MMRCA news and discussions.

[Vladimir79]

I agree with all your points except the last one. Israel has provided India with state of the art technology which even Russia cannot provide. That too with full ToT and unlimited license on their radar systems and other electronics. Israel has provided a lot of intelligence too on the Hawala network in the Middle East. Indian and Israeli relations are quite mature. Unkil States may create problems whenever there are ToT issues. But, then Israel comes over to India and redesigns the entire system in India itself....making it more Indian than Israeli (Read Greenpine system).

Note that the Greenpine development started some time in 2000, only 2 years after we faced unending sanctions from US and Europe.

The Green Pine radar is obsolete and to be replaced with Swordfish. India has taken it upon itself to divest from reliance by domestic production. This is an example of what India must do, base the next generation of technology from Israeli systems and then cut them out of the loop. If India is forced to rely on them for any protracted amount of time, Unkill Sam can come and have them cut off all ties. Israel is a good source for stealing US technology, we are doing it ourselves. Strangely enough, Israel doesn't seem to mind.

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ,

You say, IAF don't have time to form operational doctrine,tactics and infrastructure for SH but they can wait for 7 years till the MiG 35 MKI rolls out.Kind of step motherly it seems.
My doubt is that can't IAF acquire the major break throughs claimed by MiG 35 in Radar,avionics,TVC etc in their current fleet of MiG 29s.The fact that airframes are old is accepted.

'Maritime strike fighter in Multirole', regardless of whether the cat is black or white it should catch the mouse.

After all every contender except MiG requires new infra and tactics.Doctrine may remain the same what IAF now have.

dude we have to wait anyway for 7 years for any aircraft to be recieved by IAF ......Mig 29 are undergoing upgrade know as Mig 29smt ...but mig 35 is new airframe desgin and engine and avionics ...that means the old Mig 29 have to be riped off completely to convert it into Mig 5 ....answer this why has not any airforce in the world accquired any " maritime strike fighter " into its fleet ...?
doctrine changes with aircraft ...its aircraft specific ...u cant ask Mig 21 to do bombing missions ..in the same way ...

 

[AJSINGH]

No. IAF has submitted a large procurement plan for Mig-21 spares in late 1990's to Mig corporation and Mig didn't respond on time and didn't supply spare parts on time and this led to a huge number of mig-21 crashes and Mig completely blamed it on IAF.



Doesn't matter, it made a huge dent in perception of Russia as a reliable supplier.


Yeah, when our tankies wanted to evaluate T72S, old and used T72S were repainted as presented them as new to us, which our men have caught and the we had to go for completely new build T90S.



French has been reliable. We got all our supplies without hitches and Mirages were never grounded unlike russian fighters which were grounded when Soviet union collapsed because of unreliable spare supplies. Fortunately, because of our diversification in the form of mirages and Jaguars we survived.

Subs were delayed on our part. The price before was 18,000 crore and now it is 20,000 crore, so the price increase is approximately 10%.



Some hold true but not all. Don't get me wrong, I would still go for Russian military hardware for 60-70% of the times but not 100%, never. It is a matter of being prudent and wise, diversification of military hardware makes things easier for us when there is problem in supply chain from not just russia even from Israel and France. I hope you understand.

We are thankful to russia for backing us in bad times and supplying us with military hardware that others wouldn't do. Truly an all weather friend of India.

you are right in a way ..although i also do not want Indian Armed forces to be 100% russian equipment ..but what i am saying is that when it comes to important technology ..like MMRCA ...we should go the russia way ...for transport and lesser imprortant role we can buy equipmet from nato

 

[AJSINGH]

Here I'm pasting an excerpt from an article written on Mig-21 crashes. I'm not saying Russia is entirely responsible for Mig-21 crashes but there were also deficiencies from Russian side. Even Indian defense industries are also responsible for this fiasco. Highlighted the relevant part.





Never heard about this.


I agree, French are expensive but they give the best tech. The IAF is most impressed with what Mirage2000 did in Kargil war.



I don't expect Russia to collapse. But when Soviet Union collapsed, many of the spare parts for Mig-21s had to be sourced from different countries like Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Georgia etc and they were never of same quality and thus led to low-quality spares and some crashes as a result.



But you are missing the big point that I've been making, which is, India should not put all its eggs in one basket. It should diversify its military hardware and not completely depend on just one country be it Russia/US/France/Israel.

In the context of MMRCA, it is not wise to choose another Russian fighter as we already have Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Su30-MKI, Mig-29s and FGFA in future. Moreover Mig-35 is not ready and it needs a lot of commitment from India for its future development. What India needs for MRCA is an off the shelf A/C which has been in production lines for a while but not something that is in development.

just note this that first MMRCA aircraft will land after 7 years for IAF....so enough time for the Mig 35 to develop .....also in 1980 MIG 29 was being developed ....india was the first country to get the export version of that aircraft in 1986 ...at that time the Mig 29 was stil in development ...and that aircraft turned out to be fine

 

[AJSINGH]

Everyone knows Dr. Carlo Kopp is a delusional guy. He is a pro-Raptor supporter. He has been undermining the F 35 and the SH. But a few of his technical details are a bit credible.

like what imformation is inaccurate ?

 

[AJSINGH]

There have been 50 countries flying Soviet MiG-21s for decades and there has not been the trouble as seen in India. We retired ours in the late ninties for a reason to avoid such problems. There is such a thing as service life and India should not have waited so long to retire the fleet. We offered several times for India to buy more MiG-29s to replace them. There is no way you can blame us for such difficiencies when it was poor judgement to keep them in operation for so long. We offered another possible solution, India's own factory. Plain and simple, it should have been retired.



The term used was not "adequately tropicalised."



I'm not talking about being expensive, I'm talking about them screwing you with monthly surcharge on contract renegotiations.



Few parts came from the RF and most of those were illegally sold. We offered India the plant so I don't see how anything is our fault.



I'm not saying don't diversify, I'm saying don't diversify with nations that have a political agenda in South Asia. Russia and France have formed a strong relationship in military technical cooperation with no strings attached. That is who you should be diversifying with, not the US and her puppet state.




MiG-21 and MiG-27 are irrelavent when this deal comes around. You already have production and service facilities for MiG-29 which shares much commanality with MiG-35. This will make the cost of the tender cheaper and save on training and logistics. Not to mention MiG-29K will make fleet servicability share commanality in naval and air force aviation. The reason Russia should win is simple. We have already provided an infrastructure and logistics for this plane which is/will share commanality in both services. We give far more ToT than anyone. The reasons of cost and ToT we win hands down. If MoD doesn't care about cost and complete life of independence then go ahead with something else. Amerikans always find ways to keep sucking the money far after the contract has ended.

rightly said my friend ....good to know that russians are supporting us here also ....ppl need to know the true genius of russians and the way they have helped us in weapons ...also i would like IAF should have S-400

 

[p2prada]

The Green Pine radar is obsolete and to be replaced with Swordfish. India has taken it upon itself to divest from reliance by domestic production. This is an example of what India must do, base the next generation of technology from Israeli systems and then cut them out of the loop. If India is forced to rely on them for any protracted amount of time, Unkill Sam can come and have them cut off all ties. Israel is a good source for stealing US technology, we are doing it ourselves. Strangely enough, Israel doesn't seem to mind.

Sir, the Greenpine itself is called Swordfish here. It's just that we cannot call it Greenpine again. It is possibly a generation ahead of the Greenpine though.

Then again, the Israeli Greenpine has undergone many changes over the last few years.

We will soon be getting the Naval MFSTAR system for our ships, a part of the Barak deal.

 

[AJSINGH]

also i met the only indian cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma yesterday in wellington India...i asked which aircraft should win the MMRCA competition he said it should be the " Gripen :
i was surprised ...why
he said that " not many ppl know about gripen but it would not win because Govt of India might not be able to shake off the ghost of the bofors scandal ..at the end its political decision "

 

[ppgj]

also i met the only indian cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma yesterday in wellington India...i asked which aircraft should win the MMRCA competition he said it should be the " Gripen :
i was surprised ...why
he said that " not many ppl know about gripen but it would not win because Govt of India might not be able to shake off the ghost of the bofors scandal ..at the end its political decision "

it is a fine aircraft meets ASR.but it very similar to our own future mark 2 lca.that may hold it back.

 

[shankarosky]

when you make a big ticket purchase some factors can never be overlooked -most important is whether we will get spares and support from the supplier over next so many years the life time of the aircraft
If no the expensive aircraft is just apiece of rusting junk
On this count only mig 35 qualifies simply because Russia have never sanctioned us

US kicked out Indian engineers The day after POK 2
UK stopped supply of sea king spares

gripen has us engine
f-16/18 are out and out us aircraft and carries us weapons
all are prone to sanctions and hence should not be even considered for purchase

 

[Vladimir79]

Sir, the Greenpine itself is called Swordfish here. It's just that we cannot call it Greenpine again. It is possibly a generation ahead of the Greenpine though.

I have read in many places Swordfish is Indian indigenous production based on Green Pine technology with no help from Elta.

 

[Vladimir79]

also i met the only indian cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma yesterday in wellington India...i asked which aircraft should win the MMRCA competition he said it should be the " Gripen :
i was surprised ...why
he said that " not many ppl know about gripen but it would not win because Govt of India might not be able to shake off the ghost of the bofors scandal ..at the end its political decision "

How can the Gripen win when the US won't let Israel upgrade them? The Selex AESA radar is a joke compared to ours.

 

[p2prada]

I have read in many places Swordfish is Indian indigenous production based on Green Pine technology with no help from Elta.

The Greenpine and the Swordfish are very much similar. Both follow the 16 T/R antennas in one module pattern.

You are right is saying the Swordfish is indigenous and made without foreign help. But, it is still a derivative of the Greenpine, albeit more advanced. The T/R modules used are similar to Greenpine's. We developed the Greenpine with Israeli help and then redesigned(with our own software and support systems) it for our own needs and made it more rugged(adequately tropicalised).

 

[marcos]

when you make a big ticket purchase some factors can never be overlooked -most important is whether we will get spares and support from the supplier over next so many years the life time of the aircraft
If no the expensive aircraft is just apiece of rusting junk
On this count only mig 35 qualifies simply because Russia have never sanctioned us

US kicked out Indian engineers The day after POK 2
UK stopped supply of sea king spares

gripen has us engine
f-16/18 are out and out us aircraft and carries us weapons
all are prone to sanctions and hence should not be even considered for purchase

I thing some member have wrongly accused Mig-35 to have more operating cost in longer term. In my opinion operating Mig-35 will save costs in term of traing and building up infrastructures as we are operating many versions of Mig already. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Tamil]

only 2 options go for MiG-35 or Get costly EFT

I never expect a US Fighter in Indian era, no one belive USA...

some extrimits want to make a break in the relation between indians & russians...

 

[Tamil]

dude we have to wait anyway for 7 years for any aircraft to be recieved by IAF ......Mig 29 are undergoing upgrade know as Mig 29smt ...but mig 35 is new airframe desgin and engine and avionics ...that means the old Mig 29 have to be riped off completely to convert it into Mig 5 ....answer this why has not any airforce in the world accquired any " maritime strike fighter " into its fleet ...?
doctrine changes with aircraft ...its aircraft specific ...u cant ask Mig 21 to do bombing missions ..in the same way ...

just note this that first MMRCA aircraft will land after 7 years for IAF....so enough time for the Mig 35 to develop .....also in 1980 MIG 29 was being developed ....india was the first country to get the export version of that aircraft in 1986 ...at that time the Mig 29 was stil in development ...and that aircraft turned out to be fine

I never think of SEVEN YEARS DELAY IN MMRCA DEAL the first flight will touch with in 36 months thats on the MoD mind as well as IAF also


:67:

 

[AJSINGH]

How can the Gripen win when the US won't let Israel upgrade them? The Selex AESA radar is a joke compared to ours.

do ask me ...i support Mig 35 to the core ..that were the views of rakesh sharma ...he was the one in the soviet space aircraft

 

[wild goose]

dude we have to wait anyway for 7 years for any aircraft to be recieved by IAF ......Mig 29 are undergoing upgrade know as Mig 29smt ...but mig 35 is new airframe desgin and engine and avionics ...that means the old Mig 29 have to be riped off completely to convert it into Mig 5 ....answer this why has not any airforce in the world accquired any " maritime strike fighter " into its fleet ...?
doctrine changes with aircraft ...its aircraft specific ...u cant ask Mig 21 to do bombing missions ..in the same way ...

In the RFP send by the IAF to the vendors of MMRCA, it has been clearly stated that the first 18 aircrafts should be inducted to service by 2012.This might be reason why first 18 will be manufactured in the factories of the winner, while the next 108 odd with 50% offset obligations in India.
2009 + 7 = 2016, May be FGFA also will be knocking the doors by then.
Have you thought about the squadron strength of IAF by then.

I thought doctrines are principles or policies of IAF in air combat.More like an overall combat strategy rather than aircraft specific. otherwise a new doctrine is necessary for MiG 35 also.

For the sake of an argument, RSAF. SH is competing in Brazil,Denmark,Greece and Poland. Tell me what characteristic of SH is infirior to its future adversories in the sub continent(excluding it is US made).

Only reason I don't support MiG 35 is the delay in induction.I am not a fan of US either.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The Greenpine and the Swordfish are very much similar. Both follow the 16 T/R antennas in one module pattern.

You are right is saying the Swordfish is indigenous and made without foreign help. But, it is still a derivative of the Greenpine, albeit more advanced. The T/R modules used are similar to Greenpine's. We developed the Greenpine with Israeli help and then redesigned(with our own software and support systems) it for our own needs and made it more rugged(adequately tropicalised).

Swordfish is derived from greenpine. Israelies gave us the basic know-how the things work, how things should work and what is the purpose of each components.
T/R modules for the radar were developed by us, the software coding was done by us and even the Ge-As based micro-processor used in radar was developed by us. I think all this factors are enough to call it our own indeginous radar.

 

[shankarosky]

why Mig 35 - well there are many reasons -first and foremost is no chance of sanctions whci is in evitable wit us/british and maybe grecnh aircraft and also gripen
Next comes the weapon comatiabilty - Mig 35 cana nd will use the entire inventory of air to air and air to ground inventory of IAF and that is abig big plus
IAF engineers are familiar with mig 29 and its power plant and avionics -that make mig 35 quick to integrate and get to operational status -not possibel with any other aircraft.