@p2p
you have a propensity to make "tall" claims and when asked for backup source, you either sidestep or skip it altogether. this is a public forum and the debate needs to be based on "facts" available in the public domain rather than on "imaginations". i would request you to base your comments, particularly - the claims, on reality. otherwise it has the danger of "misleading" members and people reading them.
this is no advice!! just a humble request.
My grandfather was the ex director and scientist of DRDO, he worked under Dr. Abdul Kalam in the Agni program. My Mom's best friend was an air force technician for 20 years. One more of my Mom's friends has a high position in ISRO and is one of the head scientists of the deep space satellite comm center in Byalalu, you have seen his pictures too. I have even seen the Chandrayaan satellite being assembled in Bangalore at the HQ.
Heck, my basketball coach worked in the MEG for 20 years. He asked me to join the air force.
Internationally, I know a scientist, sailor and administrative manager who worked in the US Navy for 30 years, went on to work for Lockheed Martin for 4 years and that was in the US FMS(Foreign Military sales) program. I am currently playing an online game with a friend who works in the US Navy as a Carrier pilot. He is currently at sea in the Atlantic, so I can only be in touch with him by his official USN email as of today.
Unfortunately I cannot give you links for what ever these contacts of mine say and you will not believe it without me having a Military Professional Tag. The only time I did mention about my contacts was when everybody was discussing about the FMS program. My contact said the FMS program is just a contractual obligation, nothing really happens. It is just a bunch of guys including himself who show up for tea. The only thing positive about these trips is they get to visit different countries regularly.
His words: If it looks like a C-130 then it is a C-130.
He also said India may get special consideration and that can be written in the contract to benefit India, similar to the Nuclear deal.
everybody knows T-90S is an enhanced version of T-72. it was just a change of name to distinguish it from T-72A. the only chages made were -
1. a new improved turret.
2. taking the FCS from T-80 which was better.
3. K-5 ERA tiles.
The MKI is the same in that respect.
read here -
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_t90.html
this is a fact. you are adding your own imagination to it. engine remains where it was and i would be glad to be corrected on this.
now to the engine change -
if you look at the pages from 46 onwards in this -
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...02Zkqq&sig=AHIEtbTMw_PgfohUmXgXkmpuG9jQdZLFJg
it does not talk about "turret removal" of T-72M1. i guess that seems to be the truth. IOW while T-90 engine change time may have improved but will still be "high".
now lets look at the this -
http://translate.google.com/transla...tary.tomsk.ru/blog/topic-294.html&sl=ru&tl=en
it speaks of
6hrs time for engine change for V84 series engine. that would give the right indication. isn't it???
hence i deduce, T-90 engine replacement will take a minimum 3-4 times that of Arjun. if you want to prove me wrong then i would be delighted
provided you back it up with some credible source.
Well, I stand corrected on the T-72M.
The problem is you are using 10 year old information as your source. If you ask for open source links now I cannot give it. Nobody can. The T-90 engine isn't the V84, it is the V92 series. The V-84 exists in some old T-90As. Only the army or DRDo can come out with the actual figures.
To what info?
we are not talking of some servicing issue here. we are talking "putting" systems in T-90 to make them better than "inferior".
besides DRDO is not "servicer". they are an R&D organisation. OFB perhaps might do the servicing.
Service as in "work" for the army, and not "servicing" in the literal term. DRDO works for the Indian Armed Forces. The Indian Armed Forces works for India. If the Army tells DRDO to do something, they have to do it. It says so in their constitution, Contract. Else DRDO will not earn anything.
Boeing's YF-23 lost to the YF-22. So, right now Boeing is taking leads from Lockheed Martin when it comes to the F-22 program. They are doing whatever Lockheed tells them to do. They are doing it because they get some money out of it. It is a contractual obligation for LM to outsource work to Boeing. Had the YF-23 been selected the situation would have been the opposite.
If the army wants DRDO to build them an AC, they have to build it. Else the army will simply source the work to some one else. It is pure business. Like I said, there is no place for pride in business.
how is it connected?? besides ADA/DRDO are partner developers and HAL is the manufacturer of LCA. besides all are "indian" entities.
It is business. HAL learnt how to build aircraft from the Russians. So, now that we have the LCA you are saying, lets screw all other aircraft because they are not Indian. If the air force chooses Gripen and junks the LCA, then HAL "have" to say they will not build the Gripens in India?????? That's not how business works.
If DRDO got a contract to fix T-90s AC, then DRDO will do it. Do you know why? It is because DRDO will earn more monies. Business. It has nothing to do with pride.
it does not matter whether external or internal. they are needed and they have to be there. 1kw is not sufficient as established unless you want your T-90S to remain in their barracks or willing to spend both money and men.
No Hunter killer ability. Meaning T-90 does not shoot the gun when stationary. So, 1KW is enough for what is required.
french is no problem as you said. what are the other western electronics???
The Al Khalid have different prototypes. Some have Italian FCS, some have French FCS and some East bloc. Some have the Perkins engine with a German or British transmission, one has a German engine too.
Some aspects like navigation, GPS is supposedly Italian. Then we have a lot of electronics like processors and wiring that is sourced from Germany.
Also, the French are not as easy going to the Pakistanis as they are to us. They vociferously supported Indian Nuclear tests, but not Pakistani tests.
The Al Khalid was supposed to get the French engines. But they were cancelled after the 1998 tests. That's when the Al Khalid started getting Ukranian engines and other stuff.
i remember you were claiming, a few months back, that Arjun will be "CAPPED" at 124 units. remember?? and result??
This was as claimed by the ex army chief. I only echoed what he said. Another 124 silenced critics.
also you were saying authoritatively IA's future MBT will be T-95 and it will come out in march/april 2010. remember?? and result??
These are rumours. Also been cancelled.
So, I can't help it.
so lets wait. i don't want to be in your imaginary world.
Everything in the military is imaginary and speculation. That's why I don't support Ajai Shukla's views on the T-90.
no justification for the T-90S and its unresolved issues.
This is your imagination. How do you know?
The T-90 has an AC already developed by Russia. The Pakistani Al-Khalid may also get AC in the next version.
IA unfortunately does not beleive in that. they are grappling to put them. hope they are successful with DRDO.
So, Pakistanis can do anything with their T-types. We cannot do anything with ours. This may only be your view of DRDO.
Pakistan is no push over. they have chinese help too in terms of SAT imagery and their air defence and artillery is good.
Chinese Sat imagery?? They get it late, if they do. Their air defence su*ks. They have nothing. Their artillery is not precision without decent networking. Also, you are discounting the ability of our EW systems. In the Corps formation, we will have nearly 300 to 400 vehicles particularly employed to process and jam enemy signals. The Pakistanis are no push over, but we are overkill in some aspects like EW.
ofcourse it is team effort but each team needs to have the "best" equipment to fight. Arjun's case rests on superiority.
Not necessary. You don't need the "best" equipment to fight, you only need the most "useful." The T-90 is useful, the Arjun is not, at least as of now.
and T-90 passed??? face reality. i have given enough links.
the problems that existed wrt T-90 in 2000 exist even now!!! Arjun's problems were solved in 2005.
This is based on your assumption that the army did nothing.
I am talking about the ERA on T-90S, not T-90M.
yet gives only 846/910 hp!!! arjun has 1400 hp.
Torque is different from horse power. Look at the weight difference too.
Yes. We must not try to be the best. Mediocre is enough.
exactly. reason why T-90 is obsolete. reason why Russian army refuses.
Eh! I was talking about something else. Not T-90.
good for them. anyway AF will take care.
That makes no sense.
remeber the "artillery" tender. the army drew such "unrealistic specs" - some of them withdrew!!!!
That seems like an excuse. US companies pulled out of the deal. It only means there were some illegal behind the scenes action and they left. CBI is having a good time. Unrealistic specs was only an excuse. A US company gave "time" as an excuse when the helicopter deal was cancelled. CBI was happy at that time too. Israel is right on top of the bribery accusation list.
My USN contact said it takes Boeing only a few weeks to answer a RFP. When the deal was cancelled the time frame was actually more than enough. If they pull an all nighter, Boeing can answer RFPs at a much faster rate than a few weeks. It comes from experience.
strange when it comes to DRDO - IA wants "everything" proven not so with Russia. great no??
It is unfortunate, but the home R&D bases get the most unkindest cut of all. It is true for all countries. That's the primary reason why none of the American ship builders are setting up infrastructure for diesel electric subs in the US. They say the kind of specs the USN will enforce on them will be unachievable compared to requirements the existing European ship builders will get in respect to funding.
The IN also gave our ship builders some of the strictest stealth requirements in the world. It is more lax with the Russians.
Look. I have no issues with the Arjun. You are not thinking like a general, you are thinking like one of those peace activists, who want peace no matter what. We don't have the Arjun, we have the T-90. Think about the strengths of the T-90 compared to Arjun because when the Pakistanis come we will have the T-90s and not the Arjuns.
You are acting like a little child who wants the bigger flashier toy right NOW. But you are mad that you are not getting it. Give it more time, there are still issues with the Arjun that need sorted out. It is not viable to shift to another tank when there are already 4 other tanks in service. In 5 years, the Arjun will have better prospects as the old T-72s and T-55s will be phased out. Arjun Mk2, at the rate it is going, is a sure prospect. Like Kunal sir said, the future belongs to Arjun and T-90. T-90s will be inducted first and then the Arjun. By that time the inducted Arjuns will be Mk2s. That's the only difference.
I am ending my discussion with that. Anything more and I will only be repeating myself.
