Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

Then so?!?!
What u are saying?

The problem is a lot of spare parts of the T-90 and T-72 are similar. According to Ajai Shukla's last news, even T-72 may get the same engines as the T-90 in the future. You and I know the T-90s are here to stay while the T-72s have another 10-15 years left.

The army has indicated its need for a new tank(next generation) only after the phase out of the T-72 which seems realistic. Had the Arjun been successful in its trials in 2000 and had it only faced teething problems like tropicalization, then we would have seen Arjuns MK1 in Indian Army's inventory right about now instead of some 500 odd T-90s.

Now the Army has prepared plans based on one logistics supply chain and that's what the army has been screaming about. I doubt the cold war doctrine has been prepared with a second logistics supply in mind. They need to buy new tools, new machinery, new transports etc for the Arjun in huge numbers. The crew numbers increase to 4 and that means extra personnel and extra pay. This is at the time when a huge chunk of the army's budget has been diverted to pay hikes.

Simply because Arjun is superior in some way, we are trying to induct a big headache. Give the army 10 more years and they will happily induct the Arjun Mk2. Unlike what most country's do we know that the Army has not cancelled the Arjun project, which is a big deal. The army has asked for a new tank by 2020. Why not focus on that instead of trying to induct a tank which is not required as of now according to army requirements.

Limited?
No, 250 is a huge no and it become more important when its abt heavy vehicles..

Only 6 regiments compared to 40+ regiments of the T series?

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/11870-New-Polish-Indo-light-tank..

Interesting. I missed this news while I was away I guess.

Btw where most T-55 are deployed right now?

The new light tanks we will be inducting are to be stationed in Kashmir and Assam and not as a replacement to the T-55. A lot of difference.

DGMF is a high post and it will never do this mistake when Army is heavily pro Arjun..
Army is considering future needed to be indigenous for long term wars..

Only large orders will be useful. The small orders we are currently facing are token measures. The highest officers of the army have already said major inductions will only happen for a new generation tank. I am sure the army is now happy with the tank. But we should also see if the army is capable of inducting a large number of new tanks before 2020 when the T-90s are already being inducted; and the decision is best left for them to make and not us, or journalists or the MoD.

Their is no such thing as Kanchan 2010..

I will take your word if you are right in the middle of it all or if DRDO made a public statement. Tank armour is ever evolving. In 2002, there was no such thing as the 2002 armour as well, the Arjun's had the '90s version.

Their is only one type of K-5 ERA not two also K-5 tiles are almost same except the front once are bit bigger..
It is designed to deflect any round but for only once..

I have seen 3 ERAs for the K-5. Only pics though. One on the side and you gave the dimensions for those, one on the turret edges and one on the glacis below the steel panels.

Hitting the same place twice is really difficult. That's why the expensive Hollow Shaped Charges or Tandem warheads exist.

I havent remember on reading any article that states the IA's T-90 have an APU. Please enlighten with some authentic sources.

Actually, I am yet to see an article that says T-90 does not come with an APU. The T-90 APU is a standard fit.

@ppgj

The T-90 has a much more modular design than the T-72. We no longer need to take out the turret to replace the engines. The T-90 turret is welded. So, it can't be done on the battlefield anyway.

The T-90 no longer takes as much time as the T-72.


Also this,

so how can a 1 kw APU which can't even take care of "communication needs" will take care of this burden. even pak T-84 has an 18 kw APU!! and a 1200 hp engine!!

1KW is plenty. Most of LCA's Avionics will need 1KW. Also, LCA cannot give more than 2 KW. So, if a radar, jammer, MC, fly by wire and all other electronics can be managed with 2KW, then 1KW on the T-90 is a LOT.

T-90S is no match for the T-84. and T-90s were "bought" to ward of that threat!!!

So, a superior APU means the tank is automatically superior? What a joke. Also, if the APU is powered ON the Al-Khalid cannot use its engine because that defeats the purpose of using the APU and viceversa. Also, the APU can only be used when the tanks have a defensive posture. The IA want to split Pakistan into 2 in the first week of the war and then move North towards Islamabad and South towards Karachi. What part in that will be defensive??? No T-90 will be sitting on our borders staring across with the APU ON. The Pakistanis will be defensive on all fronts mainly because of the superiority of our air force, they have a greater need of the APU.

Their hunter killer systems will be obsolete once we have completely networked our forces in the near future. There is no place for a stationary tank after that.

It will be silly if a SAR equipped UCAV is able to detect all stationary enemy tanks in a 600sq km area. The World's progressed beyond tanks. So, don't cling on to the APU so much. It's like shooting our own foot.

Also, about the Arena and Shtora. They have been used on similar tanks with weaker engines and still managed to be incredible.

ven more "ironic" is why DRDO needs to help whther it is FCS, APU or AC???

Why is that ironic? If the army needs modifications they will go to DRDO since Russia has provided ToT. It is DRDO's job to support the Army, not the other way round.

ERA is supposedly a "silver bullet". the fact that Arjun can also sport an ERA is completely missed on people and also the fact that with all of that Arjun has "enough" reserve power!!!!!

Nope. Arjun will use NERA, after it comes out.

It is called tropicalising an engine.

Took 12 years and 8 years after the contract with T-90 was signed. Hmpf!

Only one... only one that you heard about because IA brass didn't want Arjun, back then. T-72BMs use the same engine as the T-90 and they littered the highway into Georgia. Recent data shows 33% of all Russian exported machinery receives complaints of being defective. A T-90 from Taman Guards broke down during rehearsals for the VD parade while the restored WWII armour were still moving.

Blame that on maintenance.

Lahat has a range of 8km and is top-down attack so how is it as good? The T-90 FCS is crap, even the PT-91 Twardy in Malaysia defeated the T-90 in firing trials, much less the Arjun. The Pak T-80UD can fire Reflex, the same missile the T-90 does. Pak tanks are getting Thales commander sights (Matis) which will still reveal Indian tanks before T-90 can engage. The Al Khalid armour protection isn't even in the same class as the Arjun with Kachan.

The Matis can barely detect a tank at 10kms and can identify it only at 3 kms. The Catherine detects a tank at nearly 20kms and identify it at 5kms. The Matis isn't even of the same class as the Catherine.

The T-90s low capacity fuel tanks under armour is a liability to any strike corps. Arjun can go 100km further on internal fuel. The T-90s pathetic power to weight ratio is a liability trying to traverse rough terrain. The Arjun's ability to shoot better while moving faster will be key to taking out Pak tanks. The Arjun is also faster than the T-90. The T-90s low profile is a disadvantage when trying to use scopes as the horizon is lower than a turret that sits higher.

E! All that does not matter when the T-90 is better protected. 2.2m is enough to use the scopes.

FAIL... you do not have the capability to replace the ERA

LOL. Yes we do. It is just a matter of throwing it like a used condom. Take off the screws, pull out the used tile and replace it. It can be done in a few minutes. ERA are attachments.

You saw the video on how he was installing the ERA on a fully operational tank.

which will expire in a matter of years from purchase.

Tank shells expire quicker than ERA. Do you think they are not replaced either. Every thing has an expiry date.

Most of the ERA you will have when you go into battle will not even operate unless the Russians can deliver continuous orders, of which they are not well known for doing.

Oh! They even supplied us with AWACS in 1971. DRDO is making ERAs for T-72. Lets see if the Russians give us license to manufacture them here on either the Relikt or the Kaktus.

Heck they transferred the hot sections of the AL-31 Turbofan so what makes you think they cannot give us a license for the ERAs. Also, the T-90 deal was hastily done, just like Gorshkov. Time will tell.

The Phalcon can only track 100 targets while the JSTAR can track 600. So much for ancient platform. A Phalcon in a rotodome is not going to be used for ground surviellance, its downward azimuth is blocked by the body of the aircraft. It is a dedicated AWACs. IAI makes one with mounted undercarriage, but India doesn't have it.

The Phalcon is AESA, so its radars have a bigger advantage than the J-STARS. It also does not have to fly right below the enemy armour formations to detect it. The Phalcons will be flying 100km inside OUR borders. The enemy tanks will not be anywhere below the Phalcon. Anyway, its downward azimuth is not blocked at all by the body. It is not a rotodome, it just looks like one. The radome extends beyond the body of the aircraft and it is capable of seeing right below too. There are 3 different radars within the radome.

At 100 tracked targets and an azimuth blocked by the plane body, it doesn't have the ability to track much of anything smaller than a ship.

The Phalcon targets tracked is just a theoretical figure and that is the same for the J-Stars. Also, the Phalcon tracking figure is for air targets while that of J-Stars is for land based targets. Need I remind you which of the targets are faster. The Phalcon ability to track land targets has not been revealed.

If a plane can detect a mobile SAM, it can very well detect a tank or even a person.

 

[samarsingh]

when time is not given for the developers and the specs are changed frequently (3 times), how can any body deliver??? think if you were the developer. and we are not talking about some software!!!

1974-2000 that is a lot of time..

besides the "imported" component makes up 50%. how does it compare with "100%" wrt T-90, that too an inefficient and a flawed design??

T90 may not be the best MBT around but calling it inefficient and flawed is a bit biased...if it were inefficient we would not have opted for it in the first place..

it meets the expectations. people need to look at it in an "unbiased" way.

it is a heavier tank....I guess it needs to do more than the T90

rifled gun allows you to fire HESH rounds which a smooth bore can't. it was the requirement from the army!!!

HESH rounds can not be the only argument to stick with rifled guns. I understand that they have more accuracy. but with modern ammo Smoothbores can do the job too...perhaps it has more to do with difficulty in procuring modern ammunitions for smoothbore..

what mask?? T-90 is imported 100%. a licensed manufacture does not make it "indigenous".

exactly thats what I said..

like it or not. Arjun compares with its western contemporaries well. it outsmarts T-90 in majority of parameters!! as i said people need to see it FWIW and not sit on the existing ones with a "host" of issues not resolved yet!!!

comparing it to Abram M1 or Leopards will be a bit premature as of now...

Arjun has proven it is superior but "obduracy" wrt IA is stopping the induction.

Army would not intentionally risk the lives of its soldiers...to score a few brownie points over DRDO...lets not bring corruption here..

one more thing ...during WW2 German tanks were heavily engineered but the Soviet Tanks could be mass produced and that made the difference...
I think the T90 has a slight advantage in this respect too...

I am hopeful for the Arjun MK2, but am not comfortable with calling the present Arjun as indigenous...don't wat to repeat the reasons...Pavanvenkatesh has some good points ....

all said....our first effort to build an MBT must have been a huge learning exp for DRDO...

 

[ppgj]

1974-2000 that is a lot of time..

you are missing the point that during the same period the specs were changed 3 times!!! which is what i reminded you of in my last post.

T90 may not be the best MBT around but calling it inefficient and flawed is a bit biased...if it were inefficient we would not have opted for it in the first place..

exactly the point why the debate rages on. i listed out various 'issues' related to T-90 in this very thread which is why i call it the way i call it. i guess you said you went thro' the thread!!

it is a heavier tank....I guess it needs to do more than the T90

weight has nothing to do with it. it has enough power to take care.

HESH rounds can not be the only argument to stick with rifled guns. I understand that they have more accuracy. but with modern ammo Smoothbores can do the job too...perhaps it has more to do with difficulty in procuring modern ammunitions for smoothbore..

ask the army. it was their requirement.

exactly thats what I said..

ok.

comparing it to Abram M1 or Leopards will be a bit premature as of now...

our DGMF called it world class.

Army would not intentionally risk the lives of its soldiers...to score a few brownie points over DRDO...

better if you can enlighten me on the "issues" with T-90 - i listed out. they are pending for 11 years now.

lets not bring corruption here..

did i??? or did you invent it??

one more thing ...during WW2 German tanks were heavily engineered but the Soviet Tanks could be mass produced and that made the difference...

today is not WW2 time.

I think the T90 has a slight advantage in this respect too...

how???

I am hopeful for the Arjun MK2, but am not comfortable with calling the present Arjun as indigenous...

call it whatever you want.

don't wat to repeat the reasons...Pavanvenkatesh has some good points ....

all said....our first effort to build an MBT must have been a huge learning exp for DRDO...

0_0

 

[Agantrope]

one more thing ...during WW2 German tanks were heavily engineered but the Soviet Tanks could be mass produced and that made the difference...
I think the T90 has a slight advantage in this respect too...

Quite funny. Had any electronics used in the WW2? If need more details just see the article in WW2 on tank in wikipedia.

Arjun has a far more matured electronics which can be easily linked to any radars, Awacs and it can effectively used to take out the target with precision.

Again same old 'Beating around the bush (not george bush )'

 

[samarsingh]

'

Quite funny

great....you find it amusing. I find the idea of calling a "assembled" tank as "indigenous" really amusing

Had any electronics used in the WW2? If need more details just see the article in WW2 on tank in wikipedia.

thanks for enlightening me about the significance of wikipedia....obviously technology improves with time...but that does not mean that one cannot learn from the past....why is Art of War, Chanakya famous now....were there any electronics then...Generals learn from military strategies from the past, even Alexander ( talking about BC) is studied by professionals...really amusing you can discount WW2 lessons...

Arjun has a far more matured electronics which can be easily linked to any radars, Awacs and it can effectively used to take out the target with precision.

so does the T90

Again same old 'Beating around the bush (not george bush )

 

[Armand2REP]

1KW is plenty. Most of LCA's Avionics will need 1KW. Also, LCA cannot give more than 2 KW. So, if a radar, jammer, MC, fly by wire and all other electronics can be managed with 2KW, then 1KW on the T-90 is a LOT.

1KW is a joke. The radar of LCA takes 10 times more power than that, much less the rest of her avionics. Western tanks have APUs generating in the 20KW range. There is a reason for it. There are several scopes, sensors, transmit/receive antennas, radios, monitors, warning receivers, AC, navigation, battle management, and any equipment you might need charged. Least of all not forgetting to keep enough power to charge a 230kg power pack.

So, a superior APU means the tank is automatically superior? What a joke. Also, if the APU is powered ON the Al-Khalid cannot use its engine because that defeats the purpose of using the APU and viceversa. Also, the APU can only be used when the tanks have a defensive posture. The IA want to split Pakistan into 2 in the first week of the war and then move North towards Islamabad and South towards Karachi. What part in that will be defensive??? No T-90 will be sitting on our borders staring across with the APU ON. The Pakistanis will be defensive on all fronts mainly because of the superiority of our air force, they have a greater need of the APU.

A superior APU means a superior tank 99% of the time as it isn't running. The APU is used not only in a defencive posture, but makes maintenance far easier as you do not have to hook the batteries up to recharge the power pack. If your tank breaks down that only requires a few hours fix, you do not have to have a recovery vehicle tow your ass back to the nearest jack as you can recharge your own batteries. A cavalry charge deep into the heart of Pakistan still requires an APU. You will not defeat them in one day. Tanks will still be sitting idle and you will receive PA counter attacks. IA cannot transport enough fuel to keep 1000 tanks running 24/7 with the addition of all other vehicles. There will be supply lines whose job it is for tanks to guard, they will sit idle.

Their hunter killer systems will be obsolete once we have completely networked our forces in the near future. There is no place for a stationary tank after that.

You can't even get all jawans with night vision goggles and you talking about completely networked forces. India's network isn't for offensive but defensive. Once the troops cross into Pakistan they will be out of reach of India's secure communications network and have to rely on low bandwidth LOS microwave transmitters. It is only enough for secure digital communications between leadership and maybe some compressed photo sets or small video streams from UAVs. To network 300,000 troops operating in enemy territory you will need a dozen of the latest SATCOMs and much higher bandwidth for mobile M/W transmit/recieve stations. Unless of course you plan on going so slow you have enough time to lay fibre optic cables. lol

It will be silly if a SAR equipped UCAV is able to detect all stationary enemy tanks in a 600sq km area. The World's progressed beyond tanks. So, don't cling on to the APU so much. It's like shooting our own foot.

It would be silly if a Pak SAM shot down a $10m SAR UAV. Pak Army is not the Taliban with nothing but HMGs or AKMs to shoot them down. In fact, Pakistan's crap air defence is ideal for shooting down any UAV India has. What will you do when UAVs are shot down faster than you recover them? So don't cling to UAV's as the force equaliser as it is like shooting your own foot.

Also, about the Arena and Shtora. They have been used on similar tanks with weaker engines and still managed to be incredible.

The Shtora IR blinders were so ineffective they removed them from production tanks. Arena hasn't even gone into production. Russian defence suites are pretty crappy. Everywhere you go in a war zone, all you see are burning Russian made tanks.

Why is that ironic? If the army needs modifications they will go to DRDO since Russia has provided ToT. It is DRDO's job to support the Army, not the other way round.

Russia hasn't provided ToT for modifications. You really are naive about what license production of a tank entails. Russia does not give enough ToT for you to copy or modify the electronics, you just make the hull and some mechanisation parts. The AC is not even Russian, it is Israeli. Of course you will not have the slightest idea how to replace or modify a Catherine FC. If you modify anything you void the maintenance contract. Of course your T-90s do not have APUs, you would need to consult with Russia to add one. That is why it is nice to have an indigenous tank like Arjun that you can let DRDO test their equipment with. You can't do that with the T-90s without consulting Russia, then if you screw with the 3rd party equipment Russia then has to consult with them.

Nope. Arjun will use NERA, after it comes out.

I would like to see Kachan Mk2 in that role. Keep the insert then add a modular armour package like Leclerc.

Took 12 years and 8 years after the contract with T-90 was signed. Hmpf!

It didn't take 12 years, MTU didn't start tropicalising them until 2007 after the Arjun broke down during trials. India had to order it first. You can blame your own penny pinching bureaucracy for that.

Blame that on maintenance.

Blame that on defective engines.

The Matis can barely detect a tank at 10kms and can identify it only at 3 kms. The Catherine detects a tank at nearly 20kms and identify it at 5kms. The Matis isn't even of the same class as the Catherine.

The Matis Pakistan is getting is the standard version with detection at 13km and recognition at 6km. http://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D1232.pdf

The Matis LR detects at 18km and recognises at 10km. http://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D1235.pdf

They are usually commander sights used for spotting, while the Catherine series is generally used as a gunner's sight. Although, the Matis can be used for fire control. I am not sure which Pakistan is using it for. If it is for a gunnery sight, the T-90 would have a serious problem.

E! All that does not matter when the T-90 is better protected. 2.2m is enough to use the scopes.

When Pak Al-Khalids are armed with Matis thermal imagers, I would say it makes a big difference when they see you first with a higher scope at 2.4m. Al-Khalid has its own ERA of which Pakistan makes in house so theirs will not expire without additional replacements. They do not have to wait on Russia to get its act together. T-90s will have iffy armour and a foe that can shoot nearly as well with the ability to see them in all weather. Arjun has strong enough armour and the accuracy to outshoot any Al-Khalid.

LOL. Yes we do. It is just a matter of throwing it like a used condom. Take off the screws, pull out the used tile and replace it. It can be done in a few minutes. ERA are attachments.

How can you replace it when you do not make it? You going to replace it with an empty brick when Russia can't deliver on time?

Tank shells expire quicker than ERA. Do you think they are not replaced either. Every thing has an expiry date.

Which is why India has the OFB... no ERA there.

Oh! They even supplied us with AWACS in 1971. DRDO is making ERAs for T-72. Lets see if the Russians give us license to manufacture them here on either the Relikt or the Kaktus.

Heck they transferred the hot sections of the AL-31 Turbofan so what makes you think they cannot give us a license for the ERAs. Also, the T-90 deal was hastily done, just like Gorshkov. Time will tell.

Time already told, they did not transfer ERA ToT.

The Phalcon is AESA, so its radars have a bigger advantage than the J-STARS. It also does not have to fly right below the enemy armour formations to detect it. The Phalcons will be flying 100km inside OUR borders. The enemy tanks will not be anywhere below the Phalcon. Anyway, its downward azimuth is not blocked at all by the body. It is not a rotodome, it just looks like one. The radome extends beyond the body of the aircraft and it is capable of seeing right below too. There are 3 different radars within the radome.

Phalcon only tracks 100 targets, it has less processing power than JSTARS. Phalcons flying 100km inside Indian territory will not be able to pick up anything on the ground of the Pak side. It can't even pick up a terrain hugging cruise missile at 100km. It is an L-Band radar, not an X-band which means lower power output. India's is a passive AEW platform, nothing more.

The Phalcon targets tracked is just a theoretical figure and that is the same for the J-Stars. Also, the Phalcon tracking figure is for air targets while that of J-Stars is for land based targets. Need I remind you which of the targets are faster. The Phalcon ability to track land targets has not been revealed.

It is the listed figure by IAI, I am sure they tested it enough to know. The same as the JSTARs 600 targets. The Phalcon ability to track land targets has not been revealed because it was not made to do it... obviously.

If a plane can detect a mobile SAM, it can very well detect a tank or even a person.

Mobile SAM uses a radar, which is far easier to detect than its RCS backed against immediate ground clutter.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The problem is a lot of spare parts of the T-90 and T-72 are similar. According to Ajai Shukla's last news, even T-72 may get the same engines as the T-90 in the future. You and I know the T-90s are here to stay while the T-72s have another 10-15 years left.

Their are many speculation abt engines which can be polish or Russian..

The army has indicated its need for a new tank(next generation) only after the phase out of the T-72 which seems realistic. Had the Arjun been successful in its trials in 2000 and had it only faced teething problems like tropicalization, then we would have seen Arjuns MK1 in Indian Army's inventory right about now instead of some 500 odd T-90s.

Forget the 2000 trilas the Arjun induction and being a fav machine in IA is because of recent ones..
T-90S was meant to be Army replacement for T-72 but as gradually Russian Raw material costs raised and by then army already ordered some 600+ tanks, it was impossible to go back so T-90 is still meant to replace all T-72 and more Arjun will be induced after Avadi finished with T-90s..

Now the Army has prepared plans based on one logistics supply chain and that's what the army has been screaming about. I doubt the cold war doctrine has been prepared with a second logistics supply in mind. They need to buy new tools, new machinery, new transports etc for the Arjun in huge numbers.

Preparation are done in Army HQs, future of IA is all abt T-90 & Arjuns..
Regarding Transportation i have mentioned in my earlier post..

The crew numbers increase to 4 and that means extra personnel and extra pay.

U dont know much abt Army do you?
Its nothing to do with 'extra personnel and extra pay' that extra solider was doing his general duties when the regt was operation T-tanks now he will be act as a loader, Its a good news!!

Only 6 regiments compared to 40+ regiments of the T series?

6 regt is huge!!
If u know how thing work..

The new light tanks we will be inducting are to be stationed in Kashmir and Assam and not as a replacement to the T-55. A lot of difference.

I asked u before where the most T-55s are stationed now, and why they are still in business?
If u find out, u will understand the purchase of Light tanks..

Nope. Arjun will use NERA, after it comes out.

Arjun will have normal ERA tiles also NERA in future...

Take off the screws, pull out the used tile and replace it. It can be done in a few minutes. ERA are attachments.
You saw the video on how he was installing the ERA on a fully operational tank.

These ERAs are non-detachable!

 

[Agantrope]

great....you find it amusing. I find the idea of calling a "assembled" tank as "indigenous" really amusing



thanks for enlightening me about the significance of wikipedia....obviously technology improves with time...but that does not mean that one cannot learn from the past....why is Art of War, Chanakya famous now....were there any electronics then...Generals learn from military strategies from the past, even Alexander ( talking about BC) is studied by professionals...really amusing you can discount WW2 lessons...



so does the T90

You are quite funny again and again, give the order for 500 tanks and see the % of indigeniousation. Even T-90 uses the french electronics.

Chankya is no way related to war and he is with the political science, rather it is Sun Tzu, read your history books properly.

I meant atleast wikipedia; Ok, alexander the great, do you fight with his old sword now, grow up my boy, T-90 is a enhanced old T-72s nothing more than that and I am not here to teach you the WW2, there are better sources than me in net.

Show me the BMS in T-90 like in Arjun. I mean one single article that related to the IA's fleet. I can punch you and tell the answer as no.

I suggested you to read more about tanks and reply, dont get carried away with the promotional videos from manufacturer, i have been in arjun for more than 5 times when in IA's NCC Wing; i know about it a little more than what you know.

 

[ppgj]

@ppgj

The T-90 has a much more modular design than the T-72.

modular??

i said it in my post, T-90 is improved. but how much??

We no longer need to take out the turret to replace the engines. The T-90 turret is welded. So, it can't be done on the battlefield anyway.

The T-90 no longer takes as much time as the T-72.

it all boils down to how much time is taken to replace the engine. i have given figures for T-72M1 (24hrs/12hrs - peace/war time). i gave links to support Arjun's replacement in under 2 hrs too.

would be glad to hear how much a T-90 takes to replace it's engine??

Also this,

1KW is plenty. Most of LCA's Avionics will need 1KW. Also, LCA cannot give more than 2 KW. So, if a radar, jammer, MC, fly by wire and all other electronics can be managed with 2KW,

we were talking APU on a tank!!!

besides i like to be enlightened on this too. avionics in an LCA has many systems -

1. HUD.

2. MFD.

3. RADAR and it's cooling system.

4. FBW & CLAW - mission computer.

4. FLIR.

5. HMD.

6. Processors for each system.

7. SPJ/EW suites.

8. NVG sights.

9. SAR.

10. various other displays

among others. what i have listed here is just some of them. if you want to know more, please do go thro here -

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downloads/Tejas-Radiance.pdf

are you saying all this is accomplished in 2kw?? an ALQ 99 jamming pod requires 6.8kw!!

you want people to beleive it!! sorry.

then 1KW on the T-90 is a LOT.

i have already given links. only the APS like Shtora and Arena have power requirement of 1kw!!! didn't you read it?? what about the rest of the electronics?? particularly because T-90 is already underpowered.

So, a superior APU means the tank is automatically superior? What a joke.

you can have a hearty laugh. but you missed the context of my above line. that post was about the importance APU in a tank.

besides i have already given you links about pak T-84s. it not only sports an APU/1200 HP ENGINE but also Shtora!!! the APU on T-84 powers it's electronics as a normal MBT should while our T-90s do not.

funny you missed all that.

Also, if the APU is powered ON the Al-Khalid cannot use its engine because that defeats the purpose of using the APU and viceversa.

how??

an APU on Al khalid tank (or any tank) only complements a high powered main engine which takes care of the basic mobility leaving the rest for the APU!!

Also, the APU can only be used when the tanks have a defensive posture.

are you saying they never idle in enemy territory?? they keep running all the time?? how are you going to refuel them??

The IA want to split Pakistan into 2 in the first week of the war and then move North towards Islamabad and South towards Karachi. What part in that will be defensive??? No T-90 will be sitting on our borders staring across with the APU ON.

makes up for a good movie script. with T-90s it is not possible!!! with so many issues unresolved 11 years after induction.

besides your logic that APU means only "defensive" posture is funny. the fact that it (APU) only releives the main engine to support the "mobility" of the tank, adding to it's reserve power - is lost on you.

The Pakistanis will be defensive on all fronts mainly because of the superiority of our air force, they have a greater need of the APU.

great logic!!! besides you are the one who has been talking about the "importance" of fuel saved and the logistics there on!!!

Their hunter killer systems will be obsolete once we have completely networked our forces in the near future. There is no place for a stationary tank after that.

UAVs are your primary source for the intel. UAVs can be shot down and with that your source is gone!!! besides T-90s do not have BMS!!! reason - no space!!! and no APU!!! underpowered engine!!!

even if there is money it can't be done easily.

It will be silly if a SAR equipped UCAV is able to detect all stationary enemy tanks in a 600sq km area. The World's progressed beyond tanks. So, don't cling on to the APU so much. It's like shooting our own foot.

the importance of APU is not lost on any army including IA which is why they asked for it in Arjun!!! no matter how the world progresses - as long as tanks are in action, APU is a bare necessity!!! a fact, which you choose to down play to support T-90.

Also, about the Arena and Shtora. They have been used on similar tanks with weaker engines and still managed to be incredible.

incredible!!! why IA wants SAAB LEDS 150??? remember it is similar to Arena in terms of "active kill" system meaning will weigh similar. adding more burden to the underpowered T-90s. =xD

Why is that ironic? If the army needs modifications they will go to DRDO since Russia has provided ToT. It is DRDO's job to support the Army, not the other way round.

ironic because as you said, we paid "life cycle support" among other things which i have enumerated in the past.

Nope. Arjun will use NERA, after it comes out.

NERA will come when ready. till that time, if IA requires it will have an ERA.

 

[samarsingh]

Originally Posted by Agantrope

Chankya is no way related to war and he is with the political science, rather it is Sun Tzu, read your history books properly.

I mentioned Sun Tzu...
and Chanakya is related to war...there are chapters dedicated specially to war and diplomacy in the Arthshastra....perhaps you should read a bit more of history...
I will give you the links..
Boesche, Roger (January 2003). "Kautilya's Arthaśāstra on War and Diplomacy in Ancient India". The Journal of Military History 67 (1): 9–37.
ISSN 0899-3718.
its published in journal of military history....so I guess that closes the argument..

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_military_history/v067/67.1boesche.html

I meant atleast wikipedia; Ok, alexander the great, do you fight with his old sword now, grow up my boy, T-90 is a enhanced old T-72s nothing more than that and I am not here to teach you the WW2, there are better sources than me in net.

Agreed

I suggested you to read more about tanks and reply, dont get carried away with the promotional videos from manufacturer, i have been in arjun for more than 5 times when in IA's NCC Wing; i know about it a little more than what you know.

I will read more about tanks...btw I only criticed the claimed "indigenous" status of Arjun and the amount of time the project took....never said T90 was superior in Performance....great to know you've been in Arjun must have been a proud moment....

 

[sayareakd]

never said T90 was superior in Performance....great to know you've been in Arjun must have been a proud moment....

singh please tell me if you or your son to be in inferior tank at the time war.

 

[samarsingh]

singh please tell me if you or your son to be in inferior tank at the time war.

this is a que you should be putting to Indian Army, they chose the T90
btw at the time of war a soldier will not make demands, he will follow orders.....

 

[sayareakd]

this is a que you should be putting to Indian Army, they chose the T90
btw at the time of war a soldier will not make demands, he will follow orders.....

dont evade the question answer it.

 

[BunBunCake]

@Guys, this discussion isn't going anywhere.
Kunal and Prada, provide sources to back your information up. ALL of these comments sound like subjective ones.

 

[Armand2REP]

@Guys, this discussion isn't going anywhere.
Kunal and Prada, provide sources to back your information up. ALL of these comments sound like subjective ones.

True enough, this thread isn't Arjun vs T-90. It is what the new T-90M is going to look like. For that we have to go to the source back to Russia. So far we know it will have Thales thermal imagers and communications. A new development might be the addition of French powerpacks and transmissions as they have been offered to Russia for the T-72 and T-90.

http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/mainnews/2010/0623/13204963/detail.shtml

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/customer/sesm/pdf/Powerpack_ESM350.pdf


It looks like T-90M is turning into a French-German hybrid.

 

[samarsingh]

dont evade the question answer it.

btw at the time of war a soldier will not make demands, he will follow orders.....
same goes for me and you, my son or your son...if a part of army
look here my friend, I think the army is more concerned about the lives of its soldiers...I think it would never jeopardise that....as far as T90's are concerned...we may have some contractual obligations....we need to honour those...can only blame DRDO cos it did not produce results by 2000....
Pakistan had deployed T80's by 1995...what did u want, wait forever for Arjun or do the wise thing...opt for T90...which was an improvement of T72's which we already had..
now I ask you a question
please tell me at the time of war whether you or your son will prefer to be in a tank which exists or in a tank which may take another few years...the Army didn't have much option in 2000.
thankfully it has now....and Arjun should be deployed...by all means....

 

[Agantrope]

Originally Posted by Agantrope


I mentioned Sun Tzu...
and Chanakya is related to war...there are chapters dedicated specially to war and diplomacy in the Arthshastra....perhaps you should read a bit more of history...
I will give you the links..
Boesche, Roger (January 2003). "Kautilya's Arthaśāstra on War and Diplomacy in Ancient India". The Journal of Military History 67 (1): 9–37.
ISSN 0899-3718.
its published in journal of military history....so I guess that closes the argument..

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_military_history/v067/67.1boesche.html


Agreed


I will read more about tanks...btw I only criticed the claimed "indigenous" status of Arjun and the amount of time the project took....never said T90 was superior in Performance....great to know you've been in Arjun must have been a proud moment....

Leave the Arthasastra part it is pure OT here.

Coming to T-90 electronics, some Gyan Guru here mentioned that 1KW APU is plenty for it. I just got the info from my BR friend that APU of Arjun is >18KW. Think of the electronics that can be used in T-90 with a 1KW APU, not even a Mission computer with 6 LCD will operate that, leave alone the AC problem for now. Arjun electronics are hybrid from the Israelis one. T-90 are using the french electronics which are not upto the mark that are used in the Arjun

FYI, GSQR was changed thrice during the so called delayed period of 30 years time.

The time when i was arjun it was not as matured as it is today! (before 5 years)

P.S I have never critised the buying of T-90s; but i am against the dumping of the Arjun

 

[samarsingh]

True enough, this thread isn't Arjun vs T-90. It is what the new T-90M is going to look like. For that we have to go to the source back to Russia. So far we know it will have Thales thermal imagers and communications. A new development might be the addition of French powerpacks and transmissions as they have been offered to Russia for the T-72 and T-90.
It looks like T-90M is turning into a French-German hybrid.

It is

here's an article....
source
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...nd-want-more-security-cooperation-with-Moscow

Paris - Germany, France and Poland are eager to deepen cooperation with Russia on security matters, German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said in France on Wednesday.

'We want to elevate cooperation with Russia on security policy to another level,' Westerwelle said after meeting with his French, Polish and Russian counterparts in Paris. 'These talks have contributed to that end.'

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he and his colleagues discussed the establishment of a joint European Union-Russia commission on security and foreign policy, as proposed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

'Everyone here will try to have the EU accept this initiative,' Lavrov said.

Polish Foreign Minister Radoslav Sikorski said his country was in favour of deepening the dialogue between the EU and Russia on security, if this led to a solution to 'frozen conflicts' such as that around the breakaway Moldavian territory of Transnistria


a detailed look at this cooperation...can be found here...
http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2010/06/23/germany_russia_getting_closer_99029.html


thanks for the videos.... I think we are going to see more German- French-Russian cooperation...in most defence related aspects...

 

[samarsingh]

P.S I have never critised the buying of T-90s; but i am against the dumping of the Arjun[/B]

oh the Arjun would never be dumped..it should never be dumped....def going to be our first choice MBT in future...

 

[Agantrope]

oh the Arjun would never be dumped..it should never be dumped....def going to be our first choice MBT in future...

This BS is again to delay the tank projects IMO