Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Georgian Hind]

It isn't even a T-90, it is a T-72BM. Here is the same tank with the K-5 removed.

yes this tank is T72BM even know there is no T90s in Tskhinvali Region.The got them In abkhazia.

T72BMs in tskhinvali Region

 

[ppgj]

You have asked too many useless questions. Can't answer them all.

really?? you have made tall claims based on in imaginary magical solution called - Kaktus ERA - which is not even a reality?? how useful is that??

My position stands.

as is mine.

You only want DRDO to make a profit. Nothing else. 500 Tanks mean squat. 10% of T-series. Nobody will use them. You don't want the army to profit.

ask the russians - how much profit they made on an obsolete tank even their forces are refusing!!!

I am only repeating myself. Engine failed, Transmission failed, FCS failed, Tracks failed. What more do you want?

i am repeating. any problem which occured were fixed. no issues related to T-90's are fixed yet 11 years post induction!!

Nobody uploads Parliament speeches.

i have seen speech videos on net. if you can't find it, at least text of the speech will exist. may be you can find here -

http://loksabha.nic.in/

Pittance.

Dead project.

Pak Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR FS LODI agrees!!

Not if the discussion is logical.

how logical is your imaginary KAKTUS ERA??

Murgun pointed out PAKFA will be less stealthy than the F-22. That ended the discussion.

you missed the point. if you accept pak army lt. general's view - who has never seen Arjun tank (may be some pictures) and who was not involved in its development, you should accept an american or a frenchman bad mouthing PAKFA. no debate!! no defence!!

Shoot the message not the messenger.

not if the messenger claims that "rubbish" as "backing" in support of his point.

He pointed out all the flaws that the Arjun faced in 2000.

in 2000???? Arjun was ready in 2005 - which you accept!!! it is 2010 now!!! is it relevant???

He supports the Indianness of the tank. He promises the Arjun will be better in the future. T-90 is better now though, so it was chosen.

here is his balanced article -

and users must accept Arjun as a Mark I version to be upgraded and improved during further production into a Mark II and beyond. The extension of the MBT programme into variants and derivatives based on the Arjun chassis must also begin to take shape, such as the planned "Bhim" self-propelled 155mm tracked artillery system for which earlier trials to adapt the T-72 tank chassis "on the cheap" had failed signally. (Similar ill-judged experimentation with the T-90 would be best avoided!).

In a wider national context, fielding the MBT Arjun is important for India's contemporary and future strategic leadership as well as nascent military-industrial complex. Indigenous capabilities for development and production of sophisticated capital defence equipment are vital strategic capabilities for which Arjun, Tejas, Agni and the ATV (advanced technology vessel) have to be seen in their true geopolitical perspective as statements by an India seeking a world presence in the 21st century

Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament

http://www.indian-military.org/indian-military-reports/indian-army/790-when-arjun-beat-t-90.html

Who cares? Nobody important does and that's the fact.

there are many people who do not think like you.

How innocent.

what is innocent about it??? are you saying Indian armed forces work outside india's constitution and its laws??

They make good points when they have them. It helps knowing the opinion of people we are planning to kill.

psy ops???

The rest of your posts are not worth replying to.

have a great day.

 

[p2prada]

Their is comparison of guns not shells.
Arjun is superior gun coz its length and chamber pressure is more than L44 & 2A46M..
IF you are taking abt SHELL its a different topic..

Against both L44 and 2A46M. Then yes, But, even after being a recent gun, it is still not the most powerful in operation today.

Well as you noticed that Arjun have thermal jacket ( Heat sink) and recoils springs are good enough but what counts is the gyros are way ahead of T-class, Arjun archive fire on move with precision first strike capability..

I agree. But when the trials happened between 1998 and 2000, the Arjuns even failed to fire.

Thats is a very different way u asked, though my answer is the next batch of 124 are getting ERA cover..

Sir. My point is you are comparing the Arjun of 2010 with the T-90 of 2000.

The question is why the Army chose the T-90 over the Arjun. Lt General Lodi's articles is quite right in that respect. At the time the army decided to buy a tank, the only options were Arjun and T-90. What T-90 offered in 2000 was as much as what the Arjun is offering today. The T-90 was a complete package including ERA. The T-90 never failed engine tests and firing tests were satisfactory to the army. The Arjun failed almost every test again and again. It was an unfinished tank. If it wasn't the engine, it was the transmission, it not transmission, then suspension. The problems were never ending.

Even if Arjun completed all the tests in 2008(successful trials) it was simply too late to renege on a contract signed and delivered in 2000.

What you are suggesting is the T-90 must be scrapped and replaced by the Arjun. We need to be realistic, it has to be either the T-series or the Arjun. The army cannot afford to maintain 2 different lines of supply for both the Arjun and T-90 during war time. Even the Americans struggled doing that in Iraq. Even if it is impossible, it is highly stupid to have 2 different tanks. The Soviets never made such a mistake either. Even though they had so many different tanks, their principle tank was the T-72 series. Other different tanks were similar to the T-72 anyway.

I have given u the details abt deployment of Arjun in previous post, pls go through it..
I have doubts abt T-90S price in recent days, Also many articles were provided for the reason..
No, NERA can be worked against HEAT also KE and present example is on Singaporean LEos..

We can work it out after something is out about our NERA. But I have my apprehensions against it facing off KE charges as compared to ERA. HEAT and KE charges are the biggest threat to our tanks.

Can u give my Armour penetration of RPG-29?

It depends on the armour. If you are talking about the T-72, it may be available as open source. If you are talking about T-90 or Arjun then we will not find that info on the internet.

 

[p2prada]

ask the russians - how much profit they made on an obsolete tank even their forces are refusing!!!

They did not refuse the tank. They are broke. They are not even able to induct the Su-30MKI derivatives. They are debating if the Du-35BM is a good idea too. They have no money to do anything big any more.


It is the same with the Brahmos. They have no new ships, so fitting the brahmos on them is out of their budget.

i am repeating. any problem which occured were fixed. no issues related to T-90's are fixed yet 11 years post induction!!

All issues related to T-90 were fixed back in 2002. That's when we started assembling tanks. Only air conditioners are to be fit and it is a simple task that can be handled during production.

i have seen speech videos on net. if you can't find it, at least text of the speech will exist. may be you can find here -

LOL. You still don't understand. You are being a kid. Nobody ever goes into detail, only T-90 price was mentioned and they are program costs as every layman should know.

you missed the point. if you accept pak army lt. general's view - who has never seen Arjun tank (may be some pictures) and who was not involved in its development, you should accept an american or a frenchman bad mouthing PAKFA. no debate!! no defence!!

Oh! Don't underestimate their information gathering capabilities.

not if the messenger claims that "rubbish" as "backing" in support of his point.

Shoot the message.

in 2000???? Arjun was ready in 2005 - which you accept!!! it is 2010 now!!! is it relevant???

Contract was signed in 2000. ==ev++vil++

here is his balanced article -

"Mark I version to be upgraded and improved"

Mark I was not fit for induction in 2000.

nascent military-industrial complex

Mark II has been given the green light. What are you complaining about?

I don't want to nitpick, but I find this hilarious:

Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament

People tend to sway towards the national international gimmick when they are sitting there. I still remember Deve Gowda vociferously supporting the T-72 upgrades being given to the Russians. For some reason he knew a lot about the Tanks.

there are many people who do not think like you.

It is unfortunate that their opinions don't matter.

what is innocent about it??? are you saying Indian armed forces work outside india's constitution and its laws??

Where do I begin? Oh! Wait it is too complex and I will not be getting into it anyway.

BTW, you have heard of so many scams, how many generals were convicted in a civilian court. None. They were all tried in military courts.

" The right of the individuals enshrined in the Indian Constitution is not reflected in the laws that govern the personnel of the armed forces."


Arjun is a great tanks. It is world class. It is merely late. Had it been ready by 2000, then I would have joined you in criticizing the army's decision. But from where I see it the T-90 came with more in lesser time. That's all.

 

[ppgj]

They did not refuse the tank. They are broke.

money is one part of the story. fact remains the russian army refuses the tanks which are obsolete according to them. i have already given a link.

All issues related to T-90 were fixed back in 2002.

and can you enlighten us?? and these are necessary normal issues an MBT is supposed to have. specifically these -

1. when the underpowered engine is going to be replaced??

2. when will T-90 have APU??

3. when will the thermals issue be resolved?? (this is linked to the points # 1 and 2).

4. when will the APS will be on it??

and what will be the unit cost post these??

That's when we started assembling tanks.

can you confirm us all or any of the above points have been resolved??

Only air conditioners are to be fit and it is a simple task that can be handled during production.

simple task?? as Kunal Biswas pointed out there is hardly any space for even the crew to operate!!! this has been alluded to by many including Mr. Prasun sen Gupta.

if T-90 was supposed to draw power from the already underpowered 840 hp engine, what will be the situation with its basic mobility and maneurability??

and an absence of APU only compounds the problem!! furthermore i don't have to tell the importance of APU in terms of IR signature and silent mode operation and saving of fuel!!

LOL. You still don't understand. You are being a kid. Nobody ever goes into detail, only T-90 price was mentioned and they are program costs as every layman should know.

very revealing indeed.

Shoot the message.

i would have if you had only posted the article. you took that as some sort of "backing" to support your view without even realising that the lt. general was a pakistan army man and "defence journal" is the pak army's mouthpiece!! and check what you wrote after that irrelevant "rubbish" link??

both the message and the messenger were at fault.

Contract was signed in 2000. ==ev++vil++

yes but with all the issues mentioned above still unresolved - even now!!! ==ev++vil++

Mark I was not fit for induction in 2000.

it only needed active participation from the IA to become a reality. unfortunate the then and present DGMF's have not thought like the former COAS gen. shankar roy chowdhary.

Mark II has been given the green light. What are you complaining about?

no complaints wrt this. hope they will see it to its logical conclusion by actively participating with the developers.

I don't want to nitpick, but I find this hilarious:

People tend to sway towards the national international gimmick when they are sitting there. I still remember Deve Gowda vociferously supporting the T-72 upgrades being given to the Russians. For some reason he knew a lot about the Tanks.

and you forget that an indian PM has a battery of advisers to guide him. he does not have to be a military expert.

It is unfortunate that their opinions don't matter.

they do!! the effect is felt over a period of time.

Where do I begin? Oh! Wait it is too complex and I will not be getting into it anyway.

BTW, you have heard of so many scams, how many generals were convicted in a civilian court. None. They were all tried in military courts.

" The right of the individuals enshrined in the Indian Constitution is not reflected in the laws that govern the personnel of the armed forces."

just as many poilticians escape from corruption and even murder!! democracy sir!!

still they have to operate within india's judicial system and constitution. no body is above law in theory (though practice is a different point for debate).

Arjun is a great tanks. It is world class. It is merely late. Had it been ready by 2000, then I would have joined you in criticizing the army's decision. But from where I see it the T-90 came with more in lesser time. That's all.

answered above.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

1. when the underpowered engine is going to be replaced??

I think it already has been replaced it was chosen by our MOD and IA over 840 HP morover the tank is significantly lighter so it does not need a powerful engine as it already has excellent power to weight ratio

2. when will T-90 have APU??

There will be RFP for it, from other vendors as it was not opted with the russians as there APU was not that good it will be intgrated with the Tank once it is chosen the offer is gathering dust in some babu's table now awaiting approval

3. when will the thermals issue be resolved?? (this is linked to the points # 1 and 2).

It already had thermals from thales

4. when will the APS will be on it??

As pointed before a new RFP will be issued and integrated awaiting approval from MOD


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/5T90.pdf

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/

 

[p2prada]

money is one part of the story. fact remains the russian army refuses the tanks which are obsolete according to them. i have already given a link.

They are broke. They have enough tanks as it is and are waiting for some new generation tank. As of today the T-90 is Russia's best tank.

and can you enlighten us?? and these are necessary normal issues an MBT is supposed to have. specifically these -

1. when the underpowered engine is going to be replaced??

Replaced? They are already running with 1000hp engines and will be uprated to 1250 in the future. I don't know why you are stuck with an engine that's not been purchased by India. Our tanks have the 1000Hp V-92 and will have the 1250 HP V-96 later.

2. when will T-90 have APU??

It was never in the IA's requirement for an APU until they decided to have an Air Conditioner. IA will be getting an environment control system with an APU from DRDO.

4. when will the APS will be on it??

Much sooner than DRDO will have on the Arjun.

Arjun's current costs of 17 Crores is without BMS, no APS, no ERA and an older generation FCS compared to the Catherine. Even the Arjun needs AC and will get it as the Mk2 is made.

and what will be the unit cost post these??

Much less compared to Arjun. It is logic. Heavy tank, medium tank difference etc.

can you confirm us all or any of the above points have been resolved??

You are comparing teething problems to failed engines and FCS.

simple task?? as Kunal Biswas pointed out there is hardly any space for even the crew to operate!!! this has been alluded to by many including Mr. Prasun sen Gupta.

if T-90 was supposed to draw power from the already underpowered 840 hp engine, what will be the situation with its basic mobility and maneurability??

and an absence of APU only compounds the problem!! furthermore i don't have to tell the importance of APU in terms of IR signature and silent mode operation and saving of fuel!!

Why are you stuck at small things. APU was never in Army's requirement. 840HP engines are not in Indian tanks. AC task is DRDO's problem now along with arming it with Kanchan.

i would have if you had only posted the article. you took that as some sort of "backing" to support your view without even realising that the lt. general was a pakistan army man and "defence journal" is the pak army's mouthpiece!! and check what you wrote after that irrelevant "rubbish" link??

So, that means you are not in a position to shoot the message. Only taking jibes at the messenger.

both the message and the messenger were at fault.

Then tell me what is the reason why the T-90 was chosen compared to the Arjun. Figure it out and let me know.

yes but with all the issues mentioned above still unresolved - even now!!! ==ev++vil++

Indigenous production has started only now. Give it some time and you will know yourself.

It only needed active participation from the IA to become a reality. unfortunate the then and present DGMF's have not thought like the former COAS gen. shankar roy chowdhary.

BS. DRDO took 16 years just to come up with a Trial tank that was not even to the army's specifications. The Army asked for a 50 ton tank and they got a tank heavily overweight. Army did participate and they were disappointed. It does not matter what gen Chowdhary thought. They don't work according to whims and fancies of one man. Everything follows a procedure. The Arjun should have cleared all tests in 1999 instead of 2008. Mass production should have started in 2002-03. At the rate Arjun was progressing, any General will be frustrated. T-90 was the obvious choice when the Pakistanis bought the T-80s from Ukraine.

The Arjun in 2000 was a piece of junk that was not even capable of moving on its own without needing an engine replacement and overhaul every few kilometres. It has nothing to do with how much the Arjun has evolved since then.

and you forget that an indian PM has a battery of advisers to guide him. he does not have to be a military expert.

This was when he was the opposition MP and Not when he was the PM. When he was PM T-72s were half way through the manufacturing contract. He was helping out some one he knows by getting the Russians a T-72 upgrade deal in 1999.

they do!! the effect is felt over a period of time.

Nope. It is like saying "told you so" AFTER something happens. Until then it is just a lot of noise. It is a lot of noise after it too.

just as many poilticians escape from corruption and even murder!! democracy sir!!
still they have to operate within india's judicial system and constitution. no body is above law in theory (though practice is a different point for debate).

Still innocent.

We have 2 laws. One for civilians and one for military. The Military also have the Military Police. If a military personnel is caught by the Civilian police, he is handed over to the Military police. These are things you need to learn about your country.

It means whatever they buy is of no consequence to civilians. Armed Forces and intelligence are exempted from RTI. You have no say in what they say or do during military procurement. They have absolute right. You can cry about it all you want, but it will not change anything. Also, if you do cry about it, they don't have to come out and back up their decisions. As long as you are not a MP, or a MoD or the president, you are a Nobody as far as the Military is concerned, this includes retired officers. Even in service personnel can be ostracised if their opinion differs from general view as we have seen from USAF comments against Col Ternof. Same rules everywhere. It is not pretty, but its life.

 

[Armand2REP]

Russia is not developing a 1250hp engine. There was talk of a 1200hp, but was cancelled with Objekt 195. Russian generals are not happy with the primitive state of their engine technology, expect them to turn to Germany.

 

[ppgj]

I think it already has been replaced it was chosen by our MOD and IA over 840 HP morover

can you throw more light on this?? any source for that??

the tank is significantly lighter so it does not need a powerful engine as it already has excellent power to weight ratio

T-90 is 46.5 tons.

let's compare how the power to weight ratios workout for T-90, Arjun and T-80UD (T-84) of pakistan.

T-90.....................@846 hp - p/w ratio 18.20

.............................@910 hp - p/w ratio 19.57

this is based on this "case study" article by college of defence management. here -

http://cdm.ap.nic.in/casestudies/casevol362/Induction of tank T90s.pdf

page 23 and point # 4.

Arjun is 58.5 tons.

Arjun.....................@1400 hp - p/w ratio 23.93

T-84 or uprated T-80 UD pakistan has is 48 tons. source - http://www.enemyforces.net/tanks/t84.htm

T-84......................@1200 hp - p/w ratio of 25.

a tank being lighter compared to others does not amount to anything if it does not have any power to operate itself.

There will be RFP for it, from other vendors as it was not opted with the russians as there APU was not that good it will be intgrated with the Tank once it is chosen the offer is gathering dust in some babu's table now awaiting approval

when???

It already had thermals from thales

everyone knows it has catherine thermals. point is it fries in indian heat which is why T-90 needs an AC for it's electronics. in the absence of an APU and an underpowered engine where this power going to come from?? besides space constraints due to its obsolete design does not allow systems to be put in as per many people!!!

As pointed before a new RFP will be issued and integrated awaiting approval from MOD

so far this has been only speculation. there was news of LEDS 150 from SAAB. nothing is known as of now.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/5T90.pdf

your FAS.ORG link is 13 years old (sept - oct 1997). there is nothing in it.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Even the Arjun needs AC and will get it as the Mk2 is made.

From where this piece of news came? BTW will you like to care to specify what is making AC a necessary requirement in MBT Arjun? Last i heard that Arjun's all systems were working fantastically in burning Indian dessert where something with was crying for 'Vatanakulit Yantra'.

 

[Armand2REP]

in the absence of an APU and an underpowered engine where this power going to come from??

Hard to imagine a modern tank not having an APU. If you want to save fuel it means you have to turn EVERYTHING OFF.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Against both L44 and 2A46M. Then yes, But, even after being a recent gun, it is still not the most powerful in operation today.

Yes, I consider L55 is next powerful gun..

I agree. But when the trials happened between 1998 and 2000, the Arjuns even failed to fire.

Yes, And thats why in 2000 we bought T-90s

Sir. My point is you are comparing the Arjun of 2010 with the T-90 of 2000.

You asked me abt ERA and my answer was the next batch, I consider Arjun have superior Armor ( Excluding ERA )
T-90 have superior Armour compare to T-80UDs, T-72M1 and other T- TANKS, But compare to Arjun without ERA, It lacks behind..
One more important point is this that K-5 era can deflect a single round but not the second round on the same spot, With K-5 T-90 can withstand any round but the problem is after first hit it ERA cannot protect the tank on the spot again from second round..

The question is why the Army chose the T-90 over the Arjun. Lt General Lodi's articles is quite right in that respect. At the time the army decided to buy a tank, the only options were Arjun and T-90. What T-90 offered in 2000 was as much as what the Arjun is offering today. The T-90 was a complete package including ERA. The T-90 never failed engine tests and firing tests were satisfactory to the army. The Arjun failed almost every test again and again. It was an unfinished tank. If it wasn't the engine, it was the transmission, it not transmission, then suspension. The problems were never ending.

It was 2000 you r taking abt, Initially IA bought the tanks to counter T-80UDs, But after the purchase IA decide to replace all T-72 with T-90 ( According to 2000-2002 price ), And now today we see T-90 totally replacing old T-72s, Arjun-2005 is an Indian tank and as i have given you all the specifications Arjun is superior tank with out any doubt, It is best right now and its induction would increase after the delivery of 1000 T-90s..

What you are suggesting is the T-90 must be scrapped and replaced by the Arjun. We need to be realistic, it has to be either the T-series or the Arjun. The army cannot afford to maintain 2 different lines of supply for both the Arjun and T-90 during war time. Even the Americans struggled doing that in Iraq. Even if it is impossible, it is highly stupid to have 2 different tanks. The Soviets never made such a mistake either. Even though they had so many different tanks, their principle tank was the T-72 series. Other different tanks were similar to the T-72 anyway.

IA dont have the problem we used to have multiple tanks in Armored cores ( 1971,65 even in 99 )..
Besides IA is going to have Arjun mk-1 & T-90S/M also +300 light tanks ( More Future order is possible as it meant to replace T-55s )..

We can work it out after something is out about our NERA. But I have my apprehensions against it facing off KE charges as compared to ERA. HEAT and KE charges are the biggest threat to our tanks.

NERA is powerful enough to stop KE and HEAT, Regarding KE here a nice pic, also ours Arjun MBT will have similar layout as it based on leo deign..

The MBT evolution and LE0A4 evolution packages from Rheinmetall employ heavily Composite and NERA tech, The plates have multiple spaced layers to avoid KE penetration..

It depends on the armour. If you are talking about the T-72, it may be available as open source. If you are talking about T-90 or Arjun then we will not find that info on the internet.

I was asking abt RPG-29 penetration data?
Regarding Arjun & T-90 Armour data, I have already given you in my previous posts..

 

[Rahul Singh]

Hard to imagine a modern tank not having an APU. If you want to save fuel it means you have to turn EVERYTHING OFF.

That means reduced endurance and blowing away acoustic stealth during ambush. A tactical disadvantage if you will.

 

[ppgj]

They are broke. They have enough tanks as it is and are waiting for some new generation tank.

new generation tank??? T-95 is cancelled!!! no surprise if they want to import "armour plates" from germany (overhearings at forums) IMO. will not surprise me either if they have to import "engines" too as Armand pointed out.

As of today the T-90 is Russia's best tank.

does not surprise when russian army is refusing!!!

Replaced? They are already running with 1000hp engines and will be uprated to 1250 in the future. I don't know why you are stuck with an engine that's not been purchased by India. Our tanks have the 1000Hp V-92 and will have the 1250 HP V-96 later.

it would be nice if you can go thro' various links given even if it was not answered to you!!

check this - http://cdm.ap.nic.in/casestudies/casevol362/Induction of tank T90s.pdf

page 23. point # 4.

sir, for a claim i make, i have the habit of backing it up!! you have been making many claims on this thread without backing them up!!! just playing around with words.

and i request you again to go thro' the links given by various members here. that would be much appreciated.

It was never in the IA's requirement for an APU until they decided to have an Air Conditioner.

never in IA's requirement??? they ask for moon when it comes to drdo???

IA will be getting an environment control system with an APU from DRDO.

from DRDO?? this is really getting hillarious!!!! good going.

Much sooner than DRDO will have on the Arjun.

do you know even that will need "power??" are you going to tag a generator along with T-90's??

Arjun's current costs of 17 Crores is without BMS, no APS, no ERA and an older generation FCS compared to the Catherine. Even the Arjun needs AC and will get it as the Mk2 is made.

you said earlier in your posts that Arjun is a "museum piece" and it wont be used in a war!!!. how does it matter what it has or not???

Much less compared to Arjun. It is logic. Heavy tank, medium tank difference etc.

alice in wonderland......

You are comparing teething problems to failed engines and FCS.

statement of the millenium!!!

they are the critical systems that make a MBT!!! need i say more???

Why are you stuck at small things. APU was never in Army's requirement. 840HP engines are not in Indian tanks.

small things?? are you serious?? or is that supposed to be a joke??? regards engine, go thro' for once the link above.

AC task is DRDO's problem now along with arming it with Kanchan.

again DRDO!!! god, is T-90 russian??? or a DRDO product?? where is "life cycle support" please?? anybody here??

So, that means you are not in a position to shoot the message. Only taking jibes at the messenger.

i called the article a "rubbish". didn't i??

Then tell me what is the reason why the T-90 was chosen compared to the Arjun. Figure it out and let me know.

that was the reason for Ajai Shukla article!!! there is nothing to figure out except your persistent portrayal of the "invincibility" of T-90 inspite of the issues i have listed!!

Indigenous production has started only now. Give it some time and you will know yourself.

wow. why those yardsticks are not allowed for Arjun??? a superior design with a great future as against an obsolete design with no future!!!

BS. DRDO took 16 years just to come up with a Trial tank that was not even to the army's specifications. The Army asked for a 50 ton tank and they got a tank heavily overweight. Army did participate and they were disappointed. It does not matter what gen Chowdhary thought. They don't work according to whims and fancies of one man. Everything follows a procedure. The Arjun should have cleared all tests in 1999 instead of 2008. Mass production should have started in 2002-03. At the rate Arjun was progressing, any General will be frustrated.

you seriously need to revisit the army's GSQR!!!

and FYI gen. shankar roy chowdhary was former COAS!! in whose time Arjun was inducted!!! have a little more faith in him than a pakistani LT. GENERAL LODI!!!!

T-90 was the obvious choice when the Pakistanis bought the T-80s from Ukraine.

even if i understand the first buy, it still does not explain 2nd buy of 347 tanks in dec 2007 when Arjun proved itself in 2005 which even you accept.

The Arjun in 2000 was a piece of junk that was not even capable of moving on its own without needing an engine replacement and overhaul every few kilometres. It has nothing to do with how much the Arjun has evolved since then.

compare it to your favourute T-90 which was inducted "based on trials in Russia!!!". link here -

http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

This was when he was the opposition MP and Not when he was the PM. When he was PM T-72s were half way through the manufacturing contract. He was helping out some one he knows by getting the Russians a T-72 upgrade deal in 1999.

how relevant it is if he was in the opposition??? even if he spoke - what is your problem?? MP's raise lot of points which may be relevant but they may know nothing of it!! what is surprising here??

Nope. It is like saying "told you so" AFTER something happens. Until then it is just a lot of noise. It is a lot of noise after it too.

so be it. if you anyway think the "opinion" does not count, what is the big deal???

Still innocent.

We have 2 laws. One for civilians and one for military. The Military also have the Military Police. If a military personnel is caught by the Civilian police, he is handed over to the Military police. These are things you need to learn about your country.

It means whatever they buy is of no consequence to civilians. Armed Forces and intelligence are exempted from RTI. You have no say in what they say or do during military procurement. They have absolute right. You can cry about it all you want, but it will not change anything. Also, if you do cry about it, they don't have to come out and back up their decisions. As long as you are not a MP, or a MoD or the president, you are a Nobody as far as the Military is concerned, this includes retired officers. Even in service personnel can be ostracised if their opinion differs from general view as we have seen from USAF comments against Col Ternof. Same rules everywhere. It is not pretty, but its life.

disagree.

 

[Armand2REP]

That means reduced endurance and blowing away acoustic stealth during ambush. A tactical disadvantage if you will.

It also means you will be blind accept for what you carry with you.

 

[p2prada]

Russia is not developing a 1250hp engine. There was talk of a 1200hp, but was cancelled with Objekt 195. Russian generals are not happy with the primitive state of their engine technology, expect them to turn to Germany.

Russia is uprating existing V-92 to V-96. There is no entirely new engine development program for the T-90.

Hard to imagine a modern tank not having an APU. If you want to save fuel it means you have to turn EVERYTHING OFF.

The T-90's gas mileage is much higher compared to Heavy MBTs. Heavy MBTs only give a realistic 200-300km at full tank while the T-90 gives between 450-550km.

APU only decreases the range of the tank by drinking more fuel while active.

Most importantly, it is the way the T-90 is used compared to Heavy MBTs. Heavy MBTs can be dug in and fight, including in the Hunter Killer mode. T-90s use their low profile and smoke to cover their advances and can use their hunter killer ability while on the move. Different strategies need different equipment.

Simply because one tank has something does not mean all tanks must have the same thing.

Yes, And thats why in 2000 we bought T-90s

That's the point I am trying to make. You are trying to give life to a dead project by saying "Now Lets renegotiate the contract."

Sir, you have a lot of knowledge in how the military works. Lets assume the Army buys the 500 Arjuns. Can you realistically tell me if the army can afford to open a second logistics supply chain upto, say Karachi along with the existing T series supply chain? Heck the Americans are struggling doing that for the M1 in Iraq and the situation there is nothing compared to how Pakistan will be if we invade.

Forcing the army to buy a tank will only be like flogging the dead horse.

You asked me abt ERA and my answer was the next batch, I consider Arjun have superior Armor ( Excluding ERA )
T-90 have superior Armour compare to T-80UDs, T-72M1 and other T- TANKS, But compare to Arjun without ERA, It lacks behind..

In terms of sheer weight the Arjun will beat the T-90 in protection. In composition of the armour it may not be the same. We will obviously need a modified Kanchan for the T-90. You can expect the T-90 Kanchan to be superior in composition and protection per kg in comparison to the existing kanchan.

Also, considering the Arjun is late, it no longer matters. The problem is we have only been reading about Arjun's development. We have heard Zilch about the T-90 development. This lack of news increases criticism of the project.

One more important point is this that K-5 era can deflect a single round but not the second round on the same spot, With K-5 T-90 can withstand any round but the problem is after first hit it ERA cannot protect the tank on the spot again from second round.. [/qote]

The chances of that occuring is very low. The probability of a tank round hitting the same tile again is very very small. Tank Gun accuracy is not as good as that.

It was 2000 you r taking abt, Initially IA bought the tanks to counter T-80UDs, But after the purchase IA decide to replace all T-72 with T-90 ( According to 2000-2002 price ), And now today we see T-90 totally replacing old T-72s, Arjun-2005 is an Indian tank and as i have given you all the specifications Arjun is superior tank with out any doubt, It is best right now and its induction would increase after the delivery of 1000 T-90s..

I would prefer the induction of the Mk2 rather than the current one. The Mk1 offers nothing extraordinary in capability to afford changes in infrastructure and supply.

IA dont have the problem we used to have multiple tanks in Armored cores ( 1971,65 even in 99 )..
Besides IA is going to have Arjun mk-1 & T-90S/M also +300 light tanks ( More Future order is possible as it meant to replace T-55s )..

Those 300 light tanks are fine. They are primarily defensive and will not be used against Pakistani heavy armour.

Arjun are too few in number. 250:5000 is a huge ratio. Also, times have changed. Earlier, the tanks had nothing. Only a chassis, engine, gun, ammo and fuel in a big box. The modern tank isn't like what it was in the 70s and 80s. It is expensive and maintenance intensive. Maintaining supply chains for multiple parts and ammo is no longer an easy task.

NERA is powerful enough to stop KE and HEAT, Regarding KE here a nice pic, also ours Arjun MBT will have similar layout as it based on leo deign..
The MBT evolution and LE0A4 evolution packages from Rheinmetall employ heavily Composite and NERA tech, The plates have multiple spaced layers to avoid KE penetration..

Sorry. I still believe the ERA offers better protection against all types of hollow charges compared to NERA. NERA's main advantages over the ERA is the multiple hits capability and light weight.

I was asking abt RPG-29 penetration data?
Regarding Arjun & T-90 Armour data, I have already given you in my previous posts..

RPG is said to go through 600mm of composite armour after breaking the ERA. Penetration figures vary from tank to tank. Mostly kept a secret.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That's the point I am trying to make. You are trying to give life to a dead project by saying "Now Lets renegotiate the contract."

DEAD!
No its not its more alive since 2005, Actually Arjun is way more capable than T-90 in almost all aspect as i proved before, Army also consider Arjun to be better MBT!

Sir, you have a lot of knowledge in how the military works. Lets assume the Army buys the 500 Arjuns. Can you realistically tell me if the army can afford to open a second logistics supply chain upto, say Karachi along with the existing T series supply chain? .

As i have mentioned before we already operating three different type of logistic supports for three different tanks, namely T-55/72/90 this also include BMPs, In coming days we will get-rid of T-55 and 72, besides Arjun logistics are no different from T-90s on ground, Also we can maintain the logistic easily as we are doing now..

Besides T-72 don't even share the same engine oil with T-90..

Forcing the army to buy a tank will only be like flogging the dead horse.

No body forced actually, Its media who liked to shout unnecessarily, IA agreed that Arjun is good and will be induced and media reported Arjun is forced into service..
further their were few problems in Tank back in 2000 and Army itself mentioned that it will be rectified with DRDO cooperation and here our Home media call our own project FAIL, Its the media language what people talk mostly and mostly it is very wrong..

In terms of sheer weight the Arjun will beat the T-90 in protection. In composition of the armour it may not be the same. We will obviously need a modified Kanchan for the T-90. You can expect the T-90 Kanchan to be superior in composition and protection per kg in comparison to the existing kanchan.

Their is no upgraded Kanchan after 2002, The same module in Arjun will be implement on T-90S/M, Still compare to Arjun it will have less thickness coz of its deign and hence less protection....
The application of Kanchan is done to reduce the cost of T-90S/M for mass production within the country..

The chances of that occuring is very low. The probability of a tank round hitting the same tile again is very very small. Tank Gun accuracy is not as good as that.

It highly possible coz of K-5 size which is way big than normal ERA tiles, It is obvious that opponent tanks will hit the same place twice, The chances of hitting that place increase within 1500-1000m for T-80UDs..

I would prefer the induction of the Mk2 rather than the current one. The Mk1 offers nothing extraordinary in capability to afford changes in infrastructure and supply.

MK2 will be induce in small no at initial stage, But Arjun capability increase with addition of ERA and it is suppose to replace T-90S ( First batch with rounded turret in 2017-20 )

Those 300 light tanks are fine. They are primarily defensive and will not be used against Pakistani heavy armour.

Yes, they are replacement for T-55 in both northern and eastern sector..

Arjun are too few in number. 250:5000 is a huge ratio. Also, times have changed. Earlier, the tanks had nothing. Only a chassis, engine, gun, ammo and fuel in a big box. The modern tank isn't like what it was in the 70s and 80s. It is expensive and maintenance intensive. Maintaining supply chains for multiple parts and ammo is no longer an easy task.

Dont count T-72s or 55s also the first 300 T-90s..

 

[Armand2REP]

Russia is uprating existing V-92 to V-96. There is no entirely new engine development program for the T-90.

Why would Russia uprate an engine design they view as obsolete? Popovkin said it was obsolete and now he has been promoted to deputy defence minister. Medvedev is traveling across Europe and the US securing defence technology. There will be no uprated engine based on old designs, they want Western engines.

The T-90's gas mileage is much higher compared to Heavy MBTs. Heavy MBTs only give a realistic 200-300km at full tank while the T-90 gives between 450-550km.

Yet the Leclerc can travel 500km, it must not be a heavy MBT.

APU only decreases the range of the tank by drinking more fuel while active.

Most importantly, it is the way the T-90 is used compared to Heavy MBTs. Heavy MBTs can be dug in and fight, including in the Hunter Killer mode. T-90s use their low profile and smoke to cover their advances and can use their hunter killer ability while on the move. Different strategies need different equipment.

Yet Indian T-90s lack APUs while the Arjun has one, go figure.

Simply because one tank has something does not mean all tanks must have the same thing.

Tanks need APUs, it is that simple. It is not 1941 when tanks didn't have electronics.

 

[JAISWAL]

why russia had only buy 350 or so of t-90 but we bought about 1500 of them neglectin arjun ? plz enlighten me.

 

[Armand2REP]

why russia had only buy 350 or so of t-90 but we bought about 1500 of them neglectin arjun ? plz enlighten me.

Because Russian government was waiting to see if the industry could make modern armour technology. Now they are tired of waiting and turning to Europe.