Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/7492-1965-indo-pak-war-facts-fiction.html
.
lets discuss that war further here

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

India's chief of army staff urged
negotiations on the ground that
they were running out
ammunition and their number of
tanks had become seriously
depleted. In fact, the army had
used less than 15% of its
ammunition compared to
Pakistan, which had consumed
closer to 80 percent and India had
double the number of serviceable
tanks.

 

[methos]

Yes our Arjun tank is not a collaboration but a completely indigenous tank. We have not taken the help of anyone in building such a tank. There was no Russia,US,China etc to help us. On the other the hand the Pakistani Al-Khalid was a collaboration with Chinese.

"Completely indigenous" is the Arjun tank not. The Arjun uses a number of imported key technologies (engine, transmission, parts of the fire control system).

I too do not have a very sound knowledge of this war. I am frankly no military history guy. However I have heard India pretty much won all the battles there.

Please discuss such stuff in the military history section. Besides, when a war or battle ends stalemate or with UN-enforced ceasefire, it is won by neither side. So you clearly say yourself that India did not won all battles/wars.

You can see that by hovering over the image. It says something like arjuntank armor geometry. As I am no expert I cannot say what it demonstrates clearly. However it does show us a good outline of the tank and its turrets and other things.I got it from the internet.

It clearly demonstrates that the turret geometry of the Arjun is faulty. This has been discussed in the Indian Army section of this forum ages ago,

 

[Damian]

What is the purpose of posting this image? What does it demonstrate? Where did you get this from?

You know what, the image shows rather lack of knowledge of person making it. As it is hypotethical for additional armor protection, the first version is actually immposible to create, simply because armor block makes driver hatch inoperable, driver just could not go out or in his position, unless he would use turret hatches.

Second variant is more realistic as wedge shaped ERA leaves enough places to open hatch and get out or in.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You asked questions and you have your answers, But now you are just trying to questions the answers given to you just to show your argument skills ..

There is nothing worth to reply your post just because it more of a rant, Sorry ..

And where is this SPH?
Canceled, maybe it will be rebirth, but till now it's fairytails.
So - exmaple of "future -never existed".
How it can be compare whit Krab SPH? (Crab 155mm)
It can;t be becouse Krab SPH exist in army and Bhim not, i fact it's not even close to be produce...


And how it's can be compare whit polish APC Rosomak? It cant be: Rosomak is used in big number and proof it's value in combat in extremly bad conditions, Kestrel is exist as mock-up and maybe fev protoipes. And more then decade later then polish ones Rosomak.

Seriously?!
what is this?
It's looks like polish 1998 prototoype "BWP-2000"

And it's the same poor project as polish BWP-2000 in 1998...
Oh, wait:
Mr. M Natarajan, appointed chief of the DRDO in August 2004, working on the Abhay, the ICV. Speaking after being formally appointed, he saaid: "The Abhay is under development. We see it as the future infantry combat vehicle for the Army. It will be a replacement for the Russian made BMPs that the Army has. It should be ready in two years." he said.

Polish BWP-2000 was canceled in 2000, and Indian "is under development", and look the same: outdated

Whole world is going in to universal medium tcked chassis for IFV and other (FRESH, SCOUT, etc), and in the same way it's going in Poland whit Anders, and now two new platforms.
So again, how to compare fact that Abhay is "under development" and it is (to be honest) on 1990s level, while rest of the wolrd is taking in to completly diffren direction?
IMHO Second Arjun in IA....

And till now:
a) faild
b) outdated on erly 1980s level. IN 2014!
Yes, reson to be proud- in 2014 ammo on level circa 1984!
About "soviet copy"
Til now Indian ammo industry is not able even to made it's ovn 125mm APFSDS. How many hundret tousands of the faliture amo was destroyed? What is result lack of any quality and problem whit IMI? You know this, and I know this - India is buing OUTDATED 3BM42 mango (DOI 1986) overpriced at 300%.
Again - it's not even funny,.

And new rifted indian 120mm modern APFSDS ammo is like Yeti - everybody hear nobody see.



Yes, INSAS - comparable to polish Beryl.
But whait:
what can be comparable whit MSBS?
hmm till now nothing?

It's amaizing how in theory super power as India whit giant economy (in compare to Poland) adn whit giant numbers of citizens, factories, enggeners etc is unable to end sevral weapons program.
Huge part of them is to long in time and result is outdated in the end.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Asian Defence News: Interior of T-84 Oplot MBT of the Royal Thai Army

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Damian, I cannot argue with someone who has no military experience with AR around ..

Sorry Kunal, they I will say you know nothing. I actually hold different AK variants including "Beryl" and I had opportunity to hold MSBS, INSAS compared to MSBS is a stone age weapon in terms of modularity, ergonomics, literally everything.

 

[militarysta]

You asked questions and you have your answers, But now you are just trying to questions the answers given to you just to show your argument skills ..

There is nothing worth to reply your post just because it more of a rant, Sorry ..

Kunal, no offence but I hardly recomend You to read again wmy posts whit understanding what you are reading acually.
I know that my written english is worse then bad, OK I akcpet this, but IMHO I had been writting clear enought.

User @Bhadra had sytarted completly stupid flameware writing in style:

We are making better tanks as Arjun Mk II better than Poland.. (...)
We will make better tanks than poland...

Before writing whit sucht maner it's good to check how it's look in both countries - India and Poland.
And I had written why:
compare non-existing indian land weapons sytem during decades development proces whit existing polish ones and then compare rather medium european country (Poland) whit circa 40 bilions peoples inside whit whole India whit more then miliard citizens.
And starts to be funny couse despite non comparable Poland - India economy, citizens, etc evirnoments we have conclusion that most program in India are taking decades and result is funny: Arjun, Arjun -Catapult, etc.

and clue of whole post:
and I can give mucht more example sucht too long in time and whit so weak in result program in India, and in compare sucesfull in Poland.
I wasn;t talking about lack of any result in India, I was writing about poor result of this wested decades in many weapons types in India.

Tell my - what was not true above? Hmm?
Obvious incomparable potential giant India and rather small (in compare) Poland? or economy? In fact there is nothing to compare - India is young superpower and Poland is medium size central europe conuntry.
but
when You compare result of the developing process in Poland and in Idnia then you will realize that really big India have enormous number of tottally faild prjects or canceled or taking decades (Bhim, Arjun, Abhay, INSAS, 120 and 125mm ammo, etc) while small (in compare) Poland have many sucesfull project - analogy to Indian ones.
Bhim vs Crab (Krab)
BWP2000 -> Anders ->WPG vs Abhay
Rosomak vs Kestrel
Beryl vs INSAS
MSBS and Titan project vs F-INSAS etc

You can compare sucht project and this compare is not good at all when we realiza how big potential have India and how it is waisted during decades :-/

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

================ Not needed :/ ==================

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@methos , first learn english 'couse' ( ?) polish language not allowed here
.
tell me projects which are failed and I will tell you. .
as far arjun concerned ,it is best tank right now in subcontinent,
.
what @Bhadra says is true ,
.
and don't try to compare lolish poland with india by just one or two advancements
.
no nuclear weapons
.
no advance jets of level of tejas
.
no ICBM , no space program .

 

[methos]

@methos , first learn english 'couse' ( ?) polish language not allowed here

I do not speak Polish. But unlike you, I know the basic rules of the English language and have learned a decent vocabulary. You even fail at recognizing the name of the person you want to reply to. Learn to read the context of the discussion, proper English grammar and punctuation.

 

[militarysta]

@abhi_the _gr8_maratha
so adult argument "we are superpower, we have nukes and you not - India strong!11111!"
more seriously - when you will realize that sucht argument is in fact insult for your country and in fact phatetic here?
You must escape it to direction "superpower" thinks like nukes, IBCM, space program etc becouse on lower level - conventional warfare many program in India (Bhim, Bhay, etc) faild in compare to polish analoges, and in fact even "sucefull" program like INSAS are not better then analoges - for example Beryl, but they are ussaly decade later after polish ones...
So sucht argument about "superpower" IBCM and nukes in in fact extremly stupid - if more and more you will notice how big is India and how small is Poland then stronger will be visible how many program had faild in India or achive really "typical" level in compare to small, not super power, nukeless Poland projects.
So turning in this direction is not helping you in discussion

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I do not speak Polish. But unlike you, I know the basic rules of the English language and have learned a decent vocabulary. You even fail at recognizing the name of the person you want to reply to. Learn to read the context of the discussion, proper English grammar and punctuation.

sorry for mistake

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Does Poland is a third world and has mass corruption in defense like we do in India ..

and I can give mucht more example sucht too long in time and whit so weak in result program in India, and in compare sucesfull in Poland. I wasn;t talking about lack of any result in India, I was writing about poor result of this wested decades in many weapons types in India. /

 

[Santu]

@methos , first learn english 'couse' ( ?) polish language not allowed here
.
tell me projects which are failed and I will tell you. .
as far arjun concerned ,it is best tank right now in subcontinent,
.
what @Bhadra says is true ,
.
and don't try to compare lolish poland with india by just one or two advancements
.
no nuclear weapons
.
no advance jets of level of tejas
.
no ICBM , no space program .

If you ask me, They don't need any... when we are in trouble no one will help us.. so it's needed for us to develop technologies.. when Poland will be in trouble , whole NATO comes to rescue them.. that's the difference.. And if poland is kind of calm contry.. they didnt participate in a direct war since world war-2 .. according to threat perception poland is much more safer country than india.. We got pakistan and chinese are on our back.. necessity is the mother of invention

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

If you ask me, They don't need any... when we are in trouble no one will help us.. so it's needed for us to develop technologies.. when Poland will be in trouble , whole NATO comes to rescue them.. that's the difference.. And if poland is kind of calm contry.. they didnt participate in a direct war since world war-2 .. according to threat perception poland is much more safer country than india.. We got pakistan and chinese are on our back.. necessity is the mother of invention

but here indians are much more peaceful than polish one

 

[Damian]

By the way, this is large OT on small arms, can it be redirected to a more appropriate topic?

 

[Santu]

@Damian, @militarysta, @Kunal Biswas , @abhi_the _gr8_maratha ,

Sir , It's pointless to argue about Polish or Indian capability in building military weapons.. In simple words polish army is using leopard which is advanced compared to arjun.. And india has advancements in many areas like space , nuclear weapons and now we are gradually improving self reliance in defence.. I m hopeful that one day Arjun-X will be in the list of top three tanks in the world.... But for that we need to upgrade arjun constantly.. that's what lacks in india.. why cant DRDO continuously work on Tank Armour (upgrade by upgrade for every few months) ?? They start working on it when they plan to upgrade the tank.. make development as continuous process.. and main problem is they just do the things according to requirement.... It's nthng great in meeting requirement after spending decades of time on development.. product should Excel.. One best example i can give. Assume 3 companies are Contesting for tank design.. then by nature it will motivate people in those organization to excel in design which is not case in india.. DRDO is sole player.. and on top of that indians are smart (and we hav finnest set of engineers) but main problem is even in research we just do what we are assigned.. This mentality should change.. Then i m sure india will be one of the best exporter of military weapons

 

[militarysta]

there is no variant of beryl on wikipedia
.
do you know how to calculate IQ?

I answered here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/3796-assault-rifle-143.html

 

[Peter]

there is no variant of beryl on wikipedia
.
do you know how to calculate IQ?

It is useless arguing with them mate. They know more than us as they are military guys. However as pmaitra,santu had said India should continue upgrading Arjun tank. In times of war no one will come to our help as was evident from gps incident during kargil.