Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

Yeah, right, there is, where, show me, give me a proof! Oh wait, there is none? Oh poor poor boy...

 

[bose]

Ha but we had, and we admitted it.

Do you know what is difference between our logic and yours?

We improve through criticism, we have critical approach to everything, even when we design something that works, we constantly search for it's weak sides and try to improve, contrary to saying everyone "oh look how good thing we designed, and it is indigeneus"...

It is not only you !! but all does the same... Desist from lecturing here...

 

[Damian]

It is not only you !! but all does the same... Desist from lecturing here...

Nope, as I can see, Indians do not apply to this rule. I can only see "Arjun is the best", "Indigenous is better" and such BS.

 

[bose]

Nope, as I can see, Indians do not apply to this rule. I can only see "Arjun is the best", "Indigenous is better" and such BS.

You see nothing !! failed attempt to put Arjun in bad light...

 

[Peter]

There is no such book kid. And really, if you think that you can insult me by using such primitive attempts then you are really not very adult.



What we non Indians see, is constant claims that "Arjun is the best, Arjun will beat other tanks" etc. BS.

You can be proud, but be proud the smart way.



So I should lie and don't say the truth, what I see and what I think? And I am very honest, Arjun is not impressive in any way. Have some good design sollutions like suspension system, but it is not innovative, neither impressive, use very obsolete main armament system, and have very serious weak spots in protection. As I said, nothing impressive.



How do you know it is better? Pakistan for example uses very advanced tank, Ukrainian T-80UD, which is better than both your T-90S and Arjun. The only problem Pakistanis have, is that they have only 320 T-80UD's.



Resources are not the problem, the problem is lack of experience, lack of tank designing school, lack of tradition in building tanks. Without that you can spend tremendous amount of money, and that will never be a true success.

I remember a words of one of GDLS engineers working on M1 tank, he said "if we do not know the past, we can't go in to future, because we will make the same mistakes all over again". A very smart words.

You Indians have obsession with indigeneus designs, and thus you do not learn anything from ones that are more experienced, and thus you make fatal mistakes.

Well would you compare a toddler`s performance to a high school graduate student`s one. Don`t you think our engineers need some encouragement.As per your own words the Pakis are "using" "Ukrainian tanks". We have at least built our own tank. It may not be perfect. Yes it may have flaws. However it is our first step to building the perfect tank.

You had been saying of learning from the past and criticism of our own ideas. How can there be a past if there is no present? Arjun is presently a decent tank. Well when we build the next tank Arjun will serve as that past tank from which we can learn. We can get experience only by trying out our own ideas and our Indian engineers have done so by building Arjun. We do want to learn from our mistakes and that is the reason we have build the Arjun. If a person does not get a chance how will he prove himself. I believe our experience will only grow from the Arjun tank.

Well sir you would at least admit the fact that building our very own tank is better than using imported "Ukrainian" ones or copying hook and line from American ones.

 

[methos]

The way you are arguing without any reference... Are you referring to yourself IDIOT ??

So I am an idiot, because I demand you people to live by your own words? You guys provide no sources, so I don't see any reason for me to do so.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I told you to read the book . Can you read hindi? No! Then forget , you can't do it. So simply you never will know more about arjun

 

[Damian]

Well would you compare a toddler`s performance to a high school graduate student`s one. Don`t you think our engineers need some encouragement.

I think they should rather go to some other country and learn from more experienced engineers.

As per your own words the Pakis are "using" "Ukrainian tanks". We have at least built our own tank. It may not be perfect. Yes it may have flaws. However it is our first step to building the perfect tank.

You what would happen in normal country with Arjun program? It would be cancelled. Developing a tank for so many decades is just insane. I would wish how many money from tax payers was wasted to finally put this thing in service.

Pakistanis made much better deal in terms of costs and effectiveness ratio.

You had been saying of learning from the past and criticism of our own ideas. How can there be a past if there is no present? Arjun is presently a decent tank. Well when we build the next tank Arjun will serve as that past tank from which we can learn. We can get experience only by trying out our own ideas and our Indian engineers have done so by building Arjun. We do want to learn from our mistakes and that is the reason we have build the Arjun. If a person does not get a chance how will he prove himself. I believe our experience will only grow from the Arjun tank.

The problem is that per international standards, Arjun is a very bad tank. And as a project it was horribly managed. Normally it would be cancelled 10 or more years ago.

Much more cheaper would be to learn from others. I do not see a problem that instead of DRDO, your new tank would be builded on order by foreing company.

Other thing is that DRDO is a state owned engineering bureau, state owned is allways less effective than private.

Well sir you would at least admit the fact that building our very own tank is better than using imported "Ukrainian" ones or copying hook and line from American ones.

Why? If Ukrainian or American tank is better, I choose a better design. Indigenous design does not mean better design.

I told you to read the book . Can you read hindi? No! Then forget , you can't do it. So simply you never will know more about arjun

But what book, show me this book. I can learn Hindi if I would wish to, so if there is such book I want to see it, then perhaps I will learn Hindi and read it.

But I know that such book does not exist.

 

[Peter]

I think they should rather go to some other country and learn from more experienced engineers.

Why? If Ukrainian or American tank is better, I choose a better design. Indigenous design does not mean better design.



But what book, show me this book. I can learn Hindi if I would wish to, so if there is such book I want to see it, then perhaps I will learn Hindi and read it.

But I know that such book does not exist.

I am not saying that we have the best design of tanks. I have no knowledge on tanks unlike you. I cannot prove anything about tanks. I am not actually saying anything about design actually.

All I am saying is trying to do something is better than sitting still,doing nothing and using other things. Well from my personal experience I once built a very crude fan. Yes that fan was poorly designed, very impractical and was never used by my family members or even by me. Also it used to stop working very frequently. However I am still proud of it. I believe if I had tried harder I could have built a better one. Trying to do something is a very important thing.
It seems the western world has only places for the very best. The weak,average people are just not seen properly as it is evident from your comments.

Also FYI in the 1972 Pakistan India war, we beat back the Pakis, who were using the latest american tanks, using our old russian tanks. Not only tanks, we even beat them on the aerial front using old Mig 21s while the pakis used the latest american planes.

 

[bose]

I am not saying that we have the best design of tanks. I have no knowledge on tanks unlike you. I cannot prove anything about tanks. I am not actually saying anything about design actually.

All I am saying is trying to do something is better than sitting still,doing nothing and using other things. Well from my personal experience I once built a very crude fan. Yes that fan was poorly designed, very impractical and was never used by my family members or even by me. Also it used to stop working very frequently. however I am and still proud of it. I believe if I had tried harder I could have built a better one. Trying to do something is a very important thing.
It seems the western world has only places for the very best. The weak,average people are just not seen properly as it is evident from your comments.

Also FYI in the 1972 Pakistan India war, we beat back the Pakis, who were using the latest american tanks, using our old russian tanks. Not only tanks, we even beat them on the aerial front using old Mig 21s while the pakis used the latest american planes.

Not to forget the mighty capable US Patton Tanks were lying in their graveyard...

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

arjun a bad tank, so what about T90 which is inferior to arjun
.
tell of how much money you got to advertise those tanks . Those tanks are vulnerable in himalayas (arjun too) ,
.
clearly you want money for your nation so you are telling not to manufacture indigenous and buy foreign one.
.
though many of those 30 years went for infrastructure development and the hard test by IA also in this 30 years span and it takes 15 year to develop a new tank scrap and many says design phase of arjun started in 1990

 

[Sea Eagle]

arjun a bad tank, so what about T90 which is inferior to arjun

Indian T-90s might be inferior to Arjun but that doesn't hold true for Russian ones

 

[Peter]

Indian T-90s might be inferior to Arjun but that doesn't hold true for Russian ones

Well mate it seems your love for Russia is greater than my affinity for USA. The Indian T90s are no different from Russian ones. In preliminary testing the Arjun tank was better than T90`s. This is a fact. Again I am not saying that Arjun is the best but it is a decent tank which can get the job done according to army officials and maybe better than T90`s. Then again I am no tank expert so I maybe wrong.

 

[SilentKiller]

Sorry, I am not a poet, so I don't give a shit about your poetic babble talk.



I think you are confused boy.

In 1991 USA defeated Iraqi army in 100 hours, in 2003 it took US Army 3 months to completely conquer Iraq and defeat Iraqi army. However these were regular wars, after 2003 OIF regular war phase, there was stabilization and assymetric war phase with terrorists and insurgents, it is different kind of war, and tanks performance have nothing to do with it.



You speek about yourself?

Good to know that you are at least that humble to admit who you are.

And seriously, do not even consider to try fighting with me in discussion, I will eat on breakfest boy.



Actually USA defeated it's economic crisis. What is more important, Russia, China and India have nothing to counter US economy. Look at this, USA have one of the largest reserves of oil and gas, you know what happens when they release these reserves on free market? Countries with their economy based on oil and gas crumbles because prices go down and their income go down. So literally USA have Russia's, Saudi Arabia and so on balls in their hand.

China is also slowing down their economy because manufacturer costs rises in China, also due to ineffective investitions, China have probably larger hidden debt than the whole USA debt. When Chinese products will be less and less attractive and when manufacturing will go out China, Chinese economy will have problems. Why? Because only companies that will stay they will be Chinese state manufacturers not private ones, and state manufacturing is less effective than private.

Sorry boy you know nothing about geopolitics and economy.

Well USA is too powerful....that's a fact
But let u tell u few facts of wars US faced Iraq - Navy almost none so a country without one cannot stop an invasion.
Post 1991 when iraq tried hard to save its assets but 12 long years of sanctions with no upgrades and no new equipment u r bound to lose.
2003 its airforce become negligible, most of the iraqi armored loses were from up air, Apache and A-10 takes most of the credit or what Americans claim as u trust western facts more please consider them as all r from americans only.

Another historical fact - germans were superiors in tech but they lost as they were alone, were wrong (what i feel) and they lost to numbers not tech of soviets or americans, so be afraid of ones who can produce chucks in their plants and they r chinese and wait it will be same for india soon .

Poland and most of east European nations r left on mercy of NATO, we r seeing what Russians are doing to Ukraine and what it did to Georgia.
Poland needs friends because of the position it is in, we can be ur friends so treat us same to get back same in future.
We might not be a superpower now but a potential as claimed by Americans u believe.
U don't have anything for americans or world to come to ur help unless good friends, remember that as power changes hands with time as history is known to repeat itself.

 

[SilentKiller]

Really, have any proof for that? Because we can use technical data analisis.

M1A1 uses 1500HP Gas Turbine engine and weights in this version around 60 tons. We need to take around 100HP that is used for cooling and auxiliaries, so there is around 1400HP avaiable for transmission and sprockets.

Arjun uses 1400HP diesel, and weights also around 60 tons. We also need to take around 100HP for cooling and auxiliaries, so there is only 1300HP avaiable for transmission and sprockets.

Arjun weight is similiar, but have a weaker engine, so no, Arjun will not go faster from mud pit. It also depends on mud pit, on driver skills and so on.



I will be honest with you, I have very low opinion about you. You do not provide anything interesting to this topic, besides typical for your kind babble talk, and incredibly weak english, not to mention lacking in capabilities like reading with understanding.

Is an APU considered in ur figures??
Do a M1A2 has APU and what's its power compared to Arjun's.

Before u comment am not a tank expert but a dedicated reader and love to read view points of everyone and respect them too.
For me my Army's tanks are good and best in world as i love my army and nation, they might not be Top 1 but surely if we cannot support our own equipment we will never improve to make them rank 1.

Arjun Mk2 answered ur queries/questions a lot and wait for Mk3 it will answer further more.

 

[SilentKiller]

Maybe, or maybe not, but ground pressure don't make a lot of different for 60+ tons heavy vehicles.



No, NGAP or Next Generation Armor Package that will be installed on modernized tanks with ECP1 upgrades.

http://leanermoreagileabct.com/pdfs/Abrams_brochure.pdf

But in 71 and 65 war's heavy pakistani tanks suffered a lot because of their ground pressure.
So heavier a tank with bad ground pressure more difficult it will be it to move over marshes/fertile lands etc
They just got bogged down, couldn't go over sand dunes of thar.
Diff b/w any nation and india is we have these things on only 1 front with pakistan
desert, marshes, canals, fertile lands, rivers (huge one) so making a take to come in flying colors on all is quite a challenging task.

 

[methos]

I told you to read the book . Can you read hindi? No! Then forget , you can't do it. So simply you never will know more about arjun

One does not need to read Hindi in order to read about the Arjun. Hilmes and Jane's both wrote (sub-)chapters about the Arjun in some of their books.

All I am saying is trying to do something is better than sitting still,doing nothing and using other things.
[...]
It seems the western world has only places for the very best. The weak,average people are just not seen properly as it is evident from your comments.

In Western countries there are some rules for the procurement of military equipment which were not followed by the Indian government when introducing the Arjun.
In NATO countries one does not simply say "we build a tank, because we want our own", but when developing and purchasing a new tank several factors are considered (like the costs, the performance, if other alternatives from different countries are better, etc.). Keeping a project which exceeds the original planned development costs by more than 5 times and the original planned unit costs by 20 times is something people in Europe and the US won't do. It simply is a waste of money.

The Arjun project has become redundant when the Indian army had to buy T-90s because the DRDO did not manage to provide working tanks in the required time. Open your eyes: With more than 2,000 T-90s planned to be in service until 2020, there simply is not much reason for the Arjun (other than the huge unnecessary investment in the past).

Western people know that there are many people and products which are not the best. But people here are pretending that the Arjun is the best tank possible with the best armour of any third generation tank.

Also FYI in the 1972 Pakistan India war, we beat back the Pakis, who were using the latest american tanks, using our old russian tanks. Not only tanks, we even beat them on the aerial front using old Mig 21s while the pakis used the latest american planes.

Just because something is made in the US, it doesn't have to be better than all Soviet stuff. The Pakistani army never operated the M60 (which was first introduced in 1961), but only the M48 Patton II tank. So, the Pakis did de facto not use "the latest american tanks", but "two decades old American tanks in combination with old ammunition".

arjun a bad tank, so what about T90 which is inferior to arjun

The T-90is not inferior to the Arjun. It has a number of advantages you are ignoring like the lower fuel consumption, the lower weight, the better turret layout and the more potent gun and ammunition combination.

The Indian T90s are no different from Russian ones. In preliminary testing the Arjun tank was better than T90`s. This is a fact.

This is wrong. The Indian T-90 (T-90S) is a different model and inferior to the Russian T-90A and further improved variants.

 

[SilentKiller]

What a bunch of BS...

You can't achieve all around protection, simply because due to weight and dimensions issues, you can't place composite armor all around a tank.

Not to mention that Arjun definetely does not have the best protection. In fact in this term it is completely obsolete design, with huge weak zones in turret frontal and side projections.

It was explained so many times, I even made a bunch of drawings so people could understand, but nooo, they still need to lie about true capabilities of their beloved tank...

but i guess Mk2 solved a lot of side protection issues, u don't know what material kanchan is made of it will be a secret same as chobham armor.
Front might be a little bit issue but am sure in further improvements it too will be solved.

 

[Peter]

One does not need to read Hindi in order to read about the Arjun. Hilmes and Jane's both wrote (sub-)chapters about the Arjun in some of their books.




In Western countries there are some rules for the procurement of military equipment which were not followed by the Indian government when introducing the Arjun.
In NATO countries one does not simply say "we build a tank, because we want our own", but when developing and purchasing a new tank several factors are considered (like the costs, the performance, if other alternatives from different countries are better, etc.). Keeping a project which exceeds the original planned development costs by more than 5 times and the original planned unit costs by 20 times is something people in Europe and the US won't do. It simply is a waste of money.

The Arjun project has become redundant when the Indian army had to buy T-90s because the DRDO did not manage to provide working tanks in the required time. Open your eyes: With more than 2,000 T-90s planned to be in service until 2020, there simply is not much reason for the Arjun (other than the huge unnecessary investment in the past).

Western people know that there are many people and products which are not the best. But people here are pretending that the Arjun is the best tank possible with the best armour of any third generation tank.




Just because something is made in the US, it doesn't have to be better than all Soviet stuff. The Pakistani army never operated the M60 (which was first introduced in 1961), but only the M48 Patton II tank. So, the Pakis did de facto not use "the latest american tanks", but "two decades old American tanks in combination with old ammunition".




The T-90is not inferior to the Arjun. It has a number of advantages you are ignoring like the lower fuel consumption, the lower weight, the better turret layout and the more potent gun and ammunition combination.




This is wrong. The Indian T-90 (T-90S) is a different model and inferior to the Russian T-90A and further improved variants.

Well I am no expert as I have already said, maybe you are right, I do not know. Let me accept your argument on the tanks. However I cannot do so on 1972 war.

This is ot,but the Pakis did have better planes than us,yet they messed up in their plans. You cannot deny this fact.

 

[pmaitra]

Good discussion so far, folks.

It is my personal view that India should patronize Arjun more, instead of buying hordes of T-90, but that is besides the point.

To keep it objective, let's have a re-look at the thread title.

We have dedicated threads on indigenization, or if you guys want, I can create one.