Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

CCP

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Propably yes.

Minimum allowed speed during shooting is 20km/h - if crew is moving slower the whole shooting is not aprove.
To get highter rank speed is incarease to ~35km/h

Anyway, ammo test in Poland where done using 20km/h for tank:



(notice that this is normal HE-FRAG not APFSDS-T-TP or HEAT...
So in theory accuracy shoud be worse.

"Propably yes. " for what ?

"35km" + "1600-1800m" + "100%"?


Type 96A proved itself at the last tank game :

"~40 km/h" + "1600-1800m" + "90%"
 
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Dazzler

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As far as i know from personal experience this is no different from T-72M1 accuracy at similar ranges, T-90 has slightly better ..
T-72M1 does not have a FCS, which type-96/ 85IIAP has, and a good one i.e. ISFCS-212.

yes training does compensate for a lot of things, but only to an extent.
 

Dazzler

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type-96A:

TPD-K1:

Type-96A:


(i know - pooor quality but central mark visible :))

TKN-3 (notice marks)


Type-96A:


while in main sight I can have a doubts, then commander sight is without doubt chineese copy of the TKN-3 or simmilar :) even sight marks are the same


Type-85/96 Fire Control system

China ISFCS-212 fire control system stabilization

Country
China
Name
ISFCS-212 fire control system stabilization
ISFCS-212 Image-stabilized Fire Control System
Research and development unit
China North Industries (Group) Corporation
China North Industries Group
Production units
China North Industries (Group) Corporation
China North Industries Group
Status quo
Produce
Equipment cases
85-â…¡ main battle tanks
Overview

The fire control system for the 85-â…¡ main battle tank developed a new fire control system, and after the experiment on 59 tanks. The system with the car a long day / night periscope has an interface that makes the car go beyond long rotating turret gunner control or to deal with different objectives.
System components

1 sighting device

Sighting devices include day and night, ranging stable triple field of view sight, including the main sights, laser emission cavity, the laser power and counters, 1 × periscope into the mirror and shimmer sight. Its function is to observe the battlefield, targeting and tracking targets; determine the target distance; determine the target level and azimuth speed.
Its features include:
(A) by the method of direct field of view enables stable gunner can clearly observe the battlefield, easy to aim, track smoothly and reliably measure the distance.
(2) shimmer sight, 1 × periscope, such as laser firing chamber connected by a modular design approach and the main sights, so good interchangeability and easy maintenance.
(3) the use of a laser rangefinder first / last pulse logic technology, in order to suppress false targets.
2 ballistic computer

Ballistic computer including the computer body, control panel and stepper motor drives.
Its function is to: according to the selected playing Zan, target distance, the output of all the automatic and manual setting of the parameters of the sensor is mounted, and the calculated azimuth angle weapon advance angle; shooting display all input signals, and outputs intermediate results of various Yuan; self-test; When the fire control system is in the automatic setting division of work, the sight reticle by a stepper motor drive automatic setting by a stepper motor.
Its technical features include: weapons firing data is calculated by computing the cycle in order to improve the starting shooting; Thanks to LSI, ballistic computer simple structure, stable performance and reliable operation; interrupt switch to shooting with a quick check of the projectile off-target reason.
3 correction sensor

Target height and azimuth speed sensor is included in the sight of. Tilt sensor (vertical gyro) is used to measure static and dynamic tilt angle gun trunnion. Cross wind vane sensor (optional) is used to measure horizontal wind turret is located. Turret angular velocity sensor (tachometer generator type) used to measure the speed of the target azimuth automatic setting works when partition.
4 artillery bi stabilizer

Artillery, including the implementation of two-way stabilizer motor, gyroscopes group, converters, angle limiter, electromagnetic clutch, automatic locking device, console, tachometer generator, motor amplifier, amplifiers, power distribution boxes, body gyro, gyro turret, auxiliary fuel tanks, hydraulic booster and hydraulic power cylinder.
Artillery bi stabilizer function is: When the tank artillery chance stable movement and provide artillery firing; gunner or it can be used to drive the car long guns, and so before firing artillery automatic aiming.
Technical characteristics artillery bidirectional stabilizer is: by using the principle of complex control and stability, so that two-way stabilizer artillery guns showing a good tracking performance and high stability and accuracy; due to the use of advanced components and control methods, the bi-stable artillery is a good low-speed performance, and the ability to tilt swivel gun on a tank.
5 control equipment

Control equipment functions are: to stabilize ranging field of sight, ballistic computer and artillery carried out between electrically connected bi-stable, comprehensive and deal with all control signals; allow the formation of artillery firing signal; forced to allow firing artillery into the door; Show fire control system work and to assist with the line of sight artillery collimation adjustment.
ISFCS 212 fire control system block diagram as shown.
Principles and Features

The fire control system has two steady work like style and automatic setting division of work.
1.-type image stabilization work

Gunner control table to drive the line of sight. Position signal input to the gun sight bi stable, position feedback signal gun sight back and compare the position signal to form a closed loop, then follow the line of sight artillery movement.
When the target has been the target and measured its distance, ballistic computer data calculated according to the following cycle weapon firing data, the data is the distance from the automatic sensor target relative angular velocity, trunnion tilt, horizontal wind data as well as people Tooling given Shells, propellant temperature, air temperature, initial velocity data. Computed firing data integrated with artillery position signal. After a comprehensive two-way signal input to the gun stabilizer, automatic control by controlling the cannon to cannon angle and azimuth angle advance. When the gun reaches a predetermined position, allowing artillery fire control equipment generates and transmits a signal to the artillery firing circuit. If at this time gunner press the launch button, the gun can be immediately shot.

2 automatic setting mode partition

At this point, the lock gyro stabilization, so the field is no longer stable. Turret azimuth angular velocity sensor generates a target speed signal. When targeting and measuring the distance, the computer only once and produce firing data signals, these signals by stepper motor drive automatic setting sight annular partition. When using the ring aiming reticle target again after the gunner can fire.
Features of the fire control system are:
Sight independent and stable, with high stability and accuracy, so that the movement of tanks was observed by the gunner, targeting, tracking targets and measuring target distance and target relative motion angular velocity;
Feature allows the firing door (ie in line with the door) so that the system can automatically find the exact timing of fire;
In combat environment can change at any time due to shooting conditions, ballistic computer can calculate and generate a new cycle of firing data continuously available to the artillery, first hit rate can be improved;
Automatic setting angle and azimuth angle advance without disturbing the line of sight, fire control system is simple, short reaction time, from finding the target to fire only about 6s;
1 × periscope and shimmer gunner sight interchangeable;
The system has target azimuth velocity, angular velocity of the target level, trunnion tilt, automatic crosswind four kinds of sensors and drug-temperature, air temperature, muzzle velocity, manual stapling cross wind, manual loading given distance and in azimuth and elevation to the comprehensive correction 6 kinds of manual loading given parameters, but also choose from a variety of shells;
Fire control system can be used with the original tank car long day / night periscope sight interface, then turned the car long can override artillery to combat direction;
Fire control system is command ceremony, so the tank can quickly and accurately shoot moving targets on the move.


Performance data system parameters

Target distance 200 ~ 3990m
Target tracking angular velocity
Azimuth ± 20mrad / s
Level to ± 10mrad / s
Trunnion tilt ± 250mrad
Crosswind ± 20m / s
Propellant temperature -40 ~ + 50 ℃
Temperature -40 ~ + 50 ℃
Muzzle velocity of 0 to -4.5%
Comprehensive correction (for any kind of ammunition)
Azimuth -3.2 ~ + 3.1mrad
Level to -3.2 ~ + 3.1mrad
Information processing accuracy
Angular position
Azimuth ± 0.1mrad
Level to ± 0.1mrad
Target distance ± 10m
Target tracking angular velocity
Azimuth ± 0.4mrad / s
Level to ± 0.4mrad / s
Trunnion tilt ± 10mrad
Crosswind ± 1m / s
Manually Setting the parameters of the resolution
Manually loading a given distance 10m
Temperature 1 ℃
Propellant temperature 1 ℃
Muzzle velocity -0 / 5%
Comprehensive correction
Azimuth 0.1mrad
Low to 0.1mrad
Maximum rotational angular velocity
Turret azimuth 300mrad / s
Artillery level to 75 ~ 100mrad / s
Minimum rotation speed line of sight
Azimuth <0.3mrad / s
Level to <0.3mrad / s




System diagram
 

militarysta

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China stronk!11!

Type-96:



Hull front armour is in reality copied T-54 geometry whit added circa max 150mm slopped armour.
Front hull LOS (thnickenss) is 400mm -in best case 450mm. Protection is in best case like for T-72M1... (max 420-440mm vs APFSDS)

Turret is mucht better - 660-700mm frontal LOS including backplate, for 20-30 degree from longitiudal turret axis it's between 300 and 600mm thicknes:


and sucht tank was build in number circa 2500...
Hull protection as in T-72M1, turret on circa between T-80B and maybe erly T-72B (assuming circa 500-550mm RHA vs APFSDS).
So since 1997 PRC was manufacuring in mas tank armoured like soviets tanks between 1981-1985....



so it's not suprise that Type-96A (2006) was needed - when hull and turret protection was incerased and FCS was upgraded a lot.
 
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militarysta

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China stronk!11! and Type-96A night sight, this time more funny think:



It's the same sight as in polish PT-91 twardy (1994):

ELOP TES from Elbit from israeli, avaible from circa 1993 on market :)

and this sight was mounted in Type-96A since 2006
 

Dazzler

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China stronk!11! and Type-96A night sight, this time more funny think:



It's the same sight as in polish PT-91 twardy (1994):

ELOP TES from Elbit from israeli, avaible from circa 1993 on market :)

and this sight was mounted in Type-96A since 2006
Honestly, i see too many differences in both sights, the head section alone is different to ELOP sight, so is the optics section.





You are throwing guesses mate ;)
 

militarysta

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Honestly, i see too many differences in both sights, the head section alone is different to ELOP sight, so is the optics section.
You are throwing guesses mate ;)
No, the main sight is consider from two parts:
1) day
2) night whit thermal camera

And 1) day part is propably orgins form china. but 2) nigh and thermal camera - whole sight block is almoust 100% the same as in Polish PT-91 Twardy whit DRAWA-T FCS and ELOP TES sight whit thermal camera. Dimension, number of switches on pannel, optic lances - all is the same. It's copy or even the same ELOP TES sight.
So in 2006 china indiustry mounted copied or licence version 1993/1994 sight o_O

In case commander panoramic sight - opitic looks like cloned TPN-3 whit some sight from TKN-3 sight + some orgins chineese parts... o_O
And night range 800mm is THE SAME as in TPN-3... and in newest version old TPN-3 it was incarased to 1200m so propably real chineese night commander sight is circa 1200m to...
 

Dazzler

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China stronk!11!
Type-96:



Hull front armour is in reality copied T-54 geometry whit added circa max 150mm slopped armour.
Front hull LOS (thnickenss) is 400mm -in best case 450mm. Protection is in best case like for T-72M1... (max 420-440mm vs APFSDS)
unless there is a good image of hull front armour modules, it is difficult to estimate the exact thickness, just because it has external similarities does not mean it is the exact same thing.

Turret is mucht better - 660-700mm frontal LOS including backplate, for 20-30 degree from longitiudal turret axis it's between 300 and 600mm thicknes:
on a sidenote, here is the upgraded type-85IIAP in field exercises at an undisclosed location near bahawalpur, notice the sights section ;)





the turret of type-99 version presumably of the type-99 early version, notice the roof hump indicated in the pic. Also, Alkhalid and later type-99 versions all have thicker turret composite sections, estimated between 700-750mm for 0deg LOS, without ERA or additional frontal composite plates.[/QUOTE]



and sucht tank was build in number circa 2500...
Hull protection as in T-72M1, turret on circa between T-80B and maybe erly T-72B (assuming circa 500-550mm RHA vs APFSDS).
So since 1997 PRC was manufacuring in mas tank armoured like soviets tanks between 1981-1985....
again, hull thickness is questionable unless we have pics..
 

militarysta

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you can calculate plate thickness by just looking at "outer" plates :O
Yes, becouse Type-96 frotnal hull gemotery is almoust the same as in T-54 :)
And on those photo set we can see thicknes of layers, and type of welding between upper paltes and lower hull plate. And it's esy to rescale this using track width as marker :)
And layers visible on photo give circa 140mm -even if there is more then layout max 150mm thick and slopped at 20. = 400mm max 450mm LOS
There is no other option in reality :)

About turret - yes, while Type-85 III and erly type-96 are measured then lets syay "late" Type-96 have diffrent layout and armour modules mounted by using top screws. And it's thickens is indeed diffrent then erly type-96.
And I have small problem to rescale it
 

militarysta

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BTW:
You have right about Type-96...



but hull was recalculated again using other factor and still: 450mm max :)
 

Sovngard

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Distinguish chinese tanks between them and their subvariants is way too hard, I give up ! :hair:
 
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militarysta

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btw:
Dazller, really i check this not onece, not twice, not tripple but more and Im confused:




front hull armour is well visible - backpate geometry is like in T-54 on this is added armour.
And it's thicknes is visible - and in ALL measurments/estimatous is the same result:
hull armour thickens is 50-55% of the turret armour thickens

So if turret have 800-850mm LOS for 0. then hull must be 400-450mm thick...

of course they are many way to estimatous thickenss, I made this many time and in case good quality photo i have error circa 3.5% in case bad qaulity photo it's ussaly 7,5-8%...
in case chineese tanks there is no many good quality photos so it's difficult.

But in case Leo-2A4, T-90A, and other tanks I had really small error... (les then 3%)
 
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shiphone

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ahh! pick and choose..

the discussion was solely on HULL ARMOUR THICKNESS in different versions, every one could see one has a 105mm and the other has 125mm smoothbore.

And, turret composite armour thickness in T-85IIAP is more than 600mm, it has been changed, twice.
HULL ARMOUR THICKNESS is one question ,but obviously you can't (couldn't) ID the difference between the 105mm and 125mm...
in post 8016 ,you mistook for the 105mm Type85/85II prototype as so called
96 (notice hull shape and slope)
and you don't know which one is the Type85III project, BTW, I made a mistake and the edit time was to the limit -------the attached armor block on Type85III is not ERA but ceramic armour block...
I have to say there were too many mistakes related to China stuff in your posts .....I didn't correct coz it's too many...
it is not so called ' pick and choose'...respecting the facts is the base of the discussion ...
--------------------
And, turret composite armour thickness in T-85IIAP is more than 600mm, it has been changed, twice.
450mm composite armour modul(turrent) + 80/100mm back plate would be more close to reality for the Type85IIAP of 1990 ....although some thickness increasing happened(it's true ...eg. the late Type96's thickness is a little bigger), I'm afaid so called 'more than 600mm' is another south Asia style exaggeration...the Hull Armour is always Weaker than the Turrent.

Pakistan Army tested 85IIAP's turrent composite armour modul and top front hull armour with the 100mm AT-gun ,125mm Tank Gun, and HEAT Warhead of some AT missile in May 1990. the result was well recorded in the book about Export tank projects history. so I know better the ability of these china tank armor... baseless exaggeration is not necessary...
 
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Meriv90

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I read about LOS,FCS etc.. etc.. on this topic (thanks to all, if what you write is correct i'm learning interesting things :) ) but one factor that i never read and that is quite important is cost.

Price, how cost effective are all the tanks you are mentioning?
 

Damian

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I read about LOS,FCS etc.. etc.. on this topic (thanks to all, if what you write is correct i'm learning interesting things :) ) but one factor that i never read and that is quite important is cost.

Price, how cost effective are all the tanks you are mentioning?
Tank as a weapon system is a cheap weapon system, cheap and effective.

Tank ammunition is one of the cheapest you can find, and also very effective.

Tanks do not burn as much fuel as for example aircrafts or navy vessels, and do not cost such astronomicly high prices as them.

Tanks can actually take, hold and control territory, no aerial platform can do this, and to operate in AO aerial platforms needs to constantly burn a lot of fuel, tanks, meh, you place them somewhere, turn off engines and voila.

Overall tanks, or ground combat armored vehicles, are very, very cheap, and very, very effective (if used properly by well trained and motivated crews).


It is that anoying aerospace industry and "flyboys" propaganda that shows tanks as cost inefficent or combat ineffective, while reality is very different.

Only just in recent years a serious analisis about weapon systems cost effectiveness and battle effectiveness were made, and all of these analisis are very in favor for tanks or ground combat vehicles in general.

Aerial platforms on the other hand are... meh, their costs are just too high, and capabilities overhyped.

Navy vessels are a bit different thing, however their costs are also astronomically high.

Paradoxally then, ground forces are the cheapest and most cost effective, while also being most numerous.
 

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