Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Austin]

Yeah, most probably they just got KEW-A2 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.

Some estimations:

US M829A3 120mm DU 765mm at 2km (2003) (Russian estimate 795mm)
US M829A2 120mm DU 730mm at 2km (1994)
US M829A1 120mm DU 610mm at 2km (1991) (Russian estimate 700mm)
US M829 120mm DU 552mm at 2km (1987)
US M827 120mm tungsten 450mm at 2km (never fielded by US)
US/Olin GD120 120mm tungsten 520mm at 2km
US/Egyptian KEW-A2 120mm tungsten 660mm at 2km

Well I suppose they tested what was best available with them what best US exported.

I wonder what difference will it make to the Indian besides the WoW factor , the most likely APFSDS we will face are that of Ukraine and Chinese make.

So it is not as potent as later M829 variants.

Even for the same length and dimension DU rounds will be more potent.

We will see, IMHO many countries would be happy with second hand T-80's and even T-64's or older T-72's, it would be wise to upgrade them to some level and sold to customers that are unabale to buy more expensive T-90 variants.

They would use it till the life ends , unless they do complete over haul it would need to be replaced . so they will discard it

You mean external ERA right? Because it would be difficult to install internal ERA...

Yes ofcourse never heard of internal ERA yet

Hmm...

Russian 125mm BM-42M "Lekalo"? tungsten 600-650mm at 2km (200?)
Russian 125mm BM-46 "Svinets" DU 650mm at 2km (1991) (22:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-42 "Mango" tungsten alloy 520mm at 2km (1986) (16:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-32 "Vant" DU 560mm at 2km (1985) (13:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-29 DU 470mm at 2km (1982) (12:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-26 "Hope" (1983) tungsten alloy 450mm at 2km (extended BM-22 13:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-22 "HairPin" (1976) tungsten 430mm at 2km (most common round in late 1970s/early 1980s)
Russian 125mm BM-17 (1972) steel 310mm at 2km (simplified export BM-15)
Russian 125mm BM-15/Yugo M88 tungsten carbide slug (1972) 340mm at 2km (version of BM-12 with extended projectile)
Russian 125mm BM-12 tungsten carbide slug (1968) 315mm at 2km
Russian 125mm BM-9 steel (1962) 290mm at 2km

So they had at least 3 APFSDS rounds with DU alloy penetrator

.

Looks all like cold war era , they would have designed some rounds after that.

 

[Damian]

Well I suppose they tested what was best available with them what best US exported.

Yup.

I wonder what difference will it make to the Indian besides the WoW factor , the most likely APFSDS we will face are that of Ukraine and Chinese make.

Do India have possibilities to test Ukrainian and Chinese APFSDS ammo?

Ukraine 125mm Vitiaz round 760mm at 2km (2002)
Chinese/Pak (old) 125mm tungsten 460-480mm at 2km (1993)
Israeli/Chinese Type-IIM (new) 125mm 600mm at 2km
Chinese Type-II 125mm 550mm at 2km
Pakistani Niaza 125mm DU 550mm at 2km

Chinese Type-86 105mm DU 460mm(from "short" 105)/480mm(from "long" 105) at 2km
Chinese Type-93 105mm DU 510mm("short")/540mm("long") at 2km
Chinese Type-95 105mm DU 580mm at 2km (from "long" Type-83A 105mm)
Pakistani 105mm DU APFSDS 450mm at 2km

Even for the same length and dimension DU rounds will be more potent.

DU alloy have two advantages over Tungsten alloy.

It have natural adiabatic sheer, while there are needed big R&D efforts to do the same with Tungsten alloy, also pirophoric effects are more deadly with after perforation effects, so there are higher probabilities that ammo will start cook-off, fuel will start burn, hydraulic liquids also, crew will suffer more burns etc.

They would use it till the life ends , unless they do complete over haul it would need to be replaced . so they will discard it

To be honest it is sad, I really like T-64 and T-80 series, and would be nice to see them in service for long time.

Looks all like cold war era , they would have designed some rounds after that.

AFAIK they are only using tungsten alloys for regular service and DU alloys are reserved for storage to be used in "hard times".

 

[Anshu Attri]

T-90MS "TAGIL": FCS


Gur Khan attacks!: T-90MS "TAGIL": FCS

Continuing the theme of parsing the structure of modern Russian tank T-90MS, we'll see how they had affairs with fire control system. After all, as MSA "Kalina" - is the main feature in all of this wonderful machine.
The basis of the complex on-board equipment is modern, world-class SLAs "Kalina" in the multispectral gunner's sight, commander's panoramic sight with a digital ballistic computer and sensor package shooting conditions. In the FCS integrated battle management information system tactical level. Multispectral MSA is designed to provide high efficiency of the combat vehicle in the conflicts at various levels, during the day (day and night). Multispectral integrated sights occupy a smaller volume zabronevoy and MSA as a whole has a much smaller government, which simplifies the training of crews and maintenance of the tank. When mixed tank units manning tanks and armored vehicles such as fire support BMPT high degree of commonality MSA is a must in this case is provided. Such unification is guaranteed due to widespread use of developments in the field, committed in the performance of OCD "Slingshot-1" and especially "Frame-99". Integration into ASUtb performed as part of the ROC "slider." The general principle of the MSA "Kalina" is a complex interaction of sighting system, a complex weapon systems, electric drives, stabilized pointing weapons control systems actuators arms control panels and control panels with the appropriate computer system equipment MSA, which provides reception of information signals, the formation of control commands and other necessary information in accordance with the algorithms of the LMS in different modes. In this pair of elements provided by the exchange of information on the multiplex channel (GOST R 52070-2003 - the Russian equivalent of the U.S. military standard MIL-STD-1553). The composition of OMS is integrated so that the hardware system staging and aerosol smoke screens, the apparatus provides identification "friend or foe," and the work of the automated control system tank battalion (ASUtb).

 

[Austin]

Do India have possibilities to test Ukrainian and Chinese APFSDS ammo?

Perhaps it would be easier to procure Ukrainian and Chinese APFSDS than NATO rounds , our main competitor uses rounds from these two countries , what is of good to us if US rounds cannot penetrate T-90 armour only to be found that say Ukraine 125mm Vitiaz round does. Interesting to see pakistan use Niaza 125 mm DU rounds.

I was told by some one reliable that we do not have the bm-42M round yet for T-90 but use the BM-42 rounds.

Personally I think its high time we seriously look at T-90MS and since there is a possibility to upgrade existing T-90 to MS standards although its strictly not need but we still have some 1000 odd T-90 which has to be lic produced we might well move that to MS standard plus upgrade older T-90 autoloader to fire the newer 740 mm round.

At a price of $ 4.5 to $5 million cost of T-90MS we can still get a good bargain for 1000 odd numbers and it would still be cheaper by $ 3.2 million viz a viz Arjun Mk2

DU alloy have two advantages over Tungsten alloy.

It have natural adiabatic sheer, while there are needed big R&D efforts to do the same with Tungsten alloy, also pirophoric effects are more deadly with after perforation effects, so there are higher probabilities that ammo will start cook-off, fuel will start burn, hydraulic liquids also, crew will suffer more burns etc.

Yes i have read about the fire effect of DU rounds and how post penetration DU round has a very high chance of creating fire and subsequent explosion if its near to ammo or crew burns.

My main concern for DU round is its long term health effect there have been many studies to prove DU rounds are known to cause high rate of cancer and genetic disorder among the offspring , we need more studies for DU rounds on the health effects on humans.

DU can be used in hard times but for normal situation or training or low intensity conflict a Tungsten round is safer bet.

To be honest it is sad, I really like T-64 and T-80 series, and would be nice to see them in service for long time.

Well you cant flog a old horse for too long , I believe the industry and military have been sold on to Armata UCP as long term standardisation and upgradation of tank fleet , they are happy to buy it in big numbers too.
Russian army to start receiving new-generation tanks in 2014 | Defense | RIA Novosti

AFAIK they are only using tungsten alloys for regular service and DU alloys are reserved for storage to be used in "hard times".

That would make sense , since i suppose one Tungsten rounds are cheaper and DU rounds have health concern.

 

[Damian]

Perhaps it would be easier to procure Ukrainian and Chinese APFSDS than NATO rounds , our main competitor uses rounds from these two countries , what is of good to us if US rounds cannot penetrate T-90 armour only to be found that say Ukraine 125mm Vitiaz round does. Interesting to see pakistan use Niaza 125 mm DU rounds.

I was told by some one reliable that we do not have the bm-42M round yet for T-90 but use the BM-42 rounds.

Personally I think its high time we seriously look at T-90MS and since there is a possibility to upgrade existing T-90 to MS standards although its strictly not need but we still have some 1000 odd T-90 which has to be lic produced we might well move that to MS standard plus upgrade older T-90 autoloader to fire the newer 740 mm round.

At a price of $ 4.5 to $5 million cost of T-90MS we can still get a good bargain for 1000 odd numbers and it would still be cheaper by $ 3.2 million viz a viz Arjun Mk2

Yeah, thats make sense.

Yes i have read about the fire effect of DU rounds and how post penetration DU round has a very high chance of creating fire and subsequent explosion if its near to ammo or crew burns.

My main concern for DU round is its long term health effect there have been many studies to prove DU rounds are known to cause high rate of cancer and genetic disorder among the offspring , we need more studies for DU rounds on the health effects on humans.

DU can be used in hard times but for normal situation or training or low intensity conflict a Tungsten round is safer bet.

Most studies on DU are made by eco morons that don't understand that DU is called DU because it is not radioactive, of course there is some level of radiation but is very small, even smaller than radiation level of our envirvorement. The whole paranoia here is because there is Uranium in name of this metal, and when uneducated morons here Uranium there allready think that there is close connection to nuclear weapons etc.

DU is just heavy metal, and as all heavy metal it is highly toxic, DU is just like lead or... or even tungsten, tungsten is also heavy metal so it is toxic at some level.

In fact until You literally eat DU or breath it You are perfectly safe.

Also DU is much much more cheaper than tungsten for countries with nuclear industry.

Tunsgten alloy and DU alloy can also be used as armor elements, to be honest I suspect that both US and UK are using both these materials in their armors, probably due to tunsgten costs, there is more DU alloy in armor than tungsten but there is no reason to not use both metals to increase protection.

Well you cant flog a old horse for too long , I believe the industry and military have been sold on to Armata UCP as long term standardisation and upgradation of tank fleet , they are happy to buy it in big numbers too.
Russian army to start receiving new-generation tanks in 2014 | Defense | RIA Novosti

True, well we will see if Armata will be fielded... I hope that if yes, then it will be some kick in the ass of NATO rmies that will also spend more money on R&D and fielding of similiar vehicles.

That would make sense , since i suppose one Tungsten rounds are cheaper and DU rounds have health concern.

It is mainly because there is very small numbers of DU ammunitions in Russian magazines compared to Tungsten ammunitions, even if Tungsten is more expensive than DU.

 

[p2prada]

@Austin

From what I have heard there were problems during serial production of 3BM42M rounds. Nothing to do with the round per se. But it has more to do with some bureaucratic hurdle and red tape in the Russian arms industry.

However I am not aware of any other 740mm APFSDS round other than the 42M. Is there anything about the new rounds I heard are being tested in Russia.

 

[militarysta]

Yeah, most probably they just got KEW-A2 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.

Some estimations:

US M829A3 120mm DU 765mm at 2km (2003) (Russian estimate 795mm)
US M829A2 120mm DU 730mm at 2km (1994)
US M829A1 120mm DU 610mm at 2km (1991) (Russian estimate 700mm)
US M829 120mm DU 552mm at 2km (1987)
US M827 120mm tungsten 450mm at 2km (never fielded by US)
US/Olin GD120 120mm tungsten 520mm at 2km
US/Egyptian KEW-A2 120mm tungsten 660mm at 2km

So it is not as potent as later M829 variants.

Russian 125mm BM-42M "Lekalo"? tungsten 600-650mm at 2km (200?)
Russian 125mm BM-46 "Svinets" DU 650mm at 2km (1991) (22:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-42 "Mango" tungsten alloy 520mm at 2km (1986) (16:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-32 "Vant" DU 560mm at 2km (1985) (13:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-29 DU 470mm at 2km (1982) (12:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-26 "Hope" (1983) tungsten alloy 450mm at 2km (extended BM-22 13:1 L/D)
Russian 125mm BM-22 "HairPin" (1976) tungsten 430mm at 2km (most common round in late 1970s/early 1980s)
Russian 125mm BM-17 (1972) steel 310mm at 2km (simplified export BM-15)
Russian 125mm BM-15/Yugo M88 tungsten carbide slug (1972) 340mm at 2km (version of BM-12 with extended projectile)
Russian 125mm BM-12 tungsten carbide slug (1968) 315mm at 2km
Russian 125mm BM-9 steel (1962) 290mm at 2km

So they had at least 3 APFSDS rounds with DU alloy penetrator.

Damian, please don't use collins...


estimates according to the instructions for the Polish tank crews:

3BM42 -P0:580 P2500:460
DM33 -P0:600 P2500:490
M829A1 -P0:700 P2500:560
3BM42M -P0:630 P2500:510
DM53(L44) -P0:670 P2500:560
M829A2 -P0:770 P2500:660
M829A3 -P0:920 P2500:810
PRONIT -P0:560 P2500:460

P0 - distance 0m
P2500 - distance 2500m

 

[Austin]

@Austin

From what I have heard there were problems during serial production of 3BM42M rounds. Nothing to do with the round per se. But it has more to do with some bureaucratic hurdle and red tape in the Russian arms industry.

However I am not aware of any other 740mm APFSDS round other than the 42M. Is there anything about the new rounds I heard are being tested in Russia.

Yes there are new rounds available but not yet approved for exports , this is what Gur Khan told me on the new rounds for T-90MS when I asked him on this subject

Т-90MS Can use an ammunition 3ВБМ22 with APFSDS 3БМ59 «Svinec-1» (Svinec- Lead ) and 3ВБМ23 with APFSDS 3БМ60 «Svinec-2» and a throwing charge 4Ж96 "Ozone-T".Length of the core approximately 740мм.

 

[Austin]

Three part Interview with Viktor Ivanovich Mokruhin (leading expert on armour) answers some questions on T-90MS, Armada and developments in general (has English Translation)

REA 2011: T-90MS MBT! Part 1/3 - YouTube
REA 2011: T-90MS MBT! Part 2/3 - YouTube
REA 2011: T-90MS MBT! Part 3/3 - YouTube

 

[Damian]

Thanks Austin, really interesting, especially his words on front protection of T-90MS comparabale to western MBT's... this is actually very same to what I and Militarysta are saying.

The Armata concept and other UCP's are also very interesting... pitty that these goverment assholes in countries belonging to NATO are not want to fund such programs or were not wanting to be more precise, now when Armata will be fielded they probably again will start new similiar programs.

 

[Austin]

Thanks Austin, really interesting, especially his words on front protection of T-90MS comparabale to western MBT's... this is actually very same to what I and Militarysta are saying

Well that is what that Designer said that the protection range is sufficient against what they (west) have got.

The Armata concept and other UCP's are also very interesting... pitty that these goverment assholes in countries belonging to NATO are not want to fund such programs or were not wanting to be more precise, now when Armata will be fielded they probably again will start new similiar programs

I could see two reason , the West including the US is in economic crises , military modernisation will be funded but selectively so not all program will get priority and tanks are certainly not , beyond upgrade.

Russia is playing the catch up game with west as far as conventional force modernisation goes and in past 2 decades piece meal modernisation of conventional forces has taken place , so West is pretty comfortable out there. Ofcourse some program like UCP could be better funded compared to West where it may not be a priority.

 

[Damian]

I could see two reason , the West including the US is in economic crises , military modernisation will be funded but selectively so not all program will get priority and tanks are certainly not , beyond upgrade.

Russia is playing the catch up game with west as far as conventional force modernisation goes and in past 2 decades piece meal modernisation of conventional forces has taken place , so West is pretty comfortable out there. Ofcourse some program like UCP could be better funded compared to West where it may not be a priority.

Problem with our economy is not because our economy cant do some things, but because our politicians are morons, we have high taxes that are not needed, too much bureaucracy, waste of money etc. So the only thing we really need is to change our politicans from socialists to true right wing liberals.

As for stricte military problem, the fact is we could have UCP's in different classes in early XXI allready if for example ASM program in US would not be replaced by FCS.

We just let complete morons to decide about economy, armed forces modernisation etc.

These are reasons of our problems, hopefully it will change as soon as possible.

 

[militarysta]

Damian, remember please that - IVth gen. MBT was deeloped. But this gen. not get in to service.
We have wery big, but secret Tank Block III, and some "rubbish" like Thumper So propably in USA we have full "critical mass of new technologies" to develop new tank very quickly.
In Germany we have cosed in general part in 2001 NGP. And only EGS was "public", there was full turret prototype with140mm NPzK auto. Its sill secret. The same story like in Leo2 with 140mm NPzK.. Why? in my opinion because the technology is still on time (fresh). Now in Germany there is project to develop new tank based on SPz Puma technology with new nano-armour, with APS, and unmanned turet with propably 120mm. As I know prototype is developed.
So if will be the political will in this two country (USA, Germany) new tank could be developed in less then 5 years.

Russia is diffrent story. Durin cold war in SU there was two new gen.:
a) "hight" level (Ob.477 and Ob.195) and:
b) "low" level (Ob.187, Ob.644, Ob.490B),
but thiss all was cut in erly 90. Now we have - 490B (Oplot) in Ukraina, and chybrid T-90A in Russia. Ob.640 and Ob.195 are ded.
Question now is about political will in Russia to developed new gen. tank, with new support...

 

[Damian]

We have wery big, but secret Tank Block III, and some "rubbish" like Thumper So propably in USA we have full "critical mass of new technologies" to develop new tank very quickly.

Of course, we have allready developed critical technologies like Cadillac Gage In-Arm hydrogas suspension system, XM91 autloader, Meggitt company autoloader/semi-autoloader, FASTDRAW autoloader/semi-autoloader and plenty of other different autoloaders, we have 120/140mm XM291 ATAC gun, SAVA/MTAS multisensor fire control system, modular armor designs, plenty of active protection systems, new compact, fuel efficent engines like XAP-1000 or LV100-5 + standard Diesel engines of AVDS-1790 series and AVCR-1360 series, different advanced 120mm and prototype 140mm ammunitions, and several different prototypes like TTB, CATTB and it's little "brother" "Thumper", mysterious Block III Main Battle Tank and US designers only knows what else.


About rest I completely agree, and Militarysta, please, work on Your english.

 

[militarysta]

About rest I completely agree, and Militarysta, please, work on Your english.

Oh, definitely When I write quickly, I make terrible mistakes...

 

[ace009]

Problem with our economy is not because our economy cant do some things, but because our politicians are morons, we have high taxes that are not needed, too much bureaucracy, waste of money etc. So the only thing we really need is to change our politicans from socialists to true right wing liberals.

As for stricte military problem, the fact is we could have UCP's in different classes in early XXI allready if for example ASM program in US would not be replaced by FCS.

We just let complete morons to decide about economy, armed forces modernisation etc.

These are reasons of our problems, hopefully it will change as soon as possible.

"Right Wing Liberals"

Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard one!!
Pick your poison dude - Right Wing OR liberal ... can't have conflicts there - can we?

 

[Damian]

Right Wing Liberals = Conservative Liberals also known as Libertarians.

The popularly called Liberals are in reality Socialists, they are in reality reason of our economic problems.

One example, taxes, in US taxes are maybe not as high as in Europe, but here for example I need to pay in taxes half of my sallary, incredible money is payed each month in form of taxes, besides this taxes are hidden everywhere, in food prices, in fuel prices etc. Incredible money, and the question is, where these money are? Why we spend so small ammount of money on our Armed Forces and Military Industry when we have so high taxes? Answer is simple, money are wasted, money are stolen by these assholes and situation is same in whole Europe, in US against such practics are only Tea Party and some circles in Republican Party. Still US is in much better shape than Europe.

This is one of several reasons why we have economic problems and in the end some EU countries are reducing their military beyond level of absurd!

But we should left politics here. EOT.

 

[ace009]

Right Wing Liberals = Conservative Liberals also known as Libertarians.

The popularly called Liberals are in reality Socialists, they are in reality reason of our economic problems.

One example, taxes, in US taxes are maybe not as high as in Europe, but here for example I need to pay in taxes half of my sallary, incredible money is payed each month in form of taxes, besides this taxes are hidden everywhere, in food prices, in fuel prices etc. Incredible money, and the question is, where these money are? Why we spend so small ammount of money on our Armed Forces and Military Industry when we have so high taxes? Answer is simple, money are wasted, money are stolen by these assholes and situation is same in whole Europe, in US against such practics are only Tea Party and some circles in Republican Party. Still US is in much better shape than Europe.

This is one of several reasons why we have economic problems and in the end some EU countries are reducing their military beyond level of absurd!

But we should left politics here. EOT.

I see - you are a right wing libertarian! Hmmm - you and I should have a discussion about Libertarian and Liberals - socialists and "right wingers" - but not here.
As for Europe, I would anyday like to have a demilitarized Europe than a pre-world war (or even a cold war) Europe, with ENORMOUS Weapons stockpile and trigger happy nationalists staring each other down. But that's just me ...

 

[Damian]

We should back to discussion about tanks.

 

[Damian]

Probabale photo os Knife ERA on Object-478DU10, IRCC this is factory designation of T-84M Oplot-M.