Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

Even I don't mind Arjun going for an unmanned turret with 3 crew or, big deal, 4 will also do. An unmanned turret with autoloader will reduce the weight of the tank to T-90s standard, more or less. The logistics foot print will decrease and the tank will perform better with more HP to burn.

I think they are trying the same with the M1A3. Not sure about the dimensions of the turret, but the gun will have an autoloader.

EDIT:

The next generation of AMBTs may be a 140mm with unmanned turret..

There was talk of using the MCS's 120mm gun with autoloader which is lighter and more deadly. The gun itself shaves off a ton in weight compared to the M256 and then the turret itself is lighter which will reduce the overall weight by at least 3 tons. Also rubbery tracks included to increase durability.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There was talk of using the MCS's 120mm gun with autoloader which is lighter and more deadly. The gun itself shaves off a ton in weight compared to the M256 and then the turret itself is lighter which will reduce the overall weight by at least 3 tons. Also rubbery tracks included to increase durability.

Nothing is more deadlier than 140 & 152..
Actually Germans did produce operational 140mm gun back in early 90s but unable to mount successfully on present generation turrets of Abrams and Leopards..

Now the unmanned turret tech is mature enough therefore mounting a bigger gun is possible..

 

[ppgj]

Nothing is more deadlier than 140 & 152..
Actually Germans did produce operational 140mm gun back in early 90s but unable to mount successfully on present generation turrets of Abrams and Leopards..

Now the unmanned turret tech is mature enough therefore mounting a bigger gun is possible..

120/125 mm guns fit in a modern tank because the "recoil" of the gun has been standardised and mastered. AFAIK, considering the tanks need to be "optimally" sized and the immense recoil issues with 140/152 mm guns - it does not seem realistic to put them on modern tanks. i guess that must have been one of the issues with T-95s. it needs great engineering effort besides the beasts will need more maintainence care.

anyway just some random thoughts. would be happy to know from you if this infact is an issue of importance.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

120/125 mm guns fit in a modern tank because the "recoil" of the gun has been standardised and mastered. AFAIK, considering the tanks need to be "optimally" sized and the immense recoil issues with 140/152 mm guns - it does not seem realistic to put them on modern tanks. i guess that must have been one of the issues with T-95s. it needs great engineering effort besides the beasts will need more maintainence care.

anyway just some random thoughts. would be happy to know from you if this infact is an issue of importance.

Also the weight..
For we Indians Arjun mk-1 is enough for next 30 years..
T-95 is a good tank on paper, If T-95 was operational we would have seen variants of Abrams & Leopard with 140mm in near future..
But for now T-95 with its 152mm is halted therefore their is no rush for 140mm..
Right now Arjun 120mm gun is most powerful in Asia..

 

[ppgj]

Also the weight..

sir, with ground pressure taken care and powered enough for the beast - will that be an issue??

even Arjun with these issues taken care can outmaneur and outrun T-90. even T-95 was similar in weight to Arjun or it's western counterparts.

For we Indians Arjun mk-1 is enough for next 30 years..

Mark 2 should last much more unless ofcourse tanks go out of fashion. :happy_2:

T-95 is a good tank on paper, If T-95 was operational we would have seen variants of Abrams & Leopard with 140mm in near future..
But for now T-95 with its 152mm is halted therefore their is no rush for 140mm..

agree sir.

Right now Arjun 120mm gun is most powerful in Asia..

:happy_2:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

sir, with ground pressure taken care and powered enough for the beast - will that be an issue??

even Arjun with these issues taken care can outmaneur and outrun T-90. even T-95 was similar in weight to Arjun or it's western counterparts.

These disadvantages include increased turret volume, potential increase in hull volume and increase in weight, Longer guns limit the ability for a vehicle to turn its turret. The argument is that these increases in volume and weight do not justify the increased lethality on manned turret but for unmanned turret it is possible..

http://forums.joltonline.com/showth...ems-Encountered-with-Higher-Caliber-Tank-Guns

 

[p2prada]

Dunno about the T-95's 152mm. The best sources still said it will be 135mm. The existing gun on T-90 is 52 Cal.

The T_90's muzzle velocity is nearly ~1800m/s compared to Arjun's ~1700m/s. So, I don't think the Arjun has the most powerful gun in this region.

 

[p2prada]

The 2A46M-4 is 52 Cal and fires KE shells at 1760m/s compared to Arjun's 52 Cal with KE shell at 1650m/s. We also have access to the more powerful 2A46M-5 which can be fitted on the T-90 as production continues.

There is also a 56 Cal version for the T-90. It is based on the 2A46M-5 gun.

 

[p2prada]

Multiple sources;

Chamber pressure can be reached from here for T-90;
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

and here for Arjun along with Muzzle velocity for KE penetrators;
http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

The 56cal on the T-90 was mentioned by Zraver. Also, our T-90s already carry the 2A46M-5 series of guns and not the 2A46M-4. We currently have the 52cal gun.

The Muzzle velocity for 2A46 series gives many sources on forums. All say 1760m/s.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Multiple sources;

Chamber pressure can be reached from here for T-90;
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

and here for Arjun along with Muzzle velocity for KE penetrators;
http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

The 56cal on the T-90 was mentioned by Zraver. Also, our T-90s already carry the 2A46M-5 series of guns and not the 2A46M-4. We currently have the 52cal gun.

The Muzzle velocity for 2A46 series gives many sources on forums. All say 1760m/s.

Don't confuse between Muzzle velocity of Ammo with chamber pressure of a gun..

We also have access to the more powerful 2A46M-5 which can be fitted on the T-90 as production continues.
There is also a 56 Cal version for the T-90. It is based on the 2A46M-5 gun.

Their is no 56cal ( Length of the gun pls.. ) in Russia, Presently Indian and Russians are using 52cal 2A46M gun on T-90S...

Dunno about the T-95's 152mm. The best sources still said it will be 135mm. The existing gun on T-90 is 52 Cal.

T-95 is the reason why Western come up with Abrams M1A3 and German Leopard 3 in past..

In a July 2008 article in Jane's Defence Weekly, analyst Christopher F. Foss stated that the tank is expected to have a 152 mm gun with an automatic loader in the chassis

The fact is Russian used 152mm gun in SU-152 ( TIGER KILLER ) in WW2 and its advance version was ready back in 80s, though 135mm is very possible..

So, I don't think the Arjun has the most powerful gun in this region.

Comparison to L44 & L55..

A. M256 is 120mm American variant of Rheinmetall 120-millimeter L44 of 44 Caliber
Barrel length is 5,301 making it a 44cal

B. L55 is updated version of L44 120mm of 55 cal
Barrel length is 6600mm

C. Arjun Gun is 120mm rifled version which gives better accuracy,
Length of the Ajun barrel is 6050 mm making it close to 55 cal



Comparison to Russian 2A46M of 52CAL

Arjun 120mm have better chamber pressure than Russian 2A46M which makes Arjun Gun more powerful..

Russian T-90/72/80
Maximum pressure, crusher, Mpa 340 420 500
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2382&catid=314

Indian Arjun
The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa.
http://www.indian-military.org/army/armour/main-battle-tanks/247-arjun.html

The above details proved that Arjun have higher chamber pressure than Russian guns and longer than both Russian and western L44 and a bit short than L55, Therefore its the most powerful gun in Asia, Further my friend, Arjun use Single piece ammo, therefore we can use any Western Rod with modified sabot for Arjun Gun.
Over all ARJUN GUN is the best available to IA..

 

[ppgj]

well. T-90 gun affords a muzzle velocity of about 1700m/sec or a little plus as per fofanov.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

unfortunately the "slightly" higher muzzle velocity the gun affords is offset by the length of the projectile!!! at 635mm the energy bleed during travel and the terminal velocity it can not hold "due" its shorter length defeats its slightly superior muzzle velocity.

also a point to note the ranges. it affords a 650 mm armour penetration at 2000meters!!! no way comparable to the Arjun which has a greater range and a higher penetration.

not to forget the accuracy afforded by the 120mm Arjun's "rifled" gun!!

Arjun fires longer rods with better accuracy at a higher range. kunal sir, can you confirm Arjun's unitary longer rod lengths? IMO they would not be less than 730mm!!! it can fire all western rounds AFAIK.

simply T-90 gun is no match for Arjun's.

this fact is known to the Russians which is why they are trying to put "unitary" longer rods in a new autoloader as per Igor's blog (T-90M SPECS) i gave a link of in the past. this rod is rumoured to be 730mm (is this the one fofanov mentions in the above link - 3BM-42/44M??)

the present autoloader in T-90S due to its dimensional limitations can only fire 635mm rods that too in dual piece ammo. no longer rods!!

some good info on the guns here -

Currently the ammunition for 2A46M gun still corresponds to the level of threat that existed 15 years ago, and there are certain technical hurdles, primarily the autoloader dimensions, that prevent simple solutions to the problem.

Solutions do exist. These include a complex of deep modernization measures utilising an increased-power 125mm 2A82 gun, new ammunition with 740mm battle parts, and redesigned autoloader to accomodate those. There is also the project of radical increase in main gun caliber to 152mm (2A83?). Given the current geopolitical climate and Russian defence spending priorities, any efforts in this direction are unlikely to materialize in nearest years.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

also some good info here -

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t90.htm

 

[p2prada]

Don't confuse between Muzzle velocity of Ammo with chamber pressure of a gun..

Where did I lead you to believe that? I mentioned the chamber pressure in one of the comments in my post in reply to Nitesh.

Their is no 56cal ( Length of the gun pls.. ) in Russia, Presently Indian and Russians are using 52cal 2A46M gun on T-90S...

The 56 Cal gun was mentioned by Zraver.

Arjun 120mm have better chamber pressure than Russian 2A46M which makes Arjun Gun more powerful..

According to other sources, the 2A46M-2 t0 5 has a chamber pressure of 650MPa or 6500 bars.

Also, your measurement of Arjun's gun caliber is wrong.
At 6050mm, the caliber of a 120mm gun is near 51 Cal and not 55.

Further my friend, Arjun use Single piece ammo, therefore we can use any Western Rod with modified sabot for Arjun Gun.

I doubt we are getting any single piece ammo from the west. We will have to design them all in house.

Anyway the Arjun needs single piece ammo because it will need the increased weight to deliver a good hit. A single piece ammo on the T-90 is impossible because of the autoloader. But Russian shells are better than Indian shells, which makes a difference.

At 51Cal and a chamber pressure of 6120bars, the gun is weaker than the T-90s gun at 52 cals and 6500bars.

The difference lies in the shells. The American L44 shoots the DU rounds which are more deadly than any existing rounds in the world. This makes the gun more deadly. The Russian 3BM46 is the deadliest round we have.

Also, I can assure you, the Arjun's gun isn't enough to get through the Al-Khalid which has the same protection as our current T-90S.

Arjun is already set to have its gun replaced with a smoothbore gun. We will need a new gun for the T-90 too which could be the L-56 Zraver was talking about.

We will need heavier and longer penetrators if we are to get through the AK's frontal armour. That's why the Russians are developing the 3BM46 and some more advanced rounds. The M829A3 is the best KE penetrator and also the longest and heaviest APFSDS shell in the world.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

well. T-90 gun affords a muzzle velocity of about 1700m/sec or a little plus as per fofanov.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

unfortunately the "slightly" higher muzzle velocity the gun affords is offset by the length of the projectile!!! at 635mm the energy bleed during travel and the terminal velocity it can not hold "due" its shorter length defeats its slightly superior muzzle velocity.

also a point to note the ranges. it affords a 650 mm armour penetration at 2000meters!!! no way comparable to the Arjun which has a greater range and a higher penetration.

not to forget the accuracy afforded by the 120mm Arjun's "rifled" gun!!

Arjun fires longer rods with better accuracy at a higher range. kunal sir, can you confirm Arjun's longer rod lengths? IMO they would not be less than 730mm!!! it can fire all western rounds AFAIK.

simply T-90 gun is no match for Arjun's.

the present autoloader in T-90S due to its dimensional limitations can only fire 635mm rods that too in dual piece ammo. no longer rods!!

The DRDO round is made of tungsten alloy, the size of the rod is not given but the total length of the round is 940mm, it is obvious by length that the rod may be longer than Russian rounds still the muzzle velocity of Russian rounds are around 1700m/s but again the exported ones ( Mostly ) are degraded ones..

 

[chadha]

i don't think T-95 IS A GOOD IDEA

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Where did I lead you to believe that? I mentioned the chamber pressure in one of the comments in my post in reply to Nitesh.

Chamber pressure can be reached from here for T-90;
and here for Arjun along with Muzzle velocity for KE penetrators;

The 56 Cal gun was mentioned by Zraver.

What is the length of the gun?

According to other sources, the 2A46M-2 t0 5 has a chamber pressure of 650MPa or 6500 bars.

Not operational also provide the link..

Also, your measurement of Arjun's gun caliber is wrong.
At 6050mm, the caliber of a 120mm gun is near 51 Cal and not 55.

Read my previous post..

I doubt we are getting any single piece ammo from the west. We will have to design them all in house.

Actually we already have, also i mentioned abt it on page no 10..
Search for DM-43 & 56..

Anyway the Arjun needs single piece ammo because it will need the increased weight to deliver a good hit. A single piece ammo on the T-90 is impossible because of the autoloader. But Russian shells are better than Indian shells, which makes a difference.

Why it need to be a single ammo to deliver a good hit?

At 51Cal and a chamber pressure of 6120bars, the gun is weaker than the T-90s gun at 52 cals and 6500bars.

What is leangth of Russian 52 cal?
Compare it with Arjun`s gun..

The difference lies in the shells. The American L44 shoots the DU rounds which are more deadly than any existing rounds in the world. This makes the gun more deadly. The Russian 3BM46 is the deadliest round we have.

Exactly my point, Its not the gun but the ammo..
Also we the Indian Army use DRDO made shells in T-72 as well as T-90..

Also, I can assure you, the Arjun's gun isn't enough to get through the Al-Khalid which has the same protection as our current T-90S.

Since when?
K5= Chinese ERA
Even Chinese dont use it, they put some-kind of composite material in front of Type-99s..

Arjun is already set to have its gun replaced with a smoothbore gun. We will need a new gun for the T-90 too which could be the L-56 Zraver was talking about.

Research abt challenger 120mm rifled bore..
Arjun accuracy is way beyond type & T-tanks..

We will need heavier and longer penetrators if we are to get through the AK's frontal armour. That's why the Russians are developing the 3BM46 and some more advanced rounds. The M829A3 is the best KE penetrator and also the longest and heaviest APFSDS shell in the world.

We have the tungsten rod given by DRDO is very powerful when compare to the exported Russian rounds..
Thats one reason why we use DRDO stuff on T-TANKs..

 

[ppgj]

The DRDO round is made of tungsten alloy, the size of the rod is not given but the total length of the round is 940mm, it is obvious by length that the rod may be longer than Russian rounds still the muzzle velocity of Russian rounds are around 1700m/s but again the exported ones ( Mostly ) are degraded ones..

thanks sir.

but according to OFB website it is 994mm. is it typo??

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/23.htm

also take a look at these -

guess this must be for T-90. check the Muzzle velocity of 1660 m/s.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm

T-72 rounds. muzzle velocity 1500-1550 m/s.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/26.htm

 

[Kunal Biswas]

thanks sir.

but according to OFB website it is 994mm. is it typo??

It must be an error, Hesh round is 996mm long and AP is 940mm..
http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/23.htm

also take a look at these -

guess this must be for T-90. check the Muzzle velocity of 1660 m/s.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm

T-72 rounds. muzzle velocity 1500-1550 m/s.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/26.htm

^Must be old data..
http://www.drdo.gov.in/products/fsapds.htm

Muzzle velocity must be same ( 1650-80 m/s ) for T-Tanks and Arjun AP rounds..

 

[p2prada]

What is the length of the gun?

Should be ~7m if you simply calculate using the math we already know.

Anyway, this guy said it,

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/member.php/260-zraver

Not operational also provide the link..

You mean the gun with 6500bar pressure.

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapons/Russian_Tank_Guns.htm

You need to go down a bit till you reach 2A46M-5 on the second link.

Read my previous post..

You mean this
A. M256 is 120mm American variant of Rheinmetall 120-millimeter L44 of 44 Caliber
Barrel length is 5,301 making it a 44cal

B. L55 is updated version of L44 120mm of 55 cal
Barrel length is 6600mm

C. Arjun Gun is 120mm rifled version which gives better accuracy,
Length of the Ajun barrel is 6050 mm making it close to 55 cal

Yeah! You got it wrong. At 6050mm the gun cal is 51cal and not 55.

6050/120 = 50.41

If Arjun's barrel length was 6500mm then the gun cal would have been close to 55.

Actually we already have, also i mentioned abt it on page no 10..
Search for DM-43 & 56..

Those are ancient compared to modern tank armour. They will not go through any of the newer Pakistani MBTs.

Why it need to be a single ammo to deliver a good hit?

Single piece ammo gives it additional weight at point of impact since the primary charge and penetrator are encased together. Additional weight increases the KE of the shell and thus gives a better hit than a 2 piece system.

One piece ammo is good on the Arjun because the gun is not as powerful as the 2A46M-5.

What is leangth of Russian 52 cal?
Compare it with Arjun`s gun..

The gun length of the 2A46M-5 is nearly 6600mm while the barrel length is 6000mm. The barrel length of the Arjun is 6050mm. But the T-90 gun is rated at 52cal which effectively takes 6500mm as the length during calculation.

The 2A46M-5 is rated at 52 Cals and has a higher chamber pressure than the Arjun's gun, which explains the higher muzzle velocity.

Exactly my point, Its not the gun but the ammo..
Also we the Indian Army use DRDO made shells in T-72 as well as T-90..

Are our shells as good as the Russian or American equivalents? Pretty much the most important question.

Since when?
K5= Chinese ERA
Even Chinese dont use it, they put some-kind of composite material in front of Type-99s..

The AKs are equipped with Kontakt-5s. If they are Ukrainian, then they will be as good. If they are Chinese then they will not be as good as the T-90S.

Research abt challenger 120mm rifled bore..
Arjun accuracy is way beyond type & T-tanks..

Arjun's accuracy is not being contended. Forget about the gun replacement story though. There were rumours of the Arjun gun being replaced with a Rhinemetal version. No takers now.

Anyway, we are definitely going to need more than what Arjun can offer right now against the new Pakistani tanks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Should be ~7m if you simply calculate using the math we already know.

Anyway, this guy said it,

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/member.php/260-zraver

My dear,
U give me his profile link but not what i asked is the length of the gun..

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapons/Russian_Tank_Guns.htm

You need to go down a bit till you reach 2A46M-5 on the second link.

2A46M-5 do have some more pressure than Arjun 120 rifled gun but its still not the best compare to length of the barrel..

You mean this
A. M256 is 120mm American variant of Rheinmetall 120-millimeter L44 of 44 Caliber
Barrel length is 5,301 making it a 44cal

B. L55 is updated version of L44 120mm of 55 cal
Barrel length is 6600mm

C. Arjun Gun is 120mm rifled version which gives better accuracy,
Length of the Ajun barrel is 6050 mm making it close to 55 cal

Yeah! You got it wrong. At 6050mm the gun cal is 51cal and not 55.

6050/120 = 50.41

If Arjun's barrel length was 6500mm then the gun cal would have been close to 55.

When i said exact, i mentioned the word 'close'..

The AKs are equipped with Kontakt-5s. If they are Ukrainian, then they will be as good. If they are Chinese then they will not be as good as the T-90S.
Those are ancient compared to modern tank armour. They will not go through any of the newer Pakistani MBTs.

Look those ERA ( Thickness ) again and compare to K-5 on T-90S, Also i highly doubt abt Armour on AK as they are the exported stuff..
Also (type-96) use no era, those era are made in Pakistan!!

DM43/53 120mm KE Projectile (Rheinmetall)
http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120_mm_Gun
Regarding DM-43 & 53 check the muzzle velocity also the rod than compare them with latest US rounds..


Arjun & T-90s use same ammo of DRDO but when both tanks use foreign rounds both are almost equally capable in terms of muzzle-velocity..

Single piece ammo gives it additional weight at point of impact since the primary charge and penetrator are encased together

No, Its the same thing abt Double piece ammo when inserted into gun 2a46m chamber..

The gun length of the 2A46M-5 is nearly 6600mm while the barrel length is 6000mm. The barrel length of the Arjun is 6050mm. But the T-90 gun is rated at 52cal which effectively takes 6500mm as the length during calculation.

The barrel length is count when we talk abt a gun performance, As u said the most advance Russian gun have little more pressure and its little more shorter than Arjun`s gun..

The 2A46M-5 is rated at 52 Cals and has a higher chamber pressure than the Arjun's gun, which explains the higher muzzle velocity.

To some extend but mostly the ammo..

Are our shells as good as the Russian or American equivalents? Pretty much the most important question.

Archiving a speed of 1650-80m/s with tungsten rod is definitely powerful also equivalent to US M829A1..
Regarding Russian i cant say much coz we don't use much russian ammo in our tanks..

Arjun's accuracy is not being contended. Forget about the gun replacement story though.
Anyway, we are definitely going to need more than what Arjun can offer right now against the new Pakistani tanks.

Present ammo and guns are ok for PA imported Armour, that's the reason we have DRDO ammo with us..

 

[p2prada]

My dear,
U give me his profile link but not what i asked is the length of the gun..

How does it matter? This guy is a known think tank. His credentials are known to nearly everybody in the forum world. I gave his citation only because he may know something we don't.

2A46M-5 do have some more pressure than Arjun 120 rifled gun but its still not the best compare to length of the barrel..

None of it matters when the pressure and muzzle velocity is greater than Arjun's gun. It may not be better than the Arjun in specifications, but it is the more powerful gun out of the 2. Numbers don't lie.

When i said exact, i mentioned the word 'close'..

But, you were not even close. The Arjun's cal is 50.4 and not 55.

DM43/53 120mm KE Projectile (Rheinmetall)
http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120_mm_Gun
Regarding DM-43 & 53 check the muzzle velocity also the rod than compare them with latest US rounds..

Do you really think we get actual shells they use when Russia itself provides us downgraded shells? Also the DM-53 uses a weaker penetrator than the M829A3. The 10kg DU penetrator on the M829A3 at 1555m/s will pack more punch than a 8.35kg Metal penetrator at just a 100m/s higher speed.

Anyway the point being I doubt we have anything as good as these shells.

Archiving a speed of 1650-80m/s with tungsten rod is definitely powerful also equivalent to US M829A1..

The mass of the penetrators matters. If you throw a lighter mass faster does not mean greater penetration. The difference is just 100m/s but the American shells will go through more armour than the other equivalents around the world. The penetration is amplified by the radioactive elements too. DU has a higher density at the same mass compared to metals like Tungsten which makes the difference. So a 10kg DU penetrator will not be equal to a 10Kg Tungsten penetrator.