Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Kunal Biswas]

This thread is a treasure regarding Tank debates, Search it ..

The debate regarding placement of sight is been debated here ..

 

[AnantS]

This thread is a treasure regarding Tank debates, Search it ..

The debate regarding placement of sight is been debated here ..

Kunal any link to that debate section? Anyways I think the gunner sight placement has been carried forward in MK 2, because to reduce need to create new dies and hence avoid unnecessary more delays.

 

[rishivashista13]

still i would also like to see active protection systems like LED 150 on Indian tanks.

in Defexpo 2016 Tata displayed a model of T-90 fitted with LEDS 150 active protection system, comprising radar sensors and traversable countermeasure dispensers designed to protect the tank from anti-tank missiles and RPGs.


so why even wait to be hit ?

As I know , India is buying Trophy active protection systems from Israil for our Arjun MBTs probably mk2 .

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[Kunal Biswas]

Its much has to do with design philosophy, Indian system prefer accuracy and maintainability and mobility over anything ..

If it has to be change it could have been with other 93 major and minor modifications, It includes Rifled gun that only India and Brits are still using, Its not that ARDE do not make Indigenous smooth bore gun,

It starts here and continues as long as you wish to continue ..
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/main-battle-tanks-and-armour-technology.208/page-122

Kunal any link to that debate section? Anyways I think the gunner sight placement has been carried forward in MK 2, because to reduce need to create new dies and hence avoid unnecessary more delays.

 

[rishivashista13]

If it has to be change it could have been with other 93 major and minor modifications, It includes Rifled gun that only India and Brits are still using, Its not that ARDE do not make Indigenous smooth bore gun

We still use rifled gun because of our love with HESH (high explosive squash head) rounds , they are only effective when fired from rifled guns .
And HESH rounds are very effective against buildings , bunkers etc .

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[armyofhind]

I

One serious doubt .
Why our arjun mk2 has gunners sight at such dangerous place ??

What if a round hit gunners sight ! Round will easily penetrate inside and destroy the tank .

But if we see other tanks of the world , they have there gunners sight such that if it is hit the tank will be safe .

American M1 Abrahams

Israili Merkava

British Challenger

German Leopard

Russian and ours T 90

Even pakistani Al khalid doesn't has such dangerous gunners sight .

We say our Arjun mk2 is one of the best tank of the world .
So what is the meaning of such design Which makes our tank so venerable to enemy fire ?
Please anyone explain , why this is so ?

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I think it might be wrong to assume that the gunner's sight is a direct conduit to the fighting compartment.. surely the designers must've thought of this.. there could be an armor panel behind it.. since a direct LOS isn't needed for digital imaging.. or if it is optical, could be a periscope around the armor panel..

The Arjun has the commander's panoramic sight at the place where the gunner's sight is present on the other tanks.

 

[AnantS]

Its much has to do with design philosophy, Indian system prefer accuracy and maintainability and mobility over anything ..

If it has to be change it could have been with other 93 major and minor modifications, It includes Rifled gun that only India and Brits are still using, Its not that ARDE do not make Indigenous smooth bore gun,

It starts here and continues as long as you wish to continue ..
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/main-battle-tanks-and-armour-technology.208/page-122

Thanks for that! Hmm But I really dont see any major modification to MK2 Turret, apart form hooks(!?) for ERA Tiles.(If I count out Remote Turret and other additional assorted equipment added on turret)

Apart from that I think rifle guns are out of favor, when DRDO floated probable specs for FMBT, they are going in for smooth bore gun instead of rifled.

See it makes sense if they did not change geometry of turret or gun for mk2, because that would be a major redesign effort, and would require much strenuous rounds of tests once again. All this redesign effort does not sound cost effective when Army was only going to place token order for tanks.

 

[rishivashista13]

I

I think it might be wrong to assume that the gunner's sight is a direct conduit to the fighting compartment.. surely the designers must've thought of this.. there could be an armor panel behind it.. since a direct LOS isn't needed for digital imaging.. or if it is optical, could be a periscope around the armor panel..

The Arjun has the commander's panoramic sight at the place where the gunner's sight is present on the other tanks.

Whatever it is , a periscope or a direct sight for gunner , but it is for sure that it can't stop AP and HEAT or any antitank round , wondering if RPG could also penetrate it . cant sure about that

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[armyofhind]

Whatever it is , a periscope or a direct sight for gunner , but it is for sure that it can't stop AP and HEAT or any antitank round , wondering if RPG could also penetrate it . cant sure about that

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If it has an armor panel behind it, surely a HEAT or RPG will not penetrate it.

It is very nescient to assume that the scientists who designed the tank did not think of this basic fact.

 

[porky_kicker]

lol last three hours i spent doing this (seriously i think i lost my girlfriend here), dont know if it was worth it.

this is my take on how the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR of the arjun tank should have integrated into the tank ie its location.
the advantages of this configuration is (according to me)
1.the frontal portion of the turret is freed up and can sport the ERA tiles thus providing much needed protection to the vulnerable frontal zone.
2.the line of sight of the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is increased way more than in the previous installation position.
3. the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is now safe from sniper fire / artillery shell fragments etc when in the HUNKER down mode . protection is way better since it can be place flat against the turret hull and not always exposed when not in active use.
4.circular traverse capability (not shown in the photo) can be provided to the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR mount system so that it can detect/lase targets even when the main gun/ gun turret is not aimed directly at the target or facing the target.
this allows additional independent capability much like the commanders panoramic sight, the commander will use the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR to lase the target even when the gun mantle is not facing the target , the gunner will simply fire the laser guided missile in a non line of sight mode (NLOS) as the missile will simply home towards the target via following/riding the laser beam.

the gun mount system (upper portion) will have 360 degree clearance and will not be obstructed by the raised RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR (lower portion), the design specifically caters to this.
present RCWS in arjun mk2 is bulky if u compare it to comparable western systems, so this design of mine follows slim and minimalist (structural) western design like that of raven crow etc.

rest is self explanatory as seen in the picture.

@rishivashista13
@Kunal Biswas
@aditya g
@HariPrasad-1
@rock127
@Gessler
and others

what do u thing ?
is it feasible ?

or just my darn imagination lol

 

[porky_kicker]

lol last three hours i spent doing this (seriously i think i lost my girlfriend here), dont know if it was worth it.

this is my take on how the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR of the arjun tank should have integrated into the tank ie its location.
the advantages of this configuration is (according to me)
1.the frontal portion of the turret is freed up and can sport the ERA tiles thus providing much needed protection to the vulnerable frontal zone.
2.the line of sight of the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is increased way more than in the previous installation position.
3. the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is now safe from sniper fire / artillery shell fragments etc when in the HUNKER down mode . protection is way better since it can be place flat against the turret hull and not always exposed when not in active use.
4.circular traverse capability (not shown in the photo) can be provided to the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR mount system so that it can detect/lase targets even when the main gun/ gun turret is not aimed directly at the target or facing the target.
this allows additional independent capability much like the commanders panoramic sight, the commander will use the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR to lase the target even when the gun mantle is not facing the target , the gunner will simply fire the laser guided missile in a non line of sight mode (NLOS) as the missile will simply home towards the target via following/riding the laser beam.

the gun mount system (upper portion) will have 360 degree clearance and will not be obstructed by the raised RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR (lower portion), the design specifically caters to this.
present RCWS in arjun mk2 is bulky if u compare it to comparable western systems, so this design of mine follows slim and minimalist (structural) western design like that of raven crow etc.

rest is self explanatory as seen in the picture.

@rishivashista13
@Kunal Biswas
@aditya g
@HariPrasad-1
@rock127
@Gessler
and others

what do u thing ?
is it feasible ?

or just my darn imagination lol

@Bharat Ek Khoj @Blackwater @Bornubus @gpawar @Indx TechStyle @LETHALFORCE @maomao @OneGrimPilgrim @raja696 @Screambowl

 

[Bornubus]

lol last three hours i spent doing this (seriously i think i lost my girlfriend here), dont know if it was worth it.

this is my take on how the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR of the arjun tank should have integrated into the tank ie its location.
the advantages of this configuration is (according to me)
1.the frontal portion of the turret is freed up and can sport the ERA tiles thus providing much needed protection to the vulnerable frontal zone.
2.the line of sight of the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is increased way more than in the previous installation position.
3. the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR is now safe from sniper fire / artillery shell fragments etc when in the HUNKER down mode . protection is way better since it can be place flat against the turret hull and not always exposed when not in active use.
4.circular traverse capability (not shown in the photo) can be provided to the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR mount system so that it can detect/lase targets even when the main gun/ gun turret is not aimed directly at the target or facing the target.
this allows additional independent capability much like the commanders panoramic sight, the commander will use the RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR to lase the target even when the gun mantle is not facing the target , the gunner will simply fire the laser guided missile in a non line of sight mode (NLOS) as the missile will simply home towards the target via following/riding the laser beam.

the gun mount system (upper portion) will have 360 degree clearance and will not be obstructed by the raised RADAR/LASER DESIGNATOR (lower portion), the design specifically caters to this.
present RCWS in arjun mk2 is bulky if u compare it to comparable western systems, so this design of mine follows slim and minimalist (structural) western design like that of raven crow etc.

rest is self explanatory as seen in the picture.

@rishivashista13
@Kunal Biswas
@aditya g
@HariPrasad-1
@rock127
@Gessler
and others

what do u thing ?
is it feasible ?

or just my darn imagination lol

Nice contribution to the forum, appreciate it.

As kunal said that Arjun might have some design flaws especially Turret but it is better than whatever Paki's and Most PLA tanks except their latest variant Type 99.

Secondly most of the subsystem originally designed for it now being used in T 90 including the ERA.

IMO What we lack is the better Ammo for it especially long Rod Penetrators

 

[porky_kicker]

Nice contribution to the forum, appreciate it.

As kunal said that Arjun might have some design flaws especially Turret but it is better than whatever Paki's and Most PLA tanks except their latest variant Type 99.

Secondly most of the subsystem originally designed for it now being used in T 90 including the ERA.

IMO What we lack is the better Ammo for it especially long Rod Penetrators

i agree
even the germans are learning / implement new things all along,
building tanks is not a easy job , but the army role has not been too encouraging.

look how the germans kept on upgrading the leopard mbt.

if the indian army takes an interest in the arjun development/upgrade, arjun has the capability to beat anything the porkies and chinese throw at us.

i think even with the short comings it is the only tank in indian inventory which stands a reasonable chance of surviving in cooped up urban warfare .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

World Championship Biathlon Tank result so far , India stood 3rd and Chinese 7th

"In the overall ranking the first place is the Russian Federation - 26 minutes 27 seconds, the second - the Republic of Kazakhstan - 30 minutes 14 seconds, the Republic of India - 31 minutes 26 seconds", - the press service quoted the chief judge of the competition, Lieutenant-General Yuri Petrov.

Fourth place in the overall ranking Belarusian crew took fifth - tankers of Armenia, on the sixth and seventh place were the crews of Kyrgyzstan and China, showing the same time 32 minutes and 15 seconds.

Chief arbiter reminded that the overall results of individual races will be announced on August 6 after the third round.

The main intrigue of the third day of competition will be the rivalry of the Russian and Chinese crews in the individual race. Russian crew, headed by junior sergeant Bulat Tsyrenova on domestic T-72 will compete in the speed and accuracy of fire with the crew of the Chinese People's Republic, which stands on his tank Type 96A under Lieutenant Howe Phena.

Tank biathlon is analogous ski biathlon and provides 4 types of races: individual, sprint, pursuit, team relay. Participants overcome several obstacles, such as slalom (snake), Wade, barrow (steep climb), rutting bridge and escarpment. Unlike classical biathlon, crews fighting vehicles hit the target, simulating tanks and low-flying helicopters, at distances from 900 to 2200 meters.

Source : http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140806/1018983289.html

 

[porky_kicker]

it is just a pictorial description of the concept posted above

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This would be better if placed at rear ..

 

[porky_kicker]

This would be better if placed at rear ..

yes i also had the same thought
then the whole RCWS setup will have to lengthened in height to get better and wider LOS/coverage
another plus point the commanders panoramic sight coverage will be freed up of to some extent of the blind zone being encountered due to present position of RCWS

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. You cannot increase the height either, This will increase silhouette of the vehicle ..

2. Guidance system at top won`t able to work with angle of gun depression when engaging from height ..

 

[rishivashista13]

1. You cannot increase the height either, This will increase silhouette of the vehicle ..

2. Guidance system at top won`t able to work with angle of gun depression when engaging from height ..

Silhouette of vehicle ?? Please

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[porky_kicker]

1. You cannot increase the height either, This will increase silhouette of the vehicle ..

2. Guidance system at top won`t able to work with angle of gun depression when engaging from height ..

effect of height increase (increased silhouette of the vehicle) can be mitigated to a large extent by the employment of stealth shaping of the RCWS.
plus appropriate paint job will also help in obstructing identification in visual /IR region.

the 2nd point seems valid , but the real impact if any will be ascertained during design , then necessary structural and design changes can be made to cater to the required angle of gun depression

@rishivashista13
Silhouette of vehicle ?? Please
it means the visibility of the vehicle due to its size/shape