Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

p2prada

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No tank gun have to be modified for using DU..
DU shells are heavy because Uranium is much much denser and heavier than lead. The guns FCS needs to be calibrated to fire heavier shells or the gun will never lob the slug at the required distance. The aim will be off and the target will be untouched. Calibration of the FCS is necessary and that mainly depends on the country which made the FCS.

DU rounds are available and they are not so Hi-Fi, Tungsten rounds have similar density and most nation use it..
Quality comes into play here. The Pakistanis have a DU shell called Nazia or something. You can't compare that to NATO standard shell and the American ones top the charts. Their standard M256 gun is what makes their tanks deadly. They get to you before you get to them.

Kaktus is still in developing stage, That's the reason T-90M in recent show was with 'Relict'..
The info on BR and was not updated with time, Forget the Kaktus completely if you are talking abt Indian/Russian T-90M/S
Indian T-90S in future will be updated with Relict..
Dunno if your information is accurate. Yes, Kaktus is in the testing stage. You will find them on our tanks full indigenous production progresses. Relikt is equally good too, better than Kontakt-5 but not as good as Kaktus.

Some good info..

Russian, it needs translation.

Anyway, it is possible the negotiations for Relikt you are suggesting could be for the T-72 upgrade rather than the T-90. I have heard the army wants the Russian upgrade rather than DRDO's Rhino upgrade for some of their tanks.

I could not get at all your points. Can T-90M can have 100% protection with all shell. That is bullshit. Do you believe that NATO or even China will seat idal thinking that God has created T90M, their is noway any shell can defeat it. How you can say so confidently all this about T90M. Russian has changd S to M and within one day it becomes some super duper tank. Can you give some non russian link by western analysis saying that nothing will b able to penetrate T90M. What is the combat record of T90M or russian T90. Untill we get some independnt analysis or report you tall claims will not have any authenic truth. Also how many T90M russian army has ordered so far? If ther are so much advantage of low price, most adavanced, non penetrable by any shell, then russia shall already ordered several thousand of this mighty tank. Also we can atleat hear some order from Saudis, who already had tested the best tank T90 few years back. Barring India there are approx 300-400 T90 all over the world. That is really very poor number for this mighty tank after all the advertisement all over defence forums
Well. You certainly put it in a humorous way. To answer your question, Yes. The T-90M cannot be penetrated by current shells and missiles.

You may have to get behind the tank or hit it in the same spot twice or thrice to break it, and you are going to have to use really powerful shells for the same.

@p2p

just to clarify one of your point, which, i quote -



here is the article (there are many which you can get by googling)



http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/aug/24/indigenous-t-90-tanks-inducted-into-army.htm

remember they still do not have APU, APS and also add the cost of Kanchan 2 armour which will IMO, will take the cost beyond 17.5 crore - which is claimed by Ajai, who also claims DM's statement to parliament as 17.6 crore.

there was PTI story put by Pintu here - http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...-Army-News-and-Discussions?p=59046&viewfull=1

post # 281.
I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand. The first 10 T-90s we manufactured locally costed only 14 Crores. That is really cheap. In the long run it will be even cheaper.

Look at the actual costs:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...in-desert-tank-battle/articleshow/5532011.cms

After getting 310 T-90S tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract
That's Rs 11.6 Crores/tank or $2.5 million.

ndia signed a Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia in November 2007 to import another 347 of these MBTs.
14 Crores/tank or $3million/tank.
It was a little more expensive because of cost escalation and expenses for ToT of the barrel for their best gun.

This was what India paid in full. This included costs of shells, spares and a lot of other things.

Then, the OFB was given a contract of $2.5Billion for the manufacture of 1000 tanks, at $2.5million/tank. This included the cost of tools and labour to build the tanks.

The first set of tanks will be a bit expensive because they calculate program costs rather than unit costs. By the time the 1000th tank is ready, the OFB would have made a profit of $250 million, which is 10% of the entire deal. This figure is an estimate and a base minimum. A 10% profit margin is easy to reach.

The final costs will be around Rs 10 Crores/tank. The final costs of the Arjun will easily be twice that, especially if you consider the extra amount of added infrastructure needed, like transports, spares and parts, training etc. Also, the numbers will never be as much as 1500+ for the Arjun. The IA cannot afford it.
 

p2prada

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This is something from a retired Lt General about the Arjun. I am certain his words carry more weight than a Major or the media.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm

India's indigenous tank production — a stalled effort

Pakistan's tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan's technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan's effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank 'Arjun', which is still not in production after 16 years of 'tinkering' and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan's Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service.

India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption

According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: "After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974." The Army's requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility.

The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army's Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even "freeze" the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the "Chetek" was produced and displayed on India's Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named "Arjun". Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.

The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was "frozen" for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army's "diluted" requirements. Despite the Army's reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a 'fait accompli' and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.

The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India's Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army's operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the government decision making level in India.

The Indian Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, which is the overall contractor of the Tank project has built 32 Arjun tanks so far. Of these, 12 are prototypes, 15 pre-series production tanks, two are torsion bar tanks, one test vehicle, one recovery vehicle and one Mark II model. Each vehicle differs from the others in some way. The 15 pre-series tank Models are the ones designed for series production as the Arjun Mark I tanks. The original requirement of the Army demanded a tank designed to provide state-of-the art and updated mobility, protection and firepower. The designers claimed that the Arjun Mark was at par with the most modern American Abrams MIAI tank. But the final product fell far short of the tall claims to the detriment of the Army's operational capabilities.

The weight of the Arjun Mark I tank has reached 58.5 tons. It was 6.5 tons above the maximum weight contained in General Staff Qualitative Requirements and as much as 18.5 tons over the Army's desired requirement. Final weight of the tank could exceed 60 tons, when explosive reactive armour is added, as is expected. Excessive weight is one of the drawbacks of the Arjun tank. It will be too heavy to cross many of Inida's bridges and be able to operate only on national highways. It cannot be lifted by standard Army tank transporters now in use and is also incompatible with present bridge-laying equipment. The Arjun tank is also too wide to use the existing transporters used by the T-72MI tanks. The Indian Army had, therefore, to invest $3.9 million to develop three rail cars to carry the new tank. The railways has classified the new tank as an "over-dimensional consignment" requiring an increase of 150 per cent over normal transportation rates.

After major problems with the Indian engine the Arjun tank is now equipped with an imported German 1,400 HP diesel engine. This gives the tank a maximum speed of 70 km per hour on highways and 40 km per hour off-road. It has a cruising range of 200 to 250 km on its 1,610 litres of fuel. Pakistan's Al-Khalid tank on the other hand has a cruising range of 400 km. The German MTU 838 engine and the transmission have given several problems. To start with the new engine and its associated transmission were too large for the original engine compartment which had to be modified. Field trials demonstrated that the engine lost 20 to 25 per cent of its power while operating in desert temperatures of 45 to 50 degrees Celsius. This was well above the 10 per cent that the Army expected as normal.

A report by India's Comptroller and Auditor General noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of transmission fluid during trials in the summer of 1997 because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded. The excessive loss of engine power was attributed mainly to the cooling unit, which failed to function adequately during prolonged use. As reported by some Army officers the cooling unit experienced sharply rising temperatures during full throttle runs and made excessive demands on the electric system because there was no auxiliary power unit to handle peak demand. A worse problem was the sand blasting effect in the desert, which caused leakage of the coolant and damaged the cooling fan blades. Field trials showed that life of cooling fan blades was only 600 km instead of the declared 4,000 km. Designers tried to rectify the flaws by installing an improved cooling unit on the rear deck. The unit is so bulky that the main gun can no longer fire at zero degrees elevation over the rear pack.

The Arjun tank uses a hydro-pneumatic suspension system, which has been giving problems. This system required recharging every 300 km in desert and semi-desert conditions. On soft ground it required recharging every 250 km. In the desert heat and dust sealing of fluids and gas malfunctioned causing leakage and requiring more frequent maintenance. Inherent design flaws in the hydro-pneumatic suspension were aggravated by the increase in the tank's weight, which was above the maximum specified by the Army. Owing to these problems two prototype tanks were equipped with torsion bars as an alternative.

There are problems with the tank's bogie wheels as well. These have to be changed every 600 to 1,000 km. Failure rate of the bogie wheels is due to poor quality material, early disintegration of rubber parts and poor bonding of rubber with steel. Aside from the technical failures the induction of the tank in the Army would be costly. India's Comptroller and Auditor General reported in 1998 that any regiment equipped with 45 Arjun tanks would require 16 additional three-ton lorries and 45 extra men to maintain operational mobility. The fire control system of the tank has performed poorly in field trials. Army officers are concerned that the tank's armour cannot defeat Pakistan's Baktar Shikan ATGM (anti-tank guided missile), therefore, explosive reactive armour may have to be added, thereby, increasing the weight still further.

In view of the constant problems with the manufacture of the Arjun tank the US journal of Military Ordnance writers: "It is tempting to describe the Arjun as a failure because of the numerous problems it has experienced and its many technological shortfalls. This judgement especially tempting since Pakistan's Al Khalid tank entered series production last year." The journal goes on to say, that such an assessment is too harsh and fails to appreciate the challenges faced by Indian designers. Indian experts are satisfied with the experience gained and the "understanding that results from 23 years of tinkering."

The Hindustan Times of India in its issue of August 13, 1999 comments on the success of Pakistan's Al Khalid tank and compares it with the Indian Arjun tank which at 50 degrees Celsius can "travel only at a snail's pace and is a sitting duck." The paper goes on to describe the problems with the engine that has "forced other compromises that gravely impair the Arjun's offensive capability and increases its vulnerability. Not surprisingly, the Indian army has flatly refused to induct the Arjun into the armoured corps in more than token numbers and is insisting on the purchase of the T-90." The paper sums up by saying: "After 16 years of 'research' the DRDO (defence research and development organization) has produced a lemon."

Writing in the Frontline, Chennai on March 16, 2001, John Cherian is of the opinion that it is no secret that the Indian Army's top brass is not very enthused with the capabilities of the Arjun tank. There have been complaints about its engine and fire control systems, which adversely affect its operational mobility. The public accounts committee (PAC) had reported that the project "fell short of even bottom line parameters" and its schedule for commercial production had overshot the deadline by more than 16 years. With the induction of the T-90s from Russia the scaling down of the Arjun project seems to have begun in right earnest, concludes John Cherian.

This short review of tank production in India is an effort to explain the difficulties faced by developing countries in the manufacture of heavy armaments. Pakistan has to a great extent overcome these problems in key areas of defence production, which may not have been appreciated by the people. Pakistan should be proud of its achievements in trying to reach a stage of self-sufficiency in armaments production so vital for the defence of the country.
Too many Red lines there. The T-90 was under trial against such a tank in early 2000. So, how do you expect the IA to chose it?

DRDO fixed the problems completely only in 2008, not even in 2005. In 2005, the Arjun's engine completely failed during Winter tests. 4 engines had to be replaced well short of their lifespan, actually in just a day.

Also, the comparative trials were delayed only because the Army did not like the fact that its decision was being questioned by DRDO, a seller who is supposed to have no right in this matter and pressured by the Ministry when the T-90 deal had already finished 5 years of assembly and local production was being readied. They were just playing their political games. The 124 tanks purchased the second time was out of pressure rather than any genuine need. A 5000 tank army buying 248 tanks. Don't you see something is wrong.

Now, of course, you can say that the Arjun is a success and that Lt General Lodi is a liar and that a retired major journo has more information about tanks that the the entire army and that the existing generals are just paid by the Russians and that everything is just unfair and that blah, blah, blah.

Read between the lines. Grow up. More Importantly, swallow your pride.

The Arjun sucks. Period. The T-90s are better. Period. The Army is right. Period. DRDO is your average-Joe vegetable shop. Period. MoD are politicians. Period. Journos are comic relief. Period. Go Figure!
 

Armand2REP

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Yeah! This was 10 years ago. And that was the best available shell and it still failed. Till today 2 more advanced ERAs have been made. Kaktus is the latest.
It was more like 15 years ago. As the US always does, they improve what poses them problems. They are on their third generation DU round which can cut through any Russian ERA. Kaktus has not been deployed on any Russian tanks and with the death of T-95, will not ever be. If it was so good they would at least put it on T-90s.

The point I am trying to make is neither Pakistan nor China have access to these shells. The T-90M cannot be penetrated by any of the existing shells they have. China may make DU shells, but Pakistani guns will have to be calibrated to fire them and for that they will need to go back to Ukraine. Fat chance they will do it.
The point I am trying to make is Russia has not given license for India to make their ERA. India didn't want to pay so they have gone with Kanchan. It will be a fat chance Russia will be able to send enough tiles in the case of war with either Pakistan or China. The shelf life of Russian ERA is only 3-5 years so it is imperative India can make it at home.

Check pics, all open source. The T-90s ERA is different from the tiles that you see on existing tanks. All our T-90s are equipped with ERAs. Google T-90 and India, check images. All the tanks you will see have ERA.
The first batch of T-90 which was 300+ came with Russian ERA. The batches coming out of Avadi do not come with it but will be equipped with Kanchan. The tanks bought from Russia will be changed with Kanchan after their expiration date.

Says tests.
Well the real test say it cannot...



The Kaktus is the latest in ERA development. It suffices to say even AT-13 rounds have been tested on it too and so have existing shells from their inventory. Or are you suggesting Russians do not test their tanks? It is common sense.
The Kaktus was made for the T-95, of which it will not be fielded. Suffice it to say, it was a failure since they would have put it on the rest of their tanks if it was better than K-5. It is common sense.

How hard is it to believe the Russians have developed an armour that cannot be penetrated using current generation weapons. This is how tank armour has been progressing over the last 50 years.
It is not a matter of believing, it is a matter of the facts of which there is nothing to support it.
 

Kunal Biswas

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DU shells are heavy because Uranium is much much denser and heavier than lead. The guns FCS needs to be calibrated to fire heavier shells or the gun will never lob the slug at the required distance. The aim will be off and the target will be untouched. Calibration of the FCS is necessary and that mainly depends on the country which made the FCS.
Yes its true abt FCS but not to the gun..
Yes DU its heavier than lead wich makes the round heavy but Propellant for DU/Tungsten rounds is different which completely change its velocity despite the weight, usually the round archive high velocity, And but inferior to the operational Tungsten rounds used by IA, These rounds are few but operational since 1980s..

Quality comes into play here. The Pakistanis have a DU shell called Nazia or something. You can't compare that to NATO standard shell and the American ones top the charts. Their standard M256 gun is what makes their tanks deadly. They get to you before you get to them.
Their is no term as quality in Pakistani ammo,
1. The may have get older DU from United states
2. These are Chinese copy of Russian Ammo, Further the export models are degraded..

My Friend,
M256 is a old rusty 50 caliber gun, you cannot compare to modern Indian 52 Cal Gun..


Dunno if your information is accurate. Yes, Kaktus is in the testing stage. You will find them on our tanks full indigenous production progresses. Relikt is equally good too, better than Kontakt-5 but not as good as Kaktus.
Yes, Relikt is the best ERA available in the world right now..
Kaktus is not going to be operational for now or in next 5 years..
It is obvious if you see the size and the thickness..

Anyway, it is possible the negotiations for Relikt you are suggesting could be for the T-72 upgrade rather than the T-90. I have heard the army wants the Russian upgrade rather than DRDO's Rhino upgrade for some of their tanks.
No, T-72 cant have either Relikt or kakatus, T-90 can only have coz it have a box configuration, where T-72 have round configuration..

T-90S/M




The T-90M cannot be penetrated by current shells and missiles.
You may have to get behind the tank or hit it in the same spot twice or thrice to break it, and you are going to have to use really powerful shells for the same.
T-90S is tested against AT-5 but not with newer modern TOWs..
T-72/90/80 or any one just need one good shot at turret ring to kill the tank, Besides Russian Auto-loader play the main part in t-tank explosion..
 
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Kunal Biswas

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The T-90M cannot be penetrated by current shells and missiles.
You may have to get behind the tank or hit it in the same spot twice or thrice to break it, and you are going to have to use really powerful shells for the same.
T-90S is tested against AT-5 but not with newer modern TOWs..
T-72/90/80 or any one just need one good shot at turret ring to kill the tank, Besides Russian Auto-loader play the main part in t-tank explosion..

 
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p2prada

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Yes its true abt FCS but not to the gun..
Yes DU its heavier than lead wich makes the round heavy but Propellant for DU/Tungsten rounds is different which completely change its velocity despite the weight, usually the round archive high velocity, And but inferior to the operational Tungsten rounds used by IA, These rounds are few but operational since 1980s..

Their is no term as quality in Pakistani ammo,
1. The may have get older DU from United states
2. These are Chinese copy of Russian Ammo, Further the export models are degraded..
The point being they don't have anything good.

My Friend,
M256 is a old rusty 50 caliber gun, you cannot compare to modern Indian 52 Cal Gun..
Sir. The M256 is still superior to the Arjuns main gun. There is nothing modern about the Arjun's gun. It was designed in 1990. The Arjun Mk2 would do better with a new gun.

Yes, Relikt is the best ERA available in the world right now..
Kaktus is not going to be operational for now or in next 5 years..
It is obvious if you see the size and the thickness..
No, T-72 cant have either Relikt or kakatus, T-90 can only have coz it have a box configuration, where T-72 have round configuration..
Sir. The Relikt was designed to counter the M829A3. This is the best DU shell out there. It does not matter if the Kaktus is late. If we are getting the Relikt as you say, it will still make it superior to the Arjun's armour.

T-72/90/80 or any one just need one good shot at turret ring to kill the tank, Besides Russian Auto-loader play the main part in t-tank explosion..
Getting a turret shot is difficult. Also, the T-90's latest model has ERA and armour protection for top as well. It is better protected than the old T-72s.
 

p2prada

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It was more like 15 years ago. As the US always does, they improve what poses them problems. They are on their third generation DU round which can cut through any Russian ERA. Kaktus has not been deployed on any Russian tanks and with the death of T-95, will not ever be. If it was so good they would at least put it on T-90s.
The Relikt has been made to counter the M829A3 Du shells let alone anything Pakistan can throw at us. It was made well after the M829A3 was deployed. Kaktus is the latest.

The point I am trying to make is Russia has not given license for India to make their ERA. India didn't want to pay so they have gone with Kanchan. It will be a fat chance Russia will be able to send enough tiles in the case of war with either Pakistan or China. The shelf life of Russian ERA is only 3-5 years so it is imperative India can make it at home.
The T-90 has 2 layers of armour. The composite armour and the ERA. ToT for both have been denied. To replace the composite armour, Kanchan was chosen. The ERA is only being purchased as an add on. DRDO also make ERA for the T-72s.

The first batch of T-90 which was 300+ came with Russian ERA. The batches coming out of Avadi do not come with it but will be equipped with Kanchan. The tanks bought from Russia will be changed with Kanchan after their expiration date.
You are confused. The Kanchan has been made to last 40 years. It cannot be taken off and neither can the Russian composite armour. The ERA is Kontakt-5. It is an addon and not really very expensive. The tanks bought from Russia will carry the composite armour till the end of the tanks life.

Well the real test say it cannot...

This was on the Kontakt-5. The Kaktus is totally different. Just so you know. During the tests the tank survived and the crew entered, enabled the firing sequence and drove away the tank after the tests were completed. All shells and missiles stopped short off the composite armour.

The Kaktus was made for the T-95, of which it will not be fielded. Suffice it to say, it was a failure since they would have put it on the rest of their tanks if it was better than K-5. It is common sense.
It is an ERA. They can be detached and reattached. They can be remade for any tank type they want.

It is not a matter of believing, it is a matter of the facts of which there is nothing to support it.
Funny. The picture you posted above, the tank took 45 hits from everything. RPG-7, RPG-29, AT-5, AT-13, T-72 guns using APFSDS; all multiple hits. It is still standing and you say there is no proof. Not one got through the composite armour. Some penetrated the ERA while some barely scratched it. Had the crew stayed inside, nothing would have happened to them.
 

p2prada

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Pictures:

T-90 with Kontakt-5


The tank on top has a welded turret. It means a direct hit on the turret will not blow up the tank as easily as on the T-72. Welding the turret started with the T-90A.

T-90 with Relikt:


Notice the armour on top. The T-90 is protected from all sides on this one.
 

Kunal Biswas

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The point being they don't have anything good.
Indeed!
But we cant count the same thing regarding ATGM..

Sir. The M256 is still superior to the Arjuns main gun. There is nothing modern about the Arjun's gun. It was designed in 1990. The Arjun Mk2 would do better with a new gun.
Comparison to L44 & L55 American Guns..

A. M256 is 120mm American variant of Rheinmetall 120-millimeter L44 of 44 Caliber( My bad in previous post, M256 is of 44CAL mm not 50cal )
Barrel length is 5,301 making it a 44cal

B. L55 is updated version of L44 120mm of 55 cal
Barrel length is 6600mm

C. Arjun Gun is 120mm rifled version which gives better accuracy,
Length of the Ajun barrel is 6050 mm making it close to 55 cal



Comparison to Russian 2A46M of 52CAL


Arjun 120mm have better chamber pressure than Russian 2A46M which makes Arjun Gun more powerful..

Russian T-90/72/80
Maximum pressure, crusher, Mpa 340 420 500
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2382&catid=314
Indian Arjun
The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa.
http://www.indian-military.org/army/armour/main-battle-tanks/247-arjun.html
Further my friend, Arjun use Single piece ammo, therefore we can use any Western Penetrator or Rod with modified sabot for Arjun Gun.
Over all ARJUN GUN is the best available to IA..

Btw, Pakisthan dont use M256 but 125 mm/50-calibre ZPT98 smoothbore & Russian 2A46M IN T-80UDs


Sir. The Relikt was designed to counter the M829A3. This is the best DU shell out there. It does not matter if the Kaktus is late. If we are getting the Relikt as you say, it will still make it superior to the Arjun's armour.
Dont confuse ERA with the Armour ..
Yes ERA will give the edge to T-90, but Arjun will have its ERA cover in days to come..

Getting a turret shot is difficult. Also, the T-90's latest model has ERA and armour protection for top as well. It is better protected than the old T-72s.
Turret ring is always a soft part in a tank, in case of T-tanks its auto-loader makes it more dangerous..
 
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Kunal Biswas

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^^ My above post made it clear that Arjun Gun is superior to American L44 & Russian 2A46M..
 

Armand2REP

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The Relikt has been made to counter the M829A3 Du shells let alone anything Pakistan can throw at us. It was made well after the M829A3 was deployed. Kaktus is the latest.
Relikt is not an uprated ERA for KE projectiles. It a modularisation effort to produce an ERA at cost and in large numbers. It is easier to replace than K-5 and costs less to produce. Its rating against KE is identical to K-5.

The T-90 has 2 layers of armour. The composite armour and the ERA. ToT for both have been denied. To replace the composite armour, Kanchan was chosen. The ERA is only being purchased as an add on. DRDO also make ERA for the T-72s.
The T-90 has the same BDD type armor as the T-72. Instead of aluminium and rubber sandwiched between cast steel, it uses titanium and rubber. Kanchan is a true composite armour, not that Russian rubber crap.

You are confused. The Kanchan has been made to last 40 years. It cannot be taken off and neither can the Russian composite armour. The ERA is Kontakt-5. It is an addon and not really very expensive. The tanks bought from Russia will carry the composite armour till the end of the tanks life.
It seems you are the one who is confused. Russia does not make composite armour but rubber/titanium inserts. The K-5 ERA does not have a long shelf life as proven by Russian tanks running around Georgia with empty bricks. The K-5 was expensive enough Russian MoD decided to make a cheaper version called Relikt. The tanks bought from Russia will be replaced with Kanchan armour during their maintenance overhaul as Kanchan is superior to rubber inserted with titanium sheets. This has been proven on Arjun.

This was on the Kontakt-5. The Kaktus is totally different. Just so you know. During the tests the tank survived and the crew entered, enabled the firing sequence and drove away the tank after the tests were completed. All shells and missiles stopped short off the composite armour.
Kaktus does not exist in the tank inventory of Russia. Just so you know, there was no crew in this tank. No live fire tests are conducted with the crew inside for obvious reasons. They would have been incinerated.

It is an ERA. They can be detached and reattached. They can be remade for any tank type they want.
And it hasn't been remade for any tank type. Kaktus has been around for the last decade and nothing has come of it, it never will.

Funny. The picture you posted above, the tank took 45 hits from everything. RPG-7, RPG-29, AT-5, AT-13, T-72 guns using APFSDS; all multiple hits. It is still standing and you say there is no proof. Not one got through the composite armour. Some penetrated the ERA while some barely scratched it. Had the crew stayed inside, nothing would have happened to them.
The hits of older generation weapons are irrelevant. None of those penetrated. The penetrations were caused by RPG-29 and Kornet. 3 penetrations of RPG-29 are evident in the picture. All rounds were fired in the most heavily protected area of the tank, the front turret and glacis. Any hits to the side or rear would easily penetrate. It is standing because it is stripped of anything that can burn. HEAT rounds do not explode, they force a jet molten copper. If the crew had stayed inside, they would have been melted to cindering ash.
 

ppgj

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I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand. The first 10 T-90s we manufactured locally costed only 14 Crores. That is really cheap. In the long run it will be even cheaper.

Look at the actual costs:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...in-desert-tank-battle/articleshow/5532011.cms

That's Rs 11.6 Crores/tank or $2.5 million.

14 Crores/tank or $3million/tank.

It was a little more expensive because of cost escalation and expenses for ToT of the barrel for their best gun.
the whole drama behind this "supposed" cost was to show T-90 cost as lower as compared to Arjun and this was unravelled, the links of which i have given in the past. there was direct accusation in the article by Ajai shukla - he headlineded it - "piercing army's armour of deception!!". he also said this -

FRAUD ON THE NATION?

* Key operational systems were kept out to bring the price down

* Parliament wasn't told about this, nor of the plan for supplementary contracts

* The performance on the ground showed that the T-90 was an appalling mistake

* This has set in train even more costly cover-ups

* All this, while the indigenous Arjun is free of many of these minuses
does it ring in the ears??? they are scathing attacks!!!

result?? no denial from IA or GOI!!!

does it show deception or not?? or still you want to hang on to to your imagined holy truth??

read it again http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

This was what India paid in full. This included costs of shells, spares and a lot of other things.
your link does not say any of it.

remember a proverb - "repeat the lie a 1000 times.. it becomes the truth!!!"

Then, the OFB was given a contract of $2.5Billion for the manufacture of 1000 tanks, at $2.5million/tank. This included the cost of tools and labour to build the tanks.

The first set of tanks will be a bit expensive because they calculate program costs rather than unit costs. By the time the 1000th tank is ready, the OFB would have made a profit of $250 million, which is 10% of the entire deal. This figure is an estimate and a base minimum. A 10% profit margin is easy to reach.
fact is still T-90's will not have many systems a modern MBT needs to have!!! that is why the cost is lower to Arjun. is that hard to understand??

The final costs will be around Rs 10 Crores/tank. The final costs of the Arjun will easily be twice that, especially if you consider the extra amount of added infrastructure needed, like transports, spares and parts, training etc. Also, the numbers will never be as much as 1500+ for the Arjun. The IA cannot afford it.
refusal to accept reality inspite of incontrovertable evidence suggests only one thing - hate and an irrational negative bias to Arjun and a blind love to T-90, unfortunatley nothing can be done in this.
 

p2prada

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Indeed!
But we cant count the same thing regarding ATGM.
Agreed.

Comparison to L44 & L55 American Guns..

A. M256 is 120mm American variant of Rheinmetall 120-millimeter L44 of 44 Caliber( My bad in previous post, M256 is of 44CAL mm not 50cal )
Barrel length is 5,301 making it a 44cal

B. L55 is updated version of L44 120mm of 55 cal
Barrel length is 6600mm

C. Arjun Gun is 120mm rifled version which gives better accuracy,
Length of the Ajun barrel is 6050 mm making it close to 55 cal



Comparison to Russian 2A46M of 52CAL
The problem is you are comparing specs. You cannot compare specs and decide which is the better gun. There are too many factors that govern the quality and power of guns. Even Shell quality matters.

The quality of the M256 Suspension, heat sinks, recoil springs, shell structure, shell shaping will be superior to the Arjun's for obvious reasons. There is no debating it. The Germans and Americans have better manufacturing techniques. Their ballistics technology is ahead of the Russians too, let alone us.

The max the Arjun can shoot a shell is at 1680m/s. The American shells have been reported to travel at velocities of upto 1800m/s, mainly their Heavy DU shells.

Further my friend, Arjun use Single piece ammo, therefore we can use any Western Penetrator or Rod with modified sabot for Arjun Gun.
Over all ARJUN GUN is the best available to IA..
Not sure if we are going to opt for foreign shells.

Btw, Pakisthan dont use M256 but 125 mm/50-calibre ZPT98 smoothbore & Russian 2A46M IN T-80UDs
I know. This means they have no way of penetrating the T-90M.

Dont confuse ERA with the Armour ..
I am not. If you check my posts with Armand, I am explaining the same to him.

Yes ERA will give the edge to T-90, but Arjun will have its ERA cover in days to come..
The T-90 had ERA in 2000 when the contract took place. The Arjun will have an ERA...when? Will it be ready when the Kaktus comes out?

Turret ring is always a soft part in a tank, in case of T-tanks its auto-loader makes it more dangerous..
I agree. But, if you say this as the only reason why we have to go for Arjun instead then you are mistaken. The T-90 is cheaper, easily deployable and has superior armour. More number of T-90s can be deployed as compared to the Arjun too. Arjun's ERA is a paper project. The NERA is not even equipped to fight off KE penetrators which is the exact opposite of ERA. It only kills HEAT rounds.

^^ My above post made it clear that Arjun Gun is superior to American L44 & Russian 2A46M..
You cannot compare the Arjun's gun with the L-44. It is an older generation gun. Funny how people like comparing the 2010 Arjun with the 2000 T-90 and the 1990 Arjun gun to the 1970 M1 gun.

Relikt is not an uprated ERA for KE projectiles. It a modularisation effort to produce an ERA at cost and in large numbers. It is easier to replace than K-5 and costs less to produce. Its rating against KE is identical to K-5.
LOL. Relikt, Kaktus and kontakt-5 was made particularly to fight off the American DU. The Russians even said so when they released the Relikt. They are KE shells. The Relikt rating against KE is much higher than the K-5. It is a more advanced form.

The T-90 has the same BDD type armor as the T-72. Instead of aluminium and rubber sandwiched between cast steel, it uses titanium and rubber. Kanchan is a true composite armour, not that Russian rubber crap.
Are you kidding? The Russians were the first in the world to use composite armour. The T-64 had it. It was a 3 layer glass reinforced plastic armour. This formed the basis for the Chobam and later the Kanchan armour. The T-64 was the best protected tank at the time it was introduced. It was only after that the Chobam armour was worked on.

The T-72 and T-90 have a Ceramics based Composite armour. They are both highly rated.

It seems you are the one who is confused. Russia does not make composite armour but rubber/titanium inserts. The K-5 ERA does not have a long shelf life as proven by Russian tanks running around Georgia with empty bricks. The K-5 was expensive enough Russian MoD decided to
make a cheaper version called Relikt.
The Relikt is much more expensive than the K-5. ERA are not supposed to have a greater shelf life than 4 or 5 years. But, it provides the best protection against KE and HE rounds.

The tanks bought from Russia will be replaced with Kanchan armour during their maintenance overhaul as Kanchan is superior to rubber inserted with titanium sheets. This has been proven on Arjun.
Come back after the Arjun has survived direct hits from RPG-29.

Kaktus does not exist in the tank inventory of Russia. Just so you know, there was no crew in this tank. No live fire tests are conducted with the crew inside for obvious reasons. They would have been incinerated. [/qote]

The Russians are broke. Everybody knows that. They could not buy a huge number of T-90s only because their funds dried up. If the mythical T-95 doe snot show up the Russians will buy more T-90Ms. Time will tell.

And it hasn't been remade for any tank type. Kaktus has been around for the last decade and nothing has come of it, it never will.
Sure.

The hits of older generation weapons are irrelevant. None of those penetrated. The penetrations were caused by RPG-29 and Kornet. 3 penetrations of RPG-29 are evident in the picture. All rounds were fired in the most heavily protected area of the tank, the front turret and glacis. Any hits to the side or rear would easily penetrate. It is standing because it is stripped of anything that can burn. HEAT rounds do not explode, they force a jet molten copper. If the crew had stayed inside, they would have been melted to cindering ash.
Repeat. None penetrated the composite armour. The crew were not in it as I already mentioned. After the tests the crew went back inside and started the firing sequence without any problems. This is proof that the T-90 was not penetrated. Had the RPG-29 penetrated the tank, the turret top would have blown up.

The RPG-29 is really deadly. That's why the T-90M comes with heavy side and top armour unlike the T-90S. The T-90M is invulnerable from the front, but not so from the side and behind. It is the same with all tanks. New shells will be needed.

Also, a point to note: Only the Americans and Russians have been busy with tank research. No one except for first timers(like India, China, SK and Japan) are trying anything big. Everybody is currently broke.
 

p2prada

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the whole drama behind this "supposed" cost was to show T-90 cost as lower as compared to Arjun and this was unravelled, the links of which i have given in the past. there was direct accusation in the article by Ajai shukla - he headlineded it - "piercing army's armour of deception!!". he also said this -
No it wasn't. This is what you would call half truth. the program costs of the Raptor is #342million. The unit costs of the Raptor is $140million. See the difference. Since the numbers of F-22 to be inducted were less in the first place, the program costs were taken into consideration rather than unit costs. Nobody cares much about unit costs, unless you plan on making 1000s of the product.

So, Ajai Shukla, another media journo, is an authority on the classified T-90.

does it ring in the ears??? they are scathing attacks!!!
There are a lot of people who scathingly attack MF Hussain and Mahatma Gandhi. Does that make them right? Come back when the CAG and opposition ministry make scathing attacks. It is only their views that matter.

result?? no denial from IA or GOI!!!
Deny to WHO? Ajai Shukla? I have never even seen the picture of the guy. What makes you think his comments are even slightly important? Why does the army even have to support their purchases. They don't fall under the normal criteria of govt offices. Their choices are absolute. They have absolute authority on what they want or don't want. Only MoD can pressure them and they have every right to say NO.

Their purchases are not liable to public scrutiny and they are not answerable to anyone. They have the right to keep us in the dark. They have the right to take all matters into their own hands under the leadership of the PM. Nobody has the right to object to their decisions except the ministry. Why do you think the Armed forces have their own Judicial system. They are supposed to be a country within a country.

does it show deception or not?? or still you want to hang on to to your imagined holy truth??
It just shows how foolish the media is and how ignorant the readers are. Go Figure!

remember a proverb - "repeat the lie a 1000 times.. it becomes the truth!!!"
Price escalations are part of the economics of a contract. Every year the price escalates by 2 to 5% based on the numbers purchased. That is true even in Civilian deals made by Beoing and Airbus. It takes inflation into account.

When the Parliament announcement was made the ministry did not reveal what they are paying for. So, how did Mr Shukla know what exactly was paid for and what not. We got the tank for cheap.

fact is still T-90's will not have many systems a modern MBT needs to have!!! that is why the cost is lower to Arjun. is that hard to understand??
It has everything necessary for us in our operational environment.

refusal to accept reality inspite of incontrovertable evidence suggests only one thing - hate and an irrational negative bias to Arjun and a blind love to T-90, unfortunatley nothing can be done in this.
I could say the opposite to you too. I have a Lt General backing my claim along with the entire DGMF. Who do you have? Ajai Shukla?

Of course, we will then come back to the original point, DGMF is corrupt and Ajai Shukla is god. =love
 

ppgj

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This is something from a retired Lt General about the Arjun. I am certain his words carry more weight than a Major or the media.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm



Too many Red lines there. The T-90 was under trial against such a tank in early 2000. So, how do you expect the IA to chose it?

DRDO fixed the problems completely only in 2008, not even in 2005. In 2005, the Arjun's engine completely failed during Winter tests. 4 engines had to be replaced well short of their lifespan, actually in just a day.

Also, the comparative trials were delayed only because the Army did not like the fact that its decision was being questioned by DRDO, a seller who is supposed to have no right in this matter and pressured by the Ministry when the T-90 deal had already finished 5 years of assembly and local production was being readied. They were just playing their political games. The 124 tanks purchased the second time was out of pressure rather than any genuine need. A 5000 tank army buying 248 tanks. Don't you see something is wrong.

Now, of course, you can say that the Arjun is a success and that Lt General Lodi is a liar and that a retired major journo has more information about tanks that the the entire army and that the existing generals are just paid by the Russians and that everything is just unfair and that blah, blah, blah.

Read between the lines. Grow up. More Importantly, swallow your pride.

The Arjun sucks. Period. The T-90s are better. Period. The Army is right. Period. DRDO is your average-Joe vegetable shop. Period. MoD are politicians. Period. Journos are comic relief. Period. Go Figure!
it is really hilarious that you quote a pak lt. general to trash Arjun!!!!!

what do you expect from them?? praises?? in any pak forum all you see is thrashing of Arjun and LCA if you did not know.

here is another piece he wrote on RAW - http://rupeenews.com/2008/07/17/lt-...i-writes-about-raws-activities-in-bangladesh/

i am sure the mods will not allow the above link because RUPEENEWS peddles anti india stories all the time.

sir,

DEFENCE JOURNAL is a pak army journal and its mouthpiece. please scrutinise before posting such stories and delete that (imo) post.

thanks.
 

p2prada

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eve though our DGMF is anti Arjun, he has never thrashed it!! infact he called it world class FYI.
It was after 2000's signing of the T-90 contract if I am not mistaken. It was a pat on the back, nothing more. it stopped all the anti-Indian army news regarding the T-90. Right now, there is not one negative news about the T-90. Something shut them up. Do you know what that is? There are no more readers. Nobody cares if Arjun is a success or failure except for a few people on the internet. Nobody is left to read their news. They have other things to write about.

Fact about Lt General Lodi's article is that he did not lie about the tank trials. He did not come up with accusations. He did not make up tall stories. He did not twist the facts. It sums up the reason why the Arjun failed to get IA's attention. He is right. It has less to do with him being Pakistani and the Arjun being Indian.

The reason why I quoted the article was because we gave him so many reasons as to bash the Arjun with. He did not even have to work hard on it. The only thing he made up is that Al Khalid is a Pakistani developed tank, which is pure horse puckey. But that is not the point of why I posted his thread anyway.

As for Pakistani forums. I don't care what they think.
 

ppgj

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No it wasn't. This is what you would call half truth. the program costs of the Raptor is #342million. The unit costs of the Raptor is $140million. See the difference. Since the numbers of F-22 to be inducted were less in the first place, the program costs were taken into consideration rather than unit costs. Nobody cares much about unit costs, unless you plan on making 1000s of the product.
irrelevant to the debate at hand.

besides i have already said 500 Arjun buy will make DRDO break even. link here -

http://frontierindia.net/five-hundred-arjun-tank-orders-needed-for-project-breakeven

So, Ajai Shukla, another media journo, is an authority on the classified T-90.
you forget he was a colonel and a tankman too in the same IA. he is a defence journo now. irrespective your casting aspersions on his credibility, wrong does not become right.

There are a lot of people who scathingly attack MF Hussain and Mahatma Gandhi. Does that make them right?
wow. great comparison!!!

by the same token let's accept pakistan saying "kargill was not planned by Pak Army" and "mumbai terrorists were not pakistanis!!! because they are just accusations!!

Come back when the CAG and opposition ministry make scathing attacks. It is only their views that matter.
more than 4 months have passed since Ajai wrote that article!! nothing except silence!!

does it say something??

besides what Ajai has reported wrt Arjun has turned out to be true (incl the recent 124 buy order)

certainly he is credible to a lot of people.

Deny to WHO? Ajai Shukla?
no. to the indian people!! you are forgetting a journalist represents the people.

I have never even seen the picture of the guy.
does it matter??

Why does the army even have to support their purchases. They don't fall under the normal criteria of govt offices. Their choices are absolute. They have absolute authority on what they want or don't want. Only MoD can pressure them and they have every right to say NO.
no body is talking about absolute authority of the army or MOD!!

it is the media's job to highlight the wrong doings of those in authority - on behalf of the people. we are a democracy!!

the trials wrt to Arjun has been "less than FAIR" to many.

Their purchases are not liable to public scrutiny and they are not answerable to anyone. They have the right to keep us in the dark. They have the right to take all matters into their own hands under the leadership of the PM. Nobody has the right to object to their decisions except the ministry.
really?? when did we turn into a "banana republic??"

Why do you think the Armed forces have their own Judicial system. They are supposed to be a country within a country.
0_0. even that system operates within the confines of india's constitution and its judicial system!!!

any citizen can file a case under that if based on sound evidence.

It just shows how foolish the media is and how ignorant the readers are. Go Figure!
that is your personal opinion. not many agree even here in the DFI.

Price escalations are part of the economics of a contract. Every year the price escalates by 2 to 5% based on the numbers purchased. That is true even in Civilian deals made by Beoing and Airbus. It takes inflation into account.
who is denying that??

we are talking about the method adopted to show T-90 in good light vis a vis Arjun (to stall and kill it) in terms of cost.

When the Parliament announcement was made the ministry did not reveal what they are paying for. So, how did Mr Shukla know what exactly was paid for and what not. We got the tank for cheap.
so how do you know what Ajai knows or does not know!! you claimed "minister's speech" which includes unit cost/ammo/extra guns/extra engines/life support.

i asked you to show me the speech. you are yet to do that. you are yet to give even a link in support of your claim.

It has everything necessary for us in our operational environment.
minus the critical systems and loads of issues still to be sorted out!! i have enumerated those in the previous posts.

I could say the opposite to you too. I have a Lt General backing my claim along with the entire DGMF. Who do you have? Ajai Shukla?
your LT GENERAL happens to be from PAKISTAN ARMY!!!!!! did not expect that from you!!!

our DGMF inspite of being anti Arjun, is on record, to have said Arjun is "world class tank!!"

i have Ajai shukla and many like him who like india to be self reliant.

Of course, we will then come back to the original point, DGMF is corrupt and Ajai Shukla is god. =love
i have never spoken about corruption. it is better if you do not put words in my mouth.

Ajai shukla is not god but an honest well meaning indian defence journo who also happens to be ex-army colonel.
 

ppgj

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It was after 2000's signing of the T-90 contract if I am not mistaken. It was a pat on the back, nothing more. it stopped all the anti-Indian army news regarding the T-90. Right now, there is not one negative news about the T-90. Something shut them up. Do you know what that is? There are no more readers.
guess that pat turned into a 124 unit order!!!

i have already listed the issues with T-90. feel free to enlighten me.

last word has not been spoken about ARJUN yet!! my friend don't rush yet.

Nobody cares if Arjun is a success or failure except for a few people on the internet. Nobody is left to read their news. They have other things to write about.
you do not care. that much is for sure.

Fact about Lt General Lodi's article is that he did not lie about the tank trials. He did not come up with accusations. He did not make up tall stories. He did not twist the facts. It sums up the reason why the Arjun failed to get IA's attention. He is right. It has less to do with him being Pakistani and the Arjun being Indian.
will you apply the same logic if an american bad mouths PAKFA?? or vice versa about F-22??

last i saw you stoutly defended PAKFA!!!!

The reason why I quoted the article was because we gave him so many reasons as to bash the Arjun with. He did not even have to work hard on it. The only thing he made up is that Al Khalid is a Pakistani developed tank, which is pure horse puckey. But that is not the point of why I posted his thread anyway.
that is not reasons for you to post it here and claim his article in support of your claim as if he was an indian lt. general!!

remember gen. shankar roy chowdhary, former COAS?? he supports Arjun tank and was instrumental in its induction in IA. and he too was a tankman. are you going to thrash him too??

As for Pakistani forums. I don't care what they think.
point was not to bring and post those rubbish here by Pak army men. i gave a link of the same guy. read it.
 

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