Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

coming from the same person who was vitriolic on Arjun and called it "museum piece", "joe vegetable product", "won't be used in war" among other epithets now turns and says i am "indoctrinated to hate T-90S". does it surprise??? :emot15:

I don't hate the Arjun. Simple things like AC and APU exist on the T-80 along with the APS. But you still claim T-90 cannot have it because of your ego, even if the AC is staring right at you.

we already use rods which are heavier and longer on Arjun. i gave OFB links and sayar gave imageshack link.

India got a lot of Russian rounds. Just ask Ajai Shukla if you want. We received a truck load of them and then ordered more after we finished the first load.

What Sayar gave is a Russian copy modified to suit the Arjun. It is lighter than most Russian rounds, as you proved in your link below.

1760m/s muzzle velocity of "indian 125mm FSAPDS"?? no indian tank fires russian rounds. i have given OFB links and IIRC they are israeli versions indigenously produced now.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm

muzzle velocity is 1660m/s. if somebody wants to refute that it is better if they backup their claim.

Funny thing. You keep harping about shells but you have Zero clue about it. But, you killed your previous claim by yourself and you don't even realize it.

Check the projectile weight on the shell. That is more than 1Kg higher than the Arjun's 120mm. 6.8Kg vs 7.89 kg. Last I know, 6 is a bigger number than 7. The 1660 m/s is muzzle velocity at 5700bars that you find on the T-72. Yes. This shell belongs to the T-72 and all OFB figures pertaining to the 125mm shells is taking T72 into consideration. Heck, even the T-72 fires at higher muzzle velocity than the Arjun. The T-90 can fire the same shell at a much higher muzzle velocity at over 6500bars. Simple Math by maintaining EFC of the gun at 1. Go figure.

Come back when you learn more about ballistics before you go harping about heavier shells.

even if catherines were and are part of the T-90S the fact that they don't work in desert heat renders them useless. "power" is the issue. that is why they need an upgraded engine/APU.

ZZZ. Catherine power consumption is 18V to 32V. That's less than 100W. It consumes the same power as an ordinary 100W bulb and is 40-50W higher than a tube light. Go figure.

So according to you a 750KW engine is not capable of powering a 100W load. LOL.

Heck with a 25KW APU you can run 10 2BHK homes or 250 Catherines without problems. With a 750KW engine you can run 7500 Catherines.

people who keep proclaiming we got 2A46M5 have not produced a single source to prove it. it is very logical for any OEM to pass older gen when they move to the newer gen (to keep their monopoly) and that is what happened IMO in T-90S gun TOT. reasonable to expect 2A46M2 but even this is not for certain.

Look up difference between 2A46M2 and 2A46M5. Go figure.

what has removal of old turret and replacing with new turret got to do with Kaktus ERA?? it is an addon.

ZZZ. Backtracking. Did you not claim T-90M will need a new turret as regards to Igor's claim? So, we will just pull out the old turret and fix the new one in.

all problems of T-90S solved?? includind APU/AC?? this keeps getting hilarious with no sources!!!

Yes. They figured out how to deal with it. Just add an AC to it and voila. Problem solved.

change of engine in T-90 (V92S2) may be faster than in T-72 but that does not mean it "equals" arjun's engine change time!!! if i have backed up for what i say, i would look for the same from the claimers.

You are extrapolating by being regressive. Same claim as your T-90 cannot have AC when they have been available with AC since early 90s.

Engine change time is probably the only thing you are entirely right about the Arjun. But, even that does not mean a thing nor does it affect IA's operational efficiency.

You are yet to refute post #463. But you cannot because you just want to hold on to useless things by making me repeat and hope that post is forgotten.

 

[ppgj]

don't hate arjun!!! well that is revealing indeed after literally calling it a piece of junk and other epithets of which i quoted - some, in my last post. anyway happy to know that.

APU and AC are simple things alright and which do not cost bomb too. and i have never claimed they can't be put in T-90S. i have only talked about major "engineering effort" needed for it due to space problems in T-90S and hence the difficulty and have given a link too. again here -

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#5

as i have mentioned time and again, AC is not a problem for tanks in europe (most don't have) due to the climate there. T-90 was designed for such a climate and hence the need was never felt but operating in india means the need for an AC for it. that apart power requirements for it is an issue unless our T-90s have better engine of 1200hp and/or an APU.

..........

india got russian rods in the initial part but the idea was to fire indian ones. FCS needed to be calibrated for that which was done later and since then T-90S fires indian rounds and as i said IIRC israel gave us the technology.

..........

ok for those people who have 100% knowledge on "ballistics" length of the round is an important factor and this includes the propellant part too as a "unitary" round. a 2 piece round, like in T-90S due its autoloader limitations does not give the advantage of greater momentum unlike an Arjun round.

since atleast Zraver sir is beleived let's see what he says -

post # 48 -

If the round and charge are fully encased like the 120mm increasing the weight of the penetrator is possible to a far larger extent than if the penetrator and the primary charge are loaded in two pieces.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions/page2

which is what Arjun round does as a "unitary" round.

L/D ratio is an important factor which is being missed.

people suggesting me to brush up on "ballistics" also need to do it.

the fact that T-90S ammunition as per the links (OFB) showing the muzzle velocity as 1660m/s at 570MPA can also mean IMO, we have an older gun unlike 2A46M5 as being parroted.

.............

CATHERINES :

heck i have written umpteen number of times in this thread that they need AC!!! just picking on my "typo oversight" makes me have a good laugh. =xD

by "power" requirements i meant for the AC and not the catherines themselves. however i regret my typo!!!

...........

by now everybody here knows the difference between 2A46M2 & 2A46M5.

so "how" knowing the difference between the two is going to prove we got 2A46M5 when there is no info whatsoever on that!! still people keep claiming it to be so!!!

well all i can say is "good going". have a blast. iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

...........

just add an AC?? just like that??

as i have been saying, indian T-90S is woefully underpowered. how come an underpowered engine can afford about 10kw (13.40 hp) or more?? this is even more pertinent when there is no APU!!! they are struggling to put them and here are our experts saying it can happen "just like that".

wow. >>>>>>

..........

regressive?? i am only pointing out "issues" with T-90S!!! and i repeat i have never said AC can't be put. i am only saying it is difficult and with it's power requirements - even more. so people need to correctly interpret lest it becomes laughable.

 

[p2prada]

don't hate arjun!!! well that is revealing indeed after literally calling it a piece of junk and other epithets of which i quoted - some, in my last post. anyway happy to know that.

Wasn't I the one saying Arjun Mk2 should be inducted rather than Mk1. You are stiiiillllll yet to refute Post #463. Until then all what you posted is of minor importance.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#5

Little does our dear Ajay banerjee know that Russian T-90s come with the option of AC and they were running with 840HP engines.

Our AC may have the Israeli APU+AC combo.

How many times do I repeat myself? AC option was always there on the T-90.

The entire article is hogwash. DRDO making silly statements to prove how great they are. PR has no limit after all. They will cross the hurdle in record time with a lot of press statements to boot.

Have DRDO change FCS to more modern standards and they will need AC in Rajasthan too.

as i have mentioned time and again, AC is not a problem for tanks in europe (most don't have) due to the climate there. T-90 was designed for such a climate and hence the need was never felt but operating in india means the need for an AC for it. that apart power requirements for it is an issue unless our T-90s have better engine of 1200hp and/or an APU.

The Canadians live close to the North Pole and their Leopard-2s carry AC. Go figure.

All modern MBTs will come equipped with ACs. Arjun Mk2 will also come with AC. AK-2 too.

india got russian rods in the initial part but the idea was to fire indian ones. FCS needed to be calibrated for that which was done later and since then T-90S fires indian rounds and as i said IIRC israel gave us the technology.

I don't know which Israeli shell is used on our tanks. But we have some reverse engineered Russian rounds which are all the ones in OFB website. Israel does not make any 125mm ammo.

ok for those people who have 100% knowledge on "ballistics" length of the round is an important factor and this includes the propellant part too as a "unitary" round. a 2 piece round, like in T-90S due its autoloader limitations does not give the advantage of greater momentum unlike an Arjun round.

since atleast Zraver sir is beleived let's see what he says -

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions/page2

which is what Arjun round does as a "unitary" round.

L/D ratio is an important factor which is being missed.

people suggesting me to brush up on "ballistics" also need to do it.

Zraver also said that he would choose the T-90s gun over the Arjun if they come with heavier penetrators. Like I said you need to brush up on your ballistics because even after explaining it you don't get it. The T-90 fires a bigger shell(125mm) with a heavier penetrator(7.89kg) at nearly 1800m/s muzzle velocity. The Arjun fires a smaller round(120mm) with a lighter penetrator(6.8kg) at 1650m/s. The 2 piece disadvantage is already gone. The unitary rounds only help maintain velocity over a longer distance. Not a huge difference considering the T-90s shell will still be faster.

the fact that T-90S ammunition as per the links (OFB) showing the muzzle velocity as 1660m/s at 570MPA can also mean IMO, we have an older gun unlike 2A46M5 as being parroted.

Did it not occur to you that maybe, just maybe OFB did not update their website to include the T-90. *shakes head*

The T-90(2A46M2 as well as 2A46M5) shoots at 650MPa and gives an EFC of 1.0. The T-72 shoots at 570MPa at EFC of 1.0. The Arjun shoots at 612MPa at EFC of 1.0. The T types still reach higher muzzle velocities for some reason. Perhaps superior gun dynamics and quality is the reason.

Also, The T-90 guns give an EFC of 1200. The T-72 give and EFC of 1700 while Arjun gives an EFC of only 500. This means the T-90 can fire 1200 shells before barrel change while the Arjun can fire only 500 shells. Firing at higher pressures will decrease EFC substantially.

CATHERINES :

heck i have written umpteen number of times in this thread that they need AC!!! just picking on my "typo oversight" makes me have a good laugh. =xD

Then don't make those mistakes and end up laughing at yourself. The T-90s need AC only in one region of the country.

by now everybody here knows the difference between 2A46M2 & 2A46M5.

Zilch. Nada. Nichts. Nothing. The gun barrel is the same. Just improved quality control and new stabilization. That's about it. Depending on quality the 2A46M2 and 2A46M5 will fire at the same velocities. Zraver mentioned that too. Check back. He said there is no difference between the 2A46M2 and 2A46M5. The 2A46M5 is manufactured with better quality and that's the difference. There is nothing remotely advanced between the 2A46M2 and M5. Just a new number with better accuracy.

just add an AC?? just like that??

as i have been saying, indian T-90S is woefully underpowered. how come an underpowered engine can afford about 10kw (13.40 hp) or more?? this is even more pertinent when there is no APU!!! they are struggling to put them and here are our experts saying it can happen "just like that".

wow. >>>>>>

Like I said. The engine can power the AC easily since 840HP engines could do it anyway. Nothing "woeful" as you are making it out to be.

regressive?? i am only pointing out "issues" with T-90S!!! and i repeat i have never said AC can't be put. i am only saying it is difficult and with it's power requirements - even more. so people need to correctly interpret lest it becomes laughable.

The most recent post where you said the T-types don't have AC:
Post 473

not only shtora, even AC can't be put. where is the power going to come from??? no APU and already an underpowered engine!!! unless ofcourse a generator tags along.

The issues with T-90 are no longer there on paper. Once the AC is out the T-90s can fight anywhere they are designed to fight. It is not difficult at all since it already exists on older models.

Refute post#463. Without that there is no point in even continuing the discussion.

We are getting AC/APU. Gun, armour and ordinance is superior. Engine will be uprated too.

Next post if there is any talk about AC, APU, APS, Gun, Armour, Ordinance and Engine. I will not going to reply because you have lost out on all these parameters unless of course you come up with conclusive proof that I am wrong at some parameter.

 

[171K]

What kind of night fighting capabilities do the IA T-90, T-72 & Arjun Tanks have?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What kind of night fighting capabilities do the IA T-90, T-72 & Arjun Tanks have?

ArjunMBT: Present 124MBT using latest Elbit Thermal sights probably TADES Thermal Imaging Elbow Sight = http://www.el-op.com/files/PDF/ThermalImaging/UN_TADES.pdf or Advance, no specification given on operational ARJUN thermal sights..
Specification are not given..

T-90S/M: Most of the T-90S using CATHERINE FC = http://www.thalesgroup.com/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2603&LangType=2057

T-72: Unknown..

 

[171K]

ArjunMBT: Present 124MBT using latest Elbit Thermal sights probably TADES Thermal Imaging Elbow Sight = http://www.el-op.com/files/PDF/ThermalImaging/UN_TADES.pdf or Advance, no specification given on operational ARJUN thermal sights..
Specification are not given..

T-90S/M: Most of the T-90S using CATHERINE FC = http://www.thalesgroup.com/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2603&LangType=2057

T-72: Unknown..

I remember a couple of articles I read back in January that only 20% of IA tanks have night vision fighting capabilities, while PA tanks have 80%!

 

[icecoolben]

I remember a couple of articles I read back in January that only 20% of IA tanks have night vision fighting capabilities, while PA tanks have 80%!

Its because our Army still is mainly composed of obsolete T-72 tanks and T-55 tanks. the T-55 being retired and repaced by T-90, the T-72 would receive a capability enhancement for night fighting through a mega few thousand crore project, I hope L&T partnered with Raytheon wins this. The israelis are in this too, they have actually the process. The mig-21 upgrade they did, had huge benefits at our cost, lets not slip out this one.

 

[ppgj]

point is Arjun even in mark 1 version beats T-90S hands down. even Zraver agrees.

post # 66

I think its obsolete, the T-90M is far superior. I think it is slightly less capable than the Arjun but if it can be refitted to the T-90M standard it will be a capable tank.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions

T-90M is in prototype stage and not operational. even if Russia is willing "cost and time" goes against IA.

as to post # 463, it is hilarious how people keep nagging me to "refute" some post. all i want to say i reserve the right to reply at a convenient time.

...............

may be even T-72 also comes with an AC. point being??

israeli APU+AC?? what happened to the russian ones?? are they not good enough??

amazing thing about T-90S is -

indian + israeli rounds,

russian thermals are not good enough hence french catherines!!

russia refuses armour hence DRDO kanchan!!

russia can't calibrate FCS for the indian rounds hence DRDO has to do that!!

so, what is russian contribution apart from supplying inferior T-90S?? especially when the "cost" includes life support among other things??

and people rubbishing any articles highlighting T-90S problems have done nothing but keep parroting the same rhetoric again and again like a national song.

calibrating FCS is not going to solve AC problem. it is common sense. what the change does is to "allow" a different round with different dimensions and mass to fire from the same gun. ballistic experts here have no clue!!

...........

AC

i said "most don't have". comprehension problem??

strange canadians have it where they are not needed while we need them badly and we don't have them!!!

............

Israel does not operate mig 21s but they have a programme to update mig 21s!! makes sense??

that is how the israeli defence industry works. just because they don't use 125mm rounds does not mean they do not know how to make them. right??

.............

Zraver said he will choose T-90 GUN provided it is 2A46M5. so don't extrapolate on his observations. he stopped you once. he may do again.

i said and i repeat again.

a "unitary" round constitutes both the projectile and the propellant in a single case and together it constitutes both length and the mass. a 2 piece ammo does not constitute that. so figure out yourself since you are "the" expert when it comes to ballistics.

and also backup your 1800m/s muzzle velocity!!! even their best rounds (3BM42M) has 1750m/s as muzzle velocity!!

are you saying they are in use in our T-90s??

...........

OFB link not updated??

well here are the links for the company which makes the cartridges for all indian tanks -

http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/125mm.htm

Fin Stabilized Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) is a soft core Tank Ammunition fired from T-72 & T-90 tanks. It is the most lethal kinetic energy ammunition, capable of destroying all known tank armor up to direct shooting range. It has the capability of defeating the heavy triple target.
The complete round consists of two cartridges, the secondary charge (or the front cartridge) and a main powder charge called the primary charge (or the rear cartridge). SMPP manufactures cartridge cases for both the front as well as the rear cartridge.
Key features:

* Primary cartridge case: 4 components
* Secondary cartridge case: 3 components
* Extremely light weight yet strong enough to support the complete load of the ammunition.
* Fully combustible concept &

Salient Features ........................Mk I Mk II
Propellant Mass ........................19kg 19.3kg
Muzzle velocity ........................1500m/s 1600 m/s
L/D ratio ................................14 20
Range at which triple NATO target defeated 2.5 km 3.5 km

go rubbish this too!!! don't just shake head.

as for the rest figure out what is a "unitary round" and how it affects the "momentum" instead of parroting the same thing.

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AC needed only in one region?? i am sure that is the most important region where most tank battles will be fought!!!

..............

as i said everybody knows what is the difference between 2A46M2 & 2A46M5. fact is both can't shoot "unitary" rounds!! you need to change the autoloader!!

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AC

T-90S not woefully underpowered?? that is the principal reason why IA can't put an AC. besides any addon adds to weight too adding more burden and taking away more power!!! a double whammy!!!

for starters, an ARENA adds 1100 kg on its own!!!

..............

post # 473.

again i meant till engines are upgraded/APU put they can't put shtora or AC . again reading problem eh?? i added a "generator" to be tagged along which should have given you a hint. but well...

..............

as for the T-90S unless the issues like -

1. a high powered engine

2. an AC to take care of the "electronics"

3. an APU is installed

are settled, it can't fight anywhere.

 

[p2prada]

point is Arjun even in mark 1 version beats T-90S hands down. even Zraver agrees.

post # 66

LOL. Arjun has better potential. The way it is now, it is not enough. Also refute post #463. We cannot get ahead without that.

T-90M is in prototype stage and not operational. even if Russia is willing "cost and time" goes against IA.

Arjun Mk2 is only on the drawing board while the T-90M is ready for production. Do you see why I still say the Arjun is late?

Now if Russia offers us a whole "new" generation tank by the time Arjun Mk2 is ready, I won't blame the army going for it. They want to be ahead of the enemy, not materialistically patriotic. Who gives a damn for covering DRDO's profit margin, they are feeding off defence funds too? Break Even I believe. Hmpf.

Cost and time for T-90 are zilch compared to Arjun Mk2. It is already cheaper than the Arjun and came out years earlier than the Arjun Mk2 will.

as to post # 463, it is hilarious how people keep nagging me to "refute" some post. all i want to say i reserve the right to reply at a convenient time.

Haha! You cold have asked for more time right in the beginning. We cannot go ahead without an answer to that post anyway.

may be even T-72 also comes with an AC. point being??

israeli APU+AC?? what happened to the russian ones?? are they not good enough??

Who knows? You were the one claiming the T types don't have ACs, cannot have ACs, cannot power AC etc etc. You are backtracking.

and people rubbishing any articles highlighting T-90S problems have done nothing but keep parroting the same rhetoric again and again like a national song.

Arjun needs new engines as said in the parliamentary report in 2007. Where is it?
Arjun needs a new TI as said in the parliamentary report in 2007. Where is it?
Arjun needs changes in the suspensions as said in the parliamentary report in 2007. Has that happened?

calibrating FCS is not going to solve AC problem. it is common sense. what the change does is to "allow" a different round with different dimensions and mass to fire from the same gun. ballistic experts here have no clue!!

What are you talking about? I did not relate calibration of FCS to AC. Heck, I never even mentioned Calibration of FCS is any of my posts. Putting words in my mouth are we.

i said "most don't have". comprehension problem??

No. You said T-90 cannot have AC. T-80 cannot have Shtora too. Where can we put it yada yada?

strange canadians have it where they are not needed while we need them badly and we don't have them!!!

Monies and the simple necessity of having working electronics that functions anywhere in the world, like Afghanistan or Iraq.

Israel does not operate mig 21s but they have a programme to update mig 21s!! makes sense??

that is how the israeli defence industry works. just because they don't use 125mm rounds does not mean they do not know how to make them. right??

Give me a link saying we have ordered Israeli rounds for T-types.

Zraver said he will choose T-90 GUN provided it is 2A46M5. so don't extrapolate on his observations. he stopped you once. he may do again.

No he said. He does not mind the new gun with an improved autoloader that can fire longer and heavier rounds. Makes a difference. I just proved it by saying the Arjun's rounds are already lighter than the T-90's rounds according to your own link. 6.8kg vs 7.89kg.

Let's see some of the points he made shall we.
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...gain-T-90M-MBT?p=159504&viewfull=1#post159504

Ok, thank you although it does not specify, the long delay seems to indicate that domestic production tanks will be using the 2A46m5. I can see little reason why Russia would impose export ToT controls on a dated soviet era gun.

1. He did not prove the Arjuns gun was superior, the info provided did not look very impressive. Not at all superior in terms of raw energy to what the T-90's gun can do with modern ammunition and way behind cutting edge 120mm smooth bore ammunition. At best the Arjun's gun is adequate in that its no more under gunned that its opponents. If I was given a choice, all other things being equal- 2A46M5 w/ latest Russian ammo or India's 120mm rifled gun with its best ammo, I'd take the 125mm.

There are too many rumours suggesting the T-90s we have been receiving carry long rods because the autoloader has been modified. You are free not to believe it though.

a "unitary" round constitutes both the projectile and the propellant in a single case and together it constitutes both length and the mass. a 2 piece ammo does not constitute that. so figure out yourself since you are "the" expert when it comes to ballistics.

So what. Only the penetrator is going to do the damage. It does not help if the penetrator of the unitary round is lighter than the penetrator for the heavier round.

Something else from Zraver;
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...gain-T-90M-MBT?p=159612&viewfull=1#post159612

If really needed, then a 125mm round either HE, HESH, or APHE would be superior to a 120mm round. Bigger diameter equals a bigger bursting charge.

Also, this;

That beign said, I feel overall the Arjun is a better tank with a better future. I just am not a big fan of its gun and a few other things.

Arjun being newer has a better upgrade potential. So, why not wait for the Mk2.

and also backup your 1800m/s muzzle velocity!!! even their best rounds (3BM42M) has 1750m/s as muzzle velocity!!

are you saying they are in use in our T-90s??

I said "nearly" before 1800. Also, that speed can be reached and surpassed if you fire the round at a higher pressure than necessary at the cost of barrel life. Tankies have done it many times before.

OFB link not updated??

well here are the links for the company which makes the cartridges for all indian tanks -

go rubbish this too!!! don't just shake head.

as for the rest figure out what is a "unitary round" and how it affects the "momentum" instead of parroting the same thing.

The picture does not say much. Pressure values are not given. OFB says 570MPa. But, T-90 fires at 650Mpa. Huge difference. That picture gives half information at best.

AC needed only in one region?? i am sure that is the most important region where most tank battles will be fought!!!

Punjab. Our tanks in Rajasthan do not cross the border. Purely defensive. Don't expect the army to create a doctrine on 200 tanks or create a new supply line beyond the borders.

as i said everybody knows what is the difference between 2A46M2 & 2A46M5. fact is both can't shoot "unitary" rounds!! you need to change the autoloader!!

It only means Arjun's upgrade potential is greater. That's why it is better to wait for Mk2 than stick with the old MK1 which cannot even match T-90s production standards.

AC

T-90S not woefully underpowered?? that is the principal reason why IA can't put an AC. besides any addon adds to weight too adding more burden and taking away more power!!! a double whammy!!!

Then explain Russian AC on 840 HP engines. Politics comes into play here. The army did not bother with AC in the beginning for a reason we don't know, perhaps finances of the time. Nothing to do with underpowered. The engines give out enough power for AC.

for starters, an ARENA adds 1100 kg on its own!!!

Arjun's weight will cross 60 tons and near the M1A2 with ERA and APS. Not to mention an AC too. So, what goes for T-90 goes for Arjun.

T-90 will go closer to only 50 tons with AC and APS. Nothing a 1200HP engine cannot handle.

post # 473.

again i meant till engines are upgraded/APU put they can't put shtora or AC . again reading problem eh?? i added a "generator" to be tagged along which should have given you a hint. but well...

Your sarcasm is noted. But can you explain this picture?

For some reason the Shtora is working fine without a "generator tagging along behind it."

as for the T-90S unless the issues like -

1. a high powered engine

2. an AC to take care of the "electronics"

3. an APU is installed

are settled, it can't fight anywhere.

These are not issues. These are called upgrades and we are getting them. Much sooner than the Arjun Mk2 even qualifies for prototype production.

 

[ppgj]

the way it is now is way better than T-90S howsoever people want to look the other way.

what has my refuting post # 463 has anything to do with your going ahead?? and who is forcing you?? you can very well ignore.

............

arjun mark 2 does not need any design/structural/reengineering changes where as our T-90s need to - to become T-90M!!! a whole new turret, a whole new "additional autoloader" are not just addons. T-90M is in production?? another speculation!!! ohh so good to be fantasising!!! it is a beautiful world. no dispute. :happy_2:

if Russia offers... and IA wills!!! iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

so lets wait and see when that day arrives.

cost and time cheaper for T-90M?? (i see, you smartly omitted the letter "M" there). no surprises here and T-90M is only in prototype stage in RUSSIA.

............

i don't need "your" permission to refute or support and you are free to ignore me.

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AC bit -

i have said umpteen times on this. no question of backtracking. you can keep "baiting".

............

when for you, Arjun is "supposed" to be a junk and museum piece, does it matter what it sports??

............

again AC bit -

you are making a habit of misreading and misinterpreting. go on. ==gudddjjj==

............

this alludes to the israeli link to APFSDS that OFB manufactures. you need to pay to read it. go ahead.

http://www.business-standard.com/bsonline/storypage.php?autono=219530

and here is the israeli 125mm apfsds round made by IMI -

125 mm IMI M711 APFSDS-T round (Israel), Tank and anti-tank guns

Development

The 125 mm Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding-Sabot Tracer (APFSDS-T) M711 round, also known as the CL 3254, was developed by Israel Military Industries (IMI) as a private venture at the Zoref Plant, possibly in collaboration with a Romanian concern, to provide existing 125 mm D-81 tank gun series users, especially those fielding the T-72, with an updated anti-armour capability. The round uses the original propellant system, but the projectile assembly is based on the considerable experience gained by the then IMI in the development of APFSDS technology.Development was completed by mid-1995 by final qualification trials. Production is on a receipt-of-firm-order basis.

Description

The 125 mm APFSDS-T M711 is a separate-loading munition. It is loaded into the breech surrounded, behind the sabot assembly, by an integral combustible propellant charge in a combustible case and followed by a 4Zh63 semi-combustible propellant case.The aluminium sabot assembly consists of a three-segment sabot with a high-strength high-density tungsten-alloy penetrator rod forming the projectile. The penetrator rod and the sabot are interfaced by a series of mating buttresses, and the sabot is encircled by a plastic slipping obturator ring. The penetrator rod has a length-to-diameter ratio of approximately 20:1. The rod has an aluminium six-finned fin assembly at the rear containing a tracer element.The two-component propellant system is based on the design of the Russian Federation 125 mm APFSDS and can be auto-loaded using the loading system of the T-72 tank. Both components are encased in a combustible tube, which is totally consumed on firing. The rear charge continues to be the standard 4Zh63. A steel stub case, weighing 3.4 kg and containing the electrical primer, remains to be ejected after firing. The steel case is 140 mm long with a flange diameter of 171.9 mm.The muzzle velocity is 1,700 m/s. No ballistic-performance data have been released other than that the projectile has an extremely flat trajectory and no modification is required to existing D-81 gun series fire-control systems. Armour penetration is such that the round 'has been tested against modern targets and has shown excellent penetration capability'. It is also claimed that penetration is

The complete article appears in the following publication:

Publication Title Jane's Ammunition Handbook
Publication date Dec 01, 2009
Section Tank and anti-tank guns
Publication synopsis Jane's Ammunition Handbook is the authoritative reference guide for ammunition in service, in stock and under development. This comprehensive resource provides informed analysis of product developments and commercial history, as well as technical descriptions, specifications and illustrations for ease of recognition. With Jane's Ammunition Handbook, your procurement and research needs are also supported through the original manufacturers' details and expert reference tables to confidently confirm small arms identification.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Ammunition-Handbook/125-mm-IMI-M711-APFSDS-T-round-Israel.html

it talks of T-72 ammunition.

and here is what wiki says -

In parallel,the OFB announced in 2006 that it was also manufacturing 125 mm IMI (Israel Military Industries) rounds. It is believed that this might assist in improving the OFB's APFSDS manufacturing capability. These rounds and presumably the Mk2 round, will be used by both the T-72 and T-90 formations in the Indian Army.[50][51]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenc..._Organisation#Combat_Vehicles_.26_engineering

..............

Zraver was implying that the gun we have is 2A46M5. infact he asked me to backup when i spoke of our TOT problems with Russia and i did.

let me quote from your Zraver quote (you did not highlight the last line!! :happy_2

1. He did not prove the Arjuns gun was superior, the info provided did not look very impressive. Not at all superior in terms of raw energy to what the T-90's gun can do with modern ammunition and way behind cutting edge 120mm smooth bore ammunition. At best the Arjun's gun is adequate in that its no more under gunned that its opponents. If I was given a choice, all other things being equal- 2A46M5 w/ latest Russian ammo or India's 120mm rifled gun with its best ammo, I'd take the 125mm.

it is very clear what he meant. why are you extrapolating on things he did not say!!! neither we have 2A46M5 nor the latest russian rounds nor the new autoloader!!!

...............

rumours of a new autoloader?? the "only" new autoloader will come with T-90M which is in a prototype stage in Russia!!!

rest is all speculations. there is nothing to "beleive or not to beleive".

..............

penetrator ofcourse will do the damage but before it does that - it has carried on with greater momentum because of it's "longer" and "unitary" nature. think of the damage it will do!!!

a 2 piece ammo can't attain greater momentum because of the very reason it is 2 piece!! that is why you need a new autoloader to fire longer rods!! even fofanov talks about the "obsolete" ammunition with T-90s with autoloader limitations the links of which i have given many times.

as to 125mm HESH (referring to Zraver sir's quote) you referred, smoothbore gun on T-90S can't fire it. it was IA requirement for HESH 120mm rifled on Arjun.

Zraver was very clear. as i said he was referring to 2A46M5 and unfortunately we don't have them and neither do we have the autoloader to fire longer unitary rods nor the latest russian rounds!!!

.............

"nearly 1800"?? for a person who has been saying i(me) have "zero" knowledge on ballistics and quoting the projectile weights of T-90S apfsds and mocking, that is quite a thing!!

well done. =xD

.............

the link i gave of the company making cartridges was to "allay" your doubts that OFB link is not updated because it does not talk T-90.

............

punjab plains don't need AC?? well well...

Amritsar is located in Indian Punjab near the border. In the summer, Amritsar gets very hot, sometimes reaching temperatures above 50C.

http://www.travel-agents-in-india.com/states/travel-agent-in-punjab.html

amritsar is close to the border IIRC.

just because desert temperatures are highlighted does not mean AC is not needed in the plains.

...............

arjun mark 1 is way better than the T-90S. mark2 will be even better.

.............

finance is not an issue when it comes to national security and as yourself put it (and i agree) it costs peanuts to put an AC!!! even more important is the fact that T-90S buy was to outmatch T-84s of pakistan.

the fact that T-90S could not get an AC is because of the "power issue" and the "space issue" because our ACs need to be a lot more powerful because of temperatures rising to 60degrees here unlike in Europe.

..............

ofcourse Arjun's weight will increase but it has "enough" reserve power to take care of it. T-90S does not have. heck existing output may not even be enough for basic mobility since they have to fight pak T-84s at 1200hp!!!

1200hp would be good which is what i have been saying all along. but when??

..............

but shtora is not on indian T-90S!!! same issue. "power".

..............

yes they are upgrades and surprisingly Arjun does not have these issues. T-90S does since 11 years and still people want to call it "all finished" product.

 

[p2prada]

Ah! Go ahead. Believe what you want.

You don't have to refute post 463 either. You don't have an answer to it.

Cheerio.

 

[ppgj]

engine changes?? can you specify?? did you forget forget "data logger" AKA "blackbox" that MTU installed (for transmission and engine related accusations) mysteriously solved the problem!!!

i have given the links in the past. again -

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...tank-engine-black-box-installed_10070965.html

suspensions problems?? these relate to the piston rods as per your link. now don't you know the arjuns have been field tested and have run like no other tank

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-tank-for-accelerated-user-trials

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-gets-its-first-armoured-regiment-of-mbt-arjun

http://frontierindia.net/passion-of-the-arjun-tank {there are many links at the end of the article. must go thro' them}

and these problems relate to the 5 tanks which were given to the army post induction. now when any product which goes from r&d and development stage to production stage issues related to QC do occur and this applies to all products because the production agency is different and these are solved along the way. if you read your own link these were set right by 2006.

can you tell me with confidence if the T-90S has been similarly field tested considering it was being adopted to hot indian climate while they were designed for colder european climate?? results of which everybody knows and i listed some crucial ones?? some links -

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2081

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#5

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-to-buy-330-tanks-from-russia/24747-3-1.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-in-T-90S-tank-deal/articleshow/2786546.cms

why a superior local product gets "step motherly" treatment while those who should have been penalised are rewarded?? isn't it ironic??

"electronics" in an indian environment in any tank would be tough. amazing that Arjun makers were successful in hardening the electronics to operate at 60degrees while T-90S needs AC unit for which power and space issues need to be resolved. also Arjun's better ventilation takes care of the heat issue.

even if one accepts Arjun failing in 2000, how does it explain T-90S passed especially when i have given 2 credible sources which talk of how they performed?? out of 3 T-90s 1 engine broke down and all had smoke generating system pipes broken down!!!

http://cdm.ap.nic.in/casestudies/casevol362/Induction of tank T90s.pdf

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DTMPg5&sig=AHIEtbT1lAoDwQR1SYC9NvWU2DNsUsFqjA

is that good enough to pass?? besides post 11 years very serious issues remain. what has been done to set it right?? all Arjun needed in 2000 was an "active" participation from the army in the development process which they did not. if they had done then probably we would have had mark2 version by now with indigenous content to more than 70%. now we are stuck with an obsolete tank with no future and issues still to be resolved.

still the first lot of 310 unit purchase can be understood but definitely not the second and the rest of the orders. it only succeeded in killing a great opportunity in attaining FREEDOM at least wrt tanks.

there seems to be a change of heart in the IA now. hope they also follow IN and set up their own design centre and take part actively in the R&D and development of various systems they need at least from now on.

while talking of Arjun you are blaming only drdo as if they designed something the army did not ask for. every time IA changed the specs - DRDO had to go back to drawing board to re design and retool losing a great amount of time because of that. why this fact is forgotten by people?? yes sanctions were in place but have the sanctions stopped LCA or the ships?? why they could move forward was because the navy has been a steadfast supporter and even IAF has changed for the better in last few years. if the army had acted likewise the story would have been different and unfortunately that was not the case. for a system like battle tank - it takes 15 years minimum to bring it to production stage if the specs are "locked" and the user actively participates in the programme. in Arjun's case neither was true.

ok the Arjun's foreign content. this is actually laughable.

french "leclerc" has german MTU engines!!

abrams too have MTU engine produced in USA. both abrams and challengers have Rhinemetal guns!!

does it make them less indigenous to those countries?? why this point is raised wrt Arjun?? and how does it stack against T-90 which is 100% imported?? besides what is safely forgotten is IA never allowed the time to DRDO by frequently changing the specs before they could mature on the systems!!! what is also forgotten is the most "critical" systems like the gun, suspension, armour are all indigenous!! are these LESS in achievement??

also -

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...-indigenous-arjun-tank-hi-tech_100159572.html

when did the T-90S become net centric?? do they have BMS on?? that is revealing indeed. if not what stopped Arjun doing the same?? besides BMS is already on in Arjuns and not in T-90S!!!

and when did india start producing 100 T-90S tanks/year?? as of last august only 10 had been delivered.

Arjun can't have additional lines to jack up because of the orders. if the order is of 1000 production lines can be added to make it 100 units a year (similar to T-90S).

every time a superior system is added, logistics are created accordingly around it. this is true across the board to all the wings. army never showed interest in Arjun and hence never bothered to create logistics for it. so what is the point in raising an irrelevant point??

yes, even if Arjuns are ordered in good numbers T-90S will also remain part of the IA replacing T-72s. however T-90S issues need to resolved ASAP otherwise their capabilities will be no different than T-72s!!!

Arjuns being not part of strike corps only reflects Army's attitude to it. it is puzzling to say the least. the fact that Arjun is "superior" and in it's hunter killer capability, we have a winner has been established and if IA does not want the best tank in it's offensive strategy only they can explain the reason for it!!!

 

[bhramos]

T-90M

artistic image.

 

[Sridhar]

Russian-built T-90 tanks' thermal imaging system flawed

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp?filename=Ws171110Defence.asp

 

[san]

"During the trials it was observed that the temperatures inside the tank goes up to 55-60 degree Celsius resulting in the blurring of images taken by the camera," a senior Indian Army officer told Financial World on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to media."

How the tank crew will feel at 60 degree celsius? Even at 45 degree celsius my brain stop working.

If IA thinks that ,40 years ago our tank crew were able to fight at 60 degree celsius and in 2020 also they can win a tank battle having temperature of 60 degree inside the tank, it is pure stupidity.

 

[sayareakd]

may be they will install ACs or desert cooler inside T90 tank. May be they have installed one in the latest version of T90 tank.

 

[san]

may be they will install ACs or desert cooler inside T90 tank. May be they have installed one in the latest version of T90 tank.

There shall be some issue with the engine capacity to install ACs. Otherwise this problem shall not exist in 2010

 

[pmaitra]

"During the trials it was observed that the temperatures inside the tank goes up to 55-60 degree Celsius resulting in the blurring of images taken by the camera," a senior Indian Army officer told Financial World on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to media."

How the tank crew will feel at 60 degree celsius? Even at 45 degree celsius my brain stop working.

If IA thinks that ,40 years ago our tank crew were able to fight at 60 degree celsius and in 2020 also they can win a tank battle having temperature of 60 degree inside the tank, it is pure stupidity.

Now, that is what I am puzzled about. How does the temperature inside the tank result in blurring of images? It is obvious that they are using a camera, not a long pipe-like telescope, hence refraction is not likely to be a problem. Even then, if the temperature is uniform, there will be no refraction. I wonder if someone could explain how this is even possible, because, it seems like those who are making such claims are simply trying to fool others. I'll be happy is someone corrects any mistakes in my own understanding.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Now, that is what I am puzzled about. How does the temperature inside the tank result in blurring of images? It is obvious that they are using a camera, not a long pipe-like telescope, hence refraction is not likely to be a problem. Even then, if the temperature is uniform, there will be no refraction. I wonder if someone could explain how this is even possible, because, it seems like those who are making such claims are simply trying to fool others. I'll be happy is someone corrects any mistakes in my own understanding.

I think he was referring to post just above that which referred to Thermal Imaging.

 

[san]

Now, that is what I am puzzled about. How does the temperature inside the tank result in blurring of images? It is obvious that they are using a camera, not a long pipe-like telescope, hence refraction is not likely to be a problem. Even then, if the temperature is uniform, there will be no refraction. I wonder if someone could explain how this is even possible, because, it seems like those who are making such claims are simply trying to fool others. I'll be happy is someone corrects any mistakes in my own understanding.

There may be some electronics which will not work properly at higher temperature resulting blurring of images. I have used infared camera for measurement of hot surface temperature. From my experience if the surrounding temperature near to camera is above 45 degree celsius, mesurements are not correct and the instruments shows error signal. This is my basic knowledge only