Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

it had proven itself in 2005. army never did the comparative trials. IA ran away from the trials...

T-90 proved itself in 2000. 2000 is more important than 2005. Comparative trials is not the way to compare tanks when the difference is 5 years.

what about T-90?? were they ready then?? are they ready even now??

The T-90 only faced issues with software and FCS. Arjun faced problems with transmissions, tracks and engine.

do you think Pakistan still has the same armour?? they will move just as us!! do you think they will reveal?? armour is always a secret!! you will find only when we face off.

Sorry but the T-90M armour is far superior to the Kanchan on Arjun as well as T-84 and even Al-Khalid.

T-90M kanchan is a new derivative of the older Kanchan.

T-90M seems to be out of the world!!! isn't it?? god bless IA.

Currently, it is.

deployment is related to production which in turn is related to the order!!! for a paltry 248 order (as against an 1657 unit order for an inferior tank) you can't have additional lines of production. if IA had given a bigger order of 1000 or so, that could have happened.

btw how many T-90's have rolled out locally post 2001 TOT agreement?? as of august 2009 - a grand total of 10

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/59601.aspx

You are confused. I am not talking about deliveries. I am talking about deployment of tanks to border areas and beyond.

The T-90 beats any heavy tank in the world in deployment speed.

so, it does not matter the lives of the soldier who drive those tanks.. it does not matter if they have an underpowered engine, it does not matter in the event of a hit - they survive or not, it does not matter if they don't match up with the enemy vis a vis acceleration, speed etc...speedy deployment to lose?? great!!

The soldiers on the ground are more important than the soldiers in the tank. If enemy tanks reach even before our tanks do then they will inflict heavy casualties on the infantry before reinforcements reach. Also your comment about "survive or not" does not reflect the realities. The T-90M is better protected than Arjun.

gun ships? even LCH has an IAF order. IA is only interested.

Lot of haggling involved between the forces here. IAF don't want IA to invest in gunships and IN in Aircraft Carriers. IA want gunships and control of air bases for fielding them. IN want their carriers and have renamed their project to Air Defence Ships rather than Aircraft Carriers.

This will be the first time we will be using hundreds of gunships. Earlier we never had more than a dozen at a time. Cold Start needs Gunships.

answered already.

T-90 deal was struck in 2000, not 2005.

you only said down in the previous post that "we are the arm twisters"!! so, what has stopped us doing that in the last 11 years post induction?? so much for our power!! just because of the contract you want to send our brave soldiers on suicide missions?? bravo.

Our negotiators have to be good. Look at our Su-30MKI and PAKFA, the negotiators for the projects were good. They haggled well and succeeded. T-90 we managed some and we could not manage some. Case in point, we got the gun ToT. Nobody gives Gun ToT.

if you refuse to beleive the costs of both tanks known now, i can't help.

Come back with program costs of an Arjun tank and we will talk.
The Parliament speech was for program costs of the T-90. The unit cost of the T-90S and T-90M is nearer to 10Crores.

if KAKTUS ERA could do so much magic, why do we need even T-90 which is nothing but T-72 BM upgraded!!

Kaktus is indeed awesome.

DRDO kanchan does ring in my ears though. =xD

You could call it Kanchan Mk2.

what happened to our ARM TWISTING ABILITIES!! we don't get TOT on Armour, we get barrel tech after much haggling that too in 2008!!

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-russia-resolve-t90-technology-transfer-issues/350906/

It was never negotiated properly. Our technicians thought they could recalibrate the gun without Armour ToT and they were wrong. We never paid for armour ToT. After the mistake was found out we asked for armour ToT without wanting to pay for it. We were trying to cheat the Russians and therefore they denied ToT.

blessed indeed is IA by mother Russia!!!

Yes. Had it not been for them, we would have lost Kashmir to Pakistan years ago. Just because you don't like the T-90 does not mean anything to Indo Russian relations.

late latif??? even now, not ready T-90 is fine but ready Arjun is untouchable. god bless us.

T-90 is fine. It has performed all objectives successfully. The FCS had trouble and that was taken care of by the French. Arjun cleared its first trials in 2005, 5 years after the T-90 contract was signed.

a nitpick - i have not referred Livefist at all.

I am talking about Shiv posts comparing Arjun's unit costs to T-90s Program costs.

as for the rest you can beleive what you want to beleive. in the mean time i asked for what we heard in the "PARLIAMENT"?? you are yet to give me a link.

If I ever see years old Parliament speech on youtube I will send you the link. Shiv's blog also cites the Parliament speech as the price for the T-90. That's where Shiv got the T-90 price.

when T-90's can't even go near the T-80's the point is moot.

Not a big disadvantage. The FCS and stabilization on the T-90 is far superior to any Pakistani tank. The Pakistanis chose a high powered engine mainly to reduce deployment times against us. If we are foolish enough to choose heavy tanks and increase our deployment times then a lot of Civilians and soldiers will die at the border. PA will have the advantage of entering our borders first. We cannot allow that no matter what.

damned if they don't urgently!!!!!

Nobody is going to be damned.

hope that applies to T-90 too!!!

That's why T-90 was chosen.

but you missed one thing, when you build a product under licence, you pay royalty to the OEM!! why should we pay for an inferior tank?? besides for future upgrades you are at the OEM's mercy!! besides you create a pool of designers which will help in the long run from an india defence tech POV!!

The OEM have never objected to our T-72 upgrade. The pool of designers we had were 5 years late. The army had wanted the Arjun to be ready in 1999-2000, 15 years after the last change in the GSQR. Once they saw it was not coming, they did not bother with it any more.

Indigenization is good. But it must not affect the operational capabilities of the military. The designers have been given the Green Light for the Arjun Mk2 anyway. How many militaries in the world are that generous? None.

Also you are arguing with the point that the T-90 is inferior to the Arjun. But it is not. The T-90Ms survivability is greater than the Arjun.

did not we hear about russian refusal for the T-72 simulators very recently!!

Yes. We wanted to make our own by breaking IP rights. This is Russian property. We have no rights to it.

still it got 124 additional order!!

DRDO pressure on the govt. 124+124 = 248 with 48 for training and reserves. Museum pieces. They will never be used in war. Army will never create a separate logistics chain for 200 tanks.

It is to keep critics happy.

hope the army did not hear that.

I'm referring to the death of the Arjun. If the army has received orders from DRDO for T-90 shells, then nobody cares about Arjun anymore.



The problem is you consider the crew protection on the T-90 to be inferior to the Arjun which is heavily flawed. The T-90 has a superior armour because of the ERA tiles. You talk about the Arjun having faced off against T-72 shells and survived. The Russian K-5 ERAs have been tested against the Abrams DU shells and survived. The Kontakt-5 has been tested on the by the Leopards too. They were tested on old captured T-72s and even their latest shells 10 years ago failed to penetrate the old T-72s because of the ERA. The T-90s armour is currently way better than the T-72, as you already know.

The present Kontakt-5 is slightly superior to the older K-5s from 10 years ago. The modern Kaktus-5 we are getting will be 100-200% more effective than the Kontakt-5. Adding the Kanchan derivative makes the T-90M one of world's best protected tanks. The Americans are trying to replicate the same with their TUSK program on the Abrams too.

 

[nimo_cn]

We are not China to renege on contract deals.

What is your problem with China, guy? Can't you just leave us alone for a second?

Give yourself a break, that is good for your health!

IA insists on procuring T90 simply because T90 outperforms Arjun, not because they are binded by the contract. IA is not that dumb, if Arjun really fits India more than T90 does, they will not induct some Russian tanks.

Have some faith in the IQ of your Amy, they are the experts of tanks, they know what is the best on a battle field.

 

[san]

T-90 proved itself in 2000. 2000 is more important than 2005. Comparative trials is not the way to compare tanks when the difference is 5 years.



The T-90 only faced issues with software and FCS. Arjun faced problems with transmissions, tracks and engine.



Sorry but the T-90M armour is far superior to the Kanchan on Arjun as well as T-84 and even Al-Khalid.

T-90M kanchan is a new derivative of the older Kanchan.



Currently, it is.



You are confused. I am not talking about deliveries. I am talking about deployment of tanks to border areas and beyond.

The T-90 beats any heavy tank in the world in deployment speed.



The soldiers on the ground are more important than the soldiers in the tank. If enemy tanks reach even before our tanks do then they will inflict heavy casualties on the infantry before reinforcements reach. Also your comment about "survive or not" does not reflect the realities. The T-90M is better protected than Arjun.



Lot of haggling involved between the forces here. IAF don't want IA to invest in gunships and IN in Aircraft Carriers. IA want gunships and control of air bases for fielding them. IN want their carriers and have renamed their project to Air Defence Ships rather than Aircraft Carriers.

This will be the first time we will be using hundreds of gunships. Earlier we never had more than a dozen at a time. Cold Start needs Gunships.



T-90 deal was struck in 2000, not 2005.



Our negotiators have to be good. Look at our Su-30MKI and PAKFA, the negotiators for the projects were good. They haggled well and succeeded. T-90 we managed some and we could not manage some. Case in point, we got the gun ToT. Nobody gives Gun ToT.



Come back with program costs of an Arjun tank and we will talk.
The Parliament speech was for program costs of the T-90. The unit cost of the T-90S and T-90M is nearer to 10Crores.



Kaktus is indeed awesome.



You could call it Kanchan Mk2.



It was never negotiated properly. Our technicians thought they could recalibrate the gun without Armour ToT and they were wrong. We never paid for armour ToT. After the mistake was found out we asked for armour ToT without wanting to pay for it. We were trying to cheat the Russians and therefore they denied ToT.



Yes. Had it not been for them, we would have lost Kashmir to Pakistan years ago. Just because you don't like the T-90 does not mean anything to Indo Russian relations.



T-90 is fine. It has performed all objectives successfully. The FCS had trouble and that was taken care of by the French. Arjun cleared its first trials in 2005, 5 years after the T-90 contract was signed. We are not China to renege on contract deals.



I am talking about Shiv posts comparing Arjun's unit costs to T-90s Program costs.



If I ever see years old Parliament speech on youtube I will send you the link. Shiv's blog also cites the Parliament speech as the price for the T-90. That's where Shiv got the T-90 price.



Not a big disadvantage. The FCS and stabilization on the T-90 is far superior to any Pakistani tank. The Pakistanis chose a high powered engine mainly to reduce deployment times against us. If we are foolish enough to choose heavy tanks and increase our deployment times then a lot of Civilians and soldiers will die at the border. PA will have the advantage of entering our borders first. We cannot allow that no matter what.



Nobody is going to be damned.



That's why T-90 was chosen.



The OEM have never objected to our T-72 upgrade. The pool of designers we had were 5 years late. The army had wanted the Arjun to be ready in 1999-2000, 15 years after the last change in the GSQR. Once they saw it was not coming, they did not bother with it any more.

Indigenization is good. But it must not affect the operational capabilities of the military. The designers have been given the Green Light for the Arjun Mk2 anyway. How many militaries in the world are that generous? None.

Also you are arguing with the point that the T-90 is inferior to the Arjun. But it is not. The T-90Ms survivability is greater than the Arjun.



Yes. We wanted to make our own by breaking IP rights. This is Russian property. We have no rights to it.



DRDO pressure on the govt. 124+124 = 248 with 48 for training and reserves. Museum pieces. They will never be used in war. Army will never create a separate logistics chain for 200 tanks.

It is to keep critics happy.



I'm referring to the death of the Arjun. If the army has received orders from DRDO for T-90 shells, then nobody cares about Arjun anymore.



The problem is you consider the crew protection on the T-90 to be inferior to the Arjun which is heavily flawed. The T-90 has a superior armour because of the ERA tiles. You talk about the Arjun having faced off against T-72 shells and survived. The Russian K-5 ERAs have been tested against the Abrams DU shells and survived. The Kontakt-5 has been tested on the by the Leopards too. They were tested on old captured T-72s and even their latest shells 10 years ago failed to penetrate the old T-72s because of the ERA. The T-90s armour is currently way better than the T-72, as you already know.

The present Kontakt-5 is slightly superior to the older K-5s from 10 years ago. The modern Kaktus-5 we are getting will be 100-200% more effective than the Kontakt-5. Adding the Kanchan derivative makes the T-90M one of world's best protected tanks. The Americans are trying to replicate the same with their TUSK program on the Abrams too.

Too much praise for mother russia. Unbeliveable. Indians will do everything even selling their country to get some bucks. I believe other than indian nobody in the world praise a product from another country over to their own product so much. Hatch off. I believe with this attitude we will fail even with Pakistan in defence production.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90S will effectively replace all T-72 in IA..
Arjun is proved better itself in comparison to T-90S, And future is based on Indigenous products..

 

[Armand2REP]

Too much praise for mother russia. Unbeliveable. Indians will do everything even selling their country to get some bucks. I believe other than indian nobody in the world praise a product from another country over to their own product so much. Hatch off. I believe with this attitude we will fail even with Pakistan in defence production.

They are talking about T-90 compared to Arjun back in 2000. Yes, T-90 was better than Arjun in 2001, but it isn't better than Arjun 2010. That much has been proven in comparative trials.

 

[p2prada]

What is your problem with China, guy? Can't you just leave us alone for a second?

Sorry about that. I have edited my comment.

IA insists on procuring T90 simply because T90 outperforms Arjun, not because they are binded by the contract. IA is not that dumb, if Arjun really fits India more than T90 does, they will not induct some Russian tanks.

Have some faith in the IQ of your Amy, they are the experts of tanks, they know what is the best on a battle field.

I am supporting your argument. But following through on the contract is quite important in international relations.

 

[p2prada]

They are talking about T-90 compared to Arjun back in 2000. Yes, T-90 was better than Arjun in 2001, but it isn't better than Arjun 2010. That much has been proven in comparative trials.

The armour protection on the T-90 is still better than Arjun. Cost wise too T-90 is better and deployment times are better too.

Arjun wins hands down in the rest of the categories like engine, reliability and performance. But it is not going to beat the Pakistanis RPG-29s. I doubt even the T-90S is enough. Only T-90M will survive a direct hit.

Too much praise for mother russia. Unbeliveable. Indians will do everything even selling their country to get some bucks. I believe other than indian nobody in the world praise a product from another country over to their own product so much. Hatch off. I believe with this attitude we will fail even with Pakistan in defence production.

Grow up. Nationalistic pride will only get you a stick where the sun don't shine. Even the Russians have shut their traps and are buying European weapons while China is desperately stealing weapons technology from the Europeans, Russians and Americans. Indigenous looks good only in the history books and in political speeches. That's about it. You win wars by using your head.

Simply because we have made some indigenous weapons systems, people assume we are a great power and that everybody else suck. Get over your inferiority complex. We are like toddlers who just learnt to walk trying to compete in a 100m sprint with the real developers of weapons systems.

Edit: We are really lucky we get to buy most of what we want.

 

[Armand2REP]

The armour protection on the T-90 is still better than Arjun. Cost wise too T-90 is better and deployment times are better too.

Arjun survived a 120mm AFPDS round at point blank range with Kanchan. Considering Indian T-90s are not getting K-5 or Kaktus armour it is irrelevant what it can do. Can a Bhishma survive that at point blank range? I doubt it as the T-90 frontal armour without ERA is only 550mm RHA.

 

[ppgj]

T-90 proved itself in 2000. 2000 is more important than 2005.

2010 is even more important. T-90 is still not ready. hope it will at least at its retirement time!!!

Comparative trials is not the way to compare tanks when the difference is 5 years.

so applying the same logic, IA should not have any contest for the "ARTILLERY"!! it is already more than 10 yrs late!!!!

may be IAF should take the cue and scrap MMRCA and buy whatever that is available!!!

or does it apply only when a local product is in contest??

The T-90 only faced issues with software and FCS.

even FCS needed DRDO help!!! besides -

1. thermals is an issue for as long as i remember. they want to put an AC to cool the electronics from frying in the desert heat when Arjun does not even need it!!! speaks volumes for drdo and the vaccum for the russian expertise!!! where is your "life cycle support" gone???

2. absence of an APU is no problem!!! oh.. i forgot - it is a russian tank!!!

3. armour!! Russians refuse TOT!!! IA has to bank on DRDO for Kanchan!!!

4. engine is heavily under powered. calling 840 hp engine as 1000 hp must be a joke!! how russians cheated us is here -

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

are these not problems which existed then and exist now!!!

Arjun faced problems with transmissions,tracks and engine.

all sorted out long back. the problems/issues with T-90 still remain 11 years after induction!!!

mother Russia!!!

Sorry but the T-90M armour is far superior to the Kanchan on Arjun as well as T-84 and even Al-Khalid.

T-90m is not even a reality!!! good to be in fantasy world. i agree.

T-90M kanchan is a new derivative of the older Kanchan.

ohhhh.. is it DRDO???

Currently, it is.

with the issues i mentioned above???

You are confused. I am not talking about deliveries. I am talking about deployment of tanks to border areas and beyond.

i am not. i only read it differently than you intended.

deployment has many sides. it can mean -

1. tactical.

2. strategic.

3. based on available numbers.

i read it in terms of # 3.

as of now, IA has more T-90's than Arjuns which gives them the width to prioratise their deployment based on "strategy and need".

what you are talking is mode of transporting the tanks. Arjun has the necessary base -

by road -

http://i45.tinypic.com/11m6dsk.jpg

by rail -

http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Products/Defence/Eqpt Spec/BFAT Wagon.pdf

many such wagons were delivered long back!! the specs and model available in the above link.

by air -

if the probable buy of this aircraft happens -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/c-17-pics.htm

i have, in the past, referred with links to - how IAF had to struggle to transport the T-72 in an IL-76 (they were not designed for such) - in some other thread.

The T-90 beats any heavy tank in the world in deployment speed.

i guess they must be flying!!

what after deployment when they are not even mobile due to their crap engines??

The soldiers on the ground are more important than the soldiers in the tank.

0_0

If enemy tanks reach even before our tanks do then they will inflict heavy casualties on the infantry before reinforcements reach.

i spoke about how underpowered our T-90's are. seems you are answering the result of it. thanks.

Also your comment about "survive or not" does not reflect the realities. The T-90M is better protected than Arjun.

so what reflects reality?? T-90M is not even a reality in Russia. long way for IA to get them for a hefty payment ofcourse. =xD

Lot of haggling involved between the forces here.

how do we know???

IAF don't want IA to invest in gunships and IN in Aircraft Carriers. IA want gunships and control of air bases for fielding them. IN want their carriers and have renamed their project to Air Defence Ships rather than Aircraft Carriers.

does IA and IN dance to the tune of IAF??? IAF has so much of power?? never knew this.

This will be the first time we will be using hundreds of gunships. Earlier we never had more than a dozen at a time. Cold Start needs Gunships.

still they show only interest in LCH when IAF has committed to 65!!! does it surprise any one?? ohhh...my bad... LCH is indian. i forgot...

T-90 deal was struck in 2000, not 2005.

still waiting for a ready T-90??

Our negotiators have to be good. Look at our Su-30MKI and PAKFA, the negotiators for the projects were good. They haggled well and succeeded.

did not know T-90 negotiators have been soooooo innocent!!! but what was GOI doing with what you said, we are - ARM TWISTERS??? or did we get our "arms twisted??"

T-90 we managed some and we could not manage some. Case in point, we got the gun ToT. Nobody gives Gun ToT.

ohhh.. what benevolence from Russia!!!! for an obsolete tank even Russian army is refusing!!!

Come back with program costs of an Arjun tank and we will talk.

i already said 500 tank buy would give DRDO break even. so figure out. the price is known.

The Parliament speech was for program costs of the T-90. The unit cost of the T-90S and T-90M is nearer to 10Crores.

DM AK Anthony will love to hear that. even if it were in dreams.

Kaktus is indeed awesome.

i asked you why we need T-90 if we could solve by adding this magic KAKTUS brick to T-72??

You could call it Kanchan Mk2.

some how DRDO is becoming monotonous with things connected to T-90.

It was never negotiated properly. Our technicians thought they could recalibrate the gun without Armour ToT and they were wrong.

and how do you know??

We never paid for armour ToT.

any link????

After the mistake was found out we asked for armour ToT without wanting to pay for it. We were trying to cheat the Russians and therefore they denied ToT.

so inspite our "cheating", Russia is so kind that they are still "benevolent" to us??? i am really moved. ;(

may be the same negotiators handled "gorshkov" too.. only my guess.

Yes. Had it not been for them, we would have lost Kashmir to Pakistan years ago. Just because you don't like the T-90 does not mean anything to Indo Russian relations.

sir i have lot of admiration for Russia, Israel and France. but i am not blind to support them.

T-90 is fine. It has performed all objectives successfully.

fwiw T-90 is not suited for the indian climate. it is more suited for colder russian climate. the fact that thermals is an issue is precisely because of that - which, we have not sorted out yet 11 years after induction, besides many other issues i listed out above.

check the link given how T-90 were inducted -

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

guess "success" has different meaning in your and IA view.

The FCS had trouble and that was taken care of by the French.

last i heard, it needs an AC but they don't know where to get the power from!!! absence of an AC and space seem to be a premium!!!

Arjun cleared its first trials in 2005, 5 years after the T-90 contract was signed. We are not China to renege on contract deals.

if the army had cooperated it would have passed even before that. T-90 is still not ready. no complaints though and no surprise either.

I am talking about Shiv posts comparing Arjun's unit costs to T-90s Program costs.

i never referred Shiv. cost of both tanks are known. if you refuse to beleive...

btw, does the cost of T-90 tank include the cost of Kanchan 2?? it is a local one btw!!!

If I ever see years old Parliament speech on youtube I will send you the link. Shiv's blog also cites the Parliament speech as the price for the T-90. That's where Shiv got the T-90 price.

thank you. hope you find if it exists.

Not a big disadvantage. The FCS and stabilization on the T-90 is far superior to any Pakistani tank. The Pakistanis chose a high powered engine mainly to reduce deployment times against us. If we are foolish enough to choose heavy tanks and increase our deployment times then a lot of Civilians and soldiers will die at the border. PA will have the advantage of entering our borders first. We cannot allow that no matter what.

hope Pakistan knows it and will shiver at the thought of T-90.

Nobody is going to be damned.

indian people minus T-90 supporters.

That's why T-90 was chosen.

ohhh...ok... i understand.

The OEM have never objected to our T-72 upgrade.

or India found them not good enough or costlier or DRDO was equipped to handle???

The pool of designers we had were 5 years late. The army had wanted the Arjun to be ready in 1999-2000, 15 years after the last change in the GSQR. Once they saw it was not coming, they did not bother with it any more.

5 years late!!! ohhh.. heavens would have fallen right??? "artillery" is late by more than a decade!!! we needed more artillery power in Kargill?? right?? tanks never saw action there!!!

MMRCA is also more than 10 years late!!!

many inductions in all 3 services were late!!!

IA "AIR DEFENCE" also late by many years!!!

any complaints???

or is it because Arjun is indian???

Indigenization is good. But it must not affect the operational capabilities of the military. The designers have been given the Green Light for the Arjun Mk2 anyway. How many militaries in the world are that generous? None.

who is saying to induct local products to "REDUCE" operational readiness. it is the reverse!!!

Also you are arguing with the point that the T-90 is inferior to the Arjun. But it is not. The T-90Ms survivability is greater than the Arjun.

because you say it???

Yes. We wanted to make our own by breaking IP rights. This is Russian property. We have no rights to it.

last i heard IPR rights expire after 20 yrs. T-72's are more than 30 year old!!!

DRDO pressure on the govt. 124+124 = 248 with 48 for training and reserves. Museum pieces. They will never be used in war. Army will never create a separate logistics chain for 200 tanks.

It is to keep critics happy.

thank you for such kind words for your fellow designers who are striving for self reliance.

I'm referring to the death of the Arjun. If the army has received orders from DRDO for T-90 shells, then nobody cares about Arjun anymore.

there is another way to look at. it means Russian shells are no good. but i am sure you won't agree.

The problem is you consider the crew protection on the T-90 to be inferior to the Arjun which is heavily flawed. The T-90 has a superior armour because of the ERA tiles. You talk about the Arjun having faced off against T-72 shells and survived. The Russian K-5 ERAs have been tested against the Abrams DU shells and survived. The Kontakt-5 has been tested on the by the Leopards too. They were tested on old captured T-72s and even their latest shells 10 years ago failed to penetrate the old T-72s because of the ERA. The T-90s armour is currently way better than the T-72, as you already know.

The present Kontakt-5 is slightly superior to the older K-5s from 10 years ago. The educating modern Kaktus-5 we are getting will be 100-200% more effective than the Kontakt-5. Adding the Kanchan derivative makes the T-90M one of world's best protected tanks. The Americans are trying to replicate the same with their TUSK program on the Abrams too.

thanks for educating me on that. i never ERA's could do so much magic.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun survived a 120mm AFPDS round at point blank range with Kanchan. Considering Indian T-90s are not getting K-5 or Kaktus armour it is irrelevant what it can do. Can a Bhishma survive that at point blank range? I doubt it as the T-90 frontal armour without ERA is only 550mm RHA.

I guess u may understand what i am writing, And trying to explain here from last 7 pages,
but what to do people don't want to understand..

Arjun:
Turret: 500-570mm RHAe, Glacis: 410mm RHAe vs. APFSDS, ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: 650-830mm RHAe, Glacis: 730mm RHAe vs, HEAT. ( WITHOUT ERA )

T-90S:
Turret: vs APFSDS: 550 mm Glacis: 250-280mm ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: vs HEAT: 650 mm Glacis: 500-700mm ( WITHOUT ERA )

T-90S:
Turret: vs APFSDS: 550 mm Glacis: 250-280mm ( with Kontakt-5 ) = 800-830mm
Turret: vs HEAT: 650 mm Glacis: 500-700mm ( with Kontakt-5 )= 1,150-1,350mm

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/208-India-s-Born-Again-T-90M-MBT/page11

 

[p2prada]

2010 is even more important. T-90 is still not ready. hope it will at least at its retirement time!!!



so applying the same logic, IA should not have any contest for the "ARTILLERY"!! it is already more than 10 yrs late!!!!

may be IAF should take the cue and scrap MMRCA and buy whatever that is available!!!

or does it apply only when a local product is in contest??



even FCS needed DRDO help!!! besides -

1. thermals is an issue for as long as i remember. they want to put an AC to cool the electronics from frying in the desert heat when Arjun does not even need it!!! speaks volumes for drdo and the vaccum for the russian expertise!!! where is your "life cycle support" gone???

2. absence of an APU is no problem!!! oh.. i forgot - it is a russian tank!!!

3. armour!! Russians refuse TOT!!! IA has to bank on DRDO for Kanchan!!!

4. engine is heavily under powered. calling 840 hp engine as 1000 hp must be a joke!! how russians cheated us is here -

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

are these not problems which existed then and exist now!!!



all sorted out long back. the problems/issues with T-90 still remain 11 years after induction!!!

mother Russia!!!



T-90m is not even a reality!!! good to be in fantasy world. i agree.



ohhhh.. is it DRDO???



with the issues i mentioned above???



i am not. i only read it differently than you intended.

deployment has many sides. it can mean -

1. tactical.

2. strategic.

3. based on available numbers.

i read it in terms of # 3.

as of now, IA has more T-90's than Arjuns which gives them the width to prioratise their deployment based on "strategy and need".

what you are talking is mode of transporting the tanks. Arjun has the necessary base -

by road -

http://i45.tinypic.com/11m6dsk.jpg

by rail -

http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Products/Defence/Eqpt Spec/BFAT Wagon.pdf

many such wagons were delivered long back!! the specs and model available in the above link.

by air -

if the probable buy of this aircraft happens -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/c-17-pics.htm

i have, in the past, referred with links to - how IAF had to struggle to transport the T-72 in an IL-76 (they were not designed for such) - in some other thread.



i guess they must be flying!!

what after deployment when they are not even mobile due to their crap engines??



0_0



i spoke about how underpowered our T-90's are. seems you are answering the result of it. thanks.



so what reflects reality?? T-90M is not even a reality in Russia. long way for IA to get them for a hefty payment ofcourse. =xD



how do we know???



does IA and IN dance to the tune of IAF??? IAF has so much of power?? never knew this.



still they show only interest in LCH when IAF has committed to 65!!! does it surprise any one?? ohhh...my bad... LCH is indian. i forgot...



still waiting for a ready T-90??



did not know T-90 negotiators have been soooooo innocent!!! but what was GOI doing with what you said, we are - ARM TWISTERS??? or did we get our "arms twisted??"



ohhh.. what benevolence from Russia!!!! for an obsolete tank even Russian army is refusing!!!



i already said 500 tank buy would give DRDO break even. so figure out. the price is known.



DM AK Anthony will love to hear that. even if it were in dreams.



i asked you why we need T-90 if we could solve by adding this magic KAKTUS brick to T-72??



some how DRDO is becoming monotonous with things connected to T-90.



and how do you know??



any link????



so inspite our "cheating", Russia is so kind that they are still "benevolent" to us??? i am really moved. ;(

may be the same negotiators handled "gorshkov" too.. only my guess.



sir i have lot of admiration for Russia, Israel and France. but i am not blind to support them.



fwiw T-90 is not suited for the indian climate. it is more suited for colder russian climate. the fact that thermals is an issue is precisely because of that - which, we have not sorted out yet 11 years after induction, besides many other issues i listed out above.

check the link given how T-90 were inducted -

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

guess "success" has different meaning in your and IA view.



last i heard, it needs an AC but they don't know where to get the power from!!! absence of an AC and space seem to be a premium!!!



if the army had cooperated it would have passed even before that. T-90 is still not ready. no complaints though and no surprise either.



i never referred Shiv. cost of both tanks are known. if you refuse to beleive...

btw, does the cost of T-90 tank include the cost of Kanchan 2?? it is a local one btw!!!



thank you. hope you find if it exists.



hope Pakistan knows it and will shiver at the thought of T-90.



indian people minus T-90 supporters.



ohhh...ok... i understand.



or India found them not good enough or costlier or DRDO was equipped to handle???



5 years late!!! ohhh.. heavens would have fallen right??? "artillery" is late by more than a decade!!! we needed more artillery power in Kargill?? right?? tanks never saw action there!!!

MMRCA is also more than 10 years late!!!

many inductions in all 3 services were late!!!

IA "AIR DEFENCE" also late by many years!!!

any complaints???

or is it because Arjun is indian???



who is saying to induct local products to "REDUCE" operational readiness. it is the reverse!!!



because you say it???



last i heard IPR rights expire after 20 yrs. T-72's are more than 30 year old!!!



thank you for such kind words for your fellow designers who are striving for self reliance.



there is another way to look at. it means Russian shells are no good. but i am sure you won't agree.



thanks for educating me on that. i never ERA's could do so much magic.

I have no interest in repeating myself. The reality is the T-90 is being inducted and Arjun is not. It has nothing to do with corruption etc etc. For our operational environment the T-90 is a superior tank, and it is to stay for the next 30 to 40 years. That will be pretty much till the end of your retirement age. So, you can stick around and cry about it all your life or focus on the strengths of the T-90 and see where it can win the war for us.

This has been a waste of time.

Thanks.

 

[p2prada]

Arjun survived a 120mm AFPDS round at point blank range with Kanchan.

Surviving a 120mm AFPDS round from an old T-72 guns isn't great. The T-72 with Kontakt 5 has done the similar things against the Abrams more powerful DU rounds. All modern tanks in existence today will survive a T-72 gun.

Considering Indian T-90s are not getting K-5 or Kaktus armour it is irrelevant what it can do.

~1350 T-90s will have the Kaktus ERA. The ~300 T-90S in service are already equipped with the K-5.

Can a Bhishma survive that at point blank range?

The T-90M has been designed to survive the RPG-29 from close ranges. It speaks volumes about its capabilities. Only the T-90S can be penetrated by the RPG-29 at certain times at close ranges.

I doubt it as the T-90 frontal armour without ERA is only 550mm RHA.

The Arjun's Kanchan is of a similar size. All T-90 tanks will come equipped with ERA. All T-90M tanks will have a heavy side armour as well as equipped with ERA tiles for the turret top too. This is to protect it from top attack missiles. All pics of the T-90s you have seen till date are with equipped ERA.

Only the M1 with the TUSK upgrade will be the equivalent of the T-90M because of ERA. Even Merkava struggled because of the RPGs. 5 were penetrated in 2006 with reported deaths. The Challenger 2 was penetrated too, a RPG-29 went straight through the frontal armour and ERA. No deaths were reported though. After that even Challenger 2s received new armour for combat operations in Iraq.

The only tank shell that is known to penetrate the Kontakt 5 successfully is the American M829 standard shells. It is a depleted Uranium shell, APFSDS. None of the older versions can penetrate the Relikt ERA though, maybe the M829A3 will put a scratch on it. Kaktus is a much more modern ERA. No shell in existence can penetrate it. Even the Americans will take time to develop a new DU shell to get through the Kaktus. The T-90M is designed to be protected against every kind of shell in existence today and it also includes the RPGs. The Pakistanis are not in the position to develop a DU shell against the T-90M. All their existing and future procurements will be pea shooters against the T-90M.

 

[Armand2REP]

Surviving a 120mm AFPDS round from an old T-72 guns isn't great. The T-72 with Kontakt 5 has done the similar things against the Abrams more powerful DU rounds. All modern tanks in existence today will survive a T-72 gun.

The AFPDS round fired at the K-5 was the first generation M829 which was not made for taking on ERA. The 2A46 3BM42M round was and can punch through 630mm of RHA at 1000m.

~1350 T-90s will have the Kaktus ERA. The ~300 T-90S in service are already equipped with the K-5

Says who?

The T-90M has been designed to survive the RPG-29 from close ranges. It speaks volumes about its capabilities. Only the T-90S can be penetrated by the RPG-29 at certain times at close ranges.

Says who?

 

[Agantrope]

The T-90M has been designed to survive the RPG-29 from close ranges. It speaks volumes about its capabilities. Only the T-90S can be penetrated by the RPG-29 at certain times at close ranges.

Are you sure on this? The thing that toasted the Merkava is RPG-7 and not the RPG029, The thing that toasted the Leo and challenger is the RPG-29. RPG-29 is more powerful than previous versions.

RPG-7 toasted the the T-72s in the Georgian war and T-90 is no holier than the T-72BM which even a upgraded T-72. Get your stats rite before an arguement

 

[ppgj]

I have no interest in repeating myself.

neither do i.

The reality is the T-90 is being inducted and Arjun is not.

known though IMO unfortunate.

It has nothing to do with corruption etc etc.

i have never spoken of corruption. not even once.

For our operational environment the T-90 is a superior tank, and it is to stay for the next 30 to 40 years. That will be pretty much till the end of your retirement age. So, you can stick around and cry about it all your life or focus on the strengths of the T-90 and see where it can win the war for us.

why would i cry?? i am only wanting our army to buy the better tank.

This has been a waste of time.

same with me.

Thanks.

appreciate. thank you too.

 

[p2prada]

The AFPDS round fired at the K-5 was the first generation M829 which was not made for taking on ERA.

Yeah! This was 10 years ago. And that was the best available shell and it still failed. Till today 2 more advanced ERAs have been made. Kaktus is the latest.

The 2A46 3BM42M round was and can punch through 630mm of RHA at 1000m.

The point I am trying to make is neither Pakistan nor China have access to these shells. The T-90M cannot be penetrated by any of the existing shells they have. China may make DU shells, but Pakistani guns will have to be calibrated to fire them and for that they will need to go back to Ukraine. Fat chance they will do it.

Says who?

Check pics, all open source. The T-90s ERA is different from the tiles that you see on existing tanks. All our T-90s are equipped with ERAs. Google T-90 and India, check images. All the tanks you will see have ERA.

T-72 with ERA:

T-90 with fully equipped Kontakt - 5

Says who?

Says tests.

The Kaktus is the latest in ERA development. It suffices to say even AT-13 rounds have been tested on it too and so have existing shells from their inventory. Or are you suggesting Russians do not test their tanks? It is common sense.

How hard is it to believe the Russians have developed an armour that cannot be penetrated using current generation weapons. This is how tank armour has been progressing over the last 50 years.

Are you sure on this? The thing that toasted the Merkava is RPG-7 and not the RPG029, The thing that toasted the Leo and challenger is the RPG-29. RPG-29 is more powerful than previous versions.

I never mentioned which RPG was used to kill the Merkavas. I only said, "Even Merkava struggled because of the RPGs." Check back.

RPG-7 toasted the the T-72s in the Georgian war and T-90 is no holier than the T-72BM which even a upgraded T-72. Get your stats rite before an arguement

Oh! Puleese. Give me numbers of T-72s dead in the South Ossetia war. You will only get pictures of T-72s that were bombed by Su-25s by the Russians. What stats? Give me stats. You don't have them because the Russians never gave it to anybody.

The only thing similar in the T-90 to a T-72 is the proven chassis. Or else, the armour, gun and electronics are different. It is not a T-72. It is like the difference between a Su-27 and the Su-30MKI. Go figure!

 

[p2prada]

Al Khalids can be modified to fire DU shells in the future. But it will not be possible to penetrate the T-90M without a better gun.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Al Khalids can be modified to fire DU shells in the future. But it will not be possible to penetrate the T-90M without a better gun.

China may make DU shells, but Pakistani guns will have to be calibrated to fire them and for that they will need to go back to Ukraine. Fat chance they will do it.

No tank gun have to be modified for using DU..
DU rounds are available and they are not so Hi-Fi, Tungsten rounds have similar density and most nation use it..

~1350 T-90s will have the Kaktus ERA.

Kaktus is still in developing stage, That's the reason T-90M in recent show was with 'Relict'..
The info on BR and was not updated with time, Forget the Kaktus completely if you are talking abt Indian/Russian T-90M/S
Indian T-90S in future will be updated with Relict..

Some good info..

 

[san]

Surviving a 120mm AFPDS round from an old T-72 guns isn't great. The T-72 with Kontakt 5 has done the similar things against the Abrams more powerful DU rounds. All modern tanks in existence today will survive a T-72 gun.



~1350 T-90s will have the Kaktus ERA. The ~300 T-90S in service are already equipped with the K-5.



The T-90M has been designed to survive the RPG-29 from close ranges. It speaks volumes about its capabilities. Only the T-90S can be penetrated by the RPG-29 at certain times at close ranges.



The Arjun's Kanchan is of a similar size. All T-90 tanks will come equipped with ERA. All T-90M tanks will have a heavy side armour as well as equipped with ERA tiles for the turret top too. This is to protect it from top attack missiles. All pics of the T-90s you have seen till date are with equipped ERA.

Only the M1 with the TUSK upgrade will be the equivalent of the T-90M because of ERA. Even Merkava struggled because of the RPGs. 5 were penetrated in 2006 with reported deaths. The Challenger 2 was penetrated too, a RPG-29 went straight through the frontal armour and ERA. No deaths were reported though. After that even Challenger 2s received new armour for combat operations in Iraq.

The only tank shell that is known to penetrate the Kontakt 5 successfully is the American M829 standard shells. It is a depleted Uranium shell, APFSDS. None of the older versions can penetrate the Relikt ERA though, maybe the M829A3 will put a scratch on it. Kaktus is a much more modern ERA. No shell in existence can penetrate it. Even the Americans will take time to develop a new DU shell to get through the Kaktus. The T-90M is designed to be protected against every kind of shell in existence today and it also includes the RPGs. The Pakistanis are not in the position to develop a DU shell against the T-90M. All their existing and future procurements will be pea shooters against the T-90M.

I could not get at all your points. Can T-90M can have 100% protection with all shell. That is bullshit. Do you believe that NATO or even China will seat idal thinking that God has created T90M, their is noway any shell can defeat it. How you can say so confidently all this about T90M. Russian has changd S to M and within one day it becomes some super duper tank. Can you give some non russian link by western analysis saying that nothing will b able to penetrate T90M. What is the combat record of T90M or russian T90. Untill we get some independnt analysis or report you tall claims will not have any authenic truth. Also how many T90M russian army has ordered so far? If ther are so much advantage of low price, most adavanced, non penetrable by any shell, then russia shall already ordered several thousand of this mighty tank. Also we can atleat hear some order from Saudis, who already had tested the best tank T90 few years back. Barring India there are approx 300-400 T90 all over the world. That is really very poor number for this mighty tank after all the advertisement all over defence forums

 

[ppgj]

@p2p

just to clarify one of your point, which, i quote -

The unit cost of the T-90S and T-90M is nearer to 10Crores.

here is the article (there are many which you can get by googling)

The first batch of India's indigenously built state-of-the-art T-90 main battle tanks, with features like protection from nuclear attack, were handed over to the army at a function in Avadi near Chennai on Monday. The batch of ten tanks, each costing around Rs 14-15 crore, rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi and were inducted into the army by Minister of state for Defence M M Pallam Raju.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/aug/24/indigenous-t-90-tanks-inducted-into-army.htm

remember they still do not have APU, APS and also add the cost of Kanchan 2 armour which will IMO, will take the cost beyond 17.5 crore - which is claimed by Ajai, who also claims DM's statement to parliament as 17.6 crore.

there was PTI story put by Pintu here - http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...-Army-News-and-Discussions?p=59046&viewfull=1

post # 281.