don't. Does IAF need to go through this bullshit??

I was not aware CAG had completed their report. Were you aware the shelf life of R-77 is 8 years in the box controlled, 5 years in the box uncontrolled, and one on the trolly ? Were you aware IAF has been keeping them in storage since in 1996? Were you aware that at the average procurement rate of missiles are going to mean 40% are past their service lives? Were you aware it is common procedure to test old missiles first to write them off?

There are far too many variables that have not been revealed like storage conditions, testing age, and write offs. Not to mention the utter smear campaign the US and Israeli lobbies in India have been making to get them away from Russian arms. The Krasnopol sham should be evidence enough of that. It is all an attempt to steal MMRCA from us.