Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[ppgj]

Yeah! You were not discussing, you were whining.

funny. you asked me to point out a post where you went personal. i did that. now you call it whining. what should i call yours???

debate happens because people's POV differ on the same subject but it needs to be civil and healthy. that is all.

Kunal sir and I were never discussing about the T-90s induction. Neither of has have no problem with it. I identified the problem of sanctions and failed tests to bring out why the T-90 was chosen too and even he agreed with that.

i too agreed with the first lot of T-90 procurement. i differ on the 2nd lot onwards from 2007 when Arjun was ready in 2005 - which you accept.

Nevertheless, You have still been consistently saying the T-90 inductions should not have happened and that the Arjun was a better tank over flimsy details. I am sure you still are.

flimsy details?? you agreed Arjun was ready in 2005 and you have still not answered on the "issues" with T-90s since induction. nice to "flimsy" them when they are the most basic things of a MBT.

as to the last line - make no mistake. i still beleive that.

The T-90s are here to stay. The T-90s and Arjun will be spearhead any attack on our enemies. And any major Arjun inductions will happen once the product is more mature, namely the Mk2. That's all there is to it. If you still want to whine about costs and AC then be my guest it will not get you anywhere.

sure and expected.

I speak to people. So, I have no sources which I can show on a computer screen.

then it is just a hearsay. speculation.

See. Now you understand why I called you a kid. It isn't a personal attack. For you it is all Black and White. If I say something is good, you automatically take it as the other thing is bad. That's not how things work.

i only pointed out your different takes on the KAKTUS.

firstly, you were painting it as silver bullet and said it is next generation to even relikt and even differed with Kunal sir when he was vouching for Relikt.

secondly, as per your post # 361 - you made a startling climbdown.

so nothing to understand here. only shows you have been speaking based on speculations.

There is not going to be as many changes as you think they are. Any electronic upgrade will be from our own house. We will not get Armour ToT. Pretty much the biggest change in the T-90M.

you are missing the point. the "basic" premise for this whole debate was - what constitutes T-90M?? as per the links of various russian sources i gave links of, T-90M sports a new autoloader (to fire longer, single piece rods) and a new turret among other things. and you differed saying only KAKTUS ERA in T-90M constitutes the difference from our T-90S!!!

our TOT was for T-90S. changing it to T-90M means drastic changes costing both a lot of money and time when the T-90S itself costs more.

as for "electronic" upgrades, it was found russian systems were not upto the task and hence thales. even they need AC unit for which the struggle is on to find "space".

This is what I have been saying. It is only your opinion. During the comparative trials, did you see any reports of T-90s failing in the desert?????? It happened in Bikaner, Rajasthan in the month of March.

the question is about hot summers in deserts where the electronics have to work!!! even people faint in T-90s due to its design limitations. reason why they are trying to put an AC unit. is it difficult to understand this??

No. The point is we will not be getting everything mentioned in Igor's post. FCS, Radio, Nav systems, new this, new that etc. This is a Russian upgraded system. It in no way implies we will be getting the same version.

i never said we are getting them. you were the one who has been saying T-90M differs only in KAKTUS ERA and we are getting them.

That's why words called "analysis" exists and there are certain people called "Analysts." A lot of these analysts have been studying armour development and try and get as much information as possible from anybody they can. Then they piece the information together and figure out what's what and what's not. Such people don't rely on a computer screen for information.

Now some of these analysts are on forums. They have a get together and they talk about it. The best part is people who are not analysts can learn from these analysts and understand the current scenario.

"Analysis" and "Analysts" - i guess - do not belong to a different planet!!

speculations don't count.

Now, when these analysts have a high regard for something you don't need a source from some random journo to prove that the product is good.

yes but as long as these "analysts" substantiate that. else that is fiction/imagination.

Everybody in the tank world know the capabilities of the Kaktus and Relikt. Nobody is blind towards its capability.

i only questioned your painting of KAKTUS ERA as some sort of an "invincible" solution. i have decent idea how the ERAs work.

It is an age old problem. It is like saying Windows Operating System. They will tell you they work on Windows, but they will not tell you if it is a 98, Vista or XP.

revealing indeed.

Yes. It is common and some of it is released by the highest echelons of the military society. Whatever information spokesmen and other officials give to the media is fine because the media is particularly called for it. But, if you ask some one personally about operational technology, they will not give out names.

if it is some super secret project which is currently "unavailable" to our adversaries, i would agree with you. BVR today is nothing. even Myanmar may have it.

Impossible to look for it. It is nearly 4 years old and was a passing statement. Still the ToT happened in 2008, as given below.

The Contract was signed in 2000-01 with ToT for other parts, the ToT agreement for gun was signed in 2006 and we got it only in 2008. They had to change their laws for it.

http://www.yourshipbuildingnews.com/news_item.php?newsID=13723

yes. resolved in 2008 but it does not talk about the new gun. it was just a resolution of the "unresolved" issue pertaining to the barrels as per 2001 agreement - meaning the older versions that existed in 2000/2001.

Huh! Why not. They are ready to give us 2A82 gun too.

enlighten me and the rest.

That's why look out for analysts posts.

analysts posts may be interesting and i do value them but it needs to be realistic and not some fiction. i correct myself when substantiated.

The RC-400 and RDY-3 are one and the same. The RC-400 is the export name for RDY-3 with reduced SAR capability. Also, Armand proved a 2.1KW power for a radar specification that does not exist. Which radar on Earth needs 2.1KW for a 400W transmission? LOL

I disproved his assumption in the post after that with the right math involved too. Why else do you think I did not buy his Deagel link which said the Peak consumption is 4KW? It was in print. But I know it is wrong. At 4KW the radar is working at 10% efficiency. That spec makes it the worst radar on the planet.

It is called Analysis.

the basic point in that whole discussion was about "power requirements" for a radar. you were proved wrong.

I said he is more credible and not god. Like I said you see the world as black and white.

when compared to a pak lt. general LODI's article - which you claimed as "backing" of your POV (when this guy is not involved with the development of Arjun) and your disbelief of gen. Shankar roy chowdhary, former COAS (who was involved with arjun development and its induction) - ofcourse, Igor or Ajai are not gods.

This is where you analyse information. Igor gave a report about a new T-90ME meant for export. Then he posted a bit more detailed info on the T-90M. The T-90ME and T-90M are different designations where one is meant for export while one is a Russian upgrade. There is no credible source saying India will be ordering the same tank.

answered previously.

Upgrades are a part and parcel of modernization. Even the Americans know their weapons are already becoming obsolete because of the Kaktus and Relikt ERAs. The ERA is one of the reasons why the M1A3 program exists and includes a bigger gun.

no disagreement here.

To which I have already stated my points regarding his blog.

you are entitled to your view though i differ.

 

[zraver]

i agree with you sir on tolerance, longer life of the latest gun 2A46M5. the question is does indian T-90S have this gun?? all sources only say 2A46M and only one source says it is version 2. also the fact that version 5 was inducted in 2005 while our TOT agreement was signed in 2001.

According to Fofanov, the orignal batch would have been 2A46M2, however it is likely that any of the kits made post 2005 would be the M5 gun as production switched over. The differences are small, the big improvement for the T-90M is the improved auto-loader.

but some people here think that the "only" difference between T-90M and T-90S is the "KAKTUS" ERA. can you clarify that sir?

According to open source material- so take it for what tis worth

The major differences are- Kacktus ERA, Swedish APS, Kachan ceramic inserts, improved auto-loader, true hunter-killer ability, battle management system.

i guess this is the new unitary longer rod. but that would mean massive changes to indian T-90S relating to the turret and the autoloader meaning lots of money and lots of time. and in view of Arjun proving itself, i doubt if that will happen.

Using older rounds would be stupid, the Al Khalid is no joke and you want over-kill not maybe-kill.

Kunal,

I think I've seen it mentioned at 56 caliber (7m), I will do some digging.

As for the 3BM42M and barrel pressures, Fofanov seems pretty secure in his assumptions and I generally don't double guess him.

Prada,

120mm rifled guns are dinosaurs. Even with the 1pc ammuntion the gun it self is derived from the old L11A5 series of guns. Very accurate but limited velocities and short barrel life with modern ammunition. I'll take the T-90M's gun if equipped with the 42M over the Arjun's gun. The Arjun needs the new 120mmL55 from either Germany or South Korea.

Rifling is a disadvantage in modern tanks. modern computers and round designed has removed the need for the gun to be rifled. This means the positive effects of rifling- greater accuracy are cancelled out by its down sides- shorter barrel life, harder to clean negative spin imparted to apfsds rounds etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Using older rounds would be stupid, the Al Khalid is no joke and you want over-kill not maybe-kill.

May be, but that tanks is still no match for our T-90s, Arjun is over kill..

120mm rifled guns are dinosaurs. Even with the 1pc ammuntion the gun it self is derived from the old L11A5 series of guns. Very accurate but limited velocities and short barrel life with modern ammunition. The Arjun needs the new 120mmL55 from either Germany or South Korea.

I wont say dinos, but yes smooth-bores also do the job..
Regarding velocity i would say ammo, Also we don't need foreign guns as we can make ours ..

Rifling is a disadvantage in modern tanks. modern computers and round designed has removed the need for the gun to be rifled. This means the positive effects of rifling- greater accuracy are cancelled out by its down sides- shorter barrel life, harder to clean negative spin imparted to apfsds rounds etc.

No its certainly not, Rifled version showed its worthiness in both Gulf war, Not to mention longest shot o 6.5km by Challenger1, The reason brits are changed from rifled to smooth-bore is because of the ammunition..

 

[zraver]

May be, but that tanks is still no match for our T-90s, Arjun is over kill..

Not without modern ammo....

I wont say dinos, but yes smooth-bores also do the job..
Regarding velocity i would say ammo, Also we don't need foreign guns as we can make ours ..

the guns you make are obsolete...

No its certainly not, Rifled version showed its worthiness in both Gulf war, Not to mention longest shot o 6.5km by Challenger1, The reason brits are changed from rifled to smooth-bore is because of the ammunition..

Why is the ammunition changing? HESH rounds do not work vs modern armor where spacing, spall liners and the use of different materials prevents the spalling effect HESH works on. This leaves 3 options- saboted rounds, HEAT rounds or smart rounds. India doesn;t have smart rounds like the MRM-CE so is left with HEAT and saboted rounds. 120mm HEAT rounds are not powerful enough to reliably defeat modern ceramics like those found on the AK. This leaves saboted rounds where the rifling is a disadvantage.

 

[p2prada]

@Zraver

So, cutting it short, the Arjun's gun still has some ways to go and our T-90s with the M5s will be good in the short term and maybe the 2A82 in the long term.

What about the armour?
I believe that the T-90s frontal armour(composite + K-5) is the toughest in the subcontinent and will only increase once the T-90M(Kanchan inserts + Relikt/Kaktus) comes out. How does the T-90M's armour fare compared to Western MBTs like the M1A2?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not without modern ammo....

No certainly not, the ammo is quite capable of defeating modern Armour at rages of 3000m, tungstun rod of 6.8kgs at 1650m/s is impressive..

the guns you make are obsolete...

Being rifled is obsolete?

Why is the ammunition changing?

Because Brits use two piece ammo, therefore the modern rounds like DM-63 cannot be modified to fire from Challenger gun..
But Arjun can..

This leaves saboted rounds where the rifling is a disadvantage.

Thats the reason why rifled gun use modified sabot..

 

[p2prada]

i too agreed with the first lot of T-90 procurement. i differ on the 2nd lot onwards from 2007 when Arjun was ready in 2005 - which you accept.

That's not how things work.

flimsy details?? you agreed Arjun was ready in 2005 and you have still not answered on the "issues" with T-90s since induction. nice to "flimsy" them when they are the most basic things of a MBT.

Arjun was not ready until 2008 and still does not follow the GSQR. It still needs Active armour and new engine not to mention 3rd generation thermal imagers and a better gun.

then it is just a hearsay. speculation.

So, you just want to be spoon fed.

i only pointed out your different takes on the KAKTUS.

Yes. I made a mistake regarding that. There is nothing wrong in it. How am I to know which of the ERAs are stronger? Both are still classified. Nevertheless, it is still better than what we have on the Arjun.

firstly, you were painting it as silver bullet and said it is next generation to even relikt and even differed with Kunal sir when he was vouching for Relikt.

He did not vouch for it, he only provided info that it will be the Relikt.

you are missing the point. the "basic" premise for this whole debate was - what constitutes T-90M?? as per the links of various russian sources i gave links of, T-90M sports a new autoloader (to fire longer, single piece rods) and a new turret among other things. and you differed saying only KAKTUS ERA in T-90M constitutes the difference from our T-90S!!!

We already have the 2A42M-5, as Zraver said, it has been modified. I also mentioned it has a new stabilization increasing accuracy. We already paid for it. Now we are manufacturing it at Avadi. So, now the only thing left for our tanks to become T-90M is the new ERA.

I had always assumed the second batch we received was with a new autoloader and I already told you I read somewhere that we asked for it very early.

our TOT was for T-90S. changing it to T-90M means drastic changes costing both a lot of money and time when the T-90S itself costs more.

So? They will be inducted anyway. The same upgrades on the Arjun will cost much more.

as for "electronic" upgrades, it was found russian systems were not upto the task and hence thales. even they need AC unit for which the struggle is on to find "space".

The T-90 already comes with AC. I don't know what's up with all the dilly dallying with the media. How can it be NBC protected without an AC?

the question is about hot summers in deserts where the electronics have to work!!! even people faint in T-90s due to its design limitations. reason why they are trying to put an AC unit. is it difficult to understand this??

March in Bikaner. Comparative trials? Should be hot there in Rajasthan.

speculations don't count.

You want people to spoon feed you.

Zraver just killed Arjun's gun. Why don't you ask him for a source?

i only questioned your painting of KAKTUS ERA as some sort of an "invincible" solution. i have decent idea how the ERAs work.

Why don't you ask Zraver if he wants Kaktus/Relikt on the M1 Abrams.

if it is some super secret project which is currently "unavailable" to our adversaries, i would agree with you. BVR today is nothing. even Myanmar may have it.

Do you remember the time when 2 Indian businessmen in the US were caught for carrying details about an Intel processor that was already available on the internet. They were charged with Espionage and sentenced. For what, carrying open source information. Now I hope you get the point. If not, then I will simply have to spoon feed you;

When you join the armed forces you are to sign a Non Disclosure agreement. At any time during and after service you just shut up, that's it. It does not have specifics that say, Ok, this is open source and the enemy already has a variant, so go ahead and speak your heart out about it.

yes. resolved in 2008 but it does not talk about the new gun. it was just a resolution of the "unresolved" issue pertaining to the barrels as per 2001 agreement - meaning the older versions that existed in 2000/2001.

The Russians changed their entire law and we got new guns. Simple.

enlighten me and the rest.

It is from your own source, Igor. He mentions the export version of the T-90M has the option of installing the latest guns available.
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/90-new-specs.html#more

Totally new 2A82 125 mm MG (2A46M5 - optional).

analysts posts may be interesting and i do value them but it needs to be realistic and not some fiction. i correct myself when substantiated.

So, Zraver said he would choose the T-90M over Arjun anyday. Is that realistic enough or fiction?

the basic point in that whole discussion was about "power requirements" for a radar. you were proved wrong.

Wrong. You were trying to prove why 1KW is too little to do anything. I proved small aircraft radars function at less than 1KW which is a big deal.
My statement:

LCA radars will not go above 1KW and with average power at 500W.

I proved it by giving you the math. I took the RC-400 example and the Thales website to validate it. Unfortunately you need to be spoon fed with everything.

When I gave the the 400W transmitted power for RC-400, I wanted people to realize that at 20% pf the power consumed will be only twice that. This means power supplied has to be twice that considering the radar is working at 50% efficiency. Many radars work at higher efficiency than 50% which means power supplied has to be lower than the 50% benchmark. I hope you still get it, the reason why I gave the RC-400 figure or when I talked about the Su-30MKK.

Simply because you do not understand technical terms or the math involved does not mean I was wrong.

when compared to a pak lt. general LODI's article - which you claimed as "backing" of your POV (when this guy is not involved with the development of Arjun) and your disbelief of gen. Shankar roy chowdhary, former COAS (who was involved with arjun development and its induction) - ofcourse, Igor or Ajai are not gods.

An in service Lt General(who gave correct information), an ex-COAS and member of Parliament(politician) also involved with the Arjun and an ex-army journalist who hates the T-90 for no apparent reason.

answered previously.

So, even Igor is confused about the designation. T-90ME or M????

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We already have the 2A42M-5, as Zraver said, it has been modified
Zraver just killed Arjun's gun. Why don't you ask him for a source?
Why don't you ask Zraver [/B]if he wants Kaktus/Relikt on the M1 Abrams.
So, Zraver said he would choose the T-90M over Arjun anyday. Is that realistic enough or fiction?

p2prada,
What is with Mr Zraver?
Mr Zraver is a human also a defense-enthusiastic also a Ex-uniform or Uniform personal, Like many other in this forum..
We are all taking abt weapon systems here, and gaining each other idea and knowledge..

 

[p2prada]

p2prada,
What is with Mr Zraver?
Mr Zraver is a human also a defense-enthusiastic also a Ex-uniform or Uniform personal, Like many other in this forum..
We are all taking abt weapon systems here, and gaining each other idea and knowledge..

Unfortunately the only guy I know who has actively worked on tanks.

We have had our fair bit of argument when it came to aircraft. But when it comes to tanks, I don't try to argue with him. He will put me in my place. The same reason why I will not question you when it comes to rifles and soldiering, if we ever talk about it or question Gambit when it comes to aircraft.

Whenever you gave me info I did not know, I always took your word for it. And I always mentioned that too, if you go back to my previous posts.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Unfortunately the only guy I know who has actively worked on tanks.

We have had our fair bit of argument when it came to aircraft. But when it comes to tanks, I don't try to argue with him. He will put me in my place. The same reason why I will not question you when it comes to rifles and soldiering, if we ever talk about it or question Gambit when it comes to aircraft.

Whenever you gave me info I did not know, I always took your word for it. And I always mentioned that too, if you go back to my previous posts.

@P2prada,
U have to understand that Mr Zraver is a tanker as u mentioned but of Russia, Yes Indeed we Indians share almost the same hardware still their are differences in weapon systems, besides in Indian army tank specifications are still a close secrets and will be secrets forever, even Indian tanker don't know abt ever details of their tanks, therefore u know some points but not all, when the data what Russian army using is very different, hence u cannot compare both having 100% same, Untill their is a hard evidence abt the topic..

To get a clear idea that i am right or wrong we have to clear each-other misconceptions and doubts by discussion with ease..

 

[zraver]

Ok, first off I did not say I would pick the T-90 any day, I said I would prefer the 2A46m5 gun over the Arjuns. The Arjun's mobility, 4 man crew, greater elevation depression, german MTU engine etc are not to be discounted.

Kunal, source for 6.8kg at 1650m/s please. That works out to roughly 9.2mj which is superior to any round but the M829A3 if India has solved the various issues like pancaking and deformation. To be honest, I don't see India coming out of the box with a round that powerful with all the issues solved.

P2P,

Armor wise the T-90M with Kacktus ERA and kachan inserts will be very well protected from the front vs convetional AT weapondry.

The T-90 already comes with AC. I don't know what's up with all the dilly dallying with the media. How can it be NBC protected without an AC?

The use of filter/suit, hot filtering overpressure and conventional overpressure do not need climate control. Climate control is useful, I would even say required (although I never had it) but it is not a required part of the NBC system.

[quorte]How am I to know which of the ERAs are stronger?[/quote]

Kactus, it is a generation newer.

Heavy ERA's work in two ways. Firs tthe explosive filler obvisuouly acts to disrupt the jet of a HEAT round. However the impact of an enemy round and the detonation of the explosive filler also work to force the top steel tile sideways as compared to the bottom tile that is anchored to the tank. This induces sheer on the side of penetrators. The intent is to break them so that they can not fully transmit the potential energy they impact with.

Why don't you ask Zraver if he wants Kaktus/Relikt on the M1 Abrams.

Neither, I want NxRA and SLAT. NxRA is the way of the future. The sheer effects hold promise for use vs not only KE penetrators but CE as well. What the Abrams really need is a full spectrum APS.

 

[p2prada]

@P2prada,
U have to understand that Mr Zraver is a tanker as u mentioned but of Russia

He is American. I believe he lives in Arkansas. Worked on the Abrams.

To get a clear idea that i am right or wrong we have to clear each-other misconceptions and doubts by discussion with ease..

Are you supportive of ppgj's assessment that we should not have gone for the 1000 T-90 contract?
You are aware I was replying to ppgj's posts which only consists of cost escalation rantings.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal, source for 6.8kg at 1650m/s please. That works out to roughly 9.2mj which is superior to any round but the M829A3 if India has solved the various issues like pancaking and deformation. To be honest, I don't see India coming out of the box with a round that powerful with all the issues solved.

Posted by sayareakd

Actually i expect more from DRDO, But still this is fine therfore our Army is using 90% DRDO shells in all T-tanks..

Armor wise the T-90M with Kacktus ERA and kachan inserts will be very well protected from the front vs convetional AT weapondry.
Kactus, it is a generation newer.

The rumors of Kaktus is for years now, BR was never updated also other websites simple did copy-paste, Why recent rise of T-90M seen in Relikt not Kaktus?
Also Is it really possible to install Kaktus on present T-90M turret coz these Kaktus are really huge as i have seen them on Black eagle..

He is American. I believe he lives in Arkansas. Worked on the Abrams.

Nice to know!
But my point remain same..

Are you supportive of ppgj's assessment that we should not have gone for the 1000 T-90 contract?

Check page no 10-35..

 

[p2prada]

Ok, first off I did not say I would pick the T-90 any day, I said I would prefer the 2A46m5 gun over the Arjuns.

TY. Kunal sir and I were discussing about the guns previously.

The Arjun's mobility, 4 man crew, greater elevation depression, german MTU engine etc are not to be discounted.

Cannot beat the Arjun on mobility and elevation depression. The T-90 is slow and sluggish because of the armour. Maybe a new powerpack that is being designed will help answer the mobility issues.

Sir. We were denied a 1500HP MTU from Germany. I don't think we are going for a German engine in the future. DRDO is currently building a 1500HP engine. 4 man crew works well only during war time. If we have a maintenance support crew in the armour convoy, it will help decrease combat fatigue.

But, in the cancelled FCS program the Americans were experimenting with a 2 man crew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AZe8jOuGpo

The prototype smells like a T-90. Small profile, auto loader, small crew.

The use of filter/suit, hot filtering overpressure and conventional overpressure do not need climate control. Climate control is useful, I would even say required (although I never had it) but it is not a required part of the NBC system.

Which would be a better option? AC or no AC? Both in costs as well as efficacy of such a system in the NBC environment.

Kactus, it is a generation newer.

The Relikt was supposed to go on the T-95, is it possible there is a newer version of the Relikt?

Heavy ERA's work in two ways. Firs tthe explosive filler obvisuouly acts to disrupt the jet of a HEAT round. However the impact of an enemy round and the detonation of the explosive filler also work to force the top steel tile sideways as compared to the bottom tile that is anchored to the tank. This induces sheer on the side of penetrators. The intent is to break them so that they can not fully transmit the potential energy they impact with.

The Pakistanis like playing with their RPGs.

Neither, I want NxRA and SLAT. NxRA is the way of the future. The sheer effects hold promise for use vs not only KE penetrators but CE as well. What the Abrams really need is a full spectrum APS.

German ceramic tiles are available. Any chances the M1 will use ERA rather than NERA for the TUSK upgrade?

APS is a requirement for all modern tanks. BTW, is there a way to survive Predator or gunship fired ATGMs without APS?

 

[zraver]

I was a tanker of both Patton and Abrams tanks.

Kunal, where is that information from and does it include the weight of the sabot in the weight of the round? 8.6 is very heavy as the DM-63 is 8.35kg with sabot.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I was a tanker of both Patton and Abrams tanks.

Kunal, where is that information from and does it include the weight of the sabot in the weight of the round? 8.6 is very heavy as the DM-63 is 8.35kg with sabot.

I have given u in last page also i am giving u again..

http://img707.imageshack.us/i/scan0078.jpg/
http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/208-India-s-Born-Again-T-90M-MBT/page39

 

[p2prada]

I was a tanker of both Patton and Abrams tanks.

I did not know about the Patton. Have you served outside of the US during service?

Kunal, where is that information from and does it include the weight of the sabot in the weight of the round? 8.6 is very heavy as the DM-63 is 8.35kg with sabot.

OFB links;

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/23.htm

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/37.htm

EDIT: From what I can figure out the weight of the projectile also adds the Sabot.
The numbers don't add up if you exclude the sabot. The bursting charge seems like 0.43Kg or lesser.

 

[zraver]

I never left the US, but not for lack of trying. I volunteered for ODS, but they didn't need Patton crewmen. I was gettign ready to ship out to Germany and probably Bosnia when I got out to try and save my marriage.

I agree the round includes the weight of the sabot which makes figuring actual energy rather difficult.

 

[p2prada]

I agree the round includes the weight of the sabot which makes figuring actual energy rather difficult.

I don't know how the Bursting Charge comes into the picture. Wasn't this used when AP rounds first came out and replaced by the Sabot. Anyway if you take the weight of the projectile at 4.8kgs and the Sabot at 2kgs that will give us the 6.8kgs mentioned. This is a typical old gen Russian round.

Muzzle energy would be 6.53MJ for that figure.

 

[ppgj]

According to Fofanov, the orignal batch would have been 2A46M2,

that must be the case as per the Deagel link, which is the only one which says so - that i have come across.

however it is likely that any of the kits made post 2005 would be the M5 gun as production switched over. The differences are small,

considering the russians played spoil sport for the TOT on the barrels/armour plates as per the agreement in 2001 - which was only resolved in 2008 - IMO the gun would be 2A46M2. why would they give us their latest when that was point of contention??

the big improvement for the T-90M is the improved auto-loader.

agree with you sir but that would mean a drastic changes to the turret with the new autoloader to fire the single piece, longer rods. cost wise and time wise it would be a big question mark if IA goes for it considering they have accused DRDO of the same.

According to open source material- so take it for what tis worth

The major differences are- Kacktus ERA, Swedish APS, Kachan ceramic inserts, improved auto-loader, true hunter-killer ability, battle management system.

space has been a major factor in the implementation of many of these systems other than the auto loader. also you forgot to add the AC unit needed for the T-90s for the desert terrain.

an old report but still relevant here -

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#5

the "new autoloader" means lot of reengineering and may be a change of the turret too. involves lot of time and money!! already T-90S costs more than Arjun and when Arjun has proved itself, the point seems moot.

Using older rounds would be stupid, the Al Khalid is no joke and you want over-kill not maybe-kill.

agree sir but as i said considering the cost and time factor for the installation of the auto loader it remains to be seen if IA goes for it.

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That's not how things work.

Arjun was not ready until 2008 and still does not follow the GSQR. It still needs Active armour and new engine not to mention 3rd generation thermal imagers and a better gun.

So, you just want to be spoon fed.

Yes. I made a mistake regarding that. There is nothing wrong in it. How am I to know which of the ERAs are stronger? Both are still classified. Nevertheless, it is still better than what we have on the Arjun.

He did not vouch for it, he only provided info that it will be the Relikt.

We already have the 2A42M-5, as Zraver said, it has been modified. I also mentioned it has a new stabilization increasing accuracy. We already paid for it. Now we are manufacturing it at Avadi. So, now the only thing left for our tanks to become T-90M is the new ERA.

I had always assumed the second batch we received was with a new autoloader and I already told you I read somewhere that we asked for it very early.

So? They will be inducted anyway. The same upgrades on the Arjun will cost much more.

The T-90 already comes with AC. I don't know what's up with all the dilly dallying with the media. How can it be NBC protected without an AC?

March in Bikaner. Comparative trials? Should be hot there in Rajasthan.

You want people to spoon feed you.

Zraver just killed Arjun's gun. Why don't you ask him for a source?

Why don't you ask Zraver if he wants Kaktus/Relikt on the M1 Abrams.

Do you remember the time when 2 Indian businessmen in the US were caught for carrying details about an Intel processor that was already available on the internet. They were charged with Espionage and sentenced. For what, carrying open source information. Now I hope you get the point. If not, then I will simply have to spoon feed you;

When you join the armed forces you are to sign a Non Disclosure agreement. At any time during and after service you just shut up, that's it. It does not have specifics that say, Ok, this is open source and the enemy already has a variant, so go ahead and speak your heart out about it.

The Russians changed their entire law and we got new guns. Simple.

It is from your own source, Igor. He mentions the export version of the T-90M has the option of installing the latest guns available.
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/90-new-specs.html#more

So, Zraver said he would choose the T-90M over Arjun anyday. Is that realistic enough or fiction?

Wrong. You were trying to prove why 1KW is too little to do anything. I proved small aircraft radars function at less than 1KW which is a big deal.
My statement:

I proved it by giving you the math. I took the RC-400 example and the Thales website to validate it. Unfortunately you need to be spoon fed with everything.

When I gave the the 400W transmitted power for RC-400, I wanted people to realize that at 20% pf the power consumed will be only twice that. This means power supplied has to be twice that considering the radar is working at 50% efficiency. Many radars work at higher efficiency than 50% which means power supplied has to be lower than the 50% benchmark. I hope you still get it, the reason why I gave the RC-400 figure or when I talked about the Su-30MKK.

Simply because you do not understand technical terms or the math involved does not mean I was wrong.

An in service Lt General(who gave correct information), an ex-COAS and member of Parliament(politician) also involved with the Arjun and an ex-army journalist who hates the T-90 for no apparent reason.

So, even Igor is confused about the designation. T-90ME or M????

as usual...shoot and scoot techniques.

speculate, claim and when asked for source - skip, sidestep and attack personally. and now you call it "spoon feeding"!!! what more is in store??

however i want to pick 2 more of your "new" speculations and some points.

We already have the 2A42M-5, as Zraver said, it has been modified. I also mentioned it has a new stabilization increasing accuracy. We already paid for it. Now we are manufacturing it at Avadi. So, now the only thing left for our tanks to become T-90M is the new ERA.

where has he said it conclusively?? how much of it he will know compared to our MPs like kunal sir, ray sir or Ajai shukla (who is a tanker himeslf)?? he said of 2A46M2 and quoted fofanov for that.

I had always assumed the second batch we received was with a new autoloader and I already told you I read somewhere that we asked for it very early.

=omg=. the "new autoloader" in T-90M was shown to Mr. Putin in only dec 2009 and exists only in prototypes. far from being operational even in Russia!!! how come we could have it with the second lot in 2007??

The T-90 already comes with AC. I don't know what's up with all the dilly dallying with the media. How can it be NBC protected without an AC?

another one!!!

there is space constraints in putting AC which you are purposely skipping.

March in Bikaner. Comparative trials? Should be hot there in Rajasthan.

everybody knows it was not "comparative trials". IA has consistently been avoiding it. it was an exercise to determine to strengths of each tank for deployment post induction. it was clarified by both army and drdo.

besides why are they trying to put an AC if there is no problem with T-90 thermals??

Zraver just killed Arjun's gun. Why don't you ask him for a source?

Why don't you ask Zraver if he wants Kaktus/Relikt on the M1 Abrams.

as to the bolded part - "statement of the year."

for the rest, the claims were made by you and not Zraver sir. why are you bringing him into this??

So, Zraver said he would choose the T-90M over Arjun anyday. Is that realistic enough or fiction?

where did he say it?? he spoke of only the gun which has been subsequently answered by kunal sir.

PS : i have no intention continue with your "speculative" debating skills.

thank you and have a good day.