Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

putting words into the mouth?? people can go back and check their posts. summarily rejecting an "informed" COAS just like that and in a way disrespecting his POV (which comes with 1st hand experience and being part of the Arjun programme) for being a member of parliament only shows hollowness of thought.

as to Arjun was garbage in 2000 - i just posted links - in post # 454. it is better if people go thro' them.

inducting T-90S based on "trials" in Russia (cold conditions) in hot weather indian tropical climate is a "blunder" which has already cost us dearly!!! the saga continues with "issues" i have already highlighted and i am yet to get answers!!!!

and how the indian AUCRT of 3 T-90S went is also in the same post # 454.

pray tell how worse than garbage T-90S was. mmmmmmmmmmmm

and there is nothing to point from Pak lt. gen lodi's article. it is a typical pak propaganda and worse thing is people finding it as "credible". ==gudddjjj==

Why was the T-90 chosen over the Arjun?

 

[p2prada]

exactly. a question IA and supporters of T-90S need to answer. iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Obvious. You don't have an answer to it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Obvious. You don't have an answer to it.

When IA comes into play then i must say what i said before,

T-90S:
Back in 1999-2000 IA didn't felt to change the present T-72, but as the PA bought T-80Uds it also bring a chain of reaction within IA high ranked officials, During the purchase IA decide to bringing T-72BM but latter on same price we bought T-90S, the First 310 looked like we have enough but later on IA decided to replace the entire T-72 fleet by T-90s ( Based on the price of 2001-2006 ) later the Russian Raw material prices gone beyond anyone expectation therefore it was decided to manufacture of T-90 within home which we called M..

ArjunMK-1:
Arjun is a good tank and better than T-90s in many aspects ( This go both ways ), During its trial in 2000-2002 Arjun did missed few steps, and immediate purchase of T-80UD by PA caused IA to purchase T-90s as a counter step, Arjun was ready by 2006 in terms of firepower and other hardwares but by then IA bought T-90S and already using it as a replacement of T-72 ( On the basis of the price tag ) Arjun program was considered time consuming and expensive but later as IA saw Imported T-90 was getting expensive therefore it was decided to manufacture T-90S within the country to replace all T-72, Which is why we see today that the total amount of T-90s is around +1600, Arjun proved its worth against T-90S in recent exercise which made the IA to purchase more Arjun MK-1 and their will be more of them to to replace older T-90S from IA tank Fleets, after the production of 1000 T-90M..

Top IA official do says that " No long term wars can be won without continual supply of supplies within the country " , IA future is based on Indigenous equipment in mass..

 

[ppgj]

When IA comes into play then i must say what i said before,

T-90S:
Back in 1999-2000 IA didn't felt to change the present T-72, but as the PA bought T-80Uds it also bring a chain of reaction within IA high ranked officials, During the purchase IA decide to bringing T-72BM but latter on same price we bought T-90S, the First 310 looked like we have enough but later on IA decided to replace the entire T-72 fleet by T-90s ( Based on the price of 2001-2006 ) later the Russian Raw material prices gone beyond anyone expectation therefore it was decided to manufacture of T-90 within home which we called M..

ArjunMK-1:
Arjun is a good tank and better than T-90s in many aspects ( This go both ways ), During its trial in 2000-2002 Arjun did missed few steps, and immediate purchase of T-80UD by PA caused IA to purchase T-90s as a counter step, Arjun was ready by 2006 in terms of firepower and other hardwares but by then IA bought T-90S and already using it as a replacement of T-72 ( On the basis of the price tag ) Arjun program was considered time consuming and expensive but later as IA saw Imported T-90 was getting expensive therefore it was decided to manufacture T-90S within the country to replace all T-72, Which is why we see today that the total amount of T-90s is around +1600, Arjun proved its worth against T-90S in recent exercise which made the IA to purchase more Arjun MK-1 and their will be more of them to to replace older T-90S from IA tank Fleets, after the production of 1000 T-90M..

Top IA official do says that " No long term wars can be won without continual supply of supplies within the country " , IA future is based on Indigenous equipment in mass..

sir, that is well put. the first buy of 310 tanks was ok due to IA's threat perception then but when in 2005 Arjun was ready, it is perplexing why IA went for an additional 347 tanks (2007) and 1000 extra as per TOT when actually the russians should have been penalised due to T-90S's under performance and electronics frying out?? this is even more strange considering T-90S upgrade potentials being minimal and by design it is obsolete on most parameters!!! besides costing more with supplementary addons!!! i can't make sense out of this paradox.

..............

as to why Arjun will form the desert component, a simple answer.

T-90S thermals conk out and engines (V92S2) under perform (which are already certified by russians at 846/910 hp as against an advertised 1000hp) whereas Arjun has no problems and has enough reserve power. :happy_2:

 

[p2prada]

When IA comes into play then i must say what i said before,

T-90S:
Back in 1999-2000 IA didn't felt to change the present T-72, but as the PA bought T-80Uds it also bring a chain of reaction within IA high ranked officials, During the purchase IA decide to bringing T-72BM but latter on same price we bought T-90S, the First 310 looked like we have enough but later on IA decided to replace the entire T-72 fleet by T-90s ( Based on the price of 2001-2006 ) later the Russian Raw material prices gone beyond anyone expectation therefore it was decided to manufacture of T-90 within home which we called M..

ArjunMK-1:
Arjun is a good tank and better than T-90s in many aspects ( This go both ways ), During its trial in 2000-2002 Arjun did missed few steps, and immediate purchase of T-80UD by PA caused IA to purchase T-90s as a counter step, Arjun was ready by 2006 in terms of firepower and other hardwares but by then IA bought T-90S and already using it as a replacement of T-72 ( On the basis of the price tag ) Arjun program was considered time consuming and expensive but later as IA saw Imported T-90 was getting expensive therefore it was decided to manufacture T-90S within the country to replace all T-72, Which is why we see today that the total amount of T-90s is around +1600, Arjun proved its worth against T-90S in recent exercise which made the IA to purchase more Arjun MK-1 and their will be more of them to to replace older T-90S from IA tank Fleets, after the production of 1000 T-90M..

Top IA official do says that " No long term wars can be won without continual supply of supplies within the country " , IA future is based on Indigenous equipment in mass..

Good now we have something cleared here. Also, the T-90s were always meant to be license produced in India since 2001. We started late because of ToT issues and not because of spiralling prices in Russia.

Even the second batch of T-90s we contracted in 2006 was because of ToT issues which forced IA to buy 300+ more from Russia directly. As of 2006, the price of the T-90 in Russia was cheaper than the indigenously produced T-90 because of absorption of technology and the difference was Rs 1Crore. The second batch of 300+ tanks in 2006 came at a cost of Rs 11Crore a piece and were delivered by 2009 without cost escalations. I have already produced the PIB article claiming that. We have that cleared too.

One thing I want to point out is that the Arjuns are replacing the old T-72s in Rajasthan and not the T-90s which are meant to be deployed among our forward strike corps, the ones that will invade Pakistan. Even our old T-90s are not going to be replaced by any of the recent tranches of 248 Arjuns.

@ppgj
I already gave you a Parliamentary report on Arjun where it says the Army still needs changes in the engine, suspensions and electronics as far as back in 2007.

The problem is the moment the Arjuns failed the 2000 tests, the army had no choice but to go for the T types which are proven. It is primarily because the Army lost hope for DRDO to deliver on its promise after we were sanctioned in 1998. This meant all the technology that came from the west was sanctioned at the time and there was no way DRDO could make the engine, tracks, FCS etc from scratch in an inhouse development. Even after 10 years the engine, tracks and FCS in the Arjun are still foreign made.

Also, the Arjuns future changed not because of DRDO but because the sanctions were lifted in 2003. This brought Israeli digital electronics and German engine support which was lacking and transfer of tracks manufacturing to L&T.

All this when the T-90s were already undergoing Network Centric, Nuclear Biological and Chemical Warfare exercises and were part of Operation Parakram too. Multiple exercises were carried out with the T-90s while the Arjun was still reeling under tests. Look at the difference. The army was already creating a doctrine for the new T-90 while at the same time as Arjun was getting an electronics upgrade from analog to digital. The timeline made the difference for the T-90. It just came faster than the Arjun and was operationalized even faster.

T-90:
The T-90 was chosen in 2001 and the delivery of the first 300+ tanks came in 2004 with a maximum of 3 years for delivery at 100 tanks a year. The second order of 300+ tanks was completed in 2009. The third order is nearly half done and will complete by mid 2011. So, that's a total of ~750 tanks.

Arjun:
In 2004, the army placed an order for 124 tanks and the time given was 5 years to the time the first regiment of Arjun is to be created. The Army was very, very lenient on the Arjun. 5 years for 124 tanks and as promised the army created the first regiment of Arjun in 2009, last year.

Anyway the point is we need both tanks. Even if the T-90 were junked and the Arjun continued, the production line will never be able to keep up with the army's demands. The T-90 are produced at 100 tanks a year while the Arjun setup allows only 50 tanks/ year as of now. That's 1500 tanks by 2020. Now, the main Army contention is they would rather wait for the Arjun Mk2 than give a large order for Mk1. The time line allows for a major Mk2 order(unless something radically different comes along) post 2015. Even if the Arjuns were ordered in big numbers in 2006, the OFB would never have been able to keep up with the demand. Afterall it took 5 years for the first 124 tanks.

Even today the Arjuns being inducted are not part of the strike corps, they are part of the reserves and defensive battalions in Rajasthan which are only put through random tests rather than being part of the main Army war games. This means you have brought the horse to the water, but it is not drinking it.

 

[ppgj]

Making up!?..
This is the article provided by you to me..

Officers and soldiers of Indian Armored Regts know T-72 & T-90 use the same gun..

kunal sir i agree with your assessment. point to be noted here - our TOT agreement happened in 2001 and the latest gun at that point was 2A46M2 (as per fofanov) and the talks dragged on while russians kept playing spoilsport. this only got over in 2008. common sensically thinking, it is more than logical that russians gave 2A46M2 when they got for themselves the version 2A46M4 and 2A46M5 versions for T-80 and T-90 respectively. it is not surprising. every country does that. Russians gave us a generation old gun when they got the latest.

2A46M2 was inducted in 1992.

2A44M4(for T-80) AND 2A46M5(for T-90) versions got inducted in 2005.

http://www.russianarmor.info/

also sir when you say Arjun gun is superior i second that and would like to add a few points to what you already mentioned.

1. ability to fire longer rods with heavier mass resulting in greater penetration.

2. longer range due to longer barrel and higher elevation of the gun gets on the Arjun turret.

3. greater accuracy due to the rifling.

4. greater stabilisation of the gun with auto tracker to give it "on the move capability".

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

OTOH people calling Kunal Sir's valid analysis - based on the provided links - as "speculations"/"making up" and asking for back up have themselves not done so with various "claims" made by them. some of them being -

1. That the T-90S price tag is for everything, ammo, electronics, training, spares and other lifecycle costs.

2. That we got 2A46M5 gun as per TOT.

3. That the difference between the T-90S and T-90M tanks is only the ERA.

4. That our first 300+ tanks are T-90S with Kontakt, the next 1300 are with kaktus 5.

5. That the T-90 we are inducting is a completely finished model except APS. (i have listed a host of issues yet to be answered)

6. that the engine change time for T-90S is equal to that of Arjun (45min to under 2 hrs)

among other claims...

 

[sayareakd]

if the T90 gun is not uptodate then why the hell we bought that tech we have Arjun gun of our own and it has better accuracy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

if the T90 gun is not uptodate then why the hell we bought that tech we have Arjun gun of our own and it has better accuracy.

Actually Russian wont allow us to do modification on major scale..
For example TANK-EX was suppose to use existing chassis of T-72 but Russian didn't allow this and offered us new T-72 chassis, which resulted TANK-EX a totally new tank also expensive compare to other T-72 upgrades, Mainly-Mainly because of this reason TANK -EX project was closed by DRDO..

Further according to that Gov article it is obvious now that Russian don't like our domestic defense industry as we make better Gun than their latest ones from obsolete models given by them..

 

[p2prada]

kunal sir i agree with your assessment. point to be noted here - our TOT agreement happened in 2001 and the latest gun at that point was 2A46M2 (as per fofanov) and the talks dragged on while russians kept playing spoilsport. this only got over in 2008. common sensically thinking, it is more than logical that russians gave 2A46M2 when they got for themselves the version 2A46M4 and 2A46M5 versions for T-80 and T-90 respectively. it is not surprising. every country does that. Russians gave us a generation old gun when they got the latest.

2A46M2 was inducted in 1992.

2A44M4(for T-80) AND 2A46M5(for T-90) versions got inducted in 2005.

http://www.russianarmor.info/

also sir when you say Arjun gun is superior i second that and would like to add a few points to what you already mentioned.

1. ability to fire longer rods with heavier mass resulting in greater penetration.

2. longer range due to longer barrel and higher elevation of the gun gets on the Arjun turret.

3. greater accuracy due to the rifling.

4. greater stabilisation of the gun with auto tracker to give it "on the move capability".

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

OTOH people calling Kunal Sir's valid analysis - based on the provided links - as "speculations"/"making up" and asking for back up have themselves not done so with various "claims" made by them. some of them being -

1. That the T-90S price tag is for everything, ammo, electronics, training, spares and other lifecycle costs.

2. That we got 2A46M5 gun as per TOT.

3. That the difference between the T-90S and T-90M tanks is only the ERA.

4. That our first 300+ tanks are T-90S with Kontakt, the next 1300 are with kaktus 5.

5. That the T-90 we are inducting is a completely finished model except APS. (i have listed a host of issues yet to be answered)

6. that the engine change time for T-90S is equal to that of Arjun (45min to under 2 hrs)

among other claims...

Nothing against my last post?

 

[Agantrope]

When IA comes into play then i must say what i said before,

T-90S:
Back in 1999-2000 IA didn't felt to change the present T-72, but as the PA bought T-80Uds it also bring a chain of reaction within IA high ranked officials, During the purchase IA decide to bringing T-72BM but latter on same price we bought T-90S, the First 310 looked like we have enough but later on IA decided to replace the entire T-72 fleet by T-90s ( Based on the price of 2001-2006 ) later the Russian Raw material prices gone beyond anyone expectation therefore it was decided to manufacture of T-90 within home which we called M..

ArjunMK-1:
Arjun is a good tank and better than T-90s in many aspects ( This go both ways ), During its trial in 2000-2002 Arjun did missed few steps, and immediate purchase of T-80UD by PA caused IA to purchase T-90s as a counter step, Arjun was ready by 2006 in terms of firepower and other hardwares but by then IA bought T-90S and already using it as a replacement of T-72 ( On the basis of the price tag ) Arjun program was considered time consuming and expensive but later as IA saw Imported T-90 was getting expensive therefore it was decided to manufacture T-90S within the country to replace all T-72, Which is why we see today that the total amount of T-90s is around +1600, Arjun proved its worth against T-90S in recent exercise which made the IA to purchase more Arjun MK-1 and their will be more of them to to replace older T-90S from IA tank Fleets, after the production of 1000 T-90M..

Top IA official do says that " No long term wars can be won without continual supply of supplies within the country " , IA future is based on Indigenous equipment in mass..

Sir, The problem is not with the purchase of the T-90 tanks, but instead it is against the ditching effect on the Arjun by some men in IA. We need a newer tank to be replaced in mass and only T-90 can fit in the bill for T-72 replacement.

 

[Agantrope]

Actually Russian wont allow us to do modification on major scale..
For example TANK-EX was suppose to use existing chassis of T-72 but Russian didn't allow this and offered us new T-72 chassis, which resulted TANK-EX a totally new tank also expensive compare to other T-72 upgrades, Mainly-Mainly because of this reason TANK -EX project was closed by DRDO..

Further according to that Gov article it is obvious now that Russian don't like our domestic defense industry as we make better Gun than their latest ones from obsolete models given by them..

Any idea why Shothra is not in T-90s purchased by the IA whereas the pakistan have it in their T-80UD.

It is possible to continue the Tank-EX with the T-80 hull instead T-72 which can be purchased from the Ukraine?

 

[p2prada]

1. ability to fire longer rods with heavier mass resulting in greater penetration.

We don't have them longer, heavier rods. We only have Russian copies modified to suit the Arjun's rifle gun.

2. longer range due to longer barrel and higher elevation of the gun gets on the Arjun turret.

I will not argue with you on the elevation point. Arjun does have higher elevation. But the T-90s guns are 52 Cal guns and are longer. Also T-90s fire bigger shells, 125mm vs 120mm.

3. greater accuracy due to the rifling.

4. greater stabilisation of the gun with auto tracker to give it "on the move capability".

Pretty good advantages. But T-90 beats it with greater power. ~1760m/s compared to ~1650m/s muzzle velocity, that too for a higher calibre shell.

OTOH people calling Kunal Sir's valid analysis - based on the provided links - as "speculations"/"making up" and asking for back up have themselves not done so with various "claims" made by them. some of them being -

He claimed Arjun's gun is 55 Cals and I proved it wrong with simple math, brought it down to 50.4. He claimed ERA cannot be removed and he proved it wrong himself. He claimed DRDO shells are better. I proved that wrong again with a hint from Zraver.

1. That the T-90S price tag is for everything, ammo, electronics, training, spares and other lifecycle costs.

The Catherines came with the tank along with all the electronics that we see today on the T-90. There was no separate bill for it. Spares came along with it too. Any damaged engines were replaced on field during exercises. All damaged and irreparable Catherines(80+ in numbers) were replaced free of cost during trials by Russia. Warranty Period.

One thing about the T-90 manufacture. We have this guy with a pointy hat who pops in and pops out of Avadi. He just says the words "bazzinga" and a T-90 is made out of thin air. He does that 100 times a year. Of course, we never needed Russian manufacturing equipment, software and tools. The entire assembly line consisted of one ultra secret pointy hat dude. Nobody knows where he came from. Some say he lives in the North Pole with another guy who gives away gifts during Winter.[/sarcasm]

Whereas the Arjun's assembly line consists of hard working "mortals" whose equipment were bought out of Arjun's development budget.

2. That we got 2A46M5 gun as per TOT.

Gun inducted 2005.
Contract negotiated 2006.
Contract delivered 2008.

Of course, 2005 must have been last year.

3. That the difference between the T-90S and T-90M tanks is only the ERA.

Since we already have the gun. Yeah. Only ERA.
New engine was always in the cards, even before Igor's posted his article. T-90M was ready as far back in 2007 with tests completed a year later.

4. That our first 300+ tanks are T-90S with Kontakt, the next 1300 are with kaktus 5.

Remove old turret, replace with new turret.

5. That the T-90 we are inducting is a completely finished model except APS. (i have listed a host of issues yet to be answered)

All pretty much solved. New APU and AC included.

Whereas DRDO's new engine is nowhere near ready to be inducted along with a new generation TI and the supposed changes required in the Suspensions for Arjun.

6. that the engine change time for T-90S is equal to that of Arjun (45min to under 2 hrs)

We will wait for more information. Something is bound to come out pretty soon. The 12 hours on T-72 has been reduced to 6.5 hours on the V-84 engine. V-92S2 is bound to be faster anyway.

among other claims...

Come on don't hide them. Let it all out. You still have to reply to post 463(EDIT).

 

[p2prada]

Any idea why Shothra is not in T-90s purchased by the IA whereas the pakistan have it in their T-80UD.

Perhaps IA wanted a hard kill APS. Russia's hard kill Arena was in contention in 2008 for our T-90s. We may get the Swedish LEDS-500 fro our T-90s.

It is possible to continue the Tank-EX with the T-80 hull instead T-72 which can be purchased from the Ukraine?

It will mean a 4th guy and increased logistics footprint because of the T-80 chassis. Tank Ex was a fun club project by DRDO. Perhaps they were trying to be a bit innovative. This has been done before by some European company too, on a T-72. We don't buy from Ukraine anyway. Army will not buy it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Any idea why Shothra is not in T-90s purchased by the IA whereas the pakistan have it in their T-80UD.

It is possible to continue the Tank-EX with the T-80 hull instead T-72 which can be purchased from the Ukraine?

PA T-80UDs don't have Shotra..
http://ssg-commandoes.blogspot.com/2010/04/t-80ud-mbt.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/images/t-80ud-in-pak-right-l.jpg

It doesn't matter if we are getting the chassis from Russia or Ukraine, imported chassis will increase the project cost also making the upgrade costly one, TANK-EX upgrade was meant to be on existing chassis of T-72..

 

[ppgj]

Any idea why Shothra is not in T-90s purchased by the IA whereas the pakistan have it in their T-80UD.

not only shtora, even AC can't be put. where is the power going to come from??? no APU and already an underpowered engine!!! unless ofcourse a generator tags along.

pakistani tanks have ukraine engine 6TD2 with a 1200 hp output. they have APU too. the main engine takes care of mobility part while APU powers the electronics.

It is possible to continue the Tank-EX with the T-80 hull instead T-72 which can be purchased from the Ukraine?

IA does not care. so what's the point??

OTOH T-80 any day is a good choice compared to T-90. pakistan was smarter. even russian backbone when it comes to tanks is T-80 but it is slightly costly. we saved the russians who would have closed the T-90 production down and they rapaid us richly being a spoilsport. we are the biggest single customer and we even beat Russian army who are refusing them!!!

heck what is the problem when we can kill our own Arjun?? god bless india.

 

[p2prada]

not only shtora, even AC can't be put. where is the power going to come from??? no APU and already an underpowered engine!!! unless ofcourse a generator tags along.

pakistani tanks have ukraine engine 6TD2 with a 1200 hp output. they have APU too. the main engine takes care of mobility part while APU powers the electronics.

I don't understand your hatred for T type tanks. Are you indoctrinated or something?

The T-80s have AC and so do the T-90s. The T-80s are nearly the same size compared to the T-90 and it has an APU, AC as well as equipped with the Shtora APS. Just check fofanov again.

The Shtora was first used on the T-80s itself. The Shtora can be mounted on T-72 as well and also the T-90 as you already know.

Also, APU don't power electronics when the main engine is running. Nobody is fool enough to run 2 engines at once and nobody ever will.

OTOH T-80 any day is a good choice compared to T-90.

Russia already rejected the T-80 to the T-90 eons ago. Production continues but Russian army has made it clear they want the T-90 over the T-80. That's why the Burlak program for the T-90.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

OTOH T-80 any day is a good choice compared to T-90. pakistan was smarter. even russian backbone when it comes to tanks is T-80 but it is slightly costly. we saved the russians who would have closed the T-90 production down and they rapaid us richly being a spoilsport. we are the biggest single customer and we even beat Russian army who are refusing them!!!

Ppgi,
T-80ud is not good as Indian T-90S in terms of protection..
Firepower is same and mobility is better but again it consume lots of fuel coz it use a gas turbine instead of regular Diesel engine..

 

[icecoolben]

T-80 flunked in saudi trials, what makes people think they stood a chance in our thar deserts. If a was does break out, attriction due to faulty equipment is going to be greater than combat losses than both sides.
But drdo should have considered indian rail standards and all while constructing arjun, you cant change every tunnel and logistics for the sake of one platform. The japs reduced their mbt size to 45 tons to comply with their own road laws. Hence enable quick deployment with on damage to existing infrastructure, ok arjun mk-2 can get the minor improvements. But the fmbt has to be compliant with atleast Indian standards completely. We require a sleek mbt on the mountain front as well with the best armour to go toe to toe with chimes type 098.
Arjun still is in any day a better tank than any other for India.

 

[ppgj]

Ppgi,
T-80ud is not good as Indian T-90S in terms of protection..
Firepower is same and mobility is better but again it consume lots of fuel coz it use a gas turbine instead of regular Diesel engine..

sir firepower/protection being similar T-80UD is "supposedly" having 3 gyro stabilised sights.

other than that 6TD-2 engine is diesel 1200hp and a 1500 hp diesel 6TD-3 as an option.

The main difference of the T-84 from it's predecessor is aThe T-84 Main Battle Tank presence of a more powerful engine. Main battle tank is powered with 6TD-2 Multi-Fuel Turbo Diesel Engine. The 6TD-2 reaches 1 200 hp power. Furthermore there is more powerful variant of the T-84, completed with 6TD-3 - the 1 500 hp engine.

http://www.enemyforces.net/tanks/t84.htm

pakistan got T-84 (just an ukrainian name for uprated T-80UD)

why russians always favoured and still do T-80s?? even their "Black Eagle" was based on T-80U stretched version. the fact that T-80 went to Ukraine has forced russians to invest on T-72 variants and hence T-90 is getting attention. this is just to keep their market and even this was to be only a stopgap!!! they banked on "Black Eagle" first and T-95 next and both went nowhere.

 

[ppgj]

"my indoctrinated hate" to T-90S??? well well...

coming from the same person who was vitriolic on Arjun and called it "museum piece", "joe vegetable product", "won't be used in war" among other epithets now turns and says i am "indoctrinated to hate T-90S". does it surprise??? :emot15:

we already use rods which are heavier and longer on Arjun. i gave OFB links and sayar gave imageshack link.

1760m/s muzzle velocity of "indian 125mm FSAPDS"?? no indian tank fires russian rounds. i have given OFB links and IIRC they are israeli versions indigenously produced now.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm

muzzle velocity is 1660m/s. if somebody wants to refute that it is better if they backup their claim.

even if catherines were and are part of the T-90S the fact that they don't work in desert heat renders them useless. "power" is the issue. that is why they need an upgraded engine/APU.

people who keep proclaiming we got 2A46M5 have not produced a single source to prove it. it is very logical for any OEM to pass older gen when they move to the newer gen (to keep their monopoly) and that is what happened IMO in T-90S gun TOT. reasonable to expect 2A46M2 but even this is not for certain.

what has removal of old turret and replacing with new turret got to do with Kaktus ERA?? it is an addon.

all problems of T-90S solved?? includind APU/AC?? this keeps getting hilarious with no sources!!!

change of engine in T-90 (V92S2) may be faster than in T-72 but that does not mean it "equals" arjun's engine change time!!! if i have backed up for what i say, i would look for the same from the claimers.