Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

MTU doesn't make old engines, whatever the date of the initial design, they are made to modern standards.

* Highest power concentration with regard to weight and volume
* Fulfills MIL standards such as "nuclear hardening" and "electromagnetic shielding"
* Latest technology, such as starter generators and CAN bus communication
* Low fuel and oil consumption due to use of modern engine management systems and common rail injection systems

Russian engines do not have this.

All that's just talk without numbers to show for. Nuclear hardening and EM shielding exist on the T-90s too.

Who is talking about domestic engines? I am talking about German MTUs, the premier exporter of MBT engines.

Germans did not give us their best engine because of sanctions. Even the one they provided was short of what DRDO wanted. DRDO was looking for a 1500HP engine and that was denied. Also, the torque on the Arjun's engine was underpowered. In deserts the T-90s power dropped by 10-15% based on the test carried out while the German engines power output dropped by 100%. The engines failed, transmission fluids leaked with the slightest jerk. It took the Germans and the DRDO scientists 10 years to make the engine fit for Indian conditions.

Till date, over the last 10 years, only one T-90 engine failed because of bad quality. Arjun's engine has been changed by the dozens in tests. Yes, I am talking about the same German engines.

Everything German on the tank failed and has been failing for the last 12-15 years until 2008.

Leclercs have been tropicalised to operate in the deserts of the Arab peninsula and the jungles of Africa, it can handle India. The Arjun has less fuel consumption per KwH than the T-90 by a large margin. Stick the V-92 in the Arjun and it won't go half as fast or half as far.

Read above. Epic Fail.

Using a Catherine might give you the ability to see the target first, but a superior FCS allows you to hit the other target first. Arjun would win a gun duel with a T-90, Al-Khalid, or a Type 99.

What are you talking about? The effective range of the Refleks missile is 5 km, which is as good as the LAHAT. The Catherine gives us first look first kill capability in any weather condition against even the Arjun, let alone the Pak MBTs. The Pak Al Khalid is more protected against ATGM s than the Arjun is too. Even the M1A2 is useless when fighting ATGMs. ERA makes the difference.

The Pakistani armour's primary armament is their series of Refleks and AT-11s. Their secondary armament consists of what every body knows, tank shells. The Pakistanis depend on digging in, and shoot with ATGMs while our tanks are trying to cross the desert and across canals. The Arjun's speed and agility is a fail compared to T-90s ability to make quick a dash across deserts. The T-90s low profile further provides better protection against the Pakistani armour.

But you don't make it and Russia won't sell it. Getting the picture yet?

FAIL. All our T-90s are equipped with ERA. As you may have read Kunal Biswas sirs post, he has seen them personally. So, FAIL.

Also, why is it so hard for you to not figure out by looking at our T-90 tanks with Indian soldiers around. All T-90s have their ERA in them if you just figure out where to look at.

According to the information I have, T-90 does not and will not have an APU in the foreseeable future. The T-72 is a different upgrade. The T-90's electronics work off the battery which is charged by the engine. If the engine don't run, you don't have power, at least only what the battery can provide.

The T-90s do come with a 1KW APU. Russians APUs have been in existence since the time T-55s were used. The T-90 comes with a standard 1 KW APU.

Most of the land based BSRs in use today are for artillery spotting, not tracking troop movements and that is definitely the case in S. Asia. India has a bunch of short ranged BSRs but the tactical advantage is minimal. It really isn't the world of BSRs in Pakistan or China.

I don't know about Pakistan or China. But,

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=48

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=55

We have been using them for years now, all Israeli. We are also exporting the radars. These ranges are well above a tanks firing range.

Phalcon as a BSR, not really...

Sorry to burst your bubble. But they do. The Phalcon is capable of picking up a man on its screens at any time.

Eg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-8_Joint_STARS
JSTARS is an ancient platform. The Phalcon is the most advanced operational battlefield surveillance radar flying to date.

Any radar with a capable SAR is able to pick up information from the ground. AESA makes things even more efficient. The Phalcon is capable of picking up a crawling man as well as a stationary tank from stand off distances. It has the processing power to do just that effectively.

 

[bhramos]

Tank Protection Systems. T-90 (English sub)


nice video, with lot of info about Active tank protection systems.

 

[p2prada]

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2...our-dynamics-like-never-before.htm#contentTop

It can watch ground troop movements with an eagle eye. It is kitted with an IFF (Identification of Friend or Foe) suite, as the name suggests, to differentiate between own and enemy forces. And it eavesdrops too.

For instance, if the enemy launches an air raid or an armoured foray, the AWACS will espy it and transmit that piece of information to the field commanders, real time, who then can launch fighters from the nearest airbases to shoot down the enemy aircraft or pulverise the enemy armour, thus boosting our defensive capability.

 

[Agantrope]

The T-90s do come with a 1KW APU. Russians APUs have been in existence since the time T-55s were used. The T-90 comes with a standard 1 KW APU.

1 KW ah.... very well, even in my computer consumes around 500W in full load, leave alone the electronics in it, 1KW is still under powered and you going over the limits to justifying that.

I am not sure of the arjun's APU, may be SAYAREAKD help in this

 

[p2prada]

Great video there Brahmos;

Armand that video explains the T-90s ERA protection system at 7:20. Check it out.

Incredible, the Drozd and Arena were tested with a crew inside a moving tank; or maybe it was pushed remotely.

 

[p2prada]

1 KW ah.... very well, even in my computer consumes around 500W in full load, leave alone the electronics in it, 1KW is still under powered and you going over the limits to justifying that.

Tank electronics use lesser power comparatively. We cannot compare it to modern day computers. The Cray XT-5 needs 40KW of power which is like the power required to run the entire Phalcon AWACS.

1 KW is enough to run the avionics on an aircraft minus the Radar and Jammer. So, it is plenty for tank electronics.

The Arjun's APU runs at turret loads. So, the tank requires a very high load APU. You can even use a car engine for it. The displacement of the APU is very low compared to the main engine and can stay powered for long periods of time.

APUs on ALL MBTs are located externally while the T-90s APU is within the armour. It is an advantage to have APU. But, compared to the advantages of T-90 an APU is not a necessity. The Army never asked for APU on the Arjun anyway. It is an added perk.

 

[sayareakd]

1 KW ah.... very well, even in my computer consumes around 500W in full load, leave alone the electronics in it, 1KW is still under powered and you going over the limits to justifying that.

I am not sure of the arjun's APU, may be SAYAREAKD help in this

sri no APU in T 90S to save cost it was done, Russians asked for more money for APU. BTW Arjun tank has APU for silent and stealth operation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sorry Sir. I beg to differ. This is the biggest problem for any tank regiment. Tanks have nearly 16000 parts. More than 4000 parts are under constant threat of decaying due wear and tear. In our weather conditions the materials wear and tear simply increases. The T-72 and T-90 have common parts and looks like the T-72s may get the same engine as the T-90s. Our entire policy on T-72 upgrade program is not fully implemented.

Then so?!?!
What u are saying?

250 tanks have limited infrastructure.

Limited?
No, 250 is a huge no and it become more important when its abt heavy vehicles..

Firstly, we are not even sure if the light tanks requirement will materialize.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/11870-New-Polish-Indo-light-tank..

Also the requirement for 300 light tanks has nothing to do with the phasing out of the T-55s. It is to be employed in J&K and North East and none of them are particularly for Pakistan, meaning they will not cross the borders.

Btw where most T-55 are deployed right now?

Arjun inductions are on a tight rope. Simply because the tank has been successful now does not mean the Army may have the resources to commit to an entirely new tank. That's why the DGMF has asked for a new tank, Mk2. A future order of more T-90s will kill the Arjun Mk1 project.

DGMF is a high post and it will never do this mistake when Army is heavily pro Arjun..
Army is considering future needed to be indigenous for long term wars..

Sir. New armour types are designed. The best ones are chosen and tested. Testing takes the longest time and that results in the time delay. There is no guarantee the composition of the T-90 Kanchan and Arjun Kanchan will be the same. There are multiple designs on the Chobam too and the kanchan and Chobam development time lines are similar, Chobham being older. The Kanchan of 2002 could be different from the Kanchan of 2010. Of course, that does not mean the Arjuns armour cannot be upgraded with future production orders.

Their is no such thing as Kanchan 2010..

There are different types of K-5s used. The ones on top and turret front are different from the biggest side ERAs

Their is only one type of K-5 ERA not two also K-5 tiles are almost same except the front once are bit bigger..
It is designed to deflect any round but for only once..

Besides i have given u the data of side ERAs..

 

[Agantrope]

Tank electronics use lesser power comparatively. We cannot compare it to modern day computers. The Cray XT-5 needs 40KW of power which is like the power required to run the entire Phalcon AWACS.

1 KW is enough to run the avionics on an aircraft minus the Radar and Jammer. So, it is plenty for tank electronics.

The Arjun's APU runs at turret loads. So, the tank requires a very high load APU. You can even use a car engine for it. The displacement of the APU is very low compared to the main engine and can stay powered for long periods of time.

APUs on ALL MBTs are located externally while the T-90s APU is within the armour. It is an advantage to have APU. But, compared to the advantages of T-90 an APU is not a necessity. The Army never asked for APU on the Arjun anyway. It is an added perk.

Question is not on the T-90s APU, But whether it is present in the IA's Armoury?

Please read the next post (264) by sayareakd, who is indeed a "arjun" man

I havent remember on reading any article that states the IA's T-90 have an APU. Please enlighten with some authentic sources.

 

[sayareakd]

T90S does not have APU, Russians can proved APU but, they ask for money.

 

[ppgj]

"logistics" is brought in to support T-90 every time the debate goes on to Arjun!!!

if induction of a superior product "hinges" only on "existing logistics" - then, there should be no MMRCA for IAF, no new "artillery" for army etc.. inspite of MPs like Ray sir and Kunal Biswas sir clarifying and vouching for Arjun.

why do we need even T-90s?? T-72's would have sufficed bringing even better "commonality" of spares, ammo etc...particularly because they too have the same engines as T-90 with the upgrades and ERA!!

besides i guess logistics also includes "maintainence", "repairs" and "servicing".

let's take a look at "replacement of an engine" for both Arjun and T-72 and T-90.

Arjun is modular in design and works on the basis of LRU and hence maintainence friendly. it needs only "only a couple of hours" to replace the engine!!!

straight from the horse's mouth (43rd regiment of the IA)-

Changing a T-72 engine takes a full day; changing an Arjun engine takes a couple of hours.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/nailing-some-more-falsehoods-about.html

"full day" assertion of Ajai shukla wrt T-72 is confirmed here -

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...02Zkqq&sig=AHIEtbTMw_PgfohUmXgXkmpuG9jQdZLFJg

page 37.

it takes "as per repair manual" - 24 hrs in peace time with min. 4 mechanics!!!

and it takes a minimum 12 hrs if on war footing during war time!!!

now, everyone knows T-90 is just an improved T-72. i guess that would mean improvement in engine replacement time too. but how much???

i had also given (in the past) in the relevant thread another link where the then DRDO chief says Arjun needs only 45 minutes to replace the engine!!!

that link seems to have been taken out of the site but anyway the link -

http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl2117/stories/20040827006113300.htm

in the relevant thread i have either partly quoted relevant portion or full article as per the above link.

many false hoods related to engine etc.. were thrashed here -

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-war-and-you-can-win-it-for-arjun.html

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/nailing-some-more-falsehoods-about.html

it is better if things are seen in perspective.

strange was the "engine" problems "disappeared" after the "blackbox" was installed by the MTU guys!!!!

power requirement.

"Shtora" power requirement - 1 kw (1.34 hp) and weight 350 kg.

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html

"Arena" 1kw (1.34 hp) and weight - 1100 kg

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

note an "ARENA" adds one tonne weight of it's own!! a T-90 driven by an 846/910 hp engine already suffers from "under power". adding a tonne will only compound the "basic mobilty" part!!

an AC in a tank needs at the least 10 to 15 kw (13.41 hp to 20.12 hp). besides where is the "space??" - a result of an "obsolete" design!! even russian army refuses!!

Army proposes air-conditioners

Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, May 20
India's main battle tank, the Russian-built T-90, is facing problems with its sophisticated computerised systems as they are not working properly in high temperatures which is a routine during the summer in Rajasthan and parts of Gujarat.

The Army has now requested the ministry of defence to install air-conditioners in the tanks as the electronics have been failing when temperatures rise above the 45° Celsius. Sources said the project to install air-conditioners would be handled in India only. It will be a big task as about 300 T-90 tanks are required to be re-fitted and equipped with a cooling system. The heat is hampering the working of the sophisticated system on board and also slows down the firing capability.

Modern tanks, like modern aircraft, have a very sensitive sensor and computer-based firing and navigation system.

The source added that the Defence Research and Development Organisation would be roped in for the project that would require some hardcore engineering work.

However, it will not be an easy job. The tank does not have space within its exterior armour that can take an AC unit. Moreover, an externally mounted AC unit will be a liability in case of a conflict. Also an auxillary power unit will be required to power the AC. Again fitting this power unit will be task in itself, said a top official.

The existing power system drawn from a 1000 horse power engine may not be enough to run the 46-tonne tank and also power the AC. And this is not some normal air conditioning it will require a powerful AC as the temperatures in the desert areas like Barmer, located smack on the border with Pakistan, go up to the 50° C mark. And the inside of the tank can be even more heat generating. The temperature inside the chamber will be required to be brought down to a comfortable 30 degrees as the hood will be required to be closed to make the AC effective.

Even if the auxiliary power system is fitted it will need fuel to run and this will mean drawing fuel from the tank's existing supplies. In the past it has been observed that the systems of the tanks gets heated so much that ice packs were needed to cool them.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#5

strange is Arjun does not need it!!! the ever thrashed drdo, hardened the electronics to operate at 60 degrees!!! (in the above links provided)

so how can a 1 kw APU which can't even take care of "communication needs" will take care of this burden. even pak T-84 has an 18 kw APU!! and a 1200 hp engine!!

T-90S is no match for the T-84. and T-90s were "bought" to ward of that threat!!!

what an irony!!!

even more "ironic" is why DRDO needs to help whther it is FCS, APU or AC??? the cost "supposedly" includes lifetime support/extra engines/ammo/unit cost etc....

ERA is supposedly a "silver bullet". the fact that Arjun can also sport an ERA is completely missed on people and also the fact that with all of that Arjun has "enough" reserve power!!!!!

well well well...

 

[Rahul Singh]

strange was the "engine" problems "disappeared" after the "blackbox" was installed by the MTU guys!!!!

Most strange is that DGMF thought their mischievous act will go digested easily by every one. Four engine failure that too when engine is from legendary MTU. Even a layman can smell....

 

[ppgj]

Most strange is that DGMF thought their mischievous act will go digested easily by every one. Four engine failure that too when engine is from legendary MTU. Even a layman can smell....

also one needs to remember AUCRT trials are not about "performance" rather running them to death!!! to see their endurance!!!

False argument No 5: The Arjun failed the AUCRT this summer

As I mentioned above, the Arjun performed creditably during the AUCRT, once Renk solved the transmission system problem.

But what is far more important is the fact that AUCRT is not a "performance trials". It is not possible for a tank to "pass" or "fail" the AUCRT. The purpose of the AUCRT is to run a small number of tanks for thousands of kilometres and make them fire hundreds of rounds, basically putting them through their entire service lifespan in a few months. The aim of doing this is to evaluate what spares get consumed during the life-span of the tank; what maintenance and overhaul tasks should be scheduled at what stage of a tank's life; an AUCRT evaluates a tank's logistical needs, not its operational performance.

But when the transmission gave some problems in the first three phases of AUCRT, the DGMF was quick to seize the chance to bad-mouth the tank, and to convey the false impression that the Arjun had "failed its trials".

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/nailing-some-more-falsehoods-about.html

one of the T-90's (out of 3) engine during their AUCRT trials in pokharan broke down after 1037 kms. and all the 3 tanks had their "smoke generating system tubes" broken down!!!!

point 5 & 6 (page 23) in this link - http://cdm.ap.nic.in/casestudies/casevol362/Induction of tank T90s.pdf

 

[Armand2REP]

All that's just talk without numbers to show for. Nuclear hardening and EM shielding exist on the T-90s too.

They are the premier manufacturer. There is no EMP shielding on a T-90s engine except the spark plugs, it doesn't have any more electronics to need it!

Germans did not give us their best engine because of sanctions. Even the one they provided was short of what DRDO wanted. DRDO was looking for a 1500HP engine and that was denied. Also, the torque on the Arjun's engine was underpowered. In deserts the T-90s power dropped by 10-15% based on the test carried out while the German engines power output dropped by 100%. The engines failed, transmission fluids leaked with the slightest jerk. It took the Germans and the DRDO scientists 10 years to make the engine fit for Indian conditions.

It is called tropicalising an engine.

Till date, over the last 10 years, only one T-90 engine failed because of bad quality. Arjun's engine has been changed by the dozens in tests. Yes, I am talking about the same German engines.

Only one... only one that you heard about because IA brass didn't want Arjun, back then. T-72BMs use the same engine as the T-90 and they littered the highway into Georgia. Recent data shows 33% of all Russian exported machinery receives complaints of being defective. A T-90 from Taman Guards broke down during rehearsals for the VD parade while the restored WWII armour were still moving.

Read above. Epic Fail.

Read above, epic fail...

What are you talking about? The effective range of the Refleks missile is 5 km, which is as good as the LAHAT. The Catherine gives us first look first kill capability in any weather condition against even the Arjun, let alone the Pak MBTs. The Pak Al Khalid is more protected against ATGM s than the Arjun is too. Even the M1A2 is useless when fighting ATGMs. ERA makes the difference.

Lahat has a range of 8km and is top-down attack so how is it as good? The T-90 FCS is crap, even the PT-91 Twardy in Malaysia defeated the T-90 in firing trials, much less the Arjun. The Pak T-80UD can fire Reflex, the same missile the T-90 does. Pak tanks are getting Thales commander sights (Matis) which will still reveal Indian tanks before T-90 can engage. The Al Khalid armour protection isn't even in the same class as the Arjun with Kachan.

The Pakistani armour's primary armament is their series of Refleks and AT-11s. Their secondary armament consists of what every body knows, tank shells. The Pakistanis depend on digging in, and shoot with ATGMs while our tanks are trying to cross the desert and across canals. The Arjun's speed and agility is a fail compared to T-90s ability to make quick a dash across deserts. The T-90s low profile further provides better protection against the Pakistani armour.

The T-90s low capacity fuel tanks under armour is a liability to any strike corps. Arjun can go 100km further on internal fuel. The T-90s pathetic power to weight ratio is a liability trying to traverse rough terrain. The Arjun's ability to shoot better while moving faster will be key to taking out Pak tanks. The Arjun is also faster than the T-90. The T-90s low profile is a disadvantage when trying to use scopes as the horizon is lower than a turret that sits higher.

FAIL. All our T-90s are equipped with ERA. As you may have read Kunal Biswas sirs post, he has seen them personally. So, FAIL.

FAIL... you do not have the capability to replace the ERA which will expire in a matter of years from purchase. Most of the ERA you will have when you go into battle will not even operate unless the Russians can deliver continuous orders, of which they are not well known for doing.

Also, why is it so hard for you to not figure out by looking at our T-90 tanks with Indian soldiers around. All T-90s have their ERA in them if you just figure out where to look at.

Why is it so hard for you to understand you do not make it? Russia has refused India the license, you will not and do not have a steady resupply of ERA. When it comes time for war most of it will be a bunch of useless bricks.

The T-90s do come with a 1KW APU. Russians APUs have been in existence since the time T-55s were used. The T-90 comes with a standard 1 KW APU.

The T-90 Bhishma has no APU, the 1kw APU of Russian T-90s is only enough to run the radio.

I don't know about Pakistan or China. But,

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=48

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=55

We have been using them for years now, all Israeli. We are also exporting the radars. These ranges are well above a tanks firing range.

Bunch of dead links. Hope they are better than BEL's webpage. I know of the BFSR, but its range does not exceed a good thermal.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But they do. The Phalcon is capable of picking up a man on its screens at any time.

JSTARS is an ancient platform. The Phalcon is the most advanced operational battlefield surveillance radar flying to date.

The Phalcon can only track 100 targets while the JSTAR can track 600. So much for ancient platform. A Phalcon in a rotodome is not going to be used for ground surviellance, its downward azimuth is blocked by the body of the aircraft. It is a dedicated AWACs. IAI makes one with mounted undercarriage, but India doesn't have it.

Any radar with a capable SAR is able to pick up information from the ground. AESA makes things even more efficient. The Phalcon is capable of picking up a crawling man as well as a stationary tank from stand off distances. It has the processing power to do just that effectively.

At 100 tracked targets and an azimuth blocked by the plane body, it doesn't have the ability to track much of anything smaller than a ship.

 

[samarsingh]

having gone through this thread I wish to make a few observations...
wasn't Arjun supposed to be "indigenous".....with half of its components imported it seems more like "assembled" to me and that too quite expensive, also since the project got technical assistance from the makers of Leopard 2 tanks, the expectations will be understandably high....It still has a rifled gun...the only other country which has rifled guns is UK, and they are switching to smoothbore in their new challenger tanks....
import is import, there may be a larger component of imports in T90, but at least its not masked under the guise of "indigenous",
we cant really blame the army for choosing the T90's...the Arjun must have tested their patience
with all due respect to our DRDO/CVRDE and their 3.5 decades of painstaking hard work and research on this project, I think the Indian Army and taxpayers deserve better.....I am not advocating scrapping the project , hopefully the Arjun MK2 will truly be indigenous and will be at par with the best.....

 

[samarsingh]

and if quality is the concern we should have opted to import the Leopard 2 tanks with some TOT undestanding, Spain has a similar deal with Germany.....

 

[ppgj]

having gone through this thread I wish to make a few observations...
wasn't Arjun supposed to be "indigenous".....with half of its components imported it seems more like "assembled" to me

you say you went thro' the thread. i would appreciate if you can go thro' even the links provided. also visit "arjun" thread too.

when time is not given for the developers and the specs are changed frequently (3 times), how can any body deliver??? think if you were the developer. and we are not talking about some software!!!

besides the "imported" component makes up 50%. how does it compare with "100%" wrt T-90, that too an inefficient and a flawed design??

and that too quite expensive,

wrong again!! go thro' the thread again.

also since the project got technical assistance from the makers of Leopard 2 tanks, the expectations will be understandably high....

it meets the expectations. people need to look at it in an "unbiased" way.

It still has a rifled gun...the only other country which has rifled guns is UK, and they are switching to smoothbore in their new challenger tanks....

rifled gun allows you to fire HESH rounds which a smooth bore can't. it was the requirement from the army!!!

import is import, there may be a larger component of imports in T90, but at least its not masked under the guise of "indigenous",

what mask?? T-90 is imported 100%. a licensed manufacture does not make it "indigenous". you pay royalty to the OEM for every single machine you produce!!!

we cant really blame the army for choosing the T90's...the Arjun must have tested their patience
with all due respect to our DRDO/CVRDE and their 3.5 decades of painstaking hard work and research on this project, I think the Indian Army and taxpayers deserve better.....I am not advocating scrapping the project , hopefully the Arjun MK2 will truly be indigenous and will be at par with the best.....

like it or not. Arjun compares with its western contemporaries well. it outsmarts T-90 in majority of parameters!! as i said people need to see it FWIW and not sit on the existing ones with a "host" of issues not resolved yet!!!

and if quality is the concern we should have opted to import the Leopard 2 tanks with some TOT undestanding, Spain has a similar deal with Germany.....

the concern is not about the quality!!! Arjun is designed "specifically" for indian conditions while T-90 was inducted based on trials in Russia!!!! no wonder it has many important issues still to be settled. Arjun has proven it is superior but "obduracy" wrt IA is stopping the induction.

 

[Rahul Singh]

wasn't Arjun supposed to be "indigenous".....with half of its components imported it seems more like "assembled" to me and that too quite expensive, also since the project got technical assistance from the makers of Leopard 2 tanks, the expectations will be understandably high....It still has a rifled gun...the only other country which has rifled guns is UK, and they are switching to smoothbore in their new challenger tanks....
import is import, there may be a larger component of imports in T90, but at least its not masked under the guise of "indigenous",

Whether something is indigenous or imported is decided by where and by whom its design was done not(respectfully) by the origin of the components involved.

Arjun is indigenous because it was largely designed in house. Now you may say as you have already said imported components inside Arjun doesn't justifies indigenous claim. Answer me one question, as a production house will you like to set-up a production line when order is merely in one digit? I believe answer should be no. So, being a designer and developer what option will you have other than buying that component from where it is available. Same happened in case of Arjun due to uncertain order, industry was not willing to set-up production line and because of this very reason CVRDE opted to buy systems and sub-systems form abroad. Though i also acknowledge that there was lack of know how and this also lead to imports. But this is an old story and things are changing fast and changing for good. Percentage of imported components in Arjun is going down by every passing day. God willing one day it will surely go below 10%. That time Arjun will be become indigenous(as per your definition).

Unfortunately same can't happen in case of T-90, even after getting 90% of Indian made systems abroad, T-90 will forever be called Russian....

 

[ppgj]

Power requirements for an MBT wrt to "electronics" inside broadly covers the following systems -

1. FCS and the associated computer.

2. laser designator/ranger.

3. thermal sights.

4. radio communication.

5. gps systems.

6. battlefield management system.

7. APS.

8. AC (most don't need).

i may have missed some points and would be glad to be corrected.

now, normally an APU will support all or most of the above in addition to many benefits it brings to the table. like -

1. it gives the tank to operate in "silent" mode - a hunter killer mode!!

2. reduces IR signature of the tank thus "reducing" it's vulnerability on the battleground.

3. saves vital fuel. IOW increase in range.

4. enhances engine "life".

now, all the electronics listed in the first part IMO, would need a minimum of 15 to 30kw of power to be generated subject to what systems make up a particular MBT and whether the power "drawn" is split between the APU and the main engine.

the main engine IMO will/should cater only in tank mobility, accelaration and it's maneuarability.

as one can see, the importance of an APU in an MBT is beyond doubt.

no wonder most MBTs including "T" class have 18kw APUs (minus AC). the need for an AC was never felt in "Russian climate" which is cold. not so when it has to operate in hot indian conditions!! while DRDO was successful in "hardening" the Arjun electronics, the russians were not able to.

now T-90 is an enhanced version of T-72 and so it carries the same baggage of "space" being a premium!!! this has been alluded to by MPs and i gave a media link earlier. also due to a poor design in terms of ventilation makes soldiers "faint" in hot indian deserts!! so an AC in T-90's context means cooling for both men and the machine.

i guess it would be a "miracle" to find space for an AC unit although an APU can go on the body itself with it's own negatives. if DRDO or whoever is able to put an AC in, they need to be really brilliant and should command respect.

just some thoughts!!!

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

Arjun is indigenous because it was largely designed in house

I have to disagree just designing something does'nt automatically make it indegeneous, What makes a product succesful is whats inside it, in this case the enigine,sensors, FCS, etc (like Tejas which is indegeneous) but with almost all of the components imported (except armour and main cannon) Arjun with its present config cannot be an indegeneous by any standerds what DRDO managed to do here is what they have been doing with the T-90 i.e take the components from russia and assemble them here thats it here they bought from germany and isreal and they assembled it here where is the indegeneous part in it?

as a production house will you like to set-up a production line when order is merely in one digit?Same happened in case of Arjun due to uncertain order, industry was not willing to set-up production line and because of this very reason CVRDE opted to buy systems and sub-systems form abroad

The army initialy QRS they wanted to replace there entire T-90,T-72, and T-55 series tanks with the indegeneous tank promised by DRDO after MANY MANY YEARS of empty promises and trail failures and faced with force depletion the army had no choice but to go for additional orders of upgraded T-90's and issue RFP's for T-72 upgrades CVRDE and DRDO are themselves to blame on this for not being frank and transperent

Unfortunately same can't happen in case of T-90, even after getting 90% of Indian made systems abroad, T-90 will forever be called Russian....

I agree on this point too but it is still not too late for arjun CVRDE and DRDO should get cracking and develop core components first