Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

Ha, a reengineered T-72 and we are supposed to be impressed. With all due respect, this is no great shakes by any means.

No not impressed, but due to financial problems and stupidity of our politicians all programs of new MBT were deleted, hopefully Wolf program will end with success.

Go google for F-INSAS or BMS or TACC3I or TCS or CIDSS. Many of these are in advanced stages of development. Your lot so far has not faced any sanctions, has been happily importing subsystems & been reconfiguring - but you have no idea of the scale of development in India.

Go google for MSBS-5,56, Tytan or our own domestic BMS systems, yeah, we have our own developments in this field, some of them like MSBS-5,56 are much more advanced in their pure concept than other similiar programs over the world.

Where are Polands IRBMs or BMs or cruise missiles? Or for that matter its MEMS based sensor packages? Or its advanced metallurgy programs to make aviation turbines to nuclear reactors?

Why do we need IRBMs?

Let me know when Poland even attempts anything like Program Air Defence - which BTW, is just one of 4 AD programs currently underway, apart from some five sensor development programs apart from the strategic level AESAs being developmed for this program.

We have our own air defense program, or even several different concepts like purchase of Patriot PAC-2 or PAC-3 missiles or domestic system called Shield of Poland.

I think You should educate before You accuse someone.

You can keep believing this, but unfortunately, the tiny fact - Poland had to rely on hand me down Leopard 2A4s at cheap prices. We built our own stuff. Today, Arjun MK1, MK2 whatever have their own line in India and the MK2 is already in trials and stated intent already, is 384 units+. Wheres your Leopard line?

I think You don't understand the basic fact that not everyone need it's own domestic production line, and there is nothing wrong with this.

Where are your nuclear submarines? Where are your own destroyers? Where are your own attack helicopters.

Why we should need nuclear submarines for christs sake?! Or destroyers?! Why we should need our own attack helicopters when we can buy good designs, prooven in combat from our own allies?

Please understand, not all countries need to do everything on their own.

Where are your civil aircraft or 5G aircraft plans?

Do we need ones?!

I didnt mean to be as obnoxious as your peer has been - but all the talk about "Indian inexperience" makes me laugh. You folks don't even seem to understand the scale of Indian industry and the dynamism that exists.

Compare India experience to experience of Russia, or United States... who participated in more wars and have more experience. This is the difference.

Best of luck, way things are going, your MIC will require a market like India to survive. But what we need is not what you'll be able to provide. Obrum is looking towards BEML to make its light tank a success, in terms of an export market. Says it all really.

I think You really don't understand what OBRUM designed, it is not a light tank, or even infantry fighting vehicle, or armored personell carrier, Anders is UCP a Universal Combat Platform, one common hull for LT, IFV, APC, SPH, SPAAG, SPM, ARV, CMV, C2V, MLRS, MedV etc. etc. etc.

Currnetly OBRUM is working further on real prototype, goverment decided to further fund R&D program, besides this even Americans are interested in some design solutions used in Anders and they can use it in their new GCV.

So yeah, it says all, Anders have a potential on export markets.

 

[militarysta]

Archer

Well, I haven't time jet, so only two short issues:

Ha, a reengineered T-72 and we are supposed to be impressed. With all due respect, this is no great shakes by any means.

Oh, as I remember:
T-72M1 Ajeya in India is what? Super IIIgen. MBT?

It's no better tank then PT-91M or PT-91MZ.

Even erly T-90S ( not welded turret) for Indian Army in no better then PT-91MZ for Malaysia ( outside the base armor -it is better in T-90).

It appears that you do not understand - my little country, after 50 years of communism, quietly produces tanks slightly better then Indian T-72M1 Ajeya and ERLY T-90S.
Only the new T-90A is better.

I'm sorry but it looks like. If you want we can go to the specific technical parameters - will be fun, as always, when comparing the T-90S with the PT-91MZ

Rx hardware replaced by better Indian designed systems. The systems been reconfigured by India for multiple uses. But even that's old hat compared to what we are working on. Last I checked, there are some seven AESA systems India has either developed, or is working on. What's your score?

I will try to write it in a polite manner -polish opportunities for self development and production are much greater. Probably it will be another shock for you ...

examples already on the arms of solutions:


http://www.pit.edu.pl/oferta-instytutu/160,trd-1222trd-1235.html
http://www.pit.edu.pl/oferta-instyt...u.pl/oferta-instytutu/166,wlr-100-liwiec.html
http://www.pit.edu.pl/oferta-instytutu/139,radar-mobilny-100.html
CNPEP RADWAR SA
CNPEP RADWAR SA
CNPEP RADWAR SA

About BMs:
WB Electronics / Main page





the rest later.



@Damian
ps. będę za dwa -trzy dni, weź wrzuć coś o tarczy polski, i kilku innych.

 

[SPIEZ]

CHILL people, cool down

@militriaysta: Can you go on further about PT-91 Tanks.

Would like to know in detail about the different tanks used

 

[Damian]

Can you go on further about PT-91 Tanks.

Would like to know in detail about the different tanks used

What do You want to know about PT-91?

About what tanks want You know more?

 

[ace009]

No not impressed, but due to financial problems and stupidity of our politicians all programs of new MBT were deleted, hopefully Wolf program will end with success.



Go google for MSBS-5,56, Tytan or our own domestic BMS systems, yeah, we have our own developments in this field, some of them like MSBS-5,56 are much more advanced in their pure concept than other similiar programs over the world.



Why do we need IRBMs?



We have our own air defense program, or even several different concepts like purchase of Patriot PAC-2 or PAC-3 missiles or domestic system called Shield of Poland.

I think You should educate before You accuse someone.



I think You don't understand the basic fact that not everyone need it's own domestic production line, and there is nothing wrong with this.



Why we should need nuclear submarines for christs sake?! Or destroyers?! Why we should need our own attack helicopters when we can buy good designs, prooven in combat from our own allies?

Please understand, not all countries need to do everything on their own.



Do we need ones?!



Compare India experience to experience of Russia, or United States... who participated in more wars and have more experience. This is the difference.



I think You really don't understand what OBRUM designed, it is not a light tank, or even infantry fighting vehicle, or armored personell carrier, Anders is UCP a Universal Combat Platform, one common hull for LT, IFV, APC, SPH, SPAAG, SPM, ARV, CMV, C2V, MLRS, MedV etc. etc. etc.

Currnetly OBRUM is working further on real prototype, goverment decided to further fund R&D program, besides this even Americans are interested in some design solutions used in Anders and they can use it in their new GCV.

So yeah, it says all, Anders have a potential on export markets.

@ Damian - for someone who claims to study history and be a military professional - you sit between Western Europe, who still do not think very highly of the Eastern European nations and Russia, who is trying to be more and more assertive in what it considers it's "backyard" - and you say you do NOT need a 5th gen aircraft? I am surprised.

As for PAC-2 or PAC-3, try to understand that the Patriot missile system had a terrible record for missile interception during Gulf War -1. Although the US military/ manufacturer and Bush Sr. claimed it to be "90%" effective, later on investigations by the US Congress found it out to be a blatant lie or a propaganda at best. The effectiveness was below 10% and was thought to be as low as ZERO. The patriots could not bring down a SINGLE Scud - and this is the 1950-1960s technology Scud we are talking about. REALLY old generation SRBMs. Even the upgraded Patriot-2 on testing against test missiles, were at best 10% efficient. Patriot-3 was presumed to be about twice as good as PAC-2 (20%).

Having said that, I appreciate Poland and it's efforts in Tech development. I have several Polish friends and I have found them to be very open minded, hard working and smart. They are also very well educated. I would love to see more co-operation between India and Poland, especially since there is no chance of a conflict between us.

@ Archer,

As you may have noticed, most of us do not know much about R&D going on in India - some of us do not live there, some of us work in other areas and some of us do not know how to find out (or a combination of the three). Most of us read up on the internet and form our own opinions. Sometimes it is bad in the way that, since we are ill-informed a strong opinion from little information can be a bad thing. P2Prada may suffer from this, maybe others too.
However, having said that, I think it is the responsibility of people like you, who are seniors and have far better access to actual technology chekups on the ground to come to these forums and post what is REALLY happening. You can educate us far better than we can do each other.

Thanks a lot ...

 

[Damian]

Damian - for someone who claims to study history and be a military professional - you sit between Western Europe, who still do not think very highly of the Eastern European nations and Russia, who is trying to be more and more assertive in what it considers it's "backyard" - and you say you do NOT need a 5th gen aircraft? I am surprised.

Yes we don't need 5th generation fighter, we are not even really eastern europeans, our region is called mid europe, and Poles being a slavic tribe are not really eastern europeans, we are western europeans or mid eauropeans as our alphabet, culture etc. shows, so Poland is something between west and east, it is not nececary good position but well, what You can do.

But this is not a reason to spend incredible money on nuclear subs or 5th generation fighters that are not only expensive in R&D phase but also in normal exploatation, plenty of good 4th generation multirole fighters will do the trick, same with navy, we need more corvets and frigates than one or two destroyers.

Land forces also need more vehicles, of course one problem are MBT's and these are for completely different dicussion, but UCP Anders for example, as a base for new IFV and other vehicles, is huge opportunity, we actually don't need it's Light Tank variant, it can be adopted later as a replacement for T-72M1's, more funds are needed for Leopard 2A4 and PT-91 modernisation and later for their replacement in form of purchased vehicle from other country, maybe its licenced production or domestic design.

So we have capabilities, potential etc. The main problem is that we can't do anything on one shot, it is because of several problems, also because currently there is no real threat to us, unlike India that can have war with Pakistan and PRC.

As for PAC-2 or PAC-3, try to understand that the Patriot missile system had a terrible record for missile interception during Gulf War -1. Although the US military/ manufacturer and Bush Sr. claimed it to be "90%" effective, later on investigations by the US Congress found it out to be a blatant lie or a propaganda at best. The effectiveness was below 10% and was thought to be as low as ZERO. The patriots could not bring down a SINGLE Scud - and this is the 1950-1960s technology Scud we are talking about. REALLY old generation SRBMs. Even the upgraded Patriot-2 on testing against test missiles, were at best 10% efficient. Patriot-3 was presumed to be about twice as good as PAC-2 (20%).

You actually misunderstanded the issue with Patriot missiles.

First it was not problem with missiles or system as a whole but with a bug in software, it was solved and now everything is ok.

Second Patriot Missiles indeed shot down many SCUD missiles, here is another misunderstanding, the problem was that for one SCUD there was a need to fire several Patriot missiles, in some people view to many.

So Patriot system is not a bad system but it was designed as purely AA system not anti missile system, so it need upgrades and such upgrades were impelented and after MEADS cancellation, more upgrades developed from MEADS system will be integrated in to Patriot system.

In reality some problems with weapon systems are exagarated by people from or connected to other companys to do black PR, great example of this is continous silent war between Nizhny Tagil UVZ corporation and Kharkiv Morozov design bureau and Malyshev factory.

 

[Austin]

As for PAC-2 or PAC-3, try to understand that the Patriot missile system had a terrible record for missile interception during Gulf War -1. Although the US military/ manufacturer and Bush Sr. claimed it to be "90%" effective, later on investigations by the US Congress found it out to be a blatant lie or a propaganda at best. The effectiveness was below 10% and was thought to be as low as ZERO. The patriots could not bring down a SINGLE Scud - and this is the 1950-1960s technology Scud we are talking about. REALLY old generation SRBMs. Even the upgraded Patriot-2 on testing against test missiles, were at best 10% efficient. Patriot-3 was presumed to be about twice as good as PAC-2 (20%).

Actually the original Patriot used in Gulf War in 91 never really had anti-Ballistic Missile capability of any kind nor was it suppose to do what it did , its only the US PR machine that kept trumpeting its gulf war performance which as you rightly said were proven to be highly exaggerated.

Infact most of the time Patriot did not do much because the Iraq missile was highly inaccurate that it never hit its intended target or it simply broke in mid air due to poor workman ship , so Patriot had really nothing much to offer in anti-BM role ( as anti-aircraft is was quite good and that was what it was designed for ) nor was Iraqi Al-Abbas or AL-Hussian missile (improved scud ) accurate enough to do any thing significant except to scare city people and create physiological impact.

Now the real Patriot missile with built in anti-BM capability was PAC-3 which was designed to hit missile corresponding to a range of 1000 km , it performed very well in the final Gulf War where many short range BM from Iraq was intercepted . well it even intercepted friendly aircraft due to IFF issue and worked well in full auto mode , so PAC-3 capability atleast against less capable BM ( < 200 km ) then it was designed to intercept was proven without doubt ,

Till date Patriot has the reputation of being the only combat proven anti-BM , so ABM no matter how advanced available now cant claim this and its a tribute to Partiot PAC-3 excellent capability. The only issue with PAC-3 is its short range and low altitude intercept capability ~15 km which means it can defend a small area , they are developing enhancement to PAC-3 to overcome some of these issue.

 

[ace009]

Yes we don't need 5th generation fighter, we are not even really eastern europeans, our region is called mid europe, and Poles being a slavic tribe are not really eastern europeans, we are western europeans or mid eauropeans as our alphabet, culture etc. shows, so Poland is something between west and east, it is not nececary good position but well, what You can do.

But this is not a reason to spend incredible money on nuclear subs or 5th generation fighters that are not only expensive in R&D phase but also in normal exploatation, plenty of good 4th generation multirole fighters will do the trick, same with navy, we need more corvets and frigates than one or two destroyers.

Land forces also need more vehicles, of course one problem are MBT's and these are for completely different dicussion, but UCP Anders for example, as a base for new IFV and other vehicles, is huge opportunity, we actually don't need it's Light Tank variant, it can be adopted later as a replacement for T-72M1's, more funds are needed for Leopard 2A4 and PT-91 modernisation and later for their replacement in form of purchased vehicle from other country, maybe its licenced production or domestic design.

So we have capabilities, potential etc. The main problem is that we can't do anything on one shot, it is because of several problems, also because currently there is no real threat to us, unlike India that can have war with Pakistan and PRC.



You actually misunderstanded the issue with Patriot missiles.

First it was not problem with missiles or system as a whole but with a bug in software, it was solved and now everything is ok.

Second Patriot Missiles indeed shot down many SCUD missiles, here is another misunderstanding, the problem was that for one SCUD there was a need to fire several Patriot missiles, in some people view to many.

So Patriot system is not a bad system but it was designed as purely AA system not anti missile system, so it need upgrades and such upgrades were impelented and after MEADS cancellation, more upgrades developed from MEADS system will be integrated in to Patriot system.

In reality some problems with weapon systems are exagarated by people from or connected to other companys to do black PR, great example of this is continous silent war between Nizhny Tagil UVZ corporation and Kharkiv Morozov design bureau and Malyshev factory.

Call yourself WHATEVER you want - middle Europe, Central Europe, Western slavic nation - point has NOTHING to do with your heritage or your ethnicity, but everything to do with your geographical location. Time and time again in the last 1000 years, Poland has been claimed, reclaimed, fought over, fought with and fought against by the Germans from the west, the Austro-Hungarian-Czech etc from the south and the Russian from the East. Reason? Strategic location between three power blocks.
In recent times, especially since WW-1 the south is not much of a threat to you guys for sure - the West was, and the East is. Anytime Poland leans towards one camp, the other side will be unhappy about it.
As one of my Polish friends told me - "The tussle in Poland is between what should be our second language - Russian or German" ... He may have been joking, but I don't think it is ALL a joke. Which is why, of all the "central" european nations, Poland still has one of the largest military.

As for Patriot missile system, the problems were in the Radar aquisition, the software capabilities, the missile hit probabilities. The study done by the team from MIT as late as 1995 (gen 2 of patriot) still clearly stated that the effectiveness was ~10% only. And one of the RAND studies showed that the Patriot 3 was only about twice as effective as Pat2.

Anyway you dice and slice it, Poland does have need for a strong independant military and too much dependance on either the west or the east might be bad for your health.

 

[Austin]

BTW isnt Poland a NATO member why do they need nuclear submarine or Fifth gen fighter or any of those fancy toys , they can just cry and NATO will come for help or before dealing with Poland any adversary will have to deal with NATO might.

Poland is better of doing what it knows to do best and be competitive in world defence market thats the only way it will do well.

 

[Austin]

Coming back to the topic , came across this T-90 lic built at OFB , looking at the quality of the build of T-90 HVF seems to have done a good job of building the Bhishma.

Livefist: Photos: First Batch of Indian Licensed T-90 Tanks Roll Out

 

[Damian]

As for Patriot missile system, the problems were in the Radar aquisition, the software capabilities, the missile hit probabilities. The study done by the team from MIT as late as 1995 (gen 2 of patriot) still clearly stated that the effectiveness was ~10% only. And one of the RAND studies showed that the Patriot 3 was only about twice as effective as Pat2.

As far as I know from guys that are interested in this subject is the main problem was software, not system as a whole, besides this there were many upgrades made for Patriot system and Americans are not very keen to say what they improved and how in reality system will work, for example backing to armor, I'am very interested in US Armored Vehicles, but for example I don't know all the details for M1 Abrams development history, still this tank is more a mystery to us than Soviet vehicles, I know for example there were some interesting solutions tested in 1990's for SEP upgrade, but when I ask people involved in this program they just shut up and don't want tell anything, even if program ended in such configuration as we currently seen it, so some proposed solutions should not be classified, but Yanks are really sticky to OPSEC and their secrets.

Hey there are even some issues with serial numbers on these tanks turrets, especially export models etc.

I will reply more later.

 

[SPIEZ]

What do You want to know about PT-91?

About what tanks want You know more?

I would like to know what makes this tank special ????
Can you elaborate please.
we can see you are patriotic this not the place to prove it.
So pls stay along with the thread

 

[bhramos]

Coming back to the topic , came across this T-90 lic built at OFB , looking at the quality of the build of T-90 HVF seems to have done a good job of building the Bhishma.

Livefist: Photos: First Batch of Indian Licensed T-90 Tanks Roll Out

as per the inside sources, the only difference between the Russian Built and Lic built is one thing,
Russian Built tanks need to service or overhaul once in 10years,
but lic built tanks need service or overhaul once in every five years.....

 

[ace009]

BTW isnt Poland a NATO member why do they need nuclear submarine or Fifth gen fighter or any of those fancy toys , they can just cry and NATO will come for help or before dealing with Poland any adversary will have to deal with NATO might.

Poland is better of doing what it knows to do best and be competitive in world defence market thats the only way it will do well.

That's considering that NATO will remain relevant in another 20-30 years. The way things are going, USA will bail on European security in a decade or so, after which either EU members have to take their own security in their own hands as EU or as individual nations.

 

[Damian]

I would like to know what makes this tank special ????
Can you elaborate please.

Special? Nothing make it's special, however PT-91M use better FCS and PowerPack compared to basic T-90 or T-90S, T-90S use better basic armor and ERA, that's all.

That's considering that NATO will remain relevant in another 20-30 years. The way things are going, USA will bail on European security in a decade or so, after which either EU members have to take their own security in their own hands as EU or as individual nations.

Ha but here is a trick, currently NATO strenght is in 80 to 90% composed by US Armed Forces, of course that some politicians that are after EU want bail out of US from NATO because they don't like US supremacy, but in the same time, the same political circles are responsible of, literally destroying armed forces of many countries, just look what is happening in UK or Netherlands, pure madness.

So or US will still be with us to protect us, or every european country will need to take care of it's own, because nor EU will transform in to federal state (many people don't want this), nor will EU sponsor armed forces of each country.

 

[SPIEZ]

Special? Nothing make it's special, however PT-91M use better FCS and PowerPack compared to basic T-90 or T-90S, T-90S use better basic armor and ERA, that's all.

Dude most of the FCS require western components and i saw 1 of the links u had given regardins electronics, it had an IBM laptop, not really indegenous

 

[asianobserve]

Special? Nothing make it's special, however PT-91M use better FCS and PowerPack compared to basic T-90 or T-90S, T-90S use better basic armor and ERA, that's all.



Ha but here is a trick, currently NATO strenght is in 80 to 90% composed by US Armed Forces, of course that some politicians that are after EU want bail out of US from NATO because they don't like US supremacy, but in the same time, the same political circles are responsible of, literally destroying armed forces of many countries, just look what is happening in UK or Netherlands, pure madness.

So or US will still be with us to protect us, or every european country will need to take care of it's own, because nor EU will transform in to federal state (many people don't want this), nor will EU sponsor armed forces of each country.

History will show that Poland cannot rely on the promises of its Western European allies. When push comes to shove this hollier and better than thou European countries will only protect their lawns. It's in Polish interest to stick it up with the US for the long term and all indications are just that. Both the US and Poland recognize their strategic mutual interest.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is still a joke. Try hard it may to retain parity with the US and NATO it can no longer do it. Meanwhile Soviet romantics will keep on praising Russia as if it is still the USSR.

 

[Austin]

Special? Nothing make it's special, however PT-91M use better FCS and PowerPack compared to basic T-90 or T-90S, T-90S use better basic armor and ERA, that's all.

How is PT-91M FC better than T-90S ?

 

[Damian]

Dude most of the FCS require western components

And?? What is problem with western components? We buy them, we adapt them for our needs, we produce them on licence and learn how to do things from these that made these things at least from decades and know better than us how to do them.

and i saw 1 of the links u had given regardins electronics, it had an IBM laptop, not really indegenous

I really don't understand this fetish and mania to do everything indegenous...

History will show that Poland cannot rely on the promises of its Western European allies. When push comes to shove this hollier and better than thou European countries will only protect their lawns. It's in Polish interest to stick it up with the US for the long term and all indications are just that. Both the US and Poland recognize their strategic mutual interest.

I agree that actually US is better partner, (maybe also because I have sentiment to US), however to talk with US on the same terms You need to know how to talk with them, unfortunetly european politicians, also our politicians, don't know how to do that, how make good and effective PR in US goverment, senate etc.

As far as Russia is concerned, it is still a joke. Try hard it may to retain parity with the US and NATO it can no longer do it. Meanwhile Soviet romantics will keep on praising Russia as if it is still the USSR.

Well actually it is in whole world interest to see Russia as a strong country and counter balance for NATO and US, I still think that cold war times were better times, every one know who is the other side, what are goals of the other side, everything were more predictible and there were clear game rules, currently it seems that there will be more and more chaos, and chaos is not good thing.

How is PT-91M FC better than T-90S ?

For example full Hunter Killer capability, but as Militarysta said, PT-90M have better FCS than the oldest and most basic T-90 and T-90S, not the newer T-90S based on T-90A.

 

[p2prada]

One of the reasons I rarely find myself coming to this forum or the internet in general, is due to the amount of comedy on it, guys like you mentioned. Likely to not even have cleared "kaalij", yet to hold a job, yet to even achieve anything in life, understand anything beyond what other wannabe's spout off on the net and then make big statements about "people, understand this..."...he he he...the stupidity is beyond belief.

I spent the better part of one recent evening speaking to one of our foremost metallurgists & realizing how much effort has gone into Indian defence already & where we stand...and its not by any means bad & where we are proceeding would make many sit up.

Carry on regardless. Much appreciation for the likes of Kunal etc and the moderators who have the patience to keep up with this sort of stuff. I wouldn't. Too old to keep up with this sort of bakwaas.

You are embarrassing as ususal. All smoke no fire. Can you actually contribute positively to the thread for a change?

No matter how much effort has gone into the Indian defence sector the real fact is we are reinventing the wheel even today. Except for Brahmos and possibly Shourya there is no actual product that we have or will have that is completely unique. Even Brahmos has it's lesser cousins in China while Shourya concept already existed. We have a decade to go just to catch up to Russia let alone the Americans.

Heck just look at our circuit boards. DRDO is currently working on 150nm boards and are only now progressing to 40nm boards. Even in IITs the education system does not allow for anything less than a 180nm design. At the same time the Americans progressed from 32nm to 16nm boards while the Japanese are already working on 10nm boards. You could say the difference between the west and India is effectively 10 to 20 years behind in almost every field.

The Arjun is a basic shell for a more progressive tank which may come in the future. So, is the LCA, Arihant, LCH, ALH etc etc. I doubt you even have an engineering degree to understand that.

On what basis do you actually think we have even qualified to reach world standards? We don't have a single thing that we can say is the best. Literally nothing.

I have spoken to scientists myself, whatever progress has been made it is great for India. But it is nowhere compared to what others have made. Kalam keeps talking about the 6th country thing. We are currently only at that position. We have a long long way to go in order to achieve what we want. Heck all our top scientists crib about lack of basic science research in the country and you actually expect us to move mountains with air.

You are too old and that's true. Fortunately my thinking isn't even close to yours. Your own statement indicates doubt.
"how much effort has gone into Indian defence already & where we stand...and its not by any means bad & where we are proceeding would make many sit up. "

You are content with what we have achieved already, I am not. I have friends in the defence industry and even they aren't entirely happy with how things have progressed. In other words, it's been too slow. You say our position isn't "bad." Your definition of good and bad is twisted. I never said what we are doing is bad, what I have been stating is what we are doing is still not good enough. The Army will buy more T-90s and less Arjuns. This is a real fact and has already happened. The Arjun isn't bad, it's just that the T-90 is better and the Army obviously went for something better.

No matter where we stand, the best equipment we still have in our arsenal is still foreign maal. This won't change any time soon, no matter how much you try to protect DRDO. What we are doing is barely even enough for us to catch up even with foreign help.

We have a long way to go and people like you don't help. Nationalistic view on indigenous products and trying to potray a picture of everything being great from DRDO's side when it is not.

Now that my rant is over, let's see if you have anything positive to contribute. Only two questions for an expert like you. What shells were used on the Arjun in armour tests? What is the actual thickness of the armour? Heck if you haven't actually asked these questions to a tank developer then you don't know the "right" questions to ask let alone try to analyze what they say.

An example of right questions to ask would be this - I know one of the directors of ISRO and he is also one of the heads of the Chandrayaan moon mission along with full access to the Byalalu Centre. We were talking about the Chandrayaan mission and he mentioned how we have achieved a highly capable "indigenous" satellite industry. I asked him a very simple question - "Where does the satellite and LV wirings come from?" His answer - "France." He said the wrings are very complex and ISRO wants to outsource wiring to an Indian company. But there is not a single company out there which is capable of designing and constructing wires and are forced to import this crucial piece of hardware. That's facts for you.

The last time I spoke to one of our aircraft designers, he said they are hoping LCA does not run out to be an aerodynamic disaster. This was just before the 2009 airshow. He actually used the word "disaster."

I am hoping for some worthwhile post from you. Something that is not an actual waste of bandwidth like almost all your other posts have been. But then I think we cannot expect anything more than a bigger rant than your previous rant talking about everything under the sun except what we want here.