Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Dazzler]

Which I proved to be a false story. And I don't know how primitive Type-59 could be better, this thing does not have even fire control system. Do You know how difficult is to hit anything beyond 1000 meters without fire control system? I guess not.

Pakistanis are funny with their funny statements.

Seriously, try to use a stadia range reticle, and hit targets with better accuracy than a modern fire control system with laser range finder and ballistic computer can. It is just immposible to achieve such results.

Oh BTW, this TV show is also funny. Non existing meritoric value, some good shots which might provide limited material for analisis. Nothing more really.

whatever pleases your ego man

 

[Damian]

whatever pleases your ego man

It is not about ego, but about logic. Logic stands against such ridicoulous claims. And logic is superior to faith in to something.

Seriously, did You at least single time in your life, had opprotunity to use a stadia range finder? Just like the one used in ZTZ-59? I do not even talk about real tank but a simulator?

In other words, using such range finder is a pain in the ass, and to hit a single target even from stationary position, means you need to fire several rounds before you hit.

Claiming that a vehicle with such primitive aiming system is more accurate than vehicle with laser range finder, just shows how dumb is person making such claims.

Even if we assume that there was malfunction of digital fire control system (and in such situation crew should abort any actions and inform superior about malfunction), or sights were not boresighted with armament, or it was done wrongly, still a digital FCS should have a superior performance.

This is logic, a facts.

 

[Dazzler]

It is not about ego, but about logic. Logic stands against such ridicoulous claims. And logic is superior to faith in to something.

Seriously, did You at least single time in your life, had opprotunity to use a stadia range finder? Just like the one used in ZTZ-59? I do not even talk about real tank but a simulator?

In other words, using such range finder is a pain in the ass, and to hit a single target even from stationary position, means you need to fire several rounds before you hit.

Claiming that a vehicle with such primitive aiming system is more accurate than vehicle with laser range finder, just shows how dumb is person making such claims.

Even if we assume that there was malfunction of digital fire control system (and in such situation crew should abort any actions and inform superior about malfunction), or sights were not boresighted with armament, or it was done wrongly, still a digital FCS should have a superior performance.

This is logic, a facts.

I cant convince an ignorant, gave you references but you remain an M1 fanatic so be what you are then.

 

[Damian]

I cant convince an ignorant, gave you references but you remain an M1 fanatic so be what you are then.

Only one ignorant here is you. You didn't give me anything valuable really.

Not to mention that you don't have even smallest idea how fire control system works in modern tanks, and how aiming procedures are performed in old tanks.

I ask again, did you even once in your life, had at least opportunity to check this in simulator at least?

No? Then shut up, because I am tired to talk with people that lack any knowledge about specific subject and try to play smart asses on internet forums.

Get back here when you will have opprotunity to play with fire control system of any tank, be it real thing or a simulator.

Oh I can even help you, here, this is link to ESim, developer of the Steel Beasts simulator, you can there try fire control systems of different tanks, be it M1, Leopard 2 or T-72M1. You can even compare there how easy is to aim and fire by use of main sight connected to fire control system and how difficult is to aim and precisely fire at targets using simple auxiliary sight that have a stadia range finder.

In the new 3.0 version, there will be added playable T-62 that have only simple stadia range finder, so no laser range finder, no ballistic computer, only stadia at sight crosshair and your own brain to calculate distance.

You will then see how hilarious are your claims and faith in to things written by people same as you, complete ignorants in case of AFV's subject of discussion, and that have absolutely no idea how to operate AFV's.

STEELBEASTS.COM - HOME

As you can see, Steel Beasts is also used by several militaries around the world, which itself shows how good simulation it is.

Besides this. It is funny how people from 3rd world countries are incapable to answer simple and logical text... it seems you people are only capable to call someone fanatic.

So, can I at least have hope you will be capable to answer in a merithoric way, how for a gods or any other divine creature, it would be possible, that a primitive, yes primitive vehicle, like ZTZ-59, with primitive sighting system, could be better during gunnery, than a modern vehicle with modern fire control system (not matters M1 or any other comparable vehicle)?

 

[Dazzler]

Only one ignorant here is you. You didn't give me anything valuable really.

Not to mention that you don't have even smallest idea how fire control system works in modern tanks, and how aiming procedures are performed in old tanks.

I ask again, did you even once in your life, had at least opportunity to check this in simulator at least?

No? Then shut up, because I am tired to talk with people that lack any knowledge about specific subject and try to play smart asses on internet forums.

Get back here when you will have opprotunity to play with fire control system of any tank, be it real thing or a simulator.

Oh I can even help you, here, this is link to ESim, developer of the Steel Beasts simulator, you can there try fire control systems of different tanks, be it M1, Leopard 2 or T-72M1. You can even compare there how easy is to aim and fire by use of main sight connected to fire control system and how difficult is to aim and precisely fire at targets using simple auxiliary sight that have a stadia range finder.

In the new 3.0 version, there will be added playable T-62 that have only simple stadia range finder, so no laser range finder, no ballistic computer, only stadia at sight crosshair and your own brain to calculate distance.

You will then see how hilarious are your claims and faith in to things written by people same as you, complete ignorants in case of AFV's subject of discussion, and that have absolutely no idea how to operate AFV's.

STEELBEASTS.COM - HOME

Besides this. It is funny how people from 3rd world countries are incapable to answer simple and logical text... it seems you people are only capable to call someone fanatic.

You can prove me wrong that M1 never failed at Baawalpur /khairpur trials, that too repeatedly. Also, feel free to prove a former COAS and serving cavalry officer Major Hasnain wrong, simple

While Gen Zia had favored the US built M1 Abrams for a whopping US$700 million purchase, his successor Gen Mirza Aslam Beg opted for the US $1 billion Al-Khalid manufacturing plant to build 2000 main battle tanks with Chinese cooperation. While Gen Beg's US$1 billion Al-Khalid plan was still operational, his successor Gen Asif Nawaz went full swing to conclude a US$ 450 million purchase for 320 T-72 tanks from Poland. Before the deal could be finalized, General Asif Nawaz died mysteriously.

General Asif Nawaz' successor Gen Abdul Wahid Kakar's team of experts rejected the deal out rightly, citing the reasons that could form the basis for a NAB investigation. Gen Abdul Wahid Kakar then targeted the Al-Khalid program.

In 1996, General Jehangir Karamat, successor to General Waheed, however, focused on the purchase of Russian tanks from Ukraine. He struck a US$550 million deal with Ukraine, which at that time did not even have a diplomatic presence in Pakistan for 320 T- 80 UD tanks. General Asif Nawaz had finalized plans to buy the same 320 tanks for $ 450 million. The deal finally cost US $ 650 million to the nation. A course mate of General Jahangir Karamat, Colonel (retd) Mahmood had played a key role in bringing the GHQ and the Ukrainian government close to a deal.

It is rumored that during his last meeting with Gen Jehangir Karamat, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif indicated to the former COAS the outcome of his probe against the Ukrainian tank deal in case he refused to resign. Jahangir Karamat chose to resign rather than face the inquiry.

Although Pakistan builds Al-Khalid tanks, allegations of kickbacks in the Al-Khalid project had surfaced several times in the past. A number of former army chiefs had strong reservations about this expansive project that caused huge delays in the completion of the project.

 

[Damian]

You can prove me wrong that M1 never failed at Baawalpur /khairpur trials, that too repeatedly. Also, feel free to prove a former COAS and serving cavalry officer Major Hasnain wrong, simple

I proved this, by using logic, and knowledge about how these things works.

If you and your relatives from Pakistan are incapable to understand such simple things, then this is really not my problem.

And I doubt that Major Hasnain even have a smallest idea how fire control system works in different tanks. As far as I can see, he have a sentiment to obsolete piece of junk, the ZTZ-59.

Not to mention that it is very funny how all your high rank officers die in mysterious ways, it shows in how bad shape is Pakistan if a senior military officers dies and seems to not have sort of reliable protection.

So before you start to talk about technical issues, first start to make your own country and it's insitutions to work properly.

 

[Dazzler]

I proved this, by using logic, and knowledge about how these things works.


And I doubt that Major Hasnain even have a smallest idea how fire control system works in different tanks. As far as I can see, he have a sentiment to obsolete piece of junk, the ZTZ-59.

may a cavalry officer never hear this or he will commit suicide, the man wasted 20 years in cavalry

 

[Damian]

may a cavalry officer never hear this or he will commit suicide, the man wasted 20 years in cavalry

And you think that 20 years in cavalry unit makes his authority? I seen soldiers from around the world that don't have smallest idea how fire control systems work on vehicles they serve. It is because soldiers are taught to push the right buttons and make basic maintnance not to know all details about the weapon system.

I do not have such limitations and I can increase my knowledge. Not to mention that I am educating myself to be and work with defence industry.

Is there something hard to understand for you?

Besides this. Do you even know how these different aiming systems work, or not?

Probably not, so I am unfortunetely sentenced to watch more of your idiotic comments that do not add anything interesting to this thread.

 

[Dazzler]

And you think that 20 years in cavalry unit makes his authority? I seen soldiers from around the world that don't have smallest idea how fire control systems work on vehicles they serve. It is because soldiers are taught to push the right buttons and make basic maintnance not to know all details about the weapon system.

I do not have such limitations and I can increase my knowledge. Not to mention that I am educating myself to be and work with defence industry.

Is there something hard to understand for you?

Besides this. Do you even know how these different aiming systems work, or not?

Probably not, so I am unfortunetely sentenced to watch more of your idiotic comments that do not add anything interesting to this thread.

The Pakistan Cauldron: Conspiracy, Assassination & Instability - James P. Farwell - Google Books

 

[Damian]

And? Anything new? Detailed? No, just the same copy and paste story which have no support in logic?

I think I start to understand Indians and their opinion about Pakistan and Pakistanis.

 

[Dazzler]

And? Anything new? Detailed? No, just the same copy and paste story which have no support in logic?

I think I start to understand Indians and their opinion about Pakistan and Pakistanis.

be free in your beliefs

 

[Damian]

These are not beliefs but image you present to me about your own country, nation and what a mess it is.

There are no details about tests, just some funny stories. In fact these tests does not even look like a tests but a stunt show for some fat officials. Why there was only a single gunnery range run not at least two? Why there are no details or reports? Why the story is not backed up by a serious materials like photos or videos showing the whole gunnery range run?

And I can talk whole week why the whole thing is absolute FUBAR.

Besides this, your source shows that your own country is rulled by incompetent politicians and officers (at least back then) which are more concerned about religion and ideology than things that are more important.

And more questions araise with this lecture and things you post.

Why a cheaper M1 deal was cancelled in favor of a more expensive licence for a Chinese tank? Perhaps bribery from Chinese? Corruption among high rank officials seems to not be something uncommon in Pakistan as we can see from the corruption index world wide.

 

[Dazzler]

These are not beliefs but image you present to me about your own country, nation and what a mess it is.

There are no details about tests, just some funny stories. In fact these tests does not even look like a tests but a stunt show for some fat officials. Why there was only a single gunnery range run not at least two? Why there are no details or reports? Why the story is not backed up by a serious materials like photos or videos showing the whole gunnery range run?

And I can talk whole week why the whole thing is absolute FUBAR.

Besides this, your source shows that your own country is rulled by incompetent politicians and officers (at least back then) which are more concerned about religion and ideology than things that are more important.

List of "wrong and biased" people who presented M1 Abrams trials in pakistan or dared to reject them..

* BBC report

* COAS Aslam Beg

* Major Hasnain Haider

* Zaloga

* Farrell

* Muhammad Hanif (military historian)

* Janes Armour and Arty magazine

* more to come..

All failed because none stood up to the benchmark set by Damian to refute anything against mighty M1 Abrams

 

[Damian]

List of "wrong and biased" people who presented M1 Abrams trials in pakistan or dared to reject them..

* BBC report

* COAS Aslam Beg

* Major Hasnain Haider

* Zaloga

* Farrell

* Muhammad Hanif (military historian)

* Janes Armour and Arty magazine

* more to come..

Steven Zaloga does not write anything about M1 failure. BBC is not reliable source, what we be next, a silly Pakistani like you, will base knowledge about astro physics on BBC documentaries? Major Hasnain talks some silly things. I ask again, how a obsolete tank ZTZ-59 with a simple stadia range finder and without any ballistic computer, can be superior in accuracy to a modern tank with laser range finder and digital ballistic computer that is even capable to calculate lead on targets? Rest of these "sources" are hardly reliable, maybe besides Jane's, but even Jane's is not 100% reliable.

All failed because none stood up to the benchmark set by Damian to refute anything against mighty M1 Abrams

I completely understand that you have problems with having low IQ and problems with comprehending reality and what other people write, but please, start to behave like a member of a sentient spiecies and start to answer in a meritorhic way, are you capable to do that, or should I consider you a separate species member, not a member of homo sapiens sapiens?


Other thing is that M1's combat record shows really good accuracy during stationay and mobile gunnery, and I am damn happy that M1 does not serve in Pakistan, you would definetely leak technology to China... speaking of which, I wonder if Pakistan is not standing behind interest of Chinese in Ukrainian engines, which might be problematic for Ukrainians. Chinese are not known for their respect to other nations developments, and are very eager to copy everything they can, well let's just hope they won't be capable to copy 6TD engines for a very long time.

 

[Dazzler]

Steven Zaloga does not write anything about M1 failure. BBC is not reliable source, what we be next, a silly Pakistani like you, will base knowledge about astro physics on BBC documentaries? Major Hasnain talks some silly things. I ask again, how a obsolete tank ZTZ-59 with a simple stadia range finder and without any ballistic computer, can be superior in accuracy to a modern tank with laser range finder and digital ballistic computer that is even capable to calculate lead on targets? Rest of these "sources" are hardly reliable, maybe besides Jane's, but even Jane's is not 100% reliable.



I completely understand that you have problems with having low IQ and problems with comprehending reality and what other people write, but please, start to behave like a member of a sentient spiecies and start to answer in a meritorhic way, are you capable to do that, or should I consider you a separate species member, not a member of homo sapiens sapiens?

I would really appreciate if you refute my claims by yours instead of personal attacks like nationality and low IQ and what not, seems like your are the one with a closed mind who outrightly rejects everything against his will. I have maintained and will do so that M1 failed miserably in Bahawalpur trials, whether it was a deliberate ploy by Yaks or by the tank crew? A sabotage or whatever, Pakistani authorities claim it was the US who promoted the tank to Pakistan and not the other way around.

Thanks

 

[Damian]

I would really appreciate if you refute my claims by yours instead of personal attacks like nationality and low IQ and what not, seems like your are the one with a closed mind who outrightly rejects everything against his will.

And how long I was doing this, with you just ignoring logical arguments? So yeah, I have whole right to assume someone here have a low IQ and do not understand even the simplest argument from his adversary. So yeah, I am preaty much tired by people like you.

I have maintained and will do so that M1 failed miserably in Bahawalpur trials, whether it was a deliberate ploy by Yaks or by the tank crew? A sabotage or whatever, Pakistani authorities claim it was the US who promoted the tank to Pakistan and not the other way around.

If Americans do it on purpose, or crew ----ed up gunnery (or even PMCS and boresighting before gunnery trail) or it was a sabotage, it is not a fail of a tank. In fact in such case, gunnery trails should be repeated several times, two exactly the same trails should be a minimum required to claim that trails were done properly. It did not happen.

As for Pakistani authorities, well seeing how determined they are to kill each other to grab a power over country, I have a serious doubts in their competence and their reliability as a sources.

Besides this look what Zaloga writes, disagreements about Pakistani nuclear program.

Bringing all puzzles in to one I have a theory.

Americans offered modern weapon systems to Pakistan in exchange for Pakistan to cancell it's nuclear program (in Americans idea it was a win-win situation for both sides, Pakistan would have modern arms to defend itself, Americans would reduce a chance of nuclear war in region and minimize a possibility of nuclear arms being sold to someone). Pakistani officials refused, and what's worse, they started to fight with each other over power, further destabilizing own country. Americans disagreed with this, and resigned to sell most advanced weapon system, maintaining sales of less advanced weapon systems for profits sake.

Meanwhile some Pakistani officials made a nice story as an excuse to hide their incompetence and the real reason why Americans cancelled the deals.

Theory? Yes, but a very reasonable one if we look at sources you provides Dazzler.

What is more important, at the time of these "tests", tank was in service for several years allready, and all eventual teething problems of a new design were long time ago rectified and improved. So yeah, the whole story is fishy, damn fishy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In those vids not a single shot was missed, Anyone who witness even small arm fire at range will say the same ..

 

[Dazzler]

And how long I was doing this, with you just ignoring logical arguments? So yeah, I have whole right to assume someone here have a low IQ and do not understand even the simplest argument from his adversary. So yeah, I am preaty much tired by people like you.



If Americans do it on purpose, or crew ----ed up gunnery (or even PMCS and boresighting before gunnery trail) or it was a sabotage, it is not a fail of a tank. In fact in such case, gunnery trails should be repeated several times, two exactly the same trails should be a minimum required to claim that trails were done properly. It did not happen.

As for Pakistani authorities, well seeing how determined they are to kill each other to grab a power over country, I have a serious doubts in their competence and their reliability as a sources.

Besides this look what Zaloga writes, disagreements about Pakistani nuclear program.

Bringing all puzzles in to one I have a theory.

Americans offered modern weapon systems to Pakistan in exchange for Pakistan to cancell it's nuclear program (in Americans idea it was a win-win situation for both sides, Pakistan would have modern arms to defend itself, Americans would reduce a chance of nuclear war in region and minimize a possibility of nuclear arms being sold to someone). Pakistani officials refused, and what's worse, they started to fight with each other over power, further destabilizing own country. Americans disagreed with this, and resigned to sell most advanced weapon system, maintaining sales of less advanced weapon systems for profits sake.

Meanwhile some Pakistani officials made a nice story as an excuse to hide their incompetence and the real reason why Americans cancelled the deals.

Theory? Yes, but a very reasonable one if we look at sources you provides Dazzler.

What is more important, at the time of these "tests", tank was in service for several years allready, and all eventual teething problems of a new design were long time ago rectified and improved. So yeah, the whole story is fishy, damn fishy.

I dont indulge in politics nor do i like dictators but fact remains a fact that M1 failed in hitting targets, engine and transmission broke down mid way, and lastly, it was tested for few months not just once or twice, same was with contemporary candidates (Type-85IIM failed initially, even UD and AK struggled in Thar desert region). There is no shame for an export M1 failing the harshest terrain in both India and Pakistan combined.

 

[bose]

All cooked up stories, USA went back on sale becuse of its differences with Pakistan on its nuclear ambition then... Pakistan on its part floated the madeup story once they knew they are not getting the toy...

 

[Dazzler]

In those vids not a single shot was missed, Anyone who witness even small arm fire at range will say the same ..